Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Reynolds on October 22, 2006, 01:20:28 AM
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Alright, my instructor is crazy. He already owns one of the highest performance, and rarest gliders in the world, the Fox, of which there are only 12 in the united states. Here are two pictures:
(http://www.freewebs.com/stepford_child/000_0065.jpg)
(http://www.freewebs.com/stepford_child/000_0066.jpg)
But that isnt enough for him. This november, he has purchased, and will affix two turbo-jet engines to the Fox above the wings. As it stands, this plane can do things no other can. Next to all aerobatic meets are won by a Fox (Assuming one is participating), and there is only ONE in hawaii. He does low passes at 175 miles an hour easy, does loops, hammerheads, anything a powered stunt plane can do, but now he is adding jets, to double, maybe TRIPLE the speed, and do even more insane stunts. Yes, this has been done before succesfully, but not with a Fox, with a lower perfomance plane, so I cannot wait to see how this handles. Because I am a good student of his, I will be getting a free flight in it in the november off-season once the engines have been attached. I will give you all pictures as soon as he is done. Until then, it remains on the flight line, the only one anything like it there.
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The F-15 so owns that thing, no matter how many engines you put on the glider! So do a lot of old warbirds, and they don't even have jet engines.
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Does he plan on having it towed in the air before engaging the jet engines? or does he plan to do what the U2 does and attach wheels to the outter tips of the wings to keep it balanced on the runway.
<--- not much of a glider expert
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Originally posted by Raptor
Does he plan on having it towed in the air before engaging the jet engines? or does he plan to do what the U2 does and attach wheels to the outter tips of the wings to keep it balanced on the runway.
<--- not much of a glider expert
tow to 5,000, activate engines, release, engines at idle for the most part, but full during climbs, loops, hammerheads, low passes, and other maneuvers.
And benny, have you ever seen what a fox can do? Do you have any comcept of gliders at all for that matter? I have done things in gliders not NEARLY as high-end as that I would NEVER consider doing in a powered aircraft. Recounting some of the rolls and loops to my grandfather (Who WAS a World War Two test pilot for fighters, and thus KNOWS what they can and cant do, and has done them himself) HE was amazed at what these gliders can do. Now, in a flat out run, an F-15 would of COURSE win. A Warbird MIGHT, depending on whether the fox has just come out of a dive, and what warbird it is. Now, these arent incredibly powerful engines, but I venture to say, once they are added the Fox will outrun, any early war plane. You dont realise, this is an incredibly fast, incredibly maneuverable airplane. So, judging by your answer, you are blissfully ignorant and live in your own little world, and refuse to be edjucated. So please, keep your nose out of things so obviously beyond your grasp.
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He does low passes at 175 miles an hour easy, does loops, hammerheads, anything a powered stunt plane can do, but now he is adding jets, to double, maybe TRIPLE the speed
You got to be dreaming, 350 to 525mph.:eek:
Even 2 J-85s in the new Me262s have to be restricted in power.
The Microturbo 022 Couguar or TRS-18 in a BD-5J only does around 300mph.
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Hehe in a level flight at 450 mph this thing would probably break.
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The Vne of the MDM-1 Fox seem to be listed around 290km/h.
The Fox is an aerobatic sailplane and does it very well. But in the terms of pure gliding performance, there is much more effective planes.
gripen
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Woa Reynolds, this thread should be at the wish list!
(at least it'd for me :D )
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I've seen a sailplane with two small jets on it. Performance was ok, definately not stellar.
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umm...
uhh...
ok...
I hope we're talking about tiny model airplane size jets.
Instead of wasting his money doing something dumb...he can send it to me and I'll make sure its much better spent.
are you sure he wasn't messing with you? If you are unsure has anyone ever:
Sent you in search of a bucket of prop wash?
Required from you a yard of flight line?
Requested urgently a left handed monkey wrench?
If you answered yes to any of the questions on this simple quiz then there are not going to be any little jets stuck on that glider.
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Reynolds, for the most part, it really seems that you don't know what you are talking about.
Fox is a really really nice aerobatic glider...the best in the world right now, that is true. But like it was already pointed out you don't seem to know the concept of Vne for example.
I truly wish I could get a ride in a Fox jets or not, there isn't one in Finland.
Been flying one in Condor, the best soaring sim available...
www.condorsoaring.com (http://www.condorsoaring.com)
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Originally posted by Golfer
are you sure he wasn't messing with you? If you are unsure has anyone ever:
Sent you in search of a bucket of prop wash?
Required from you a yard of flight line?
Requested urgently a left handed monkey wrench?
That's hilarious :lol
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Give the kid a break you guys :)
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Originally posted by Golfer
umm...
uhh...
ok...
I hope we're talking about tiny model airplane size jets.
Instead of wasting his money doing something dumb...he can send it to me and I'll make sure its much better spent.
are you sure he wasn't messing with you? If you are unsure has anyone ever:
Sent you in search of a bucket of prop wash?
Required from you a yard of flight line?
Requested urgently a left handed monkey wrench?
If you answered yes to any of the questions on this simple quiz then there are not going to be any little jets stuck on that glider.
No, he really is serious. He has already bought them, they were, I THINK, a little over 5-grand each. I seriously think it is dumb, but nonetheless, I cantwait to see how it flies! Okay milo, triple speed is an exageration, and the 175 low passes are only VERY brief, and after a power-dive. And yes gripen, it doesnt have the best glide ratio, thats not its purpose. Its purpose is aerobatics, and the jets are there to augment THAT, not to make it fly... longer. And auqa, how did look when it used them? Hey Wmaker, I dont know terribly much about the fox in particular, I have actually never flown in it, simply because he cannot train me in it without it costing twice as much, so, the speeds are a combination of mostly what he has researched and calculated, and my experience in other gliders, watching the airspeed while doing maneuvers. Those double speeds arent sprinting, only VERY short duration to augment the maneuver.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
tow to 5,000, activate engines, release, engines at idle for the most part, but full during climbs, loops, hammerheads, low passes, and other maneuvers.
And benny, have you ever seen what a fox can do? Do you have any comcept of gliders at all for that matter? I have done things in gliders not NEARLY as high-end as that I would NEVER consider doing in a powered aircraft. Recounting some of the rolls and loops to my grandfather (Who WAS a World War Two test pilot for fighters, and thus KNOWS what they can and cant do, and has done them himself) HE was amazed at what these gliders can do. Now, in a flat out run, an F-15 would of COURSE win. A Warbird MIGHT, depending on whether the fox has just come out of a dive, and what warbird it is. Now, these arent incredibly powerful engines, but I venture to say, once they are added the Fox will outrun, any early war plane. You dont realise, this is an incredibly fast, incredibly maneuverable airplane. So, judging by your answer, you are blissfully ignorant and live in your own little world, and refuse to be edjucated. So please, keep your nose out of things so obviously beyond your grasp.
i dont think that was really nessesary. :(
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Originally posted by moneyguy
i dont think that was really nessesary. :(
No, it wasnt. I over reacted.
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Originally posted by Wmaker
I truly wish I could get a ride in a Fox jets or not, there isn't one in Finland.
If you ever go to Hawaii, let me know, ill hook you up with him and you get a nice ride! :D
Oh, and how do you take off in condor? Can you fly the aero tow? Is there an auto-tow option?
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Hi Reynolds,
About Warbirds-speeds and the like....when Fox's Maximum Never-exceed speed is only 290km/h he really can't fly faster, no matter what extra propulsion he might have or he risks getting into a flutter which might cause the plane to break up in air.
So in that light Reynolds...
"You dont realise, this is an incredibly fast, incredibly maneuverable airplane. So, judging by your answer, you are blissfully ignorant and live in your own little world, and refuse to be edjucated. So please, keep your nose out of things so obviously beyond your grasp."
...Benny is actually correct. If we think about early war fighters VERY, VERY few of them were slower than 290km/h. The sorry Bristol Bulldog that finns had to use in Winter War is one but most were a lot faster. And like you said Fox can't maintain that speed very long after it has converted altitude to air speed. So it's like comparing apples to oranges.
Condor uses both common launch methods, aero tow and the winch. It really has state of the art physics too. As you have a chance to get some stick time in the Fox I recommend you to get Condor just to try the sim-Fox before you have your real life Fox-flight. It is a great sim for cross country and competition flying aswell. I really can't recommend it enough!
EDIT/The aerotow is an AI-plane but it works very well!/EDIT
Thank you so much for your offer Raynolds! I would be glad to take up it! :)
I hope I can get to Hawaii in this life time!:)
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Ok, suppose he does strap some turbine engines on the thing...Where in god's name does he plan on storing the FUEL for said engines. I mean, we're not talking about RamJets here. No Gas no Go...
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What kind of ramjets do you have that don't burn fuel?
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Reynolds...
I wouldn't get a high and mighty ego because you've flown a glider a few times. You'll get torn apart here as well as in the real world.
Saying things like:
So please, keep your nose out of things so obviously beyond your grasp.
I can't help but get a chuckle at the thought of your You dont realise, this is an incredibly fast, incredibly maneuverable airplane.
I hate to be the one to tell you this but...
...
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It's a glider.
Before you start spouting off (crazy and incorrect) remarks about aerodynamics, aircraft capabilities and comparisons please do a little research on the subjects. At this point your own quote applies to you. you are blissfully ignorant and live in your own little world, and refuse to be edjucated
Here's your chance to turn the corner and do things right.
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[SIZE=9]TROLL[/SIZE]
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:lol
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Hi,
actually i dont know many early wartime planes that did reach 290mph IAS or TAS in low level!! Since 290mph is good below a critical mach number in low to medium alt, i guess the flight restriction of 290mph is IAS related, but i doubt it will break appart. Probably this restriction include the typical extreme high safeness for civilian avaition.
The Spit1a, HurrI1 and Bf109E already had problems to gain this IAS in a level flight. Haw75, I-16, MS406, 110C, Fokker DXXI and most of the bombers dont got that fast(IAS).
I dont know this jet engines, but jets in general keep their thrust in higher altitude and a glider airframe also is somewhat perfect to archive relative high speed(as long as the critical mach dont get reached) in high alt, therefore i can imagine this glider will be as fast as most early WWII planes in higher altitude(10000-16000ft).
Althought Reynolds did overreact, like he already wrote, he wrote: "A Warbird MIGHT, depending on whether the fox has just come out of a dive, and what warbird it is. Now, these arent incredibly powerful engines, but I venture to say, once they are added the Fox will outrun, any early war plane."
This sentences dont seems to be ready and looks like bad formulated, but imho they maen: "with the jets added the Fox might outrun any early WWII fighter, depending on whether the fox has just come out of a dive.. ."
Despite the strange overreaction, i can imagine Reynolds is right!!
Would be interesting to know how many fuel can get added and how many thrust the jets provide.
Greetings,
Knegel
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Don't forget the P-38! I haven't checked for the P-38D, but I'm sure it was over three hundred on the deck.
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The Vne is given as km/h, depending on source 282-293 km/h. This (http://voltigeplaneur.free.fr/Planeur/Fox.htm) site seem to have an original specsheet.
gripen
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290 km/h is 180 mph.
And Knegel
"Since 290mph is good below a critical mach number in low to medium alt, i guess the flight restriction of 290mph is IAS related"
Well, at SL they are the one and same.
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Hi,
Benny, the P38 isnt a early war plane(1939/40).
Gripen, if the Vne is given as km/h and it was 290km/h, of course there is nothing to argue!!
Angus, it depends to the temperature is TAS and IAS is the same at sealevel, but anyway i was pointing to the fact that early WWII planes had problems to reach 290mph IAS(i got the wrong impression that Vne was 290mph).
Greetings,
Knegel
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I'd take a YP-38 over the glider. That flew January 1939. Sounds pre-war by my calendar. Add in the Me-109 as well.
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Knegel:
"Angus, it depends to the temperature is TAS and IAS is the same at sealevel, but anyway i was pointing to the fact that early WWII planes had problems to reach 290mph IAS(i got the wrong impression that Vne was 290mph). "
Thought it was a mixup, so it's okay ;)
Anyway if you count out the bipes and fixed UC aircraft, even the Hurricane I passed the 300 mph mark (1936 or so?), but at sea level, - no.
The trick was to keep engine power declining slower than the air thinned if you see what I mean, so top speed was usually not reached at SL.
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I cannot understand why are you guys comparing a glider to a warbird? :)
Just forget about the warbird and let Reynolds be excited by the great plane and project of his flight instructor. I'd be just as excited if I had been promised a flight in that :)
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Originally posted by Golfer
I'd take a YP-38 over the glider. That flew January 1939. Sounds pre-war by my calendar. Add in the Me-109 as well.
The 109E had some trouble to reach 290mph IAS and the YP-38 wasnt a fighter, it was a prototype, the 1st combat unit got P38īs in 1941 or 42??
Angus, we talk about IAS!! The early HurriI never did reach 290mph IAS in level flight, not matter what alt!
Anyway, Have is right, to fly the "jet powered" Fox must be a great experience.
Greetings,
Knegel
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Originally posted by Reynolds
judging by your answer, you are blissfully ignorant and live in your own little world, and refuse to be edjucated. So please, keep your nose out of things so obviously beyond your grasp.
:rofl :rofl :rofl
can i get "edjucated"?
classic.
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lol, funny post right here :lol
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"Angus, we talk about IAS!! The early HurriI never did reach 290mph IAS in level flight, not matter what alt!"
Okay, maybe just later ones ;)
The "Speed" Spittie was doing 400+ on the TAS at low alt in 1938 anyway :)
All edjucation.....all..all
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Funny thing doug and I were just debating puting jets on my RV friday.
The type that I was looking at sound like what he would put on the plane.
Basicly they are jets orignaly designed for RC planes.
Cost about $5000, 34 LBs thrust burn about 7.2 gallans an hour and only weight 3.5 LBs.
When I looked at what they would do for my RV they would give me about an extra 10 knots.
Now wouldn't supprise me at all with the L/D that the fox has, 34 lbs thrust might be enof to acctual sustain a slow climb.
HiTech
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Reynolds, is that Dillingham?
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Here (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/42677/rocket_bird/?rd=758e2f7feba25db2ba35fc839b1ab9e02bc9247b438d812e) is an interesting RC-jet experiment :) Supposed to be able to maintain level flight.
gripen
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Video of a twinjet glider:
http://www.silentwingsairshows.com/video/twinjet_1.wmv
I think someone linked it here in the O-club a few months ago.
Gatso
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well they did it with a cri-cri.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/856_1129934316_turbinecricri.jpg)
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Originally posted by hitech
Funny thing doug and I were just debating puting jets on my RV friday.
The type that I was looking at sound like what he would put on the plane.
Basicly they are jets orignaly designed for RC planes.
Cost about $5000, 34 LBs thrust burn about 7.2 gallans an hour and only weight 3.5 LBs.
When I looked at what they would do for my RV they would give me about an extra 10 knots.
Now wouldn't supprise me at all with the L/D that the fox has, 34 lbs thrust might be enof to acctual sustain a slow climb.
HiTech
Not quite sir. The ones he is looking at are about 5-6 times heavier from what he has said.
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Originally posted by MiloMorai
Even 2 J-85s in the new Me262s have to be restricted in power.
not really... im sure i read on the 262 remake website that the engines throttle was set so that the stop was about equal the 262's real power.... After then, there was a spring, where the pilot during takeoff roll could engauge full 100% power from the engines by pushing the throttle forward and holding it... However if he let go, it would return to "normal" ie 262s 100%.
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Somebody please film this attempt if it's real! Add it to the Darwin contenders after!!!! :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
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Another (http://www.bird-man.com/?n=windtunnel&nose=20) Rocket-man video :)
gripen
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Wholly cow, youo crazy Finns, LOL.
Call me conservative, but I'd stick to this birdie. (Future plan)
(http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/Images/Pics/Flying/10007LG.jpg)
Top speed 193 kts, Top cruise 160 kts, ROC 2500 fpm+, takeoff 200m, eyc ;)
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in the meantime angus how about one of these?
http://www.silence-aircraft.co.uk/
(http://www.silence-aircraft.co.uk/Gallery_files/Photos/silence%20twister%20spitfire.jpg)
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That looks interesting, and would be cheap to run on a smart engine!
Costs about the same as the other one does, but assembled vs unassembled.
TY for posting :aok
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you are blissfully ignorant and live in your own little world, and refuse to be edjucated. So please, keep your nose out of things so obviously beyond your grasp.
Can't fool this guy - He's probably been to collage :lol
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If he has then he is Dr. Doogie material. He is 13 years old.
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Originally posted by RDSaustinTX
Can't fool this guy - He's probably been to collage :lol
Never said I am the one to do the edjucating ;)
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I know that the videos show different, but I thought these concepts were proven wrong time and again on Saturday mornings by Wile E. Coyote.
(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b197/TonyRockyhorror/coyote_acme.jpg)
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What a perfectly rotten waste of money and aircraft.... :O :huh
Please post more pics of the operation, pre and postmortem. :noid
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Now wouldn't supprise me at all with the L/D that the fox has, 34 lbs thrust might be enof to acctual sustain a slow climb.
Anybody have any data on this bird? Just from looking at it I kinda suspect it's not real high performance as far as sailplanes go. (fully aerobatic I do believe though).
I'm guessing a glide ratio in the area of 35:1 or so?
RTR
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Originally posted by RTR
Anybody have any data on this bird? Just from looking at it I kinda suspect it's not real high performance as far as sailplanes go. (fully aerobatic I do believe though).
I'm guessing a glide ratio in the area of 35:1 or so?
RTR
Glide ratio, only a little better than a lark, I beleive. Its not for long flights, just for kick bellybutton ones.
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Thanks Reynolds, it is a great looking sailplane and I bet it is a hoot to fly!
cheers
RTR
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30:1 for the Fox.
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Open class sailplanes do well over 50:1 and 15 metre class something like 40:1.
gripen
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Originally posted by Bodhi
Somebody please film this attempt if it's real! Add it to the Darwin contenders after!!!! :lol :lol :lol :lol :lol
Putting jets on gliders? Are you under the impression that it hasn't been done before?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvHr-z27PAI
and
http://www.silentwingsairshows.com/jet.html
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those links are already in the thread, chairboy.
nice dig on the old thread too.
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What the heck is that??
Looks like a cardboard airplane with two paper towel rolls on the front for lazers
Edit - DOH you took the picture out
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Originally posted by RDSaustinTX
...been to collage :lol
or college even... :lol
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5 grand for a jet engine :lol . Htc is right that might get you a tiny RC aircraft turbine..
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Sorry but on the original post....what field is that. Looks like maybe Dillingham?
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It is.
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(http://i19.photobucket.com/albums/b197/TonyRockyhorror/coyote_acme.jpg)
this one?
looks like Luke Airforce Base
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Originally posted by Angus
Wholly cow, youo crazy Finns, LOL.
Call me conservative, but I'd stick to this birdie. (Future plan)
(http://www.supermarineaircraft.com/Images/Pics/Flying/10007LG.jpg)
Top speed 193 kts, Top cruise 160 kts, ROC 2500 fpm+, takeoff 200m, eyc ;)
The only thing that would make this plane even more awesome would be to put a V10 Viper engine in it.
Oh yeah, and the cannons. Don't forget the cannons.
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A friend had a slope soarer Spitfire. It looked very much the same as the picture above, it even had American stars.
gripen