Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Seagoon on October 05, 2006, 11:23:41 PM
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Alright I'll admit this is partially Seagoon venting...
I started off the day reading an email update from a missionary who lives with his family in a village in a Muslim nation [I am not allowed to tell you were.] He has lived there for several years. Before he arrived they had no electricity or clean water or medical facilities or school. Since he has been there, he managed to get a pump with a rudimentary but effective filter installed, they have a clinic visited by a medical missionary on semi-regular basis, and he and his wife have established a school. They still do not have electricity. The villagers have suffered enormous persecution for their faith over the years, if I told you how, you might be able to guess the nation, so I'll let it go at that. The point is, in a material sense they have nothing, their government and most of their countrymen wish they didn't exist, and yet they do not complain about their lot, do not feel they have less than they deserve and while they don't enjoy persecution, they are by and large happy. I know of several similar stories.
Then I had to do about an hour and a half driving, during which time I flipped between news stations and talk radio. The overarching theme was one of continuous whining. Here were people from the richest and most free nation on earth constantly complaining about their economy, their healthcare, their politicians, their jobs, etc. I couldn't help but be struck by the contrast, between their life in the village and ours in the USA.
* They have to deal with constant persecution, we haven't suffered a major terrorist attack in 5 years... but we are the ones constantly complaining either about not being safe or what being safe requires and never stop to realize that there are people out there who have never been safe from attack for their entire lives, and never will be
* They live under a government that does nothing to help them, wishes them harm and which they have no say in and cannot effect or change, we live in a Republic where we have the opportunity to change the administration every 4 years via a peaceful organized and heavily monitored voting process and where entitlement programs make up the largest part of the budget... and yet we are the ones who constantly compare our leaders to "Hitler" and act as though we were the ones living under a brutal dictatorship
* The only healthcare they get is rudimentary and provided via donated assistance from this country and could be permanently terminated at any moment... We have the highest standard of healthcare on earth and yet we act as though we're hopelessly hard done by because there are still a few diseases out there we can't yet cure.
* They have a subsistence economy and live hand to mouth, if you can't get it out of the ground by your own sweat, you don't have it. None of them have even seen a flush toilet. The poorest members of our society live like kings by comparison, and our economy is constantly improving, our consumption growing and our technology leaping ahead. Yet to listen to the conversation in the media, you'd think we are only a few steps away from needing the UN to ship rice to us while Sally Struthers asks in Swedish "Can't you do more to help these poor starving Americans???"
It seems to me that we have become like the spoiled child sitting in a room amidst an ocean of toys and screaming "I have nothing to play with!"
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And damned proud of it!
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A whine about whining has been recorded.
They way I figure it, the reason why the US kicked so much bellybutton was because it was built by people that weren't satisfied with living in a ****hole with no standard of living.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
They way I figure it, the reason why the US kicked so much bellybutton was because it was built by people that weren't satisfied with living in a ****hole with no standard of living.
Hell that's the story of human evolution.
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Yes Seagoon, you are a spoiled nation.
But fear not! Big Daddy Canada will still help you, and love you like you were our very own, even though you are the red headed step child.
Just make sure you keep letting us build Fords, Chev's, Chryslers...keep feeding us other stuff to. We need them to make you feel inferior.
Oh, and please stop trying to send Celine Dion back. She's yours now, we got rid of her fair and square!
RTR
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Hell that's the story of human evolution.
Really? How's Africa faired so far, being the birthplace of civilization?
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Hi Thrawn,
Originally posted by Thrawn
A whine about whining has been recorded.
They way I figure it, the reason why the US kicked so much bellybutton was because it was built by people that weren't satisfied with living in a ****hole with no standard of living.
There is nothing wrong with a desire to improve one's standard of living, or prosper, or hand on the benefits of one's labor to one's children and hope that they continue to prosper. What we appear to have lost entirely, however, is virtues like gratitude and contentment.
For instance, in by gone years after one had prospered or come through a crisis the nation would respond with thanksgiving. Today it seems we never bother to be thankful for what we have, or what good providences have been granted us, all we do is whine about what's wrong whether those wrongs are real or imagined and complain that we always deserve more and better than we have. The glass isn't full to the very tippy top and why should I be grateful for anything? Its always less than I should have in any event.
For instance, how many articles do we see where the writer is thankful unemployment is low and falling? All we hear are that the plentiful jobs aren't good enough, etc.
If I encounter a person who is never happy, thankful, content, satisfied or grateful, I do not do well as a counselor to assume that person is "well" at heart. You ask me, the nation or at very least the elites and the chattering class in our media, is also spiritually sick at heart. Feel free to convince me that I'm wrong, this is not an issue where I want to be right.
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Originally posted by FUNKED1
Hell that's the story of human evolution.
Heh, I know that was just to get under someone's skin.
;)
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Originally posted by ByeBye
Really? How's Africa faired so far, being the birthplace of civilization?
Africa is not the birth place of civilization.
Its the birth place of the species.
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Yes. We are spoiled and selfish. We've no corner on the market. Just a prominent storefront.
Regards,
hap
p.s. "The Compendium to the Social Doctrine of the Church" came out in fall of 2005. Amazing amazing, wonderful, and amazing. Seagoon, if you've not read it, I'll send you one.
It's as radical and divine as is God's charity.
Regards,
hap
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My little brother's moved to the US about 4 years ago. He wasn't in the same situation as you've described, Seagoon, but what he knew up to then was nothing easy..
In one of the French riots threads I described some things on topic, and at some point Dago said it all stank of lack of self respect.
That was true, and even at the time of the events I described, I knew it, and surely everyone involved knew it too, but they'd accepted it like feeble little sheep, lemmings with no spine to endure the upwards effort of improving their conditions, by doing nothing less than their best.
Before moving to the US, he had nothing, and was more or less sitting on the fence, between that lack of self respect, and pride and wisdom of knowing better than to just go that path of least resistance.
Now he's had long enough to aclimatize to the US completely, andmakes 2.5k a month on some semi-entrepreneurship, and has nearly given up his studies in marketing because "math is too hard". Apparently he's managed to get stuck before even pre-calculus.. everything else is done, it's all he needs to do before the last stretch to his diplomas.
He spends all his earnings in fashion and clubbing, text messages and bank overdrafts.
When I get back, I'm going to kick his sorry ass...
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Originally posted by ByeBye
Really? How's Africa faired so far, being the birthplace of civilization?
Seems its gone through the cycle just like we will.
Rise to greatness, peak, and then then into decline.
Funny. Now that Im thinking about it. You can almost trace the spread of humanity by making note of the order in which nations, or areas of the world which have turned great
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Civilization bounces around the planet. While the people are working hard to create such a civilization its a powerhouse...once accomplished and they sit down to take a break, it falls apart, and moves over a continent.
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you have just described entropy. the no God types would have you believe that entropy does not exist.
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Originally posted by Pongo
Its the birth place of the species.
really? says who?
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Originally posted by moot
My little brother's moved to the US about 4 years ago. He wasn't in the same situation as you've described, Seagoon, but what he knew up to then was nothing easy..
In one of the French riots threads I described some things on topic, and at some point Dago said it all stank of lack of self respect.
That was true, and even at the time of the events I described, I knew it, and surely everyone involved knew it too, but they'd accepted it like feeble little sheep, lemmings with no spine to endure the upwards effort of improving their conditions, by doing nothing less than their best.
Before moving to the US, he had nothing, and was more or less sitting on the fence, between that lack of self respect, and pride and wisdom of knowing better than to just go that path of least resistance.
Now he's had long enough to aclimatize to the US completely, andmakes 2.5k a month on some semi-entrepreneurship, and has nearly given up his studies in marketing because "math is too hard". Apparently he's managed to get stuck before even pre-calculus.. everything else is done, it's all he needs to do before the last stretch to his diplomas.
He spends all his earnings in fashion and clubbing, text messages and bank overdrafts.
When I get back, I'm going to kick his sorry ass...
driving a cab is a perfectly acceptable occupation and potentially a springboad to other careers. what makes you think he might not do well? he could end up with a string of cabs and others driving for him. remember this is the land of opportunity and chance favors the bold. you may come to learn that your baby brother will be the salvation for your whole family and make you all Americans.....oh the humanity.
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Yes, what you said in this last post is true, but that's not his case...
He's going all soft and potato-couch stupid with all the ease and comforts of living in the US. He's not milking all the opportunity for all it's worth.
He's on his way to being that no working at work guy, that's more aware of trite little entertainments, putting short term leisure before health and achievement.
He isn't being bold at all. That job of his only makes sufficient profits when it finds stupid customer borderline scams.. car salesman tactics. He sells cellphones.
He's sidetracking a solid commerce diploma to avoid being bold and owning those math classes, for some improvised job with no long term (or medium, as far as I can tell) guarantee.
Should he go down, likely as it is, I'll be there to kick his bellybutton to the top. After that he's on his own.
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When you let women vote and hold office you get a womanly country. I bet that women are treated differently in those countries you describe eh?
No big deal really but don't allow women to run your society and then complain that it has become to womanly.
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
When you let women vote and hold office you get a womanly country.
lazs
And when you don't, you get the middle east
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Originally posted by Sixpence
And when you don't, you get the middle east
Or America pre European.
the indian hunted and fished all day
paid no taxes
and the women did all the work
and the white man thought he could improve on this
;)
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Originally posted by lukster
Or America pre European.
the indian hunted and fished all day
paid no taxes
and the women did all the work
and the white man thought he could improve on this
;)
Seems like they shared the workload, they were not hunting and fishing for sport
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Seems like they shared the workload, they were not hunting and fishing for sport
I'm sure that line was used quite often to their squaws. ;)
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Originally posted by storch
Originally posted by Pongo
Its the birth place of the species.
really? says who?
If you believe in evolution and the fossil record, the scientists say Africa. If you believe the Garden of Eden story, then the theologians/priests say Africa. Finding people who DON'T say the species started in Africa is a bit challenging, it ain't just a secular idea.
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Seagoon, it is interesting you brought this up. There is a new fad in religion, one that states it's good to accumulate and strive for material things, to spoil ourselves. Do you agree with this?
And to be honest, I can't remember where I read it, but it was recently
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Originally posted by Sixpence
Seagoon, it is interesting you brought this up. There is a new fad in religion, one that states it's good to accumulate and strive for material things, to spoil ourselves. Do you agree with this?
And to be honest, I can't remember where I read it, but it was recently
I don't think that's new Sixpence.
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Hi Sixpence,
Originally posted by Sixpence
Seagoon, it is interesting you brought this up. There is a new fad in religion, one that states it's good to accumulate and strive for material things, to spoil ourselves. Do you agree with this?
And to be honest, I can't remember where I read it, but it was recently
I'm not sure, but you are probably referring to the "Health and Wealth" movement.
Health and Wealth or the "Word of Faith" movement as it is sometimes called, came out of American Pentecostalism and has become tremendously popular. It even has its own television network - TBN - where Health and Wealth preachers like Benny Hinn, Kenneth Haggin, Paul and Jan Crouch, Kenneth Copeland, and so on. Their television shows emphasize a "give to get message", that lures the gullible into sending them money under the pretence that the giver is "planting a seed" that will in due time produce a huge harvest of money from God. Needless to say, the only people getting rich are these false prophets.
The Word of Faith movement basically states that faith is a power, and that by the power of positive confession we can change the universe. They teach that God wants us to all be wealthy and healthy all the time, and that the only thing that stops us from attaining that goal is a lack of faith on our part. As such the movement itself has more in common, with gnostic cults like Christian Science than orthodox Christianity. Unfortunately the message strikes a cord with man's fallen desires, we want money and health and so a religion that tells us that it has key to having both all the time tends to resonate.
The Christian faith however, does not teach that God wants us to be healthy and wealthy all the time, in fact, it emphasizes that it is in the crucible in times of adversity that we grow most spiritually, and that following Christ involves self-denial and inevitably suffering on this side of eternity: As Christ Himself put it, "Then He said to them all, "If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me." (Luke 9:23) While God can and does heal, and we are encouraged to pray to that end, sometimes it is not best for us or for His glory if we are healed. Surely, there was never a Christian whose faith was stronger than that of the Apostle Paul and yet scripture tells us that God answered one of his prayers for relief from suffering with a definite "no."
"Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong." (2 Cor. 12:7-9)
Paul knew that God uses all things for the ultimate good of his people, and understood that even suffering and tribulation can work to the good of the Christian and form the kind of character and perseverence that truly adorns a persons profession of faith, therefore he wrote: "And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope." (Romans 5:3-5)
By contrast, the Word of Faith movement makes health and wealth into an all consuming idol, and encourages what is essentially a shallow and unbiblical religion of greed. It shouldn't surprise us that the age of spoiled brat behavior would develop a religious arm as well.
I have no problem calling the "health and wealth movement" a false gospel, and blight on the Christian faith, and several unified declarations produced by evangelicals have done the same, for instance, the recently produced "Together for the Gospel" Statement included the following declaration:
We affirm that our only sure and confident hope is in the sure and certain promises of God. Thus, our hope is an eschatological hope, grounded in our confidence that God will bring all things to consummation in a manner that will bring greatest glory to his own name, greatest preeminence to his Son, and greatest joy for his redeemed people.
We deny that we are to find ultimate fulfillment or happiness in this world, or that God's ultimate purpose is for us to find merely a more meaningful and fulfilling life in this fallen world. We further deny that any teaching that offers health and wealth as God's assured promises in this life can be considered a true gospel.
The following summaries of the origins and problems of the Word of Faith movement including profiles of the "main characters" presume that the reader is familiar with what orthodox Christianity teaches, but I'll list 'em anyway in the hope that they might be useful to somebody out there:
What's Wrong with the Faith Movement (part 1) (http://www.equip.org/free/DC755-1.pdf)
Freedom From the Faith Movement (http://www.equip.org/free/DP061.pdf)
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I seem to recall a certain Martin Luther having a similar problem with the Catholic church selling "indulgences".
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I agree, adversity can build character.
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This guy is quite a hoot to listen to.
http://www.revike.org/
shamus
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quote:
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Originally posted by Pongo
Its the birth place of the species.
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Originally posted by storch
really? says who?
Louis, Mary, and Richard Leakey, Don Johanson, Zeresenay Alemseged, Will Harcourt-Smith, Fred Spoor, Bernard Wood, and many others in the paleoanthropological community.
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Originally posted by lazs2
When you let women vote and hold office you get a womanly country. I bet that women are treated differently in those countries you describe eh?
No big deal really but don't allow women to run your society and then complain that it has become to womanly.
lazs
Don't put us in charge of your military and make us mad either. if you do its a toss up what is coming first, the hormones, or the nukes, take your pick, both are deadly :)
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BTW - Sixpence, several other religions aside from Christianity have developed unorthodox spin-offs devoted to health and wealth. For instance, there is a fast-growing form of Buddhism called Nichiren Shoshu that assures its followers that embracing its teachings will lead them to health and wealth.
For instance if you thought the TBN televangelists preachers made insane and grandiose claims, check out what the official Nicheren Shoshu US website, for instance, proclaims:
Nichiren Daishonin expounds in His teachings the One True Way to attain absolute and unwavering good fortune whereby all the people are able to fundamentally overcome the basic universal sufferings of being born, of old age, sickness and death as well as doubts and disillusionments that plague mankind.
With strong commitment and a firm determination to make advancement in one's progress toward faith in the Daishonin's True Law, every believer, without exception, will be able to purify one's life, maintain both spiritual and physical health, bring joy to one's family, enrich one's life, and above all, transform all of one's misfortunes into good fortune, and thereby achieve true happiness. Likewise, nations currently besieged with racial strife or those continually tormented by civil wars will be able to bring about true peace and prosperity to their beloved homeland.
