Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: MrRiplEy[H] on October 11, 2006, 01:43:58 PM
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5- Flamebaiting, trolling, or posting to incite or annoy is not allowed.
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Asteroid, dont fail me now!
:rolleyes:
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Hehe, this is just the tip of the iceberg. There are going to be so many compatibility problems due to HDCP/DRM it will make you want to scream.
It ought to really hit the stretch sometime late next year. Early adoptors of HD video equipment might find themselves in a world of hurt.
There are definately going to be 3 different HDMI specifications in the marketplace next year. And at least 2 different implementations of HDCP. There is a large amount of room for compatibility problems.
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a large metoroid would do the job just as well as an asteroid & they're about ten times more likely to be encountered
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Copy that. what about comets?
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comets are just ice and dust, all show.
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i think comets are comparativley rare, but there are several short period comets that intersect the earth's orbit. comets are also not so well put together as rocky bodies & would blow up in the atmosphere pretty high up, but that would have consequences too. the last big one of these over land, the Tunguska event, was about 100 years ago & they say the object was about 200' across & yielded an explosion similar to the largest nuclear weapons ever tested. a big comet like Hale-Bopp (about 10 miles) would own us pretty hard, but the large metoroid, afaik, is a lot better a wager.
still, what do odd have to do with wishes or prayers?
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Early adoptors of HD video equipment might find themselves in a world of hurt.
That would be me :mad: Component input only. When are we going to stop bending over and just taking it from these *******s. Forced to upgrade my perfectly good HD TV I paid $3,000 for a few years back just to use an upsampling DVD player or Blue Ray or HD DVD -- I'll just do without, thanks.
Charon
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Hehe, this is just the tip of the iceberg. There are going to be so many compatibility problems due to HDCP/DRM it will make you want to scream.
It ought to really hit the stretch sometime late next year. Early adoptors of HD video equipment might find themselves in a world of hurt.
There are definately going to be 3 different HDMI specifications in the marketplace next year. And at least 2 different implementations of HDCP. There is a large amount of room for compatibility problems.
Yep, these are the reasons I still have a CRT TV. I enjoy Home Theater and love my KEF's, but have stalled deliberately on the TV because of these issues.
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As much as I REALLY want an HD Tv right now..I thin I'll wait
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
TiVo in peril (http://reviews.cnet.com/4531-10921_7-6650194.html)
Say it aint so..
May I suggest that its not the end of the world? Its just TiVo
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I think the biggest problem with any of the HD television right now, is none (I am aware of) will tell you if the HDCP/HDMI port is upgradeable via software.
Of course, that is a bit of a problem as HDCP is supposed to be in hardware only. But, none of the manufacturers talke about being able to update the system due to changes made in the specs.
Charon, people do not understand the technology involved with HD, so they cannot know what is happening with it. As a result, they buy the stuff fully ignorant of what could happen.
Maybe one day a class action lawsuit will settle it, but that would be a bugger. It would involve fighting against some of the larger companies/groups (Sony, Microsoft, Toshiba, NEC, Disney, MPAA, RIAA,...) in the world.
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Charon, people do not understand the technology involved with HD, so they cannot know what is happening with it. As a result, they buy the stuff fully ignorant of what could happen.
When I bought the TV, DRM was't even on the radar (it was probably flying under the radar by then though -- a gleam in some accounants' and Lawyers' eyes). I decide to get an upsampling DVD player recently to replace the one that just died, started my research and had a real WTF moment. What do you mean it won't upsample through component!!! Then found out about Blue Ray and HD DVD with the "downsampling" to 480p over component. I didn't even know that recent HDMI was still up in the air.
Charon
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Charon, people do not understand the technology involved with HD, so they cannot know what is happening with it. As a result, they buy the stuff fully ignorant of what could happen.
Correct, they'd rather "impress their neighbors".
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DRM is not the mainstay of the HDMI connection. HDCP (High Defination Copy Protection) is. HDCP has been in the HD spec since day one. It has changed, evolved, changed some more, been delayed and so on, but it has always been there.
It is a complicated implemetation which basically states that everything in the chain of the HD data path must provide HDCP question and answer tags.
This is a big over simplification of what happens, but basically a DVD player would have to ask the TV if is supports HDCP (and the corresponding HD tag). If the TV does not give back the right answer, then the DVD player must only supply whatever low res image the DVD provider decided on. In some case, the DVD disc maker may have chosen to give you a blank screen through the HDMI port. In other case, you may only get a low resolution image.
Currently, that tag which controls the resolution is not being used. The committee decided to delay its implementation for a year. Once it goes into effect on the media, then the current players and TV will have to honor the flag. Of course, they currently do not.
How that situation will be dealt with is still in committee. If the tag was implemented today, no one would be able to watch a high resolution movie on a DVD (HD or BluRay) which expected that tag.
It gets even more complicated when you want to watch an HD movie on your computer. Currently, your DVD ROM drive, your video card, and monitor must support HDCP in order to play an HD content DVD in high resolution mode, once all the resolution tags are enabled in HDCP.
Fun stuff, eh?
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Is there any way to aftermarket spoof it with some sort of add on module I could plug the component cables into with an HDMI interface on the other end?
Charon
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No way to spoof it. It's in the hardware. Software cannot touch it.
HD content is not ever supposed to be delivered over component. It is only supposed to be available via the HDMI/DVI connection.
Now, converting component input to HDMI/DVI is all good. The data coming from the component path is still 480, so it will not have to pass HDCP muster.
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I was wondering about a hardware handshake from the module itself, but then I suppose you would have to do a digital to analog conversion as well, and of course the hardware would likely be illegal in some way regardless.
Charon
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There is no reason to try and spoof it. The output over the component cannot be over 480. The device delivering the content through the component connection will restrict the output to 480.
Basically, there is no way to get HD content via a component connection. HD content being defined as any video content exceeding 480 lines of resolution. HDCP prevents HD content from being delivered over anything other than HDMI/DVI connections (sans the actual broadcast in the case of HD broadcasts).
Sure, you could have a box accepting component inputs, then the box does a 3:2 pull down conversion to get to 720 and output that on HDMI/DVI. Perfectly legal to do. There are boxes on the market that do that today.
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The output over the component cannot be over 480.
Is that a physical limitation of component cabling/interface? I was under the impression I could get HD at 1080I though my cable provider via component. That's all I have on my supposedly HD "ready" TV for an input, other than composite or S-video, so I hope so at least for that.
I think I might have been confusing in stating the goal. I have an HDTV with component inputs. Future media players will require HDMI for exchanging HD video. But, what if...
The HD output from, say, a Blue Ray player is connceted via HDMI to a hardware box with an HDMI interface on one end. That interface then says "Hello, I'm a fellow HDMI system" and receives the data stream. Then, could that received digital signal signal be converted to analog component by the intermediary hardware box and then be sent out the other end to my HD-enabled TV via a seperate componet interface?
Charon
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Nope. Once the HDMI box says "Hey I can handle it!", then it goes to put it out over the component outputs, it downsamples it to 480 to do so. This is a requirement of the HDCP specification.
Technically, there is no reason why you cannot deliver up to 1080i over a component connection. It just is being disallowed via HDCP.
By the way, you bought a TV set which is "HD Ready". I believe that "HD Ready" simply means you have to add an HD tuner to receive HD broadcasts. If the set does not have an HDMI or DVI port, it cannot meet HDCP requirements, which means it cannot display HD content at resolutions higher than 480p from a DVD player, for example.
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Well, at least I'm covered by the tuner and broadcast programming then. 480p isn't all that bad, and I already have a media library of DVDs so a big FU to blue ray for a number of years to come. Somehow, I don't think there will be a rush of people looking to make the leap anytime soon. Is anybody hear really chomping at the bit to move to this technology? I don't see "that" big a difference between 480p and 1080i - I wonder about 1080p?
I can only hope this leads to a massive consumer backlash as soon as more people start to realize these problems. The TIVO hit will certainly contribute to the cause. Lets hope for a continued bumpy road with this crap :)
Charon
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There is a huige difference in the quality from 480p to 720p. Quite frankly, I think 720p looks better than 1080i.
1080p is going to take a while to be widespread. It can be had with some very expensive equipment right now, but there are not many televisions which will natively support 1080p.
I took the plunge on an HD TV, only because I got a incredible deal on it. It works fine with the DiSH HD PVR (720p), so I am content right now.
But I am watching what is happening with great interest.
By the way, anyone notice Hitachi/Maxell just developed a new 5 1/4" optical disc (not the holographic one) which can hold a terra-byte of data on one side?
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One of many reasons I'm currently assembling parts to build that MythTV box. Cool new development, since I have a Comcast digital box w/ Firewire out, I can get the local HDTV stuff that usually goes over the air without needing to buy an HDTV capture care. The FCC forced comcast to activate the firewire and offer anything that's available via ota in clean, MPEG-2 digital streaming goodness.
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Yep, over the air transmissions are not subject to HDCP. HDCP was/is only meant to be used for pre-recorded media and to prevent copying of HD content. You can record over-the-air, but none of the HD DVD (HD or BluRay) players will play it back at full resolution.
Course, MPEG-2 really sucks for HD content. When MPEG-4 is finally the norm, things will look much, much better.
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Add the latest copyright scheme to the mix....
October 10, 2006
Protect DVD-Video - A slap in the face for PC and Media Center owners
The movie industry seems determined to continue on a course where it happily erodes the rights of legitimate users, all in the name of securing profits. The latest example of this comes in the form of a DVD copy protection technology called Protect DVD-Video which actually prevents a DVD being played on a Windows PC using Windows Media Player, Windows Media Center Edition or any software players based on DirectShow.
Protect DVD-Video is the brainchild of a company called ProtectDisc. Part of the copy-protection mechanism is a non-standard UDF (Universal Disc Format) file system which results in the IFO file on the DVD (this is the file responsible for storing information on chapters, subtitles and audio tracks) appearing to the PC as being zero bytes long. ...
http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/index.php?p=114
Regards,
Sun
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Ill sit here and watch what happens when the dust settles on the HD-DVD/Blueray fight... Im in no hurry. My B&O Tv will last for another decade and give me what i need. DVD is good enough for me. The movies doesnt get any better just because they are HD.
Ill upgrade when one standard wins and a couple more generations of flat panel tvs have reached reasonable prices.
Beeing a part of early adopters/inovator of any new AV system type thing is even more expencive than beeing one of those benchmark/3d mark chasing computer geeks.... :D
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My console TV and VCR still work great.
I buy new technology when it suits me, not when it suits some corporate bigwigs.
J_A_B
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Ill sit here and watch what happens when the dust settles on the HD-DVD/Blueray fight... Im in no hurry. My B&O Tv will last for another decade and give me what i need. DVD is good enough for me. The movies doesnt get any better just because they are HD.
I have YET to see an "HDTV" have a better picture than my 27" JVC that has been calibrated. My brother has a 53" D-ILA JVC that I calibrated to get a better than mine. He more or less changed the settings and hiked up the color right after I left.
The TV I REALLY want is a 37" Widescreen Loewe Aconda (CRT). There isn't a TV under $7000 that can touch the picture quality (from Pioneer Elite on down).
Really the best bet IS to stand pat and see where the chips fall.
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Originally posted by J_A_B
My console TV and VCR still work great.
I buy new technology when it suits me, not when it suits some corporate bigwigs.
