Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Thrawn on October 20, 2006, 01:09:53 PM
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(http://www.truthdig.com/images/eartothegrounduploads/kevin_pat_350.jpg)
Courtesy the Tillman Family
Pat Tillman (left) and his brother Kevin stand in front of a Chinook helicopter in Saudi Arabia before their tour of duty as Army Rangers in Iraq in 2003.
After Pat’s Birthday
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Posted on Oct 19, 2006
Courtesy the Tillman Family
Pat Tillman (left) and his brother Kevin stand in front of a Chinook helicopter in Saudi Arabia before their tour of duty as Army Rangers in Iraq in 2003.
By Kevin Tillman
Editor’s note: Kevin Tillman joined the Army with his brother Pat in 2002, and they served together in Iraq and Afghanistan. Pat was killed in Afghanistan on April 22, 2004. Kevin, who was discharged in 2005, has written a powerful, must-read document.
It is Pat’s birthday on November 6, and elections are the day after. It gets me thinking about a conversation I had with Pat before we joined the military. He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people. How we could be thrown in a direction not of our volition. How fighting as a soldier would leave us without a voice… until we get out.
Much has happened since we handed over our voice:
Somehow we were sent to invade a nation because it was a direct threat to the American people, or to the world, or harbored terrorists, or was involved in the September 11 attacks, or received weapons-grade uranium from Niger, or had mobile weapons labs, or WMD, or had a need to be liberated, or we needed to establish a democracy, or stop an insurgency, or stop a civil war we created that can’t be called a civil war even though it is. Something like that.
Somehow our elected leaders were subverting international law and humanity by setting up secret prisons around the world, secretly kidnapping people, secretly holding them indefinitely, secretly not charging them with anything, secretly torturing them. Somehow that overt policy of torture became the fault of a few “bad apples” in the military.
Somehow back at home, support for the soldiers meant having a five-year-old kindergartener scribble a picture with crayons and send it overseas, or slapping stickers on cars, or lobbying Congress for an extra pad in a helmet. It’s interesting that a soldier on his third or fourth tour should care about a drawing from a five-year-old; or a faded sticker on a car as his friends die around him; or an extra pad in a helmet, as if it will protect him when an IED throws his vehicle 50 feet into the air as his body comes apart and his skin melts to the seat.
Somehow the more soldiers that die, the more legitimate the illegal invasion becomes.
Somehow American leadership, whose only credit is lying to its people and illegally invading a nation, has been allowed to steal the courage, virtue and honor of its soldiers on the ground.
Somehow those afraid to fight an illegal invasion decades ago are allowed to send soldiers to die for an illegal invasion they started.
Somehow faking character, virtue and strength is tolerated.
Somehow profiting from tragedy and horror is tolerated.
Somehow the death of tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people is tolerated.
Somehow subversion of the Bill of Rights and The Constitution is tolerated.
Somehow suspension of Habeas Corpus is supposed to keep this country safe.
Somehow torture is tolerated.
Somehow lying is tolerated.
Somehow reason is being discarded for faith, dogma, and nonsense.
Somehow American leadership managed to create a more dangerous world.
Somehow a narrative is more important than reality.
Somehow America has become a country that projects everything that it is not and condemns everything that it is.
Somehow the most reasonable, trusted and respected country in the world has become one of the most irrational, belligerent, feared, and distrusted countries in the world.
Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.
Somehow the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country.
Somehow this is tolerated.
Somehow nobody is accountable for this.
In a democracy, the policy of the leaders is the policy of the people. So don’t be shocked when our grandkids bury much of this generation as traitors to the nation, to the world and to humanity. Most likely, they will come to know that “somehow” was nurtured by fear, insecurity and indifference, leaving the country vulnerable to unchecked, unchallenged parasites.
Luckily this country is still a democracy. People still have a voice. People still can take action. It can start after Pat’s birthday.
Brother and Friend of Pat Tillman,
Kevin Tillman
This was posted over at AGW. I thought it was interesting to see the opinion of someone who (along with his brother) was co-opted so extensively to forward an agenda he didn't or at least no longer believes in.
http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday/
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guess he's a democrat eh?
sorry to disappoint Kevin but this voter will be an R voter on 11/06.
If he thinks it is bad with the current group wait until the nancies get another shot at it ...
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Originally posted by Eagler
guess he's a democrat eh?
sorry to disappoint Kevin but this voter will be an R voter on 11/06.
If he thinks it is bad with the current group wait until the nancies get another shot at it ...
agreed :aok
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Originally posted by Eagler
guess he's a democrat eh?
What? You have to be a Democrat to disagree with the current administration?
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I have trouble with the authenticity of the statements of the brother.
You would think that if your brother layed down his life for what he believed in, that he would acknowledge that. Something doesn't ring true here.
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Originally posted by Eagler
guess he's a democrat eh?
sorry to disappoint Kevin but this voter will be an R voter on 11/06.
If he thinks it is bad with the current group wait until the nancies get another shot at it ...
My Phish following brother could do a better job than the current "group". You should feel very proud touting the slogan "Yea we suck, but not as bad as somoene else could suck". No wonder our country is screwed up. Try and set your standards just a wee bit higher.
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He spoke about the risks with signing the papers. How once we committed, we were at the mercy of the American leadership and the American people.
Not to mention American solders, for he was killed by friendly fire.
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Originally posted by Recap
My Phish following brother could do a better job than the current "group". You should feel very proud touting the slogan "Yea we suck, but not as bad as somoene else could suck". No wonder our country is screwed up. Try and set your standards just a wee bit higher.
the best that was offered - you'd rather have gore or kerry running the war?
or running away from the war more like it, you know, showing our enemies our yellow streak as we did from 93 - 00 ...
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Originally posted by Eagler
the best that was offered - you'd rather have gore or kerry running the war?
or running away from the war more like it, you know, showing our enemies our yellow streak as we did from 93 - 00 ...
That is the biggest cop out I've ever heard. Enough with the scare tactics. They are nowhere near as scary as where we are right now. Ask the troops on the ground in Iraq how much better off they are. Sheep go baaaa.
