Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: lazs2 on October 29, 2006, 09:39:00 AM
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Since a lot of the slum behavior is because of the steep learning curve and how that makes for some gameing of the planeset and griefing and gameing of the squad limits along with milkrunning and such behavior like late war plane choice and HO's..
How bout a "Relaxed realism" arena? No stalls/spins that sort of thing... maybe easier gunnery... outside views..
The new guys could go there... We allready have the tools for aircraft and vehicles and such in the late war... Just make one late war arena "relaxed realism" and the other late war only planes and equipment.
Guys with some skills who liked late war could use the other LW arena to fight like minded players in late war rides.
My bet is that relaxed realism lw anything goes arena would be full every night with the current player base.
While we were at it we could drop the squad limit thing in relaxed realism and the arena numbers limit for that arena.
It should do a good job of still bringing in income but seperating or.... better yet... as a stepping stone up to.. the other arenas.
Some of course, would never leave the safety and security of a relaxed realism arena... they are the type that never do and that is fine. They wouldn't grief the other arenas tho.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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lazs, that's not really a new idea....
culero (BTDT, liked it and so did many others)
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From the "non prime time" point of view, this would be a disaster.
We are already struggling with limited numbers of people split between the EW MW and Lw1. Changing, say, Lw2 to an RR arena, would undoubtedly would water down the numbers even more.
Please dont do it.
Regards
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The learning curve isnt really that steep in my opinion it was pretty easy. If you want to learn goto TA and ask for help or even practice in offline mode.
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Originally posted by lazs2
Since a lot of the slum behavior is because of the steep learning curve and how that makes for some gameing of the planeset and griefing and gameing of the squad limits along with milkrunning and such behavior like late war plane choice and HO's..
How bout a "Relaxed realism" arena? No stalls/spins that sort of thing... maybe easier gunnery... outside views..
The new guys could go there... We allready have the tools for aircraft and vehicles and such in the late war... Just make one late war arena "relaxed realism" and the other late war only planes and equipment.
Guys with some skills who liked late war could use the other LW arena to fight like minded players in late war rides.
My bet is that relaxed realism lw anything goes arena would be full every night with the current player base.
While we were at it we could drop the squad limit thing in relaxed realism and the arena numbers limit for that arena.
It should do a good job of still bringing in income but seperating or.... better yet... as a stepping stone up to.. the other arenas.
Some of course, would never leave the safety and security of a relaxed realism arena... they are the type that never do and that is fine. They wouldn't grief the other arenas tho.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
Whats the matter ..... not enough guys in your world to play with. Getting old is it fighting the same 6 to 30 guys. Wanna water down the LW so the guys that wanna use, AND THERE ARE PLENTY, early and mid planes have to go to other arenas.
Can't be arsed to teach newbies the ropes. Not wanting to be bothered setting the examples. Na you just wanna turn in and pop away except there's hardly anyone skilled or otherwise. HARDLY ANYONE.
You've done nailed your colours to EW & MW yet you still wanna dilute LW in one way and screw it up in another.
Could you get anymore transparant. :rolleyes:
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I like the dedicated fighter/furballer arena idea, but do not agree /w the watered down realism idea. Part of the fun of AH is the that learnig curb.
Aces High Community and ATC! :aok
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lynx.... Bet there are no mirrors in your house eh?
Good idea? Bad idea? so far all you are saying is that it would take away numbers (water down) the late war? How could that be? it would be an anything goes arena with easy mode for real and out in the open instead of pretending the lw isn't now.
If it was a bad idea then none of the new guys or gamers would use it. Heck... it worked fine in other games like AW and the RR guys fit right in when they came here right?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Lynx makes a valid point.
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Don't sound like such a good idea to me... I am a tool shedder/win the war type but what drew me to this game was when I first poped AH1 up and flew around for the 1st time offline at base A1 on Mindinao, just couldn't get over how real the plane felt... I love that part of AH, the flips spins and such, not to meantion I love the early and mid war rides and can hardly stand to fly LA-7's, Spit-16's and such. So it seems that other than being one of the win the war types I don't fit Lazs description much at all.
Thndregg is also one of us strange breed as are many others in the squad. He really disslikes LW even though his YAK-9U is there (and he's good in that thing) but he dislikes the play in there and has hardly played at all after the change....
We like the the war, we like and the furball both and not to meantion we like them in EW and MW but they are so under populated most times that there usually is no war going on to fight and we just log out. So actually this right here go's against what Lazs says..
:eek: OMFG Toolsheders that like to fight in early rides!!!!!!!:eek:
In fact some of the best fights for bases are in EW. Not everyone can hop into a heavy attack plane and pound the crap out of the base as easy as the LW rides not to mention planes are much slower so you can see us coming for some time.
But we don't want just the Furball fights we want to fight for a FOR something. To us the simple I shot you down is not enough and gets boring after a few rounds..