J_A_B
zOMG u console TV guys:mad: :mad: :furious (i used to be in the TV/VCR repair .biz, console meant an extra guy for the pickup & delivery) :furious :furious :furious :furious
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I have a 62" non hdtv mitsubisi tv that has a really good picture.... my plan is to keep it till all the dust settles on what standard will win and then upgrade when the prices all settle in.
Is this a good plan? I have no clue what to buy right now but enjoy DVD movies... What will be the recorder that wins out?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
I have a 62" non hdtv mitsubisi tv that has a really good picture.... my plan is to keep it till all the dust settles on what standard will win and then upgrade when the prices all settle in.
Is this a good plan? I have no clue what to buy right now but enjoy DVD movies... What will be the recorder that wins out?
lazs
Perfect plan.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
Basically, there is no way to get HD content via a component connection. HD content being defined as any video content exceeding 480 lines of resolution.
What hardware are you talking about? I watch HD via component connection every night. 1080i, no problem.
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I think Skuzzy is talking about HDMI to Component.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I think Skuzzy is talking about HDMI to Component.
Correct, this CANNOT be done.
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Do the HDCP restrictions affect DVI interface?
I have a DVI interfaced 720p LCD television with a Mac Mini (+DVB-C receiver box) attached as the content source, and regular DVD drive for now. If I get a Blu-ray or HD-DVD drive will I be able to play the content on my tv?
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History has shown that even though general consumer products will be tied with several restrictions, so far you've always been able to buy your hardware half price from China sans protection systems. They don't care about MPAA/RIAA. :D
WTG China! Err.. I hope at least.
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I just love a thread where I can understand maybe every third or fourth word.
:confused:
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Originally posted by Chairboy
I think Skuzzy is talking about HDMI to Component.
Yes, sorry for the hastily worded phrase there. It do read badly.
Although once the resolution tags go into effect next year, It just might put an end to being able to get native HD resolutions via component. Native, being the keyword. Upscaling should always be available. And older, non-tagged content will still work, just the newer stuff might not.
That is one of the many unknowns right now.
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Originally posted by Skuzzy
That is one of the many unknowns right now.
Just to add more confusion, laser based TVs (http://tinyurl.com/j63q9) are on the way.
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I ****in' hate technology.
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after that we will have plasma based tvs
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See rule #4 and #6
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Yeah, seems kinda weird.:huh
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How does a post about electronics get edited for being flamebaiting..
I read the initial post and it seemed fairly harmless... Thought it was about the latest Tivo issue?
This is kinda wierd....
Need more coffee...
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It was edited as it fell into the "a link posted, but no opinion as to why it was posted" category. I.e. it fell into the 'troll' pool.
It had nothing to do with the topic. Blame me if you must. I am the one who instructed the MP's to do away with 'link only' and/or cut-n-paste threads.
Rather than leave it up to someone to decide if the topic is appropriate, I told them to simply do it, regardless of the topic. In other words, I wanted to avoid them being called biased. They do not edit out of bias, then edit out of strict instruction with no room for gray areas.
I should have caught it myself, but I didn't.
The reason for the edits have been discussed in several other threads. Do not take this as an oppertunity to take a shot at the MP's or myself. It is strictly being offered as information.
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It's a good policy, the 'fire & forget' threads are boring anyhow.
Back on topic, I've just gotten a Hauppauge PVR-250 from a friend. Since it has onboard MPEG encoding, I might be able to try this MythTV out on an 800mhz box I have lying around. With my firewire card in it, should be an interesting experiment. Cheap HDTV PVR, here I come!
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Im really having a hard time holing off on buying a HD tv. I hook em up everyday for customers and thru my company i can get a 50" DLP phillips for 900.00 they regularly go for about 2300 :O
on a side note, a few years ago i heard of this company trying to get a new kind of dvd that was clear, im not sure if it was the holographic one but, supposedly you could put about 400 gbs per side on it. They had built special dvd player using a blue laser. I dont think its the blue ray stuff but i could be wrong