Nichiren Shoshu's greatest salesman and proselytizer in Japan, Josei Toda, for instance proclaimed:
When I meet you, I don't ask: "Are you keeping faith?" The reason is that I take your shakubuku for granted. What I really want to ask you is how your business is, whether you are making money, and if you are healthy. Only when all of you receive divine benefits do I feel happy. A person who says "I keep faith; I conduct shakubuku" when he is poor - I don't consider him my pupil. Your faith has only one purpose: to improve your business and family life. Those who talk about "faith" and do not attend to their business are sacrilegious. Business is a service to the community. I will expel those of you who do nothing but shakubuku without engaging in business.
How can we live happily in this world and enjoy life? If anyone says he enjoys life without being rich and even when he is sick - he is a liar. We've got to have money and physical vigor, and underneath all we need is life force. This we cannot get by theorizing or mere efforts as such. You can't get it unless you worship a gohonzon...It may be irreverent to use this figure of speech, but a gohonzon is a machine that makes you happy. How to use this machine? You conduct five sittings of prayer in the morning and three sittings in the evening and shakubuku ten people. Let's make money and build health and enjoy life to our hearts' content before we die!"
(Kiyoaki Murata, Japan's New Buddhism, pp.107-8)
Incidently the term Shakubaku, means "break and flatten" and refers to the Nichiren Shoshu proselytization method in the 1950s which was agressive to say the least.
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Originally posted by Seagoon
Incidently the term Shakubaku, means "break and flatten" and refers to the Nichiren Shoshu proselytization method in the 1950s which was agressive to say the least.
explain further please, this sounds like it could be amusing.
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Hi Pooh,
Originally posted by Pooh21
explain further please, this sounds like it could be amusing.
Nah, not really amusing. Here's a description of Shakubuku as it was practiced in Japan:
Until the early 1960's the literal translation of shakubuku, "to break and flatten," was a reasonably accurate description of the proselyting process. On occasion Gakkai members would surround a home and make noise until one family member agreed to join. Or they would belabor a mark with argument and exhortation for hours on end. Sometimes threats of divine punishment were used: dire injuries and calamities might be predicted as the cost of resistance to the True Religion; a child's illness or death might be traced to the parents' heretical beliefs. In such instances the "fear of punishment in a mind weakened and made receptive by hours of pressure" could lead to the collapse of the subject's critical faculties and intellectual defenses, and to his acquiescing in the demands of the proselyters.
(James W. White, Sokagakkai and Mass Society, p.82)
(Sokagakkai was the political movement in Japan associated with Nichiren Choshu belief - in most countries outside of the USA religion and politics are inextricably connected)
The debate over Shakubuku is still going on in the Nichiren community. The method of proselytizing preferred in Nichiren is currently less aggressive and physical, but still pretty similar to Jehovah's Witness methodologies. It emphasizes refuting and demolishing the perspectives beliefs and Nichiren Choshu has a reputation for being particularly nasty towards other forms of Buddhism. Some therefore, are calling for a switch to a less confrontational form of witnessing called shoju or "persuasion." There is even a "reform" movement calling for this.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
A whine about whining has been recorded.
They way I figure it, the reason why the US kicked so much bellybutton was because it was built by people that weren't satisfied with living in a ****hole with no standard of living.
Hmmm did you miss the point regarding the government they must live under?
Did you miss the point that these people are perhaps just happy to still be alive at the end of each day, or the rise of each sun?
Think the entire point of Seagoons post is missed or being ignored when I see comments like this.
When your government has set out to deprive you of everything including your life. When you are not allowed weapons to defend yourself or your family. ??
How you gonna kick, and what you gonna kick?
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Originally posted by storch
really? says who?
yours and everyone elses DNA
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bah they have all been wrong before. DNA? you mean the method of verification by which oj simpsom was found not guilty?
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I believe the health and wealth through faith bit usually involves sending someone else your money so that you can be healthy and wealthy. The televangelists fall back on a line out of the bible to the effect that for every dollar you give to God's church, he will return it to you 100-fold....obviously I'm paraphrasing their interpretation. I think the bible actually was talking about deeds, not a cash return on your dollar. The funny parts of the whole thing is that there are so many folks that are willing to try to buy their way into Heaven and so many folks that will help by letting you send your money to them.