Aces High Bulletin Board
Special Events Forums => Friday Squad Operations => Topic started by: FiLtH on October 20, 2006, 11:54:02 PM
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The COs should try to put a cap group at every target
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It is required that you CAP all targets for at least the first hour.
- Any targets not initially attacked or defended in the first hour will result in a 25% reduction of over all awarded points or the loss of objectives. This is to insure all squads will see action within the first hour.
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Putting a CAP directly over a target is not the only way to defend a target and it is usually the worst way. Once strikers reach a target you are not defending it. You are just trying to tag a few on the way out. If you don't have a superior force there then you are simply throwing people to the wolves and still not defending the target . It is no fun to be a sacrifice to a script.
The best way to defend a target is to meet the enemy before he reaches the target, well before. Cover his most likely routes and get amongst him before he is established and ready. If you get it right he will never get enough leverage on the target to be effective. If you get it wrong and he gets around you he will get a run on the target. The only outcome that is different from leaving a small standing cap is that you won't have thrown people away needlessly.
In this last frame I had the defending forces travel down the most likely ingress routes with orders to attack anybody they met on the way. This would disrupt inbound attacks and leave them in a position to still support and reinforce the attackers as they flew to their own targets.
One group also acted additionally as escort to outbound strikers. This double tasking was essential as there was a very high likelihood that our strikers would contact an enemy strike force while still climbing out. This group in fact had the first contact with attacking forces at only 10 minutes in (right where they were expected). I immediately ordered they be intercept. I had a time allowance built in for our defenders to break up the inbound attack and join up again with the outbound. However these enemy planes very wisely avoided a fight and left. Good luck to them. They played it how scenarios should be played. Try to preserve your life. Getting tied up with a massivley superior force is stupid and belongs in the main arena or kid's comics. It however left us as a cohesive unit so we just kept on going, eyes open for the rest of them.
The other "cut off" force also came into contact only a few minutes later. They reported an intense fight that they dominated but was cause for them to rtb to rearm.
The objectives of this frame required a massive striking force from the Axis. Three bases to be struck against the Allies two. Fifteen hangars and 35 strat objects to be broken. With lightweight early planes and their slow speeds, low ordnance capabilities, this means that the bulk of Axis forces had to be in the strike element. It is therefore also likely that the bulk of Allied forces would be in defence of such a large target requirement.
Our strikers did a brilliant job. The token defence at the bases received the brush aside treatment and were destroyed. Gosh I bet they had fun. They didn't even slow the attack let alone stop it. We were never able to carry the firepower to destroy all targets in a single strike. A second strike over the second hour was required. Forces were despatched to targets along angles to cut off any enemy tracking to or from our bases. Many fights ensued.
All targets were struck a second time and all destroyed. After this CO's were given the choice of returning to base or continuing to hunt down opposition aircraft. Some did go home, some rearmed and went hunting again.
The fights started at 10 minutes in and continued til 2 minutes from the end (if you can call a landing vulch a fight). We did plenty of defending and plenty of attacking. At the end there was only lots of "This one was really fun" comments.
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SOmething should be looked at as far as squad sizes assigned. A 16-20 sized squad attacking a target with a 1-4 sized squad isnt good. Maybe assign priorities for each target. Larger squads on each side assigned to attack/defend the highest priority targets, and work down from there to keep a better balance.
FSOs in my opinion should be about the fight. A squad vs squad sized action. Not like other events sneaking around trying to stay undetected. That makes for a poor couple of hours in my book.
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Geez.... do we want to legislate everything!!! Why even bother assigning Country CiC's, just have the CM's mandate everything.
To me, FSO's are planning, execution and achieving your goal. If you achieve your goal unopposed then the other side planned poorly. The AK's among others were tasked to bomb three targets. We expected fierce opposition, however two of them were unopposed in the first hour. Whether this was by design or accident, I can safely say none of AK's felt cheated...we accomplished our task.
It is the responsibility of each squadron CO to adapt to the situation. If you encounter a unprotected target, demolish it and then go hunting.
By nature, the FSO's are strategic and goal oriented, that is why country orders are required. If you just want a furball, stay in one of the MA's.
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I guess we just look at FSOs differently.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
FSOs in my opinion should be about the fight. A squad vs squad sized action. Not like other events sneaking around trying to stay undetected.
So I guess strategy isn't important?
In my opinion, strategy is critical! Its what makes the whole event fun.
Its what differentiates it from a simple arcade game. FSO is both
a titanic fight and a thinking man's game. Why make it less?
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IMO FSO IS the only event that is strategic and tactical and allows for deep planning while still allowing those time-pressed individuals to crank out a set of orders that can maintain the fun factor. For me, if I am on a bombing run.....the fun is sneaking in, working the timing so your defenders are too busy, too low and / or too slow to get to me.
On the other hand, flying escort or interceptor missions mean I want a fight (especially interceptors). Doesn't necessarilly have to be a good fight.
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Like I said I guess we look at FSOs differently.
For me an FSO should be squad vs squad sized engagements, at different areas of the map, so all get into combat, and each objective be contested, and see who prevails.
Major events are the things to plan, try to play sneaky, etc.
I just don't see the allure of avoiding fights in here.
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Filth, I tried what you are talking about when I was an Admin CM for Squad Ops. I went beyond balanced sides, I tried to get balanced fights. The COs hated it. They felt I was taking away too much from their planning and fun.
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Originally posted by Nifty
Filth, I tried what you are talking about when I was an Admin CM for Squad Ops. I went beyond balanced sides, I tried to get balanced fights. The COs hated it. They felt I was taking away too much from their planning and fun.
The thing is is that the version of fun being referred to by the COs is only enjoyed by a couple of people for each frame. If that fun comes at the cost of boredom for 20-50 people, well, perhaps that should be taken into account.
I don't have any strong opinion on whether FSO specifically should strive for either direction, though. Just trying to clarify. Close Escort is doing a pretty good job for a "guaranteed action" scenario - it just needs a few more pilots - and I find CE quite refreshing in that it does not have the constant risk of bonehead orders, or sightseeing for a full tank of gas. ;)
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I find very little "fun" in being a Country CiC. I dread it every time it comes around. It occupies a great deal of my free time from Sunday to Wednesday in planning, the allocation of resources to follow the ever increasing number of "rules" and the best of my abilities not to produce "bonehead" orders so discussions like this don't appear.
As long as you score the FSO's, assigning points for kills and damage, you will have orders that will that will try to maximize that total. That is called strategy. The current setup dictates that there be a winner and a loser.
Change the premise or the goal of the event and you will likely change how the orders are written.
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All:
The FSO as is the best part of AHII. I know I speak for the 325th when I say that. We all look forward to it and our turn out numbers over the years reflect that as well.
We look forward to the Operations Orders that are published and the 325th goes as far writing our own internal supporting operations orders for that order each and every week. These are detailed and include enemy courses of action, graphics, enemy AC evalulations and preflight training.
I enjoy the CIC duties as do some of the others. This enjoyment is based on my ability out wit the enemy CIC. I and a few others in the 325th call and talk for at least an hour each week as to best courses of action and options. There are few restrictions in combat and the FSO needs to reflect that as much as it can.
Dantoo's comments above referring to a squad that wisely choose not to engage him was the 325th. He called it in with all the details that could be provided and moved on as he was higher and faster than the 325th. And very wisely he did not attack us either as he had a mission to complete and that mission was not to engage squads in furballs. This is prime example of two professional squads passing and not engaging. Any one can publish an Operations Order that basically states "Go Get'em"! Dantoo is one of them.
The 325th also conducts AAR's at the conclusion of every FSO. One key point we drive home is the return and survival of our pilots. Pilots who return damaged AC home are rewarded. No one furball's we fight the controlled fight as that is what wins. Squadern proformance is evalulated on survival of the squad and not individuals and scores. Assist's in kills are reguarded higher than Kills knocked down. I would rather fly with 5 professionals that get 5 assists every game than 1 loner that kills 5. It doesnt bother a man in the 325th to fly a perfect 60 minute mission in which we strike a undefended target and return safely without damage. You dont need to die to have fun. Thats not what the FSO is about.
No game or scenario is perfect, but they dont need to be either. This is about FUN FUN FUN on a larger scale than what can be accomplished by posting a small ad-hoc mission in the MA.
If squad furballs are what people are asking for then that needs to be a different scenario and night. As memory serves me that was the old "snap-shot" event which I liked. It was a short ad-hoc 30 minute engagement walk on event. Then you switched sides and went at it again. All was over in 60 minutes. You could get killed multiple times and basically a controlled squad furball.
The FSO has taken a long time to reach the point in which it is. Please dont mess with success!
Viper 61
Operations Officer
325th VFG
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I have to say the FSO is the best thing in Aces high as well,
I belive its as close as you can get to warfare on this format. And Living should be a Big part of it, The best thing is make it home in one piece with little losses and obj complete
I know we all have them eneventfull flights but thats the way it goes.
lets let planning timing and luck due there thing
The FSO has taken a long time to reach the point in which it is. Please dont mess with success!
I have to agree :aok
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I dont see what the big deal is here.
As the Allied Frame CO for Frame 2, I think I executed my plan fairly well. Both of my targets were destroyed. Unfortunatley so were defensive objectives.
A poor judgement call on my part was to send my attacking forces back to there targets. Looking back at it, they were pretty much all destroyed. And there was really no need to send all those squads back. Had I kept a decent numbers of fighters to defend our objectives after the initial attack, I may have been able to successfully defend them.
The Map for this setup has some fairly well distanced fields, And the Slow Early War Aircraft made these distances greater. I remember calls of the Japanese over our fields, Looked at the map, and knew right there I wasnt going to make it to 14 or 10, By the time I arrived over one field the attackers were gone headed North (I assume) for 10. There I saw my only enemy during the entire event a lone Zero.
Dantoo, very fun and I would like a re-match down the road.
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IMO the FSO is fine the way it is. Controlled furballs would be boring in the long run. Using strategy within given parameters of historical battles and A/C, always provides the change needed to keep it interesting. The challange of completing the objective with out damage has always been squad policy for the 325th. Something we pride ourselves in doing! Yes some of us do view the FSO differently! :aok
Cutt
325th Commanding
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Nef. I thought it was a good frame too. I made a couple of gambles and they paid off, one didn't.
I left the northern approach uncovered. This gambit was calculated upon the speed of your aircraft and the distance from the best fields to use that approach. With less targets than me, there would have been a temptation for you to make a quick hit and then hold back - strolling in big time in the second hour. I wanted to upset that concept early.
By the time we had set up our attack force properly we had a very heavy southern bias. This required me to overturn, somewhat, a major strategem that I had not to reup anybody in the north. There wasn't any way with this plane set that you could rush and plug holes. Once committed you truly were committed. In the end I had people upping second rides in the north to provide defence.
All these possibilities are very good because they truly give CO's something to think about. My objective for the frame was simple. I didn't set out to win it. I set out for everybody on both sides to have fun. The one thing that I truly feared was an immense furball 10 minutes after the start with 90% back in tower with an hour and 40 minutes left in the frame.
I will say one thing on the design. I believe the F4f is an unbalancing factor. I flew one in Rangoon and I thought it was unbalanced there. AH models it tougher than an M8 to kill and with the 4 gun pack you can hold down the trigger for at least 30 seconds before you are out of ammo. Zekes use half their cannon to get one, but fall apart themselves with a burst of 50s.
Next time limit the F4fs not the P40s. I haven't looked, but if I'm talking through my hat then it will be borne out in the k/d ratio. I know when I was preparing for this frame all I could envision was a battle with 60 f4fs and only wielding enough firepower to down maybe 20 of them. Of course I would be happy to respond by substituting the La5 for the Oscar! :)
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FSO is great! No need to change anything.
I look forward to the strategy and the unexpected outcomes. Some Frames are decided on the smallest detail. Thats fun for most of us.
One life and Planing are what makes FSO what it is. If you want balanced squad fights then set up squad duels.
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I agree that the Squad Ops/FSO should be left as it is today.
The 325th is full of people that love to get in the AvA or MA and furball. When we get together on Friday nights for FSO is when we really come together as a Squad. As Viper61 said, sometimes, we dont see any action at all, but still complete our mission. Sometimes we see a lot.
Several members of the 325th AH squad have spent hours talking with original WWII Checkertails and there were missions they saw action and missions that were quiet...They didnt mind the quiet missions...
These FSOs have been fantastically planned and executed on both sides..closest thing to war we'll ever see in an online experience. IMHO the planesets have been the most evenly matched, with what was really in the theater we are reenacting at the time...
I had a member of the TBM squad we were escorting mention how happy he was that they were being escorted by the 325th, as he knew we would do everything we could to perform our mission and wouldnt leave them undefended... We've flown slow bombers in the past where our escorts were more concerned with furballing than escorting and we all get slaughtered the minute we are left to fend for ourselves.
Squads that want to purely slug it out are free to use the DA to challenge each other..
Please leave FSO as is....
Fireof59
325th
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I have to agree with my squadmates and aparently with just about everybody else. :-) FSO is just right as it is.
Read most of this thread and what's apparent is that this is one awesome game with considerable and refined thought being brought to bear. Everyone gets to contribute. Into strategy? Have at it. Walk away two hours later proud or humbled. Hot stick? Bring all your skills as you fight as a team player...die alone....Save a squadmate....run out of gas with 4 kills...Whatever the outcome it will be because of the decisions you made perhaps seconds earlier.
Nothing makes success feel better than a long slog through great risk. I'd rather fly an FSO with no contact but knowing we did our assigned job than be in one fight after another...That I can do any night in MA. This is about imersion...maybe of getting a glimps of what 83 year old men went through for us all in '41 or '44. Maybe just the fun of doing something without a net.
Swoop73
XO 325th FG Checkertails
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My only beef with FSO is it's only once a week, that and I have to curb my drinking on friday night, instead of starting at 7ish I have to wait till at least ten. ah the humanity.
btw filth it was great to see ya in the air. hope ya reconsider
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I feel the same way as the rest of my squadies!! FSO is the way its suposed to be, don't mess with it!:D
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I think the FSO should remain as it is now. I fly with the 325th Checkertails and I usually fly only on the Friday night Squad Operation. Most of the "adventure" of the FSO is aerial combat "reenactments" of WWII theatre ops. I'm, personally, not very good at fighter-to-fighter engagements. Everyone reading this post has shot me down at least 10 times in the MA. However, in the FSO I do well, mostly because I'm with my squad and I'm mission focused. Reciently, I have been very surprised by the quality of the enemy (Axis) commanders in the FSO. The Axis commanders have demonstrated a very high level of tactical ability that I did not expect from anyone in AHII. Thier overall plans have consistently presented a great challange to the Allied side. For the record, I'm a professional military tactical planner, so my assesment should mean something. Another point: Every time I fly one of these FSO missions, I gain a new and higher level of respect for the guys who flew these missions 60+ yeas ago. So, my vote is to keep FSO as is.
Lowtec
325th Checkertails