This being the case, where do those of us that fit the description of this rare breed go?? :)
I also agree with lynx.. We already have trouble enough filling what we have.. I don't see having a RR arena having many positive effects on the game.
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lasz, I think in this case, we have to blame the vets as much as the newbs, due to the way that we treat the newbs.
You know why?
It's because of the treatment that a lot of "old vets" give the new accounts guys.
I wish that I had filmed it at the time, but I can give you an example of the treatment that is given to new players:
(text buffer, green ch.)
234552:"how do i fly the plane"
anyone that's been flying for a while:"STFU dweeb, use the README or go to the (nits/rooks/bish)"
234552:"could somebody help me"
any older "vet", again:"LMAO newb, please log. Come back when you have a real name."
I've always thought that quite a few players, when exposed to this type of behaviour, take this as the standard of the player base. They then make a choice: Do I stay and play this game(where people are treating them like a jerk) or do I adapt to this behaviour, play the game like they do, and treat people like they do? Or do I muddle through as best as I can?
I think that It's safe to say, to get the number of people currently playing the game, that HTC has lost almost 3x that number, for various reasons.
I think that It's really unfair to paint those that wish to play for a country win as the problem, when It's so many other factors.
If players would just think about the whole for 1 min., then It would be easy to send them to the TA. Which, BTW, is RR. It was designed by HTC to be exactly what lasz is describing. We don't need another one, we just need people to use the one we got.
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lazs
i laud your attempt to be constructive towards the betterment of AH2. but i (and i belive many of the others that monitor these boards) are curious as to the motive for this particular post. given your particular style of posting i am sure the is more than one 'troll' in that post, and a couple of thinly veiled insulting implcations towards some of your well known BBS targets. but i could be wrong, i have been wrong before so it wouldn't suprise me if i were reading to far into this thread but i don't think i am.
so my question to you lazs is simply this:
what is the intent of this post?
i highly doubt that you are full of concern towards other people's enjoyment of the game, and you have stated many times, as Lynx pointed out, that you have no interest in the slums of LW that EW and MW are your furballer's paradise. so why would changing the LW for the better matter to you? what makes lazs so concerned as to the skill level of the newbies in uber LW rides?
personally i think the answer to those questions is nothing. there is nothing at all that matters to you in the LW arenas. i think that it is nothing more than an attempt to get people to respond to your post so that you can reinstate your opinion of how fighter elite you are. and i am well aware of how i have given you exactly what you want, how i have opened the door for you to begin with your "skillless HO dweebs, borg squad, talentless horde" rants once again.
so have at lazs. sit down and rip into us win the war, "non dog fighting, hiding in numbers"guys have it. and i hope you enjoy it.
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I believe it's up to all the vet's including myself to set the example and help new-comers feel welcome to our beloved game.
No one likes to feel like an outsider or third wheel when thier in unfimiliar territory.
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Originally posted by jhookt
lazs
i laud your attempt to be constructive towards the betterment of AH2. but i (and i belive many of the others that monitor these boards) are curious as to the motive for this particular post. given your particular style of posting i am sure the is more than one 'troll' in that post, and a couple of thinly veiled insulting implcations towards some of your well known BBS targets. but i could be wrong, i have been wrong before so it wouldn't suprise me if i were reading to far into this thread but i don't think i am.
so my question to you lazs is simply this:
what is the intent of this post?
i highly doubt that you are full of concern towards other people's enjoyment of the game, and you have stated many times, as Lynx pointed out, that you have no interest in the slums of LW that EW and MW are your furballer's paradise. so why would changing the LW for the better matter to you? what makes lazs so concerned as to the skill level of the newbies in uber LW rides?
personally i think the answer to those questions is nothing. there is nothing at all that matters to you in the LW arenas. i think that it is nothing more than an attempt to get people to respond to your post so that you can reinstate your opinion of how fighter elite you are. and i am well aware of how i have given you exactly what you want, how i have opened the door for you to begin with your "skillless HO dweebs, borg squad, talentless horde" rants once again.
so have at lazs. sit down and rip into us win the war, "non dog fighting, hiding in numbers"guys have it. and i hope you enjoy it.
:aok jhookt for president!!!!!!!!!!!!--well said!!!!!---but it still won,t sink in.
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Originally posted by lazs2
lynx.... Bet there are no mirrors in your house eh?
Good idea? Bad idea? so far all you are saying is that it would take away numbers (water down) the late war? How could that be? it would be an anything goes arena with easy mode for real and out in the open instead of pretending the lw isn't now.
If it was a bad idea then none of the new guys or gamers would use it. Heck... it worked fine in other games like AW and the RR guys fit right in when they came here right?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
OK... I'm up for replying to the obsurdity of the above.
" so far all you are saying is that it would take away numbers (water down) the late war?"
Errr... yes thats right. What part of ...
" You wanna water down the LW so the guys that wanna use, AND THERE ARE PLENTY, early and mid planes have to go to other arenas."
was difficult to understand ? The part about many guys in LW still using early and mid planes ? Or the part about having to go to your underpopulated EW & MW arenas to actually use early and mid war planes ?, if you had your way.
How could that be? it would be an anything goes arena with easy mode for real and out in the open instead of pretending the lw isn't now.
Oh! pleeeeaassse! Just another cheap dig at LW. Hows that feline sound go..umm yes "meeoow".
Heck... it worked fine in other games like AW
Please do fill me in on the history of AW and why it no longer exists.
Unlike the rest of your squad that still frequent LW, you have nailed your colours to EW & MW as fighter furball heaven. I now put it to you that these arenas are underpopulated. You are bored with the same 6 to 30 guys in your beloved arenas. You just wanna turn up at one of these arenas (most populated prolly) and pop away at cons except theres no one there to "pop away at".
Lastly, mirror mirror on the wall who's the repetitive poster of them all ?
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Instead of relaxed realism, I think having an option to play offline against A.I. would make a big difference.
WB had it, so HT surely could do it again. I started my flying career by learning the ropes offline and only when I could hold my own at the hardest level offline I subscribed online. Live players added so much more variance in the gameplay that I was hooked forever.
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I wish they would, Moil. It's the major failing of the community, no matter how you like to play the game.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
lasz, I think in this case, we have to blame the vets as much as the newbs, due to the way that we treat the newbs.
You know why?
It's because of the treatment that a lot of "old vets" give the new accounts guys.
I wish that I had filmed it at the time, but I can give you an example of the treatment that is given to new players:
(text buffer, green ch.)
234552:"how do i fly the plane"
anyone that's been flying for a while:"STFU dweeb, use the README or go to the (nits/rooks/bish)"
234552:"could somebody help me"
any older "vet", again:"LMAO newb, please log. Come back when you have a real name."
I apologize for re-opening the stale can-of-worms, BUT:
Because of this example of intolerance for newbies, how do you think the larger squads got to be so sizeable? I bet you anything that almost everyone that stumbled across our squad channel while learning this game found us to be courteous, fun, respectful, and patient, so long as those qualities were returned in kind.
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CC, Egg. I guess I should have added that we all were number guys, once. And we should treat them as if it were ourselves, being talked to that way.
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lazs the point of the changes was to make it easier for new players to FIND people that will teach them how to play the game properly..... thats going to take a few months to work its way up
a RR server will just make it worse and more gamey.
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no doubt egg, that way your vets in the bops can fly around in an insular cloud of noobiewoobiecanes.
the minute someone engages these mulitple contacts I'm sure over vox they hear the famous mighty mouse mantra "HERE I COME TO SAVE THE DAY" and your hero swoops in to save all 6 of your noobiewoobiecaners from the lone intrepid attacker.
we've seen it happen many times. spare me the idealistic spin on your philosophy of AH play, you guys simply like hordes.
having just typed that though you are within every right to have a 90+ member squad and anyone paying their US$14.95 is entitled to play any way they choose.
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frode has a good piont.
im no vet, ive only played the game 10 months, but wen i joined i was well embraced (lucky,) i was picked up by a nice, friendly squad ( 367th dynamite gang) and my gameplay has come leaps and bounds thanks to their help and support. I'm now a regualr player of the game and help out new guys as much as i can.
perhaps TA needs to be advertised a bit better tho, nd maybe a simpler format in there rather than the complicated stuff that bogs you down,
maybe the new game will help training tho, im not sure.
Also wooh lynx, good piont. i really enjoy the LW and always play there, fine think im a horder, or w/e, but i pay my 15$ to play how i want,, nd dont really care if im a horder in some guy sittting behind a PC fighting the dust in MW or EW opinion, every1 pays their 15$ to do what they want... so let them.
also maybe poll's should be intorduced to see what everyone really thinks about how AH is atm and were it should go, and about upcoming possible changes, like the new arena format wich came out of nowhere :) anyway,
regards.
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jhookit.. the intent of my post should have been laid out in my first post.
Now, that I have answered your question... Can I ask? What was the intent of your post?
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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mr. ripley has a valid point. however the AI arena should be a paying arena. HT would lose out on alot of cash with a more challenging arena.
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Originally posted by lazs2
How bout a "Relaxed realism" arena? No stalls/spins that sort of thing... maybe easier gunnery... outside views..
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
Pretty sure this idea was pitched a year or so ago. Also pretty sure that HT was thumbs down on any RR arenas.
While it does have some appeal for the noobie point-n-shoot player types, it won't ever provide them the means of conquering the curve.
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max... I agree that for most it will not give them a stepping stone... only a small percent will leave once there.. Most people are sheep.. they won't leave this squad or that or this chess piece or that but...
Not all... some will move up. they will be worth having. As it is now... the ones who would have stayed.. the sheep... go to the real arenas and do the sheep thing in them. same RR behavior except now we all have to see it.
RR would allow the sheep to mill around together and stay in their own pen and any who left would be worth having. instead of like now... we get em all... huge clumps of em.
The reason RR didn't work before was that it siphoned off a lot of players (most are sheep remember). This was bad when two or three sims were going strong and competing meaning.... there were only a couple hundred or less on at one time in any sim... lose too many to RR and... no sim.
Now we have 600 on at a time in prime.. RR would attract even more... so... say you had 1000 on in prime and 400 were RR.... that would mean that both RR and FR would be improved... with people who liked their place.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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All of the arenas are RR now, anyone remember pre-1.04?
shamus
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RR is viable............... folk will go play there when they want more arcadia.
(RR had nothing to do with the demise of AW)
It does split the community however. I doubt that this is what HT is after.
Some may argue the community is already split however there is a difference between differing player preferances and differing gameplay environments and arenas.
You can read elsewhere how moving from RR to FR was considered a serious step in player development.............. with no RR this does not exist.
To some extent the two can mix together.. min AOA is settable within the main arenas if a player so chooses.
I think the key point is that there is no need for an RR arena. Such an arena simply "lowers the bar" below a level that works very well now.
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Originally posted by Shamus
All of the arenas are RR now, anyone remember pre-1.04?
shamus
Uhm, IIRC, pre-1.04 energy management meant something.
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yes.. I recall that.. was that way for a week or so when I got here.... all the flight models were wrong in that all the planes turned at pretty much the same rate.
"energy management" was to allways be higher and to never slow down.. if a plane was low then everyone dove down... took a sissy little kick at him and ran like hell before some other "energy manager" dove on them...
And why not? the guy couldn't use any acm to turn even if he was in a zeke.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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/agree with Lazs2
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Originally posted by lazs2
RR would allow the sheep to mill around together and stay in their own pen and any who left would be worth having. instead of like now... we get em all... huge clumps of em.
"Worth having" as defined by whose standards, oh let me guess...sigh.
I'm pretty sure HT considers all paying customers "worth having".
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I'm pretty sure HT considers all paying customers "worth having".
Acctualy I don't, If I did, I would never kick someone out of the game.
The word all should be almost all.
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Originally posted by lazs2
"energy management" was to allways be higher and to never slow down..
lazs
Well, you can even be lower but you have to be fast enuff :) BTW, you can find your (ironic) description of E management in almost all the texts describing air combat. Real or virtual. From Shaw to DocDoom. From Spick to the old good Vigl. Now furballing with little strat is the key to rise customers base. Or so it seems.
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Originally posted by hitech
Acctualy I don't, If I did, I would never kick someone out of the game.
The word all should be almost all.
OK, but I was close :) .
Perhaps I should have said "All worth having" as long as they are behaving themsleves.
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Originally posted by gatt
. Now furballing with little strat is the key to rise customers base. Or so it seems.
I think the mistake that continually gets made in these discussions is that this is purely a furball vs Strat argument.
I think that what it comes down to is getting all types of players to interact within the arenas instead of having different groups avoiding each other in different corners of the map, both style wise and country wise.
It still appears that there are players that gravitate to the high number countries and do it in large numbers that throw off the balance.
But it also appears that the social aspect of the game that HTC has made mention of, has gotten better in the arenas with the lower caps, as folks are getting to know each other.
I suppose, instead of an RR arena, that maybe an "intro to AH Arena" existed. I think some folks chafe at the idea of a 'training arena".
It could be an arena where training folks and vets could hang out to help, points and perks didn't exist, Squads couldn't form, and maybe there was an FAQ that came up on intro.
When someone signs up for their two week trial, their first login directs them to this arena. Hopefully the basic questions could be answered and then on their next login, they'd have the choice to go to any of the arenas or they could return on their own to the 'intro arena' for thier questions to get answered etc.
It would be a way in which the training folks and helpful vets could set out the 'welcome wagon' to AH and hopefully set the tone for new folks coming in.
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Not a new idea and imho a very bad one.
Look at the games that do have a RR arena. 90% of all online players are in the RR while the realistic arena is empty.
I much rather choose between LWA of 120, EW of 20 and MW of 15 as it is now in EU hours then choosing between RRLWA 100, LWA 20, EW 20 and MW 15.
Move the noobs to the RR and the avg pilots will follow when they do so will the vets.
I sincearly hope HT wount ever do a RR as its one of the worst ideas there is from my personal perspective.
Tex
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Originally posted by hitech
Acctualy I don't, If I did, I would never kick someone out of the game.
The word all should be almost all.
This deserves repeating. There are some customers that are NOT worth having. They tie up more time and resources than they pay for or deserve, they constantly complain, and they will NEVER be satisfied.
I am not talking about AH specifically or even anything in computer-land. This is common to all capitalism-driven transactions.
Anecdotally, they can even ruin your business, even if you give them what they ask for. As an example, someone I know runs a sports summer-camp business. One of the camper's mothers complained repeatedly about something that did not even happen at camp, demanding a refund. The owner finally gave in and refunded her money, at which point the woman xeroxed the check and sent it and a letter to every other camper's address, telling them to complain and they would get their money back. How's that for a worthless customer?
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I am trying to remember. Did they not have a relaxed realism arena in Warbirds? I don’t know (remember) how successful it was. Seems to me it satisfied a select group of customers. The numbers in that arena if I am remembering correctly were never very large, but I don't see that as a bad thing. The Snapshot events usually have 20 to 60 players. Not big in numbers, but it satisfies a nitch. Events don’t hurt the MA in anyway so am not sure how a RR arena could hurt the MA.
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RR in a seperate arena is a bad idea daddog. Infact a version of it was why I left IENT.
But also do not asume RR would realy aleviate the learning curve. Flying the plane is only a very small part of the learning curve.
When you compare the flying part vs what it takes to learn how to shoot someone down, the flying is almost minor.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
RR in a seperate arena is a bad idea daddog. Infact a version of it was why I left IENT.
But also do not asume RR would realy aleviate the learning curve. Flying the plane is only a very small part of the learning curve.
When you compare the flying part vs what it takes to learn how to shoot someone down, the flying is almost minor.
HiTech
True, oh soooo true... LOL
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RR in a seperate arena is a bad idea daddog. Infact a version of it was why I left IENT.
But also do not asume RR would realy aleviate the learning curve. Flying the plane is only a very small part of the learning curve.
When you compare the flying part vs what it takes to learn how to shoot someone down, the flying is almost minor.
Wow. That surprises me. Well, you know better than I. I will pick your brain about it at the next con to understand better why you say that. :)
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Originally posted by lazs2
yes.. I recall that.. was that way for a week or so when I got here.... all the flight models were wrong in that all the planes turned at pretty much the same rate.
"energy management" was to allways be higher and to never slow down.. if a plane was low then everyone dove down... took a sissy little kick at him and ran like hell before some other "energy manager" dove on them...
And why not? the guy couldn't use any acm to turn even if he was in a zeke.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
Well thats a weeks worth talking, the models were far from the same.
Energy management was ya cant just yank and bank, drop the nose and hit wep for 10 seconds and regain all your energy.
Laz, hate to bust your bubble but you are a RR weenie.
shamus
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Originally posted by daddog
I am trying to remember. Did they not have a relaxed realism arena in Warbirds? I don’t know (remember) how successful it was. Seems to me it satisfied a select group of customers. The numbers in that arena if I am remembering correctly were never very large, but I don't see that as a bad thing. The Snapshot events usually have 20 to 60 players. Not big in numbers, but it satisfies a nitch. Events don’t hurt the MA in anyway so am not sure how a RR arena could hurt the MA.
AOL Fighter Op's was sold to or moved to warbirds. It was RR. External views no black/red outs, kills at D800 yrds common etc. WB had another arena at the time. The settings were like we have now but "Combat Trim OFF".
The transition from RR to the other (can't for the life of me remember whats it was called) was a real bugger. So hard to trim in combat. Fiddling with the key board. I don't even know if you could map the trims to your stick there. All I remember was it was real tuff. Tuffer than we have it here. Also the guys were Elitist. You were virtually stone walled if u mentioned being a newbie or from the Fighter Ops arena. Stuck up bunch of B@#$%^ds:mad:
Fighter Ops did allow both styles of flight near the end. You could tell "Trim" planes easy because they out turned all the RR guys. You had to be a good RR guy to kill the average "Trimmer".
Perhaps we should have a really tuff arena. No Icons. Smaller bullets / damage register pixels doofffers. No auto trim. No auto pilot. Harder than ya arse WB style arena.
Sorry for swearing HTC.
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Lets have a chili cook-off
:aok
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Maybe something more on the lines of the AW "New User Arena". Put trainers on duty there... It was way to many years ago, But it was for new players only, no "Vets" running around killing them. The arena was just like the others, the new guys was able to play the game and to come understand how things worked.
But once they scored xxxx number of points, they was locked out and had to move on the main arenas and the real war.
CAVALRY
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My take on the idea:
It's an interesting idea but it wouldn't be needed if every "vet" took one new player under his or her wing and teach the basics of ACM. With that said, I don't think its a good idea.
just my 2 cents
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Originally posted by Shamus
Well thats a weeks worth talking, the models were far from the same.
Energy management was ya cant just yank and bank, drop the nose and hit wep for 10 seconds and regain all your energy.
Laz, hate to bust your bubble but you are a RR weenie.
shamus
:aok shamus!!
EW is as close to rr as it gets in here...flying f4f's and fm2 and "amazing" folks outturning more popular planes...can it be anymore yank and bank???
and does anyone in here not know that the earlier war planes turn easier with less effort?????
i like EW....nice break from tougher fights....guys fly low...slow planes and furballs with trgts everywhere...no need to learn the art of alt fighting and hurricanes ho everything in sight while 109s and 190s boom-n-zoom right and left....(btw wasnt the hurri2 a popular plane in the old ma?? need to check the stats!..it was because you could up and turn quickly into enemy and use your cannon capriciously)
anytime i need a k/d ratio boost i go to early war...quick kills and great ratios
:aok
ahh one other thing...if i remember correctly the reason Full realism was never popular was because it was an underpopulated arena..wasnt that hard to move from rr to fr (whole squad did it when we came to AH from AW)...but there were more people in RR...and the guys in FR were "hardcore ww2 reenactors"...they werent into furballing as much as staying alive and using alt etc for advantage...i personally found it unsatisfying
here is another little tidbit....if you think by playing this game for years means you can hop into a p51 and fly it for real...you are wrong:rolleyes:
this is ALL relaxed realism...no offense but you need more then a joystick with programmable buttons and a keyboard to fly a plane;) but keeping pretending your a reallife fiter jock...if you type it enough someone may believe it:aok
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Originally posted by Nightshift82
My take on the idea:
It's an interesting idea but it wouldn't be needed if every "vet" took one new player under his or her wing and teach the basics of ACM. With that said, I don't think its a good idea.
just my 2 cents
I've done that and actually one of the guys later became a member of the AH training squad. But I've noticed that I only helped the guys with personality. The non-typing 20448 named guy doesn't endorse activity.
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RR was gay in AW and its still gay.
Lets not turn AH into some "Crimson Skies" joke. If folks want a dumbed down less hard sim they can fire up their Xboxes and drive NASCAR.
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The *real* problem is that in *reality* the planes was easier to fly
than in FR.
NOT easy like RR, but easier than FR.
FR was overmodeled toughness just for game purposes. Or just ignorance.
HT, with the hand on hart, was the AW FR pony the same with the pony
you had fly before 3-4 years ?
Whats the differences of today AHII pony with the pony you had fly ?
ps The only real plane near to FR flying model was the F-104 starfighter ;)
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Originally posted by Hades55
The *real* problem is that in *reality* the planes was easier to fly
than in FR.
NOT easy like RR, but easier than FR.
FR was overmodeled toughness just for game purposes. Or just ignorance.
HT, with the hand on hart, was the AW FR pony the same with the pony
you had fly before 3-4 years ?
Whats the differences of today AHII pony with the pony you had fly ?
ps The only real plane near to FR flying model was the F-104 starfighter ;)
Okay, genious, if the real thing is easier to fly than in a "full realism" flight sim, why don't you go down to the airport, hop in the cockpit of a P-51 and we'll see how you do. Something tells me you can't even get the engine started.
:lol
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
lasz, I think in this case, we have to blame the vets as much as the newbs, due to the way that we treat the newbs.
You know why?
It's because of the treatment that a lot of "old vets" give the new accounts guys.
I wish that I had filmed it at the time, but I can give you an example of the treatment that is given to new players:
(text buffer, green ch.)
234552:"how do i fly the plane"
anyone that's been flying for a while:"STFU dweeb, use the README or go to the (nits/rooks/bish)"
234552:"could somebody help me"
any older "vet", again:"LMAO newb, please log. Come back when you have a real name."
I've always thought that quite a few players, when exposed to this type of behaviour, take this as the standard of the player base. They then make a choice: Do I stay and play this game(where people are treating them like a jerk) or do I adapt to this behaviour, play the game like they do, and treat people like they do? Or do I muddle through as best as I can?
I think that It's safe to say, to get the number of people currently playing the game, that HTC has lost almost 3x that number, for various reasons.
I think that It's really unfair to paint those that wish to play for a country win as the problem, when It's so many other factors.
If players would just think about the whole for 1 min., then It would be easy to send them to the TA. Which, BTW, is RR. It was designed by HTC to be exactly what lasz is describing. We don't need another one, we just need people to use the one we got.
didnt read any further than this post, but golly, its jaded.
i have never once seen 'vets' treating newbs like this. almost everyone, including the 'evil' furballers, are helpfull and fun dedicated in this game.
seriously, when was the last time you played?
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Originally posted by Stang
Okay, genious, if the real thing is easier to fly than in a "full realism" flight sim, why don't you go down to the airport, hop in the cockpit of a P-51 and we'll see how you do. Something tells me you can't even get the engine started.
:lol
OK, you won my attention, now kid, get lost ;)
HT i wait a answer about the real pony if you please..
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Originally posted by Hades55
ps The only real plane near to FR flying model was the F-104 starfighter ;)
Im jellous... I which that I as well had flown all planes irl so I could be part of this interesting discussion...
Tex
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shamus.. falc... are you saying that a zeke should not be able to outturn a 109 say?
The models were wrong and got changed to match real data. I was only there a week or so but that was enough for me to see something was really wrong. You guys like to talk about "real war" yet you want an arena where the only thing is energy management and acm is worthless?
shaw..met him.. docdoom.. blowhard..never fought him that I didn't wipe the floor with him in any flight sim and... I ain't but mediocer... met carr and a lot of real wwII fighter pilots... they did stuff that we are afraid to do... they climbed up to the enemy for instance... they fought 3 on ones or more.. they fought in inferior planes and didn't care. they upped from capped fields...
your wussy ideas of "real" are an insult to those men.
falc.. I have seen you in EW... you don't take the slow planes you take 190's and spit5 ... in the old MA you took la7 allmost exclusively or tigers...
I really don't need a lecture from you on easy mode. If there was a plane easier than than the ones you chose now you would switch to it.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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LYNX: Who do you think wrote Fighter Ops?
As far as the real thing vs the sim, I would say the real thing is generaly easyier.
But do not take that to meen that just because you can fly the sim, you can fly the real thing. Some things translate accross, some do not.
But the dog fight is almost directly transferable once your brain gets aclumated to a forein enviorment.
Hades55: Im not exatly sure what your question is.
HiTech
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Originally posted by hitech
LYNX: Who do you think wrote Fighter Ops?
As far as the real thing vs the sim, I would say the real thing is generally easier.
But do not take that to mean that just because you can fly the sim, you can fly the real thing. Some things translate across, some do not.
But the dog fight is almost directly transferable once your brain gets accumulated to a foreign environment.
Hades55: I'm not exactly sure what your question is.
HiTech
Yer I know you wrote Fighter Ops. I believe it was leased to AOL. I could be wrong on this part but wasn't it's return to WB partly why you left IEN or what ever their called.
Question though..... WB other arena was it harder than the settings we use now. Combat trim off + other stuff ? Or have the 300,000 gallons of beer damaged my memory cells these last 5 yrs?
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Originally posted by lazs2
shamus.. falc... are you saying that a zeke should not be able to outturn a 109 say?
The models were wrong and got changed to match real data. I was only there a week or so but that was enough for me to see something was really wrong. You guys like to talk about "real war" yet you want an arena where the only thing is energy management and acm is worthless?
shaw..met him.. docdoom.. blowhard..never fought him that I didn't wipe the floor with him in any flight sim and... I ain't but mediocer... met carr and a lot of real wwII fighter pilots... they did stuff that we are afraid to do... they climbed up to the enemy for instance... they fought 3 on ones or more.. they fought in inferior planes and didn't care. they upped from capped fields...
your wussy ideas of "real" are an insult to those men.
falc.. I have seen you in EW... you don't take the slow planes you take 190's and spit5 ... in the old MA you took la7 allmost exclusively or tigers...
I really don't need a lecture from you on easy mode. If there was a plane easier than than the ones you chose now you would switch to it.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
dont think i have flown but one 190 all tour...ill check my stats
and if you think a la7 is a better dogfiter then the planes you fly then give me a hurri1 or 2 or f4f and you take a la7 and lets turnfight....
if you feel you can outfly me in a spit5 (since its easy mode to you ) then lets go to the DA and prove it
point being is that you cant...you fly all the slow turners that will outturn faster planes if they choose to get slow and turnfight with you...what makes them easy is that you dont have to slow them down to get quick turns..they are already mostly there...you want others to fly the same planes in the same way....and thats why i agree with shamus that you are a RR pilot...you in essence strive to recreate that Air Warrior environment of limited planes and similar combat experiences.
lazs i have already said that i believe the reason you need ew is because you arent comfortable with the multidimenisional fights that flying late war planes in such an arena require....i also believe that some of it is because of your need for game arcade instant fight flying...you dont want to take a full tank of fuel and climb out and encounter the multifaceted opportunities this game presents....and it upsets you to no end if someone has taken time to gain advantage with alt or position...in essence you want a DA without the pressures of one where someone is specifically waiting for you and you have to engage on even terms...
when i have encounterd you in EW and MW you are hanging back near your airfield and popping in to pick other guys off who are already engaged. you never even head towards the enemy field..im guessing because you have taken a very light fuel load...hey its all fair bud...you arent cheating or gaming anyone...but dont pretend you are a great fiter pilot or interested in "fair" fights.
:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by FALCONWING
when i have encounterd you in EW and MW you are hanging back near your airfield and popping in to pick other guys off who are already engaged. you never even head towards the enemy field..im guessing because you have taken a very light fuel load...hey its all fair bud...you arent cheating or gaming anyone...but dont pretend you are a great fiter pilot or interested in "fair" fights.
:rolleyes:
Laz been BUSTED!
A Kill has been Recorded!
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Originally posted by Shamus
All of the arenas are RR now, anyone remember pre-1.04?
shamus
Laz,
This was my original comment, you chose to argue with it and try and explain how it was wrong.
I know how futile it is to try and convince you of anything so think what you want.
But when you say that all the planes had the same flight model pre-1.04, I say rubbish.
shamus
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when i have encounterd you in EW and MW you are hanging back near your airfield and popping in to pick other guys off who are already engaged. you never even head towards the enemy field..im guessing because you have taken a very light fuel load...hey its all fair bud...you arent cheating or gaming anyone...but dont pretend you are a great fiter pilot or interested in "fair" fights.
A very poor assessment after only a handful of encounters. I could say the same about you after the brief encounter that we had last week, but that would not be either fair or true.
Lazs has always stated that he is an "average" fighter pilot ... and he is right :p ... but he will always fight ... thats guaranteed.
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I stallfought Lazer's Spit IX in an LA-7 the other day, never got above 125 mph, and utterly dominated his Spit with the LA. He never even had a chance to get a shot.
You guys who think stallfighting is all about turning rates truly have your heads in the sand. It is a big factor, but you are limiting yourself to only 2 axis. Add the 3rd, the vertical, and a whole new world of ACM opens up. With the LA's uber accleration and low speed climb rate, even from a stall, it totally dominated the IX.
That plane should never have to run from anything. Even a Spit XVI. It's simply incredible what it can do, fast and slow. Shane would back me up on that.
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That 'other' sim that was purchased then destroyed, Air Warrior, had that type of setup. It had relaxed realism and full realism arenas. It worked then with the RR arena always having more people than FR (but the people in FR didn't mind).
Regards,
Malta
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falc... I allways take between half and three quarters fuel... that is allways enough to run me out of ammo. I am not a great shot... I rarely go over 2k above ground level.. no real point.
As for your idiotic lala7 defense. you must be kidding.. You can take a hurri or an f4f and me the la la and you will never win. I will B&Z you and never risk a thing. I will have the easiest and most boring time of my life.
And... you pick the spit 5 because you can't fight in the slow planes because you can't run away... that is RR to me.
you are right that I prefer fighting closer to my base or at least... half way point... the reason is quite simple... the closer the fight the sooner I get into it and....
With your type around... all I will find if I fly all the way to your field is fast planes with alt because your ilk has allready killed the dot dar..
In the fight we were in together your guys had slight numbers and were accomadating by coming to us. You guys came in with alt and died so....
you proved another of your theories about furballs wrong by coming in low on the water and zooming up at the last minute.... you have espoused that this was what we furballers do and is "easy".... you died ever time you tried and didn't kill anything.
so dockelly (if you are a doc)... it is not I who is busted but your hero. Maybe you should look at his stats on what he flys and what he kills...
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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Originally posted by doc1kelley
Laz been BUSTED!
A Kill has been Recorded!
you have to remember that lazs has NEVER EVER said that capturing a field or vulching is what he wants, so why would he be flying towards a field?
anyway that myth is busted because he does fly within them fights, not picking like u see in LW.... ive seen it already and i have only ever flown with him once (last night). Just a shame EW rides bore me so much (prefer MW planes, in LW arena ;)).
anyway, lazs, was a small pleasure flying with you for once, and not having a heated discussion here lol
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Originally posted by hitech
LYNX: Who do you think wrote Fighter Ops?
As far as the real thing vs the sim, I would say the real thing is generaly easyier.
But do not take that to meen that just because you can fly the sim, you can fly the real thing. Some things translate accross, some do not.
But the dog fight is almost directly transferable once your brain gets aclumated to a forein enviorment.
Hades55: Im not exatly sure what your question is.
HiTech
HT thanks, you have already answer my question..
( As far as the real thing vs the sim, I would say the real thing is generaly easyier. ).
Ofcourse its not the same thing, sim and real flight. No one says that.
When i say easier i mean in numbers *Like* (just hypothetical) .....
real pony stalls @ 120, FR stalls @ 180, real FW stalls @ 120, FR @ 180.
TY for your answer.
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I dont think its the statistics of the plane that HT referes to when he says that its easier to fly irl.
Since Im not a pilot Im only doing assumptions but I would assume it is the connection between the controlls and the plane that make it easier. In a sim you have to simulate alot of things that you feel when flying. These simulations feel unnatural and hence make the experience of flying much less natural and hence harder.
Just my guess.
Tex
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Originally posted by lazs2
falc... I allways take between half and three quarters fuel... that is allways enough to run me out of ammo. I am not a great shot... I rarely go over 2k above ground level.. no real point.
As for your idiotic lala7 defense. you must be kidding.. You can take a hurri or an f4f and me the la la and you will never win. I will B&Z you and never risk a thing. I will have the easiest and most boring time of my life.
And... you pick the spit 5 because you can't fight in the slow planes because you can't run away... that is RR to me.
you are right that I prefer fighting closer to my base or at least... half way point... the reason is quite simple... the closer the fight the sooner I get into it and....
With your type around... all I will find if I fly all the way to your field is fast planes with alt because your ilk has allready killed the dot dar..
In the fight we were in together your guys had slight numbers and were accