Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Halo on October 11, 2006, 12:16:45 AM
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After all the other gun threads, you knew this was coming: bayonets, smart or dumb move for home defense?
In accessorizing my favorite gun, the M1 carbine, I came across ... bayonets. Hmmm. Having never owned a true military combat gun before, I was nevertheless taken aback at the idea of putting a bayonet on my M1.
Then I thought, why not? Not at the firing range, not anywhere else in public, but in the home, why not?
I found an M4 bayonet at a local gun show. Brought it home, and it was easy to affix to the M1. Clicked right on, just like the movies.
Looks like all business. Very serious. No fooling around. One objection to long guns for home defense, even carbines or short shotguns, is an intruder can grab the barrel easier than a handgun barrel.
A bayonet surely would make that much more iffy.
Psychologically, the bayonet freaks me out. I assume it would have a worse effect on any intruder. Just another whole level of deterrence.
Makes me uneasy to see bayonets anywhere, even pics and movies, because they imply that primitive bloody hand to hand combat is near.
Couple gun threads advocate bayonet on home defense combat gun. Makes sense to me. I have my M4 bayonet mounted (and sheathed -- quick and easy to remove) on my M1 carbine.
I think if I lived on a farm or ranch with critters around, I'd be tempted to carry the M1 carbine with the bayonet attached. Overkill? Maybe. But more important, maybe not.
On the one hand it looks goofy, like some dweeb going for macho. On the other hand, it ups the defensive ante.
Okay, so have you ever for any non military or non law enforcement reason had a gun with a bayonet mounted on it? Does it seem like a good idea in any circumstances, including kept in a closet for home defense?
Have you ever used a bayonet or wished you have one?
Or do you think no home defense gun should ever have a bayonet?
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I'm starting to wonder if you are about to open a gun shop or something?
I'd go for the butter knife myself.
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I'd rather have a machete or Bowie knife.
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Naw, no gun shop. But the more I think I know about guns, and the more I research them, the more I realize I don't know.
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nothing like the spirit of the cold blue steel.
I know of a few instances of people getting killed by bayonets in training because they got clumsy. That would be your downside.
On the upside, there are few things that command attention more than a fixed blade. Just like a laser floating on the chest of the sound of a racking 12 guage.
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A long gun is not the smart choice for home defense so I don't think I'd condone adding a bayonet to it. A handgun, probably a .45 is overall the best choice for several reasons including the one you mentioned, a long gun can be grabbed. Biggest problem though is it's tough to swing a rifle around...especially if it's a foot and a half longer due to a bayonet. Another big problem is that any rifle will penetrate several walls if fired, not a great idea if your kid is sleeping in the next room. The way I see it, I'm not interested in scaring or intimidating an intruder. If an intruder gets into my house my only plan is to take him down and the best and safest choice is a .45. It's easy to handle, dosn't penetrate walls (much), has good close range stopping power and has multiple shots. If I want to intimidate someone I can always rack the slide, that's guaranteed to get his attention. In a dark house in the middle of the night it's a scary sound.
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Having no real experience with the M1 or how long the bayonet is, if you can navigate through your house it's be fine. Like you said, i'm sure it'd be a good psychological weapon and if you were to run out of ammunition you still have a back up that is a good little ways from you.
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Why an M1 carbine for home defense? Obvious disadvantages are length, relatively poor stopping power, and overpenetration. If you're going to go with a long gun, a 12 guage seems like it would be better as it's got more stopping power and shot is less likely to overpenetrate. But any handgun would be just as effective. The primary advantage of a rifle/carbine is its long range... things that aren't really needed in home defense.
A bayonet on a shotgun could have its uses for home defense, though. :)
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A Mosberg 590 with a fixed bayonet has got a wicked look and some serious deterance value... no offense Halo but the M1 carbine even with a bayonet is cuddly in comparison.
Only thing is, I wouldn't pay the $200 that the bayonet costs in NZ.
(http://www.guncity.co.nz/site/images/66194.jpg)
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"The cold steel! They don't like it up 'em!" - LCpl Jones
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That has to be a line from Dad's Army
Haven't seen it in years but still one of my all time fav programmes :)
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home defense?
FLASHBANGS baby.
pop one every 4 seconds and nobody is touching you.
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A torch (flashlight), or laser attached in the same place would be far more practical wouldn't it?
I mean, if it comes to the point where the bayonet actually becomes a useful tool for home defence, rather than 10 inches of hassle, the weapon it is affixed to has obviously proved to be a miserable failure.
If it comes to that point, your best bet is to ditch the longarm and use the bayonet as a fighting knife.
A brilliant light in the face, or a red dot proclaiming your lack of the need for a split second to aim would scare me a lot more than a bayonet would.
It would also make me easier to see and hit.
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I agree, a bayonet on a long arm wouldn't be ideal in a home defence situation, but I can still see a use for it.
If you shoot first and then use the bayonet when the threat is lying dead on the floor it may be an aid in trying to convince the cops that you tried to use equal or at least a minimum force (say a bayonet wound to the gut) but were then forced to use lethal force.
It would just be another twist on the scenario of putting a round into the intruder then one into the ceiling.
I know the concept sounds warped, but consider this: in NZ, where in law, there's no such thing as justifiable homicide and if you kill in self defence you had better not be better armed than the other guy cause if you are then a manslaughter trial is in your future.
It wont make any difference whether it's one, two or three, scrambled brained, meth addicted, machete/knife/bat/iron bar armed home invaders that smashed their way into your home, if you shoot them, even if you have absolutely no choice in order to protect your family and yourself... your in a world of chit.
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Originally posted by Excel1
A Mosberg 590 with a fixed bayonet has got a wicked look and some serious deterance value... no offense Halo but the M1 carbine even with a bayonet is cuddly in comparison.
Only thing is, I wouldn't pay the $200 that the bayonet costs in NZ.
(http://www.guncity.co.nz/site/images/66194.jpg)
I got one of those(without bayonet). I think the racking noise alone would be enough to make anyone run, long before it had to belch any fire. As for it going through walls and such, you just gotta get the right kinda ammo. 8 shot I hear is ideal for home defense because it won't pass through walls plus it has an insane amount of tiny pellets in it. I know a .45 handgun isn't something to laugh about. But for me, I can't think of anything that'll put the fear of God into someone more than that monster pointed at them.
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The Ramones sang a song about the mossberg 590.
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excel... don't you have a jury trial in NZ?
Wouldn't a jury of your peers find you innocent no matter what injustice the law calls for?
lazs
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I think the thoughtful home defender should ideally have a little folding bayonett-ette on the end of a handgun for optimal home defense. You know how when you run out of ammo you throw the gun at the bad guy? Well, instead of that, you unfold your bayonette-ette and charge the bad guy with this little pee-bringer. Then, if the bad guy doesn't surrender, you do a little sidewalk surgery on him.
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Seriously folks. If the situation gets to the point you NEED a bayonet you have more serious issues to contend with. If your going to have a gun in the home for defense, learn to hit your target with the first shot and the whole notion of a blade becomes moot.
I keep my Remington 870 loaded with 4 rounds of #4 Pheasant loads with an additional 5 rounds in a stock mounted carrier. I don't expect to need any more than that, and racking that first round into the chamber is the only warning anyone will get from me.
I don't expect my home to be invaded by an infantry squad wearing body armor and kevlar helmets. It'll be 1 or 2 punks with their basketball jerseys, and pants down around their knees, trying to sneak through a window.
Don't over complicate stuff, keep it simple, and you'll be fine.:aok
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Originally posted by Hornet33
I don't expect my home to be invaded by an infantry squad wearing body armor and kevlar helmets. It'll be 1 or 2 punks with their basketball jerseys, and pants down around their knees, trying to sneak through a window.
Don't over complicate stuff, keep it simple, and you'll be fine.:aok
Actually, there was a case in the 80's in Southern California where a police swat team in body armor and kevlar helmets knocked down a door in the middle of the night without anouncing. The guy in the house was sleeping, heard the noise in the dark and grabbed his handgun and was blown away by the cops. Turned out the cops were working on a tip from a crminal informant who apparently just picked a street address at random. Brings up the question, what would you do if your door gets knocked in in the middle of the night and a bunch of big dark shapes come charging in yelling that they're the police? You gonna grabe that moseburg and open fire or you gonna believe them?
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If you ever have to produce a bayonet or use it for home defence then you are in a lot of trouble, A bayonet/knife looks menacing as it's supposed to be, but god forbid the day you actually have to try and use it.
That'll be the day you find out a lot more about yourself than what you thought previously...
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Originally posted by Mace2004
Actually, there was a case in the 80's in Southern California where a police swat team in body armor and kevlar helmets knocked down a door in the middle of the night without anouncing. The guy in the house was sleeping, heard the noise in the dark and grabbed his handgun and was blown away by the cops. Turned out the cops were working on a tip from a crminal informant who apparently just picked a street address at random. Brings up the question, what would you do if your door gets knocked in in the middle of the night and a bunch of big dark shapes come charging in yelling that they're the police? You gonna grabe that moseburg and open fire or you gonna believe them?
So there was "A" case where this happened. I honestly expect to be struck by lightning before a SWAT team breaks down my door by mistake. Besides, if a SWAT team did enter my home, what difference would having a bayonet on my rifle or shotgun do for me other than get me killed. Or are you advocating having high powed rifles loaded with AP ammo for home defense?
Like I said, keep it simple. I choose to use my shotgun with game loads for several reasons. 1-the area around where I live in does have a fairly high crime rate. There are allot of gang bangers around here and if my home was broken into it's more than likely that's what I would be going up against. 2-I live in an appartment so over penetration is a concern. Light game loads will not over penetrate the walls in this place to the extent that I have to worry about seriously injuring someone upstairs, or next door, but if I get a shot off at close range, center mass, I will blow a barn door into someones chest. The shot spread from my 20" smooth bore slug barrel is only about 1 1/2" at 20 feet. I expect to be much closer than that if I have to use it. I also have my Kimber 1911A1 .45 as a backup, but I would grab my shotgun first.
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Why an M1 carbine for home defense? Obvious disadvantages are length, relatively poor stopping power, and overpenetration.
It actually has as much energy at 100 yards as a 357 has at the muzzle, and hollow points make it even better from a stopping standpoint. However, overpenetration is certainly an issue, especially with ball.
I think the stopping power rumor came from Korea where they were being used like a Garand at ranges of 300 yards or more. You can find veteran opinion that goes both ways with the carbine.
Charon
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If you have at least 3 other family members, make sure that they all have bayonetted rifles too. That way if your house is ever invaded by cavalry at least you can form square to repel them.
Just sayin'.....
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blades are much better for home defense they make much less noise so the nabors dont call the cops once the perp is on the deck and screaming a simple hand over mouth and slice and its all quite again. then there is no explaining to do. you just need to dig a hole.
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i think landmines are the best defence personally.
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Originally posted by Ball
i think landmines are the best defence personally.
true, but they are very noisy and they ruin the lawn.
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I think the stopping power rumor came from Korea where they were being used like a Garand at ranges of 300 yards or more. You can find veteran opinion that goes both ways with the carbine.
The lack of power of the .30 carbine rumor was propagated for the same reason as the lack of penetrating power of the .45 Thompson Sub Machine Gun.
In both cases, they used the gun in ways it was not meant to be used, and then elaborated the extent of what actually happened.
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I can't belive we are talking about using bayonets for home defence lol, I've thought of this thread and realised that I was an idiot to even take this seriously ! I'm no home defence expert but I do have a little bit of experience in the use of bayonets and so I will defer to the home defence experts on this one.;)
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Originally posted by Hornet33
So there was "A" case where this happened. I honestly expect to be struck by lightning before a SWAT team breaks down my door by mistake. Besides, if a SWAT team did enter my home, what difference would having a bayonet on my rifle or shotgun do for me other than get me killed. Or are you advocating having high powed rifles loaded with AP ammo for home defense?
The point I was making was simply the irony of what you said and the fact that bizarre things like this do, occasionally, happen. The fact that this was the exception (i.e., very rare) actually supports your point.
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OK I get it now:D I wasn't quite awake when I read your first response. Color me stupid on this one:aok
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Originally posted by Bluefish
If you have at least 3 other family members, make sure that they all have bayonetted rifles too. That way if your house is ever invaded by cavalry at least you can form square to repel them.
Just sayin'.....
:rofl
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The rule of thumb in the infantry is if you hear "fix bayonets" you are either having or about to have a very bad day.
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Originally posted by lazs2
excel... don't you have a jury trial in NZ?
Wouldn't a jury of your peers find you innocent no matter what injustice the law calls for?
lazs
Yep, but you would still pay a high price
You would get a jury trial 6 to 12 months after the event and by the time the jury had acquitted you would have spent tens of thousands of dollars on your defence and your life would have been turned on its head. Peoples lives have been ruined just because the state chose to make an example of them to act as a deterrence to others doing the same, and also to reinforce that under the law you do not have the right to take a life or even injure someone in self defence unless it conforms with the law's very narrow interpretation of what constitutes self defence.
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We've talked a lot about gun choice in other threads. This one is about bayonets. So this is primarily about whether or not to add a blade on a gun to augment home defense.
As such, the bayonet can be considered as any long blade, although so far no one has mentioned swords or spears. And like many people, I've always kept a long knife or two handy around the house just in case.
At only 3 feet long and 5 1/2 pounds, the M1 Carbine is quite manageable with a 6 1/2 inch M4 bayonet on it. Still shorter and lighter than many other rifles or shotguns.
So it's doable. And if it came down to a close enough encounter where a bad guy could consider grabbing at a gun barrel, I buy the idea not only that a bayonet would deter or punish any such impulse, but keep harm much farther away than it otherwise might be.
(quote) Have you ever used a bayonet or wished you have one? (unquote)
Most replies so far here seem to be No.
Nevertheless, I'm leaving mine on. I'm getting used to it. It's like having one more friend around. I'll never be parading around with it, but it's a comfortable partner in the closet if I ever need it.
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Make sure you stab the corpse before it stops bleeding- then you can claim you cut first before you shot. BTW, we had an Iraq war vet accosted by a teenage armed robery crew that had a shotgun, 2 pistols & a knife. He took the knife away from the girl who jumped on his back & stabbed her to death. The four brave armed boys with her ran away. He was crucified in the Atlanta paper for killing this "poor innocent teenage girl"! Hope she is settled in a nice chair in Hell now.
-MI-
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
The rule of thumb in the infantry is if you hear "fix bayonets" you are either having or about to have a very bad day.
I'm guessing the enemy is about to have a very bad day too.
British used the Bayonet when charging Argentinian trenches in the Falklands and also in street fighting in Iraq.
Must be terrifying seeing someone charge at you with a Bayonet.
http://www.thesun.co.uk/article/0,,2-2004223179,00.html