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I am the holder of a death note for my best friend, Ralph Moore...He is a 12B on his second tour in Iraq out of FOB Ramadi. He asked me to read the letter before heading back for the second time...I am not going to copy the letter into this post, but it says that if he is to die in combat, then he accepts, and is proud of his death...As much as he hates Iraq, being there has given so much hope and purpose to his life, and he urges the war continue, even after his passing, because there is progress being made.... I hope I never have to read this letter aloud, but if that day comes, I will be proud to do so....
So for everyone Keven Tillman, dont forget there is a Ralph Moore and others like him.
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Originally posted by cav58d
I am the holder of a death note for my best friend, Ralph Moore...He is a 12B on his second tour in Iraq out of FOB Ramadi. He asked me to read the letter before heading back for the second time...I am not going to copy the letter into this post, but it says that if he is to die in combat, then he accepts, and is proud of his death...As much as he hates Iraq, being there has given so much hope and purpose to his life, and he urges the war continue, even after his passing, because there is progress being made.... I hope I never have to read this letter aloud, but if that day comes, I will be proud to do so....
So for everyone Keven Tillman, dont forget there is a Ralph Moore and others like him.
I suppose one of them HAS to be right? Or is it possible both are?
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Originally posted by Recap
That is the biggest cop out I've ever heard. Enough with the scare tactics. They are nowhere near as scary as where we are right now. Ask the troops on the ground in Iraq how much better off they are. Sheep go baaaa.
where are we right now?
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Originally posted by Recap
I suppose one of them HAS to be right? Or is it possible both are?
I am not saying one is right or not....You showed me a soldier who opposed the war....I showed you one who supports it...nothing more, nothing less
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Pat Tillman (left) and his brother Kevin stand in front of a Chinook helicopter in Saudi Arabia before their tour of duty as Army Rangers in Iraq in 2003.
DId Pat tillman serve in Iraq? I thought he was serving in Afgan and was killed there...
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Everyone is entitled to their opinion, at least in America.
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Originally posted by soda72
DId Pat tillman serve in Iraq? I thought he was serving in Afgan and was killed there...
I think you're right about that. Hmmm, wondering how accurate this is.
No, Pat did serve in Iraq prior to Afghanistan.
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Originally posted by Gunthr
I have trouble with the authenticity of the statements of the brother.
You would think that if your brother layed down his life for what he believed in, that he would acknowledge that. Something doesn't ring true here.
Um, he didn't. Read the wiki on Tillman for more info.
Folks like an Eagler will be quick to judge him. "Democrat" or "Liberal" just because Tillman's truths violate Eagler's precious world-view--despite what 66% of our country believes, despite the overwhelming evidence that we are in a morass with no viable exit.
Tillman was killed by his own troops and the circumstances surrounding his death was hidden from his parents while being used as patriotic fodder by those whose political wagons were inextricably hitched to Bush and his ilk.
In their tiny minds, disagreeing with the Admin= Democrat/Liberal--though I believe he will be stunned when all of us regular old Republicans vote them out of office next month.
Listen to Olbermann--many here will attack the man but are completely unable to even give even half an answer to his comments, none of which are "left" -- you will find no pro abortion message, no gun control message, no let's raise taxes message, in short, not a single "left" plank. Yet these here will still portray Olbermann's message as "from the left."
This lack of rational thought by the far right whackos well represented on this board is nothing more than pathetic, irresponsible and dare I say it?
UnAmerican.
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Originally posted by Recap
That is the biggest cop out I've ever heard. Enough with the scare tactics. They are nowhere near as scary as where we are right now. Ask the troops on the ground in Iraq how much better off they are. Sheep go baaaa.
What scare tactics? We have two choices, I vote R as the D's turn my stomach as a whole.
I believe the majority of the boots in the field believe in their mission. can you show me that they don't?
Horn - if that is true then the dems will sweep in Nov effectively stifling the rest of Bushs term
I don't think that will happen
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Originally posted by Eagler
Horn - if that is true then the dems will sweep in Nov effectively stifling the rest of Bushs term I don't think that will happen
Even if it does, it will take years to fix the damage done by this President. Just getting a Dem congress will not be anything but a weak start. Frankly, Dems aren't the answer either but if there really is a God He will remove these corrupt, valueless, immoral, hatemongering incompetents from office.
The very idea of a Hillary in office makes my skin crawl but even she would be worth it to get these people out. The Bush admin is getting our guys killed and mutilated with no end or solution in sight.
But hey, at least the current admin will never have to worry about getting in trouble for their crimes against the USA and the world--they recently gutted the War Crimes Act so they can't be held responsible for violations of the Geneva Convention or any crimes against Mankind. Sweet deal, eh?
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sry Horn - the current admin is nothing like what you describe to me..
I stand by Bush and the majority of his decisions since 00. I appreciate the SC judges he got in there and feel the day the dems take total control as the repubs have had for the last 6 years, will be the beginning of the end of the US as we know it .. not a scare tactic, just a fact IMO
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Originally posted by Eagler
sry Horn - the current admin is nothing like what you describe to me..
I stand by Bush and the majority of his decisions since 00. I appreciate the SC judges he got in there and feel the day the dems take total control as the repubs have had for the last 6 years, will be the beginning of the end of the US as we know it .. not a scare tactic, just a fact IMO
Well start performing, you've had enough time.
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Originally posted by Eagler
sry Horn - the current admin is nothing like what you describe to me..
I stand by Bush and the majority of his decisions since 00. I appreciate the SC judges he got in there and feel the day the dems take total control as the repubs have had for the last 6 years, will be the beginning of the end of the US as we know it .. not a scare tactic, just a fact IMO
Wow. I say wow because normally you have cogent thought processes. Do you really not understand the over 700 "findings? Do you not see that the erosion of habeus corpus is a problem? Do you not see that our torture of prisoners "legally" is a bad thing? Do you not see that if you are accused of something and the Gov't says that the evidence is classifed there is no recourse? Do you not object, even in a small way to the 700 incarcerated in Gitmo--and only 10 charged with a crime? Do you not see that torture is illegal? Do you not see that incarcerated people in Gitmo are only allowed due process if they plead guilty?
If you don't see any of this then I am sorry for you. And your children. THEY will have no recourse in our new "Geneva Convention is lame" world.
Will you be outraged when our enemies torture our guys? I'm guessing not--you know, because, well, we can do it to them.
Your slippery slope is audacious and wrong. You should at least man up and see what is going on around you.
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who cares what the dude has to say, HA WASN`T IN THE NFL!!!!
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Originally posted by Horn
Wow. I say wow because normally you have cogent thought processes. Do you really not understand the over 700 "findings? Do you not see that the erosion of habeus corpus is a problem? Do you not see that our torture of prisoners "legally" is a bad thing? Do you not see that if you are accused of something and the Gov't says that the evidence is classifed there is no recourse? Do you not object, even in a small way to the 700 incarcerated in Gitmo--and only 10 charged with a crime? Do you not see that torture is illegal? Do you not see that incarcerated people in Gitmo are only allowed due process if they plead guilty?
If you don't see any of this then I am sorry for you. And your children. THEY will have no recourse in our new "Geneva Convention is lame" world.
Will you be outraged when our enemies torture our guys? I'm guessing not--you know, because, well, we can do it to them.
Your slippery slope is audacious and wrong. You should at least man up and see what is going on around you.
Just so you know..If I thought you or anyone else had information that jeapordized the saftey of my family-friends or the old lady who lives down the street-- I WOULD PULL THEIR FINGERNAILS OUT MYSELF!
wahh just ask the nice man if he knows anything wahhh :cry :cry
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Originally posted by FBplmmr
Just so you know..If I thought you or anyone else had information that jeapordized the saftey of my family-friends or the old lady who lives down the street-- I WOULD PULL THEIR FINGERNAILS OUT MYSELF!
wahh just ask the nice man if he knows anything wahhh :cry :cry
Another fan of Jack Bauer? If only real life were as simple as Fox's TV series '24'.
You're ready to pull someone's fingernails out on the suspicion you "think" they have information. Pretty ugly, bloody, painful situation if you find out they didn't know anything after all.
Is that really the way you want life in America to be? Torturing people based on suspicion?
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Originally posted by Horn
Wow. I say wow because normally you have cogent thought processes. Do you really not understand the over 700 "findings? Do you not see that the erosion of habeus corpus is a problem? Do you not see that our torture of prisoners "legally" is a bad thing? Do you not see that if you are accused of something and the Gov't says that the evidence is classifed there is no recourse? Do you not object, even in a small way to the 700 incarcerated in Gitmo--and only 10 charged with a crime? Do you not see that torture is illegal? Do you not see that incarcerated people in Gitmo are only allowed due process if they plead guilty?
If you don't see any of this then I am sorry for you. And your children. THEY will have no recourse in our new "Geneva Convention is lame" world.
Will you be outraged when our enemies torture our guys? I'm guessing not--you know, because, well, we can do it to them.
Your slippery slope is audacious and wrong. You should at least man up and see what is going on around you.
I also believe in the death penalty knowing every blue moon the wrong guy gets zapped. But also knowing the vast majority of them get what’s coming to them...I can't give a rats arse for anyone who finds themselves in gitmo for the same reason ... sorry.
Tell the terrorists to unite under a single nationality, Iranian or Syrian would work for me, so they will be afforded all the GV rules and regulations. It's not my fault these chicken-sheet woman and child butchers hide out amongst the general pop while conducting their heartless actions ..
as for "Will you be outraged when our enemies torture our guys? " - do you think they would not torture their prisoners if we did not torture ours? You do realize you empower them when you cry for their "rights" - they laugh in your face as they bear down on the next orange clad kidnapped reporter/soldier/contractor neck with their "God is Great" sword or when denote the next ied under the next convoy of soldiers whose only purpose in Iraq was/is to make it a better place than before they showed up. Or do you believe the "invasion and occupation" was for nothing but "cheap" oil?
Sorry, I cannot share your paranoid fears of our government as I believe it is the best in the world as is the country
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Originally posted by Eagler
guess he's a democrat eh?
No, he's a person who walked the walk and put it on the line, which is more than you or I have done.....HE is a patriot.
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Originally posted by oboe
Another fan of Jack Bauer? If only real life were as simple as Fox's TV series '24'.
You're ready to pull someone's fingernails out on the suspicion you "think" they have information. Pretty ugly, bloody, painful situation if you find out they didn't know anything after all.
Is that really the way you want life in America to be? Torturing people based on suspicion?
Torture is a last resort when all other avenues have been exhausted....It is our expressed goal of not enjoying the pain and suffering to these very specific individuals, but of garnering information from which we believe we have a reason foundation to believe they contain, in lieu of protecting American lives...Do we get it wrong sometimes? Sure....We also send a lot of innocent men to death, or life sentences after being judged by a jury of peers...where is your outcry there?....
I happen to trust me government, and if a security agency has reason beyond a doubt to believe an individual is holding information to an imminent attack, and what talk, then torture is faiir game....
Theres two things your missing....
1- If these people wanted to protect themselves even more to fals accusations (sp), then how about denouncing terror! rally behind the cause and help end this bloody war....
2- I dont know how people manifest this up, but I sincerely doubt that any real terrorist is going to be saying "i dont know anything I am a good guy" while being questioned or even tortured....Realistically its more like FU infidel I will not talk
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Somehow being politically informed, diligent, and skeptical has been replaced by apathy through active ignorance.
too true...
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Originally posted by john9001
where are we right now?
not even gonna touch that. if ya don't see it I can't show it to ya.
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Originally posted by Eagler
We have two choices, I vote R as the D's turn my stomach as a whole.
I believed the same thing until I was exposed to the concept of third parties and voting one's consience. There are lot of third parties with a variety of platforms, but the libertarian party comes closest to my idea of true american ideals. All you who treat your R vote as an anti-D vote are doing this country a disservice. All you who blindly follow the party line instead of examining the issues and voting your conscience are doing your country a disservice.
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Originally posted by Eagler
I stand by Bush and the majority of his decisions since 00. I appreciate the SC judges he got in there and feel the day the dems take total control as the repubs have had for the last 6 years, will be the beginning of the end of the US as we know it .. not a scare tactic, just a fact IMO
wow... just wow... You watch a lot of Fox News, dontcha? O'Reilly? Rush?
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Originally posted by bsdaddict
I believed the same thing until I was exposed to the libertarian party. There are lot of third parties with a variety of platforms, but the libertarian party comes closest to my idea of true american ideals. All you who treat your R vote as an anti-D vote are doing this country a disservice. All you who blindly follow the party line instead of examining the issues and voting your conscience are doing your country a disservice.
All of you who vote independent and let Hillary take office will have killed this country. You are responsible for the first Clinton. We can't take another.
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Originally posted by lukster
All of you who vote independent and let Hillary take office will have killed this country. You are responsible for the first Clinton. We can't take another.
thinking like that allows the R's and D's to play with your emotions and keep one side focused enough on beating the other side that you fail to see the damage that's being done to the American way of life by both sides.
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Originally posted by Eagler
I also believe in the death penalty knowing every blue moon the wrong guy gets zapped.
I believed in the death penalty until I realized that the wrong guy getting zapped "every once in a while" makes it an unconstitutional practice.
Sorry, I cannot share your paranoid fears of our government as I believe it is the best in the world as is the country
Blind patriotism is Nationalism, which we all know leads to Facism. NAZI!!
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Another Vietnam was created, by the same people who lived through the original Vietnam.
I find it ironic that poor, undereducated Americans, the ones who have the most to gain from the politcal process, vote the way that modern day aristocrats tell them too. Shoot, its these same Americans who bear the brunt of our military service! But I guess if they want to send their sons and daughters to fight, blindly trusting a political party that has made more military blunders than Hitler, thats their right. The Republican party has made so many military blunders that its inexcusable.
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Originally posted by bsdaddict
thinking like that allows the R's and D's to play with your emotions and keep one side focused enough on beating the other side that you fail to see the damage that's being done to the American way of life by both sides.
I didn't think like that until I watched it happen. If you don't learn from history you are doomed to repeat it.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Another Vietnam was created, by the same people who lived through the original Vietnam.
I find it ironic that poor, undereducated Americans, the ones who have the most to gain from the politcal process, vote the way that modern day aristocrats tell them too. Shoot, its these same Americans who bear the brunt of our military service! But I guess if they want to send their sons and daughters to fight, blindly trusting a political party that has made more military blunders than Hitler, thats their right. The Republican party has made so many military blunders that its inexcusable.
I think you haven't much of a clue about how many Americans think. Why is it that many liberals become conservative but rarely is it vice versa? Something to do with a more useful education I think.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I find it ironic that poor, undereducated Americans, the ones who have the most to gain from the politcal process, vote the way that modern day aristocrats tell them too. Shoot, its these same Americans who bear the brunt of our military service!
the military is all volunteer, there is no draft right now.
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Maybe you think the average American is living in some big mansion, five cars in his garage, pool in the backyard. No. The middle class is shrinking. The working class is definately growing.
Why anyone would want to 'conserve' being poor is beyond me.
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Originally posted by john9001
the military is all volunteer, there is no draft right now.
Go check your figures, draft or not, its lower socioeconomic classes who fill the ranks of the military.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Go check your figures, draft or not, its lower socioeconomic classes who fill the ranks of the military.
I live in Fairfield County, Connecticut, and have a very wealthy and affluent family...I will be commissioning in May 07' US Army. Sorry aqua, but dont generalize because you are wrong...
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Originally posted by john9001
the military is all volunteer, there is no draft right now.
there is no draft yet...
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Originally posted by lukster
I didn't think like that until I watched it happen.
that's a matter of perspective. you say third parties "stole" enough R votes to tip the scales in D's favor, I say enough people woke up, saw the R's schtik about small government, lower taxes, lower spending, etc. as just that, schtik, and decided to vote their conscience. Too bad most of them let their emotions be played to stick to their consciences. Allowing the lies to continue by voting for the lesser of two evils (which, btw, is still an evil) out of fear that "the other side" might win is shortsighted and bad for this country. Look at the rights that have been stomped on in the name of communism, drugs, and now terrorism, all while government grows, spending skyrockets, and the documents that define us as a nation are ignored by those chosen to represent us. Is this really OK with you?
Listen, THEY'RE PLAYING WITH YOUR EMOTIONS!! BOTH R'S AND D'S ARE GUILTY. They're keeping you afraid enough to think that you NEED their PROTECTION and are more concerned about being SAFE than being FREE. I'm sorry, but Im seeing America dying a bit more every day, and I cannot in good conscience vote for the perpetrators. That means my vote goes to a third party. The LP happens to suit me best. It's really the only way these shenegans will stop, enough people who are, above all else, sick of the shenanegans in Washington voting their consciences. It's happening, too. Gonna be a bunch of new L's in office soon.
If you don't learn from history you are doomed to repeat it.
now that's just funny coming from someone who voted for bushie.
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Originally posted by Eagler
Sorry, I cannot share your paranoid fears of our government as I believe it is the best in the world as is the country
It's called "denile", usually sufferred by people who don't have the coping skills to acknowledge reality; The picture that you carry inside your head is very different from reality. For you to acknowledge the truth would make your 'play' world crumble at your feet.
Bush admin has done more harm globally to America than all other US presidents combined.
Almost 3000 dead US sevicemen in Iraq and all of them for absolutely nothing. That's something to very proud of?
Are your plans to support another war to protect isreal from HER enemies, based on lies and deceception?
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It's not because I think liberals are wrong...I just dont like them as people...They all tend to be the same...boring, whiney and wusses....
When I think about it, ALL of my close friends are conservatives....
