Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Yeager on October 13, 2006, 01:27:33 PM
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http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/10/13/lloyd.inquest/index.html
I figure the fog of war and all that, but I take the time to read the article anyway. Seems this poor UK news reporter was just doing his job covering a story about a war in progress when some iraqi insurgent shot him. So some other iraqi dude collects the shot up reporter (along with some other apparently wounded types) and throws him into an unmarked mini bus for a ride to the local hospital.
Of course the mini bus is converted into a giant pepper shaker by US soldiers and the wounded reporter is progressed into killed status.
But this line is the one that really had me rolling eyes:
"U.S. forces appeared to have allowed their soldiers to behave like trigger-happy cowboys in an area in which there were civilians traveling on a highway, both Iraqi and European."
What the hell is wrong with cowboys? I mean, cowboys rope cows and mend fences. They dont go to Iraq to kill innocent UK Reporters
:rolleyes: at least not any cowboys that Im aware of.
Wheres Duvall? Anyone seen Eastwood lately?
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insurgents shot him first
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Charging a man with murder in this place is like handing out speeding tickets in the indy 500.
They didn't murder anyone, Yeager. Even the article headline says that. If you were there, saw a van driving at a high rate of speed toward you...I hope you'd go out and politely try to stop it and see how it works out for ya.
Me...I'd be behind the sand bags with something fully automatic and a squad of buddies helping me.
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I juss want to know why peeps are down on teh cowboys!
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Originally posted by Yeager
I juss want to know why peeps are down on teh cowboys!
Did you watch last Sunday's game?
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Originally posted by lukster
Did you watch last Sunday's game?
I'm guessing he wasn't.
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If they were a proper army, they would have had a properly marked ambulance. Thats the breaks when you conduct geurilla warfare.
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Innocent until proven guilty. PERIOD!
http://www.defendthedefenders.org/
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See you can't murder someone at home for killing your brother. but you can go to war and kill him without being charged. Its stupid...
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Originally posted by cav58d
Innocent until proven guilty. PERIOD!
http://www.defendthedefenders.org/
Bhahaha. Pitiful site. A murderer is a murderer. An invader is an invader.
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
insurgents shot him first
Stangely though, if you go and shoot someone. Then someone else shoots them and thier bullet is the one that kills them, then they are the one charged with murder.
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Location: Finland
Originally posted by Grendel
Bhahaha. Pitiful site. A murderer is a murderer. An invader is an invader.
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Originally posted by Grendel
Bhahaha. Pitiful site. A murderer is a murderer. An invader is an invader.
Im sorry, but here in the United States we give our soldiers the benefit of the doubt, but thats got to be pretty difficult to comprehend in Finland considering your past of siding with nazis
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Now if they could just figure out a way to get a bunch of American journalists into a bus
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Yeager, somehow I get the feeling that we are losing you to the darkside.
From all the information given to us, we only know that the guy was accidentally killed in a hostile war zone. The reporter wasn't put in an ambulance, but a mini-bus. Even so, I doubt the most crack sharpshooter in all of the world could hit someone inside a bus without really knowing where they were.
The politics here are reaching near bull**** levels. I'll quote a few things if you weren't already aware.
Oxfordshire Assistant Deputy Coroner Andrew Walker said he'll be writing the director of public prosecutions to seek to bring the perpetrators to justice.
"Terry Lloyd died following a gunshot wound to the head. The evidence this bullet was fired by the Americans is overwhelming," Walker said.
The U.S. Department of Defense said its forces had followed proper rules of engagement.
A statement read by an attorney for Lloyd's widow, Lynn, said the court established that the "circumstances of his death from an American bullet whilst being ferried to hospital is a very serious war crime" and that the Marines should now stand trial.
"The evidence of how Terry Lloyd was unlawfully killed has shown that this was not, I wish to stress, a friendly fire blue on blue incident or a crossfire incident. It was a despicable, deliberate, vengeful act, particularly as it came many minutes after the end of the initial exchanges in which Mr. Lloyd had been hit by an Iraqi bullet."
Oh I miss the days when you could blatantly slap someone back into reality.
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Goto a warzone, **** happens. Unfortunate, but true.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Now if they could just figure out a way to get a bunch of American journalists into a bus
Bingo !!
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Originally posted by cav58d
Innocent until proven guilty. PERIOD!
Unless you want an excuse to invade a country. Then they are guilty by gum, evidence be damned!
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Goto a warzone, **** happens. Unfortunate, but true.
Amen.
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One would think that if you were smart enough to be a reporter and operate a word processor you could recognize a war zone and stay the hell out of a battle area.
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I know what I would say if I was a soldier. If you don't like the job i'm doing, send me home!
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Originally posted by cav58d
Innocent until proven guilty. PERIOD!
http://www.defendthedefenders.org/
OR...
You can hold them in solitary for about 5 years until they can work out what to charge them with...
Tronsky
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can't, they are US citizens.
but the .gov could do it to u:O :O :noid :noid :noid
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This is a label that has sadly stuck a bit to the Americans since the day of WW2.
Unfortunately things like that happen and keep the sticker alive.
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There whole incident has been subject to distortion and propaganda. The truth is no longer relevant.
From my reading and TV reports. Lloyd and the other three blundered into the front line and were arrested by the Iraqis. Two were put in an armed Iraqi pick up which was destroyed by American fire killing them. Lloyd and the Belgian cameraman in the TV truck were fired on by the Iraqis, wounding Lloyd. The cameraman took cover but was fired on by Americans, no doubt under the impression he was Iraqi. Lloyd was picked up by an Iraqi civilian in his minivan. Crucially he also picked wounded Iraqi soldiers.
This van was then fired on by American troops killing Lloyd and an Iraqi soldier. This is the so called 'war crime' the coroner and family is referring to. Firing on the civilian minibus. In fact the driver believes he was attacked by a helicopter. If that was true then he and the van would not have survived.
The coroner and the family obviously believe that in the fog of war you can identify everyone involved differentiate between civilians and combatants and journalists and identify which unmarked vehicles are involved and which are not.
There will be no trials or arrests. It was war. Terry Lloyd knew that. After all it wasn't his first war.
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Finland & Canada are next!
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Originally posted by cav58d
Im sorry, but here in the United States we give our soldiers the benefit of the doubt, but thats got to be pretty difficult to comprehend in Finland considering your past of siding with nazis
Cav you're nothing but a blind incult cretin.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Goto a warzone, **** happens. Unfortunate, but true.
So does that mean you and people who think the same way have no problems seeing American soldiers dragged down streets or hung on bridges?
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Goto a warzone, **** happens. Unfortunate, but true.
Amen.
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Wow,first time US troops shot someone by accident,please.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
Yeager, somehow I get the feeling that we are losing you to the darkside.
From all the information given to us, we only know that the guy was accidentally killed in a hostile war zone. .....
Yeager's point is that Cowboys, John Wayne, Roy Rogers, Gene Autry.... these are icons of virtue. The cowboy uses the code of the west to live by: Tip your hat to the ladies, help them down from tha carraige, form a posse to arrest the bad guy, protect the jail from the angry mob: This icon is not something to be sullied by the unknowing euro masses.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
Goto a warzone, **** happens. Unfortunate, but true.
It is no way to use that as an excuse to justify any action by your troops.
Malmedy Massacre, **** happens, unfotunate but true.
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Yeager's point is that Cowboys, John Wayne, Roy Rogers, Gene Autry.... these are icons of virtue. The cowboy uses the code of the west to live by: Tip your hat to the ladies, help them down from tha carraige, form a posse to arrest the bad guy, protect the jail from the angry mob: This icon is not something to be sullied by the unknowing euro masses.
(http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/staff/djdohboy/50s_applause.gif)
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Originally posted by Yeager
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/10/13/lloyd.inquest/index.html
I figure the fog of war and all that, but I take the time to read the article anyway. Seems this poor UK news reporter was just doing his job covering a story about a war in progress when some iraqi insurgent shot him.
"Murder", defined (if memory serves from the academy), is the unlawful killing of a human being or fetus with malice aforethought.
I don't see any 'mens rea' from our troops in this incident.
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I wonder if beetle ever considered becoming a UK reporter? :rofl
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Yeager's point is that Cowboys, John Wayne, Roy Rogers, Gene Autry.... these are icons of virtue. The cowboy uses the code of the west to live by: Tip your hat to the ladies, help them down from tha carraige, form a posse to arrest the bad guy, protect the jail from the angry mob: This icon is not something to be sullied by the unknowing euro masses.
I agree wholeheartedly! Cowboys are hardworking decent people, and I want to see the old western movies without this additional baggage. The reputation of cowboys should not be sullied by the behavior of US soldiers in Iraq, they are nothing alike!
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Yeager's point is that Cowboys, John Wayne, Roy Rogers, Gene Autry.... these are icons of virtue. The cowboy uses the code of the west to live by: Tip your hat to the ladies, help them down from tha carraige, form a posse to arrest the bad guy, protect the jail from the angry mob: This icon is not something to be sullied by the unknowing euro masses.
Ha!Code of the west?It's called ETHICKET,something that was arround well before all knowing US masses.
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See Rule #4
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these guys need to be brought to account for their actions..their families (reporter, camera man, translator) should at least get an explanation...
yes #### happens in a war zone.. but these people were fired upon by us troops.. they tried to flee and were shot again...
shame on the guys that did this
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Originally posted by SELECTOR
these guys need to be brought to account for their actions..their families (reporter, camera man, translator) should at least get an explanation...
yes #### happens in a war zone.. but these people were fired upon by us troops.. they tried to flee and were shot again...
shame on the guys that did this
You do realize dont you that this incident happened in 2003, that the Iraqi army troops were enemy fighting against us, and the reporter was with them dont you? He was placed in a vehicle with the Iraq army troops attempting to leave the fight when he was shot. Do you have any way to verify the troops knew this was a civilian and a reporter in the same vehicle with the Iraq troops?
Do you think allowing enemy to run off or be taken off without consequence is typical in war?
Look at all the facts, consider reality versus a TV and movie reality, and be careful in passing judgements on troops if you dont reallly know all the facts.
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Originally posted by Viking
The reputation of cowboys should not be sullied by the behavior of US soldiers in Iraq, they are nothing alike!
I suppose you have all the information about this incident and have come to a fair and impartial conclusion, based on the rules of evidence.
Looks like we may have to cowboy up and guard the jail....
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Originally posted by shakey6
hey testicle, it's our troops, btw.
unfortunate is the product of war, and unfortunately the conflict goes on.
excuse me? our troops? i didn't see any British troops involved in that shooting, i may be mistaken though.
all i am saying is, you cannot use "**** happens" as an excuse for soldiers misconduct. if they murder someone through negligence or being trigger happy they should be investigated and brought to trial if they are found guilty.
i would expect the same no matter what nationality is involved.
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Originally posted by Ball
excuse me? our troops? and so on...........
yep buddy, we're lumped together for the time being. that means we'll respect your troops and you'll respect ours. now, let's make "nice-nice", before you breakup this whole coalition thing.
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Originally posted by straffo
Cav you're nothing but a blind incult cretin.
I will stand in the corner of any serviceman or woman who wears a US military uniform, until they are proven guilty by a court of law...These are the greatest people my county has to offer, and I will by default, give them the benifit of the doubt, until told otherwise by a court of law...
It's called Pride in the men and women in uniform who serve my country.....If loving, and supporting these soldiers, through thick and thin makes me a "blind, incult cretin", then I am damn proud to be one!
ps- Whens the next work riot scheduled?
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Lets never let the facts get in the way of a good flame fest. Keep'm commin!
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Originally posted by cav58d
I will stand in the corner of any serviceman or woman who wears a US military uniform, until they are proven guilty by a court of law...These are the greatest people my county has to offer, and I will by default, give them the benifit of the doubt, until told otherwise by a court of law...
It's called Pride in the men and women in uniform who serve my country.....If loving, and supporting these soldiers, through thick and thin makes me a "blind, incult cretin", then I am damn proud to be one!
ps- Whens the next work riot scheduled?
DTC
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
I suppose you have all the information about this incident and have come to a fair and impartial conclusion, based on the rules of evidence.
Looks like we may have to cowboy up and guard the jail....
What are you on about now? From Vietnam to Iraq US troops have not and are not acting like cowboys. It is a gross injustice to compare the two.
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The individual troops are hardly to blame for this kind of things. It's those who put them there who are to blame.
How much progress you think it will make against terrorism if that bus (next time) will contain a doctor, a pregnant wife and a neighbour driving the car to the hospital at full speed?
The man who loses his unborn child and wife to the bullets of a foreign country will be an instant extremist. And the sad part is, without the English reporter this wouldn't even make it to the news.. business as usual.
One thing about the original post also interests me.. It stated that the reporter was _previously_ shot by insurgents. Now if this was actually dated back to the invasion, would insurgents be the US army? Because there weren't insurgents in Iraq before they lost the war.
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The driver failed to notice the sign by the road: "Use only official ambulance in case of emergency, the overspeeders will be shot."
They need more of those bright flashing lights, sirens, and red paint in Iraq.
-C+
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Originally posted by cav58d
I will stand in the corner of any serviceman or woman who wears a US military uniform, until they are proven guilty by a court of law...These are the greatest people my county has to offer, and I will by default, give them the benifit of the doubt, until told otherwise by a court of law...
It's called Pride in the men and women in uniform who serve my country.....If loving, and supporting these soldiers, through thick and thin makes me a "blind, incult cretin", then I am damn proud to be one!
ps- Whens the next work riot scheduled?
btw didn't your country sided with Stalin ?
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Originally posted by straffo
btw didn't your country sided with Stalin ?
Didnt half your country fight with Hitler?
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Originally posted by Dago
Didnt half your country fight with Hitler?
the other half didnt fight at all which cancels it out, so i think he has the right to tell you what he thinks.
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Looks like the dumb truck has made its way pretty effectivly through this thread.
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Did you hear about the new French tank????? Yea, it's got five gears! Four in reverse, and one forward, incase they are attacked from the rear!:rofl
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That's an old joke about an Italian tank :D
(honestly actually, from WW2 I belive)
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i agree with wolfala. If you want to report on a war you better be ready to get shat on. until they find evidence that a soldier intentionaly ended the life of an otherwise healthy and harmless reporter i see no need to mske sny more fuss about this than the countless other thousands that die each day.
last year or so, when UK police shot a brazillian manual worker at a tube station because he was running with a bag held above his head.... thats still pretty much tough luck in my view, and thats far more serious. To make a big thing and even to have a suggestion of murder is far from benificial for the soldiers in question, who quite possibly have thier own issues regarding guilt and regret anyhow. maybe im being heartless to the family of the reporter.
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Originally posted by Viking
What are you on about now? From Vietnam to Iraq US troops have not and are not acting like cowboys. It is a gross injustice to compare the two.
A fine example of enlightened thinking.
"Troops are not acting like cowboys."
140k troops in Iraq now, and all are Lyndie England. 500k+ troops in Vietnam, all are Lt. Calley.
this never happened,
"The sergeant braved hostile fire to evacuate three wounded soldiers and single-handedly killed dozens of enemy soldiers before being killed himself as he covered the evacuation of other wounded Americans.
Army Sgt. 1st Class Paul R. Smith posthumously became the first soldier in the Iraq war awarded the Medal of Honor, America's highest military award, given in recognition of extreme valor in combat."
Or this:
"34-year-old U.S. Army sergeant Gerald Fox has been working on a proposal to have nine schools rebuilt in Saddam Hussein's hometown of Tikrit, at a cost of $243,300. He has contracts for repairs to 14 other schools and has assessed 92 others.
His work is part of a project designed to repair some of the 2,000 schools in the three Iraqi provinces controlled by the U.S. Army's 4th Infantry Division. The aim is to have some schools ready by Wednesday, when students go back to class."
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I disagree Holden "Cowboy is a broad term for people who work on ranches. They sometimes participate in rodeos"
according too :
http://simple.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cowboy
:p
Btw cowboy in EU mean :
- cowboy
- outlaw
- desperado
- vilain
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they have cowboys in southern france and in spain.
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in Orgeon they're called "buckaroos":mad: :mad: :mad: :furious
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Originally posted by straffo
Btw cowboy in EU mean :
- cowboy
- outlaw
- desperado
- vilain
[/B]
The EU is wrong. Roy Rogers was never a Villian.
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I'm a cowboy, and I even shoot guns. Does that make me a villain?
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what did those innocent guns ever do to you?:confused: :confused: :O :O :mad: :mad: :furious :furious
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Given the travesty that euro cowboy movies are it's understandable about their misconception regarding real cowboys.
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My kind of cowboy.
(http://www.indignato.it/dr%20strangelove.JPG)
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Originally posted by Maverick
Given the travesty that euro cowboy movies are it's understandable about their misconception regarding real cowboys.
I don't think "The Good, the Bad and the Ugly" fit this description.