:noid
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Originally posted by cav58d
I live in Fairfield County, Connecticut, and have a very wealthy and affluent family...I will be commissioning in May 07' US Army. Sorry aqua, but dont generalize because you are wrong...
So... on your first job in charge of a platoon, are you going to argue with your platoon sergeant that Haahvaad is clearly better than Yale?
I'm bettin he's gonna be a Yale man, although I guess Columbia or Princeton probably have quite a presence in the enlisted ranks as well.
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
Are your plans to support another war to protect isreal from HER enemies, based on lies and deceception?
I don't know, why don't you tell me .. what war and what lies exactly before you use ur omnipresent 20/20 hindsight and tell us all the error of our ways after the fact ...
I know my reality, sorry I don't live in your dream world where Bush is the devil and America the great satan ... we are too close to the forest to see the trees, history will prove you wrong - that I do not doubt
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Originally posted by cav58d
I live in Fairfield County, Connecticut, and have a very wealthy and affluent family...I will be commissioning in May 07' US Army. Sorry aqua, but dont generalize because you are wrong...
I certainly hope you use your GI Bill when you get out. Obviously you don't know much about military history. Below I have attached a short clip from an article talking about the Army specifically targeting poor people for recruitment.
-more than 44 percent of military recruits come from rural areas, most from the South and West. “Many . . . are financially strapped, with nearly half coming from lower-middle-class to poor households, according to new Pentagon data based on Zip codes and census estimates of mean household income.”
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Obviously you don't know much about military history.
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what are your academic credentials shrimp? or are you just "well read" like everybody else?
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Yeager, did you serve?
I lose track of who has and who hasn't... obviously the only people who can truly know what sort of people serve (as in where they are from, what 'class' of people join up, what race, etc) are those who have served, as the military obviously wouldn't collect that data and make it available to the general public.
Hopefully you did serve, so you can settle the debate. In YOUR unit (immediate unit), how many people were Ivy-league educated? How many were college educated? How many enlisted personnel had college degrees when they enlisted? Obviously the proportion of Ivy league educated enlisted personnel was high, but were there more PFC's from Harvard, or Yale? I think that is what the debate is about.
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"Somehow, the same incompetent, narcissistic, virtueless, vacuous, malicious criminals are still in charge of this country. Somehow, this is tolerated. Somehow, nobody is accountable for this."
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Sorry he lost his brother but he is now in the sheehan camp as far as Im concerned. He has impeached himself from deliberate thought. what a mess.
:eek:
Urchin 12 years as a USAF dependant and the past 2 years employed in a support role as a contractor to the military. I work with uniformed military persons every day and I see none of what the previous poster alluded to.
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
It's called "denile", usually sufferred by people who don't have the coping skills to acknowledge reality; The picture that you carry inside your head is very different from reality. For you to acknowledge the truth would make your 'play' world crumble at your feet.
Kind of like a guy who would waste a day trying to get a good seat on the curb across the street from an eatery so he could snap some pics of the important people.
Bush has caused more damage than all the presidents combined? LOL. You seem very sad. In my opinion, you have no clue how the real world operates.
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Originally posted by Yeager
Urchin 12 years as a USAF dependant and the past 2 years employed in a support role as a contractor to the military. I work with uniformed military persons every day and I see none of what the previous poster alluded to.
Oh, so you are just "well read" then?
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no urchin working in direct support of the armed forces is a step or two above being well read, thanks for asking :rolleyes: and yes, very well read. very well read indeed.
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Oh, I didn't mean any disrespect... I was under the impression that it was either you served or you had no knowledge at all. Sometimes finding that middle ground is hard to do on the internet.
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I served. went to boot camp in '91. there was one college graduate in the 80ish men in my company there. I was next in line, being a two year dropout.
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Me at Osan AB Korea 93-94 (Top left) (http://sidesconsulting.com/misc/lynn.jpg)
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"Yeager, did you serve?"
Originally posted by Yeager
12 years as a USAF dependant and the past 2 years employed in a support role as a contractor to the military. I work with uniformed military persons every day and I see none of what the previous poster alluded to.
The answer was "no" Yeagar...but you would make a fantastic politician.
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Originally posted by Urchin
Yeager, did you serve?
I lose track of who has and who hasn't... obviously the only people who can truly know what sort of people serve (as in where they are from, what 'class' of people join up, what race, etc) are those who have served, as the military obviously wouldn't collect that data and make it available to the general public.
Hopefully you did serve, so you can settle the debate. In YOUR unit (immediate unit), how many people were Ivy-league educated? How many were college educated? How many enlisted personnel had college degrees when they enlisted? Obviously the proportion of Ivy league educated enlisted personnel was high, but were there more PFC's from Harvard, or Yale? I think that is what the debate is about.
Urchin summed it up beautifully, even added some sarcastic bite, like a virtual glove in the face.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
The answer was "no" Yeagar...but you would make a fantastic politician.
lmao
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I have an idea, I know that being a woman on here my idea hold no validity but hree goes anyway.
Instead of sitting around argueing or commenting about a war on a message board, why don't the armchair generals ( you know who you are) figure a way out of it that doesn't get us all killed in the process.
If you don't like the current political party in office right now, in 2 years vote Democrat (either way both parties lie the same)
As for people bashing Bush, look at it this way, at least he doesn't flip flop half way thorough his admistration.
And just think, if a woman was in teh Oval office, Iraq would NOT have been invaded, and Osama Bin Laden would be dead by now.
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How about instead of voting for a democrat or a republican. Vote for people who you think would do a good job.
As long as we're stuck on stupid, (vote for the lesser of two evils), democrats and republicans will keep holding office.
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Originally posted by dmf
(either way both parties lie the same)
and that's why I vote Libertarian.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
"Yeager, did you serve?"
The answer was "no" Yeagar...but you would make a fantastic politician.
You are wrong Thrawn...Yeager, as well as Seagoon, working in direct correllation to better the lives of our soldiers, is right up there with serving...
and I think dont anyone is disputing that the enlisted ranks are primarily lower class. But dont generalize and say they all are, becuase my friend Ralph who I spoke about in another thread, college grad and also comes from a very strong family, and enlisted as a 12B.
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Id really like to see 1/2 of you passive, apathetic dweebs apply for a commission and actually get it
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maybe his heart's in the right place, but I wouldn't go so far as to say he "served". you might as well say the ladies in the PX are "serving". I'm not trying to offend here, so my apologies if I do, but to me "serving one's country" implies military service. Putting one's self in harms way (or training to do so) for very crappy pay. Signing on the dotted line, taking an oath and having Uncle Sam OWN YOUR ASS.
Did you do that?
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Originally posted by cav58d
Id really like to see 1/2 of you passive, apathetic dweebs apply for a commission and actually get it
Lol. I think you'd be better suited for the military police rather than ocs.
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Originally posted by cav58d
You are wrong Thrawn...Yeager, as well as Seagoon, working in direct correllation to better the lives of our soldiers, is right up there with serving
Thrawn's right, he didn't ask if he was "right up there with serving".
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Urchin summed it up beautifully
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urchin didnt sum up anything. What he did was give you the opportunity to not answer my question which you appear to have taken full advantage of.
Heres is the statement that prompted my question to you:
shrimp said "Obviously you don't know much about military history."
So my question to you was, and still is "what are you academic credetials"?
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Originally posted by cav58d
You are wrong Thrawn...Yeager, as well as Seagoon, working in direct correllation to better the lives of our soldiers, is right up there with serving...
Maybe you think it's equal to serving in the military, but it is not serving in the military.
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Not to mention insulting to those who do and have.
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Maybe you think it's equal to serving in the military, but it is not serving in the military.
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what do you think thrawn?
Is actively supporting the military through contract support, working directly with the men and women in uniform to help them achieve their mission and safeguard the nation up there with "well read" ?
what do you think??
suave, sit down until the spinning stops, then try again :rolleyes:
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Yeager thanks for your work with the troops bud
your a good American
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Yeager can you say something in adult male speak so that I might understand? You know, say what you mean and say it directly and not hide behind insinuation or colloquialism.
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Originally posted by cav58d
Yeager thanks for your work with the troops bud your a good American
you're
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dont get all wrapped up around the axle suave?
there! is that "adult male speak" enough for ya :aok
Thanks Cav, I am proud of the work that I do :D
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Originally posted by midnight Target
you're
No....It's your
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midnight...Before you criticize someone, make sure you get it right...now sit down
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You're= The contraction of "You" and "Are". Ex: You're a good American.
Your= Shows possession. Ex: Your dog is very large.
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LOL
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DOH =)
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Yeag,
My company makes components for the TOW missile, for our Nuclear Missiles both land and sea based, and many other DOD demanded products, and I will NOT equate what I do with serving in the military.
It's a JOB behind a DESK, period. Nothing more and nothing less. I do take pride in the products we produce, but that pride is in both our Military and Civilian products.
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Originally posted by Yeager
what do you think??
I think that if one of the people you work with gave you an order to kill someone or risk your life, you are legally entitled to tell him to go **** himself...hard. Someone who serves in the military doesn't have that choice, under the law.
And the difference between the two situations is like night and day.
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Originally posted by cav58d
It's not because I think liberals are wrong...I just dont like them as people...They all tend to be the same...boring, whiney and wusses....
Heck, I could say the same thing about conservatives.
I think you're all crazy, D or R.
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thats a legitimate opinion thrawn.
stringer, are you just a manufacturer/supplier then? no contact with uniformed services, just build a product and have UPS deliver it? Do you have to review your product with the military, make changes per military contract, then go to where the military uses your product and review how what you make is maintained and used....interacting in a very professional manner with your military counterparts?.......or do you just sit at a desk?
I think we have two very different jobs, I appreciate how you view your job though, and thanks.
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Originally posted by Recap
My Phish following brother could do a better job than the current "group". You should feel very proud touting the slogan "Yea we suck, but not as bad as somoene else could suck". No wonder our country is screwed up. Try and set your standards just a wee bit higher.
Amen.
Which why I toss my vote (I)ndependent. The DC crime families have proven too corrupt for my support. We wont get one iota of real change sending the same recycled party purchased losers to office.
78% polled (on CNN) believe the government is broken, that congress as a whole blows fat chunks.. just imagine if the clones didn't, often illegally, keep non robot Independants off the ballots... this country just might get out of the toilet.
It would only take a handful of (I)ndependents too, 20 or 30 seats, just enough to screw up the status quo the clones have lavished themselves in.
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
It would only take a handful of (I)ndependents too, 20 or 30 seats, just enough to screw up the status quo the clones have lavished themselves in.
I'd almost like to see a complete reworking of our system... 3 Senate seats per state... 1 guaranteed to a Dem, 1 guaranteed to a Republican, 1 guaranteed to an Independent... Have each run against a number of people in their party/affiliation and let all state citizens vote for each seat... Give each candidate a set dollar amount for their campaign and don't allow them to go a penny over.
That way you could still vote for what "kind" of Republican or Democrat or Independent gets the office, be it extremist or moderate, but at the same time we might get a few more ideas in office instead of "my party says this, which is naturally superior to whatever your party has to say" and since candidates would only be running against those in their own party, but be voted for by all citizens of the state regardless of the citizen's party affiliation, they wouldn't have to tote the party line to get their party's primary win and have a shot at being elected... They'd have to tote what their constituents believed in... Imagine that, eh?
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Originally posted by x0847Marine
Which why I toss my vote (I)ndependent...
Might as well toss ur vote into the crapper and save the gas ...
do you think you are "sending a message" by voting "I" or are just truly wasting your vote. IMO, by voting Independent in NOv, you are voting for no one and have zero effect on the vote outcome..
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Originally posted by Eagler
Might as well toss ur vote into the crapper and save the gas ...
do you think you are "sending a message" by voting "I" or are just truly wasting your vote. IMO, by voting Independent in NOv, you are voting for no one and have zero effect on the vote outcome..
When the independent has enough money and charisma, and a good platform, it can get pretty darn close... Bull Moose, anyone?
See, people like you are normally right in what you just said. Unfortunately, it is also people like you who refuse to take a gamble that keeps the Independents out of office when they truly have a chance.
Anyway, I figure just showing up to the ballot is wasting your vote if you intend to vote Republican or Democrat these days... The world will not end if a Democrat gets in office... We will not turn into Nazi Germany if a Republican is elected.
We'll pretty much be in the same boat, in the same pond, that we are in now, forever. And that pond's getting pretty stagnant.
If there was ever a truly centrist party that believed in considering both sides of an argument before making a decision, I'd vote for it in a heartbeat assuming they could get even 10% of the votes. Because quite frankly many liberals make me sick, but so do many Republicans. I find it really amusing how members from both sides think they're that much different or better then the other.
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hmm atleast the democrat were able to get with a woman...
repubs.... and teenage boys..
that is a minus for me..
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Originally posted by navajoboy
hmm atleast the democrat were able to get with a woman...
repubs.... and teenage boys..
that is a minus for me..
If that's true you might want to stay away from the dems. They praise and reelect their teenage boy lovers and their current house leader marches in parades with Manbla supporters.
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Originally posted by Eagler
Might as well toss ur vote into the crapper and save the gas ...
do you think you are "sending a message" by voting "I" or are just truly wasting your vote. IMO, by voting Independent in NOv, you are voting for no one and have zero effect on the vote outcome..
boy the brainwashing sure has taken a hold of you now, hasn't it...
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Originally posted by Yeager
no urchin working in direct support of the armed forces is a step or two above being well read, thanks for asking :rolleyes: and yes, very well read. very well read indeed.
so hanging around the candy store makes you the candy making expert...?
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Originally posted by cav58d
Id really like to see 1/2 of you passive, apathetic dweebs apply for a commission and actually get it
i like to see you bypass the commission and go enlist..
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Originally posted by lukster
If that's true you might want to stay away from the dems. They praise and reelect their teenage boy lovers and their current house leader marches in parades with Manbla supporters.
true but i didnt give a plus one for them either.. just like everyone says here.. the lesser of two evils. not even worth voting anymore. who knows what the democrats will do if they get elected. who knows what will happen when the republicans get elected.
who knows..
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I was stuck (already voted using the new early voting procedure) choosing the lesser of two evils here in ILL at the state level. This is a battleground state on the 2nd Amendment and the corrupt Republican machine managed to field a party hack (Marlboro Cafeteria Lady Topinka) candidate that is even weak compared to the likely soon-to-be indicted Democratic Gov. Howdy Doody Blagovitch.
The strongest 2nd Amendment candidate, by far, was actually the Green Party guy - downright libertarian in his views -- but I just know he'll get about 3 percent of the vote. He was pretty much cut out of the campaign and ignored by the media elites except for a few columns by John Kass.
I did cast an anti RHINO (Republican In Name Only) Congressional vote though. This guy was anti 2nd, anti 4th and anti habeas corpus (and he votes that way - not just lip service) so I figured the Democrat couldn't be any worse and if he's dumped maybe the next Republican candidate will offer a real choice. Wishful thinking though.
I'm an independent centrist with libertarian leanings and I usually disagree with "lesser of two evils" voting and try to practice what I preach. I firmly believe the system is broken and see little of value that ultimately sets one party above the other. But several Issues I care a great deal about are under direct attack at the state level (and have been for years) with clear party lines and there is a great likelihood that I will be directly and personally impacted where my 2nd Amendment and 4th Amendment rights are concerned should Blago get another term. These issues are not just for election year show and scare, but represent a certainty of actual legislation. It doesn’t help that the Trib and Sun Times have an editorial crusade at work supporting the dilution of these “lesser” rights, leading to a fact-free presentation of the issues to the citizens of Ill.
Charon
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Originally posted by navajoboy
true but i didnt give a plus one for them either.. just like everyone says here.. the lesser of two evils. not even worth voting anymore. who knows what the democrats will do if they get elected. who knows what will happen when the republicans get elected.
who knows..
Based on current and past performance I think we have a pretty good idea what the democrats will do. Raise taxes and implement more social programs. They will also whittle away at the second amendment. This will be under the guise of protecting us from ourselves of course when in reality it will be to ensure any insurrection is easily suppressed when folks become violently fed up with government oppression.
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Originally posted by bsdaddict
boy the brainwashing sure has taken a hold of you now, hasn't it...
nope, just reality
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Folks like an Eagler will be quick to judge him. "Democrat" or "Liberal" just because Tillman's truths violate Eagler's precious world-view--despite what 66% of our country believes, despite the overwhelming evidence that we are in a morass with no viable exit.
You guys are hilarious. Do you think that anyone in this world is free from bias for anything?
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so hanging around the candy store makes you the candy making expert...?
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no, but working in the candy store might give me something you obviously dont have, a clue :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by navajoboy
i like to see you bypass the commission and go enlist..
I'll be honest...I dont know if I have the strength to go the enlisted route...Those are the best our country hs to offer and I am in awe of them.....But to answer your question, I will not be enlisting because I am coming into the military with a very technical skill that I know I can best exploit as an Officer, for the better of the whole. My experiences have prepared me, in my opinion, to be a good Officer and Leader, and I think I will be most efficiently used in that roll...If I truely thought that I would make a better 11B sargeant, then a Warrant and Army Aviator, then I would go the enlisted route...But I don't, and I have no apologys for that
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Originally posted by Yeager
thats a legitimate opinion thrawn.
stringer, are you just a manufacturer/supplier then? no contact with uniformed services, just build a product and have UPS deliver it? Do you have to review your product with the military, make changes per military contract, then go to where the military uses your product and review how what you make is maintained and used....interacting in a very professional manner with your military counterparts?.......or do you just sit at a desk?
I think we have two very different jobs, I appreciate how you view your job though, and thanks.
You assume wrong, Yeager.
Yeag...you're not in uniform, stop posturing as though you are, that's all. What our companies do is absolutely important work, but it's not like you or I are going on our 3rd tour away from our families, or are dodging IED's. Our biggest worry is the jerk in front of us on our daily commute home.
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Our biggest worry is the jerk in front of us on our daily commute home.
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I can handle the jerk in front of me, its the jerk speeding up on my braking tail lights that freaks me out.
String
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9/10 times it is a female minority =)
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I just read through this whole thread and it made me want to puke.
People complaing about combatants captured on a battlefield being held at Gitmo without charges. Those captured on a battlefield dont need to be charged with anything.
People complaining about the President doing a horrible job. If you think you can do better, run for office, or shut up.
People complaining about interrogation techniques and calling it torture. The last thread about prisoners being tortured, I googled for torture techniques, I didnt find one source that listed the things used by our intelligence services as torture.
People complaining about casualties. Guess what? Casualties suck, but they are an unavoidable aspect of warfare. Whining about it isnt going to bring anyone of those folks back.....ever.
I DID serve....I DID sign on the dotted line, Uncle Sam DID own my butt for 5 years 11 months and 17 days from May of '81 to May of '87.
I have a very personal interest in this war. My own son....IS serving, he DID sign the dotted line.....Uncle Sam DOES own his butt....and.....he is headed BACK to the Sandbox in less than one week from now.
I dont care one bit about those issues above the last 2 paragraphs....not one bit. Want to know what I care about? My son coming home safe, and everyone elses son/daughter coming home safe.
/stalks out slamming the door behind me.
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My family and I thank you and your son for your service to our country
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Originally posted by Eagler
My family and I thank you and your son for your service to our country
amen brother..
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Doesn't matter what anyone posts on here, nobodys opinon is going to be changed either way, The threads do make good reading though.
One thing that annoys me more than anything else is when we have so many armchair Generals on here spouting forth about "honor" "bravery" and all that other C##P. It then descends into those who have served in some sort of capacity, either counting blankets in Alaska or changing a spark plug in Korea, or even having done nothing at all, then telling us all what's right and what's wrong. I know hardly anything about Millitary history, I know hardly anything about politics, In fact I'm impressed a great deal on here about the range and breadth of knowledge in all manner of subjects. But one thing I do have intimate knowledge on is living through the hell that is called combat, no point in going on and on about it as 99.9% of the posters on here would have no clue as to what it's like and would be a slap in the face to my memories and the things that keep me going on a daily basis, But that still doesn't make me knowledgable on all the history stuff and Tillman being right or wrong, I can only speak for the time when a small part of real estate became my whole world, outside that then i'm just another poster, If tillmans brother said that then that's fine with me, he's earned that right, same with anyone else who has seen it and done it.
The hardest thing is surviving and going back into what you would class as civillian life, belive it or not, life is actually easier when fighting for your life, you don't have to worry about much except staying alive, back in the real world though, you have birthdays, xmas, looking after a house, looking like you are interested in what your friends handicapp is,cleaning a car, driving to work, paying bills etc.
Then comes dealing with other views on warfare etc, stay or go, stuff liek that, Thing is, you have to keep beliving in what you done as right, otherwise then what was it all for?, So tillmans brother gets the thumbs up from me, he stopped going through the motions and became an actual real live person, with real thoughts and feelings and he laid them out. He probably doesn't care what you or I think, he more than likely done it for himself.
Rant/speech over
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Another Vietnam was created, by the same people who lived through the original Vietnam.
I find it ironic that poor, undereducated Americans, the ones who have the most to gain from the politcal process, vote the way that modern day aristocrats tell them too. Shoot, its these same Americans who bear the brunt of our military service! But I guess if they want to send their sons and daughters to fight, blindly trusting a political party that has made more military blunders than Hitler, thats their right. The Republican party has made so many military blunders that its inexcusable.
Fret not, the two party system is merely a precursor. With escalating costs of higher education the only option for most will be the US Armed forces, which in and of itself is not a bad thing. The problem is that the people able to afford college will also be the ones elected to office, and the ones who determine how many wars we're expected to fight.
Pretty soon we'll have two more parties. Sons of politicians, and sons of soldiers.
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Originally posted by cav58d
No....It's your
Oh man....
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Originally posted by Hawco
Doesn't matter what anyone posts on here, nobodys opinon is going to be changed either way, The threads do make good reading though.
One thing that annoys me more than anything else is when we have so many armchair Generals on here spouting forth about "honor" "bravery" and all that other C##P. It then descends into those who have served in some sort of capacity, either counting blankets in Alaska or changing a spark plug in Korea, or even having done nothing at all, then telling us all what's right and what's wrong. I know hardly anything about Millitary history, I know hardly anything about politics, In fact I'm impressed a great deal on here about the range and breadth of knowledge in all manner of subjects. But one thing I do have intimate knowledge on is living through the hell that is called combat, no point in going on and on about it as 99.9% of the posters on here would have no clue as to what it's like and would be a slap in the face to my memories and the things that keep me going on a daily basis, But that still doesn't make me knowledgable on all the history stuff and Tillman being right or wrong, I can only speak for the time when a small part of real estate became my whole world, outside that then i'm just another poster, If tillmans brother said that then that's fine with me, he's earned that right, same with anyone else who has seen it and done it.
The hardest thing is surviving and going back into what you would class as civillian life, belive it or not, life is actually easier when fighting for your life, you don't have to worry about much except staying alive, back in the real world though, you have birthdays, xmas, looking after a house, looking like you are interested in what your friends handicapp is,cleaning a car, driving to work, paying bills etc.
Then comes dealing with other views on warfare etc, stay or go, stuff liek that, Thing is, you have to keep beliving in what you done as right, otherwise then what was it all for?, So tillmans brother gets the thumbs up from me, he stopped going through the motions and became an actual real live person, with real thoughts and feelings and he laid them out. He probably doesn't care what you or I think, he more than likely done it for himself.
Rant/speech over
Well put...too bad I had to read all the other stuff to get to your post
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LOL Yeag, true enough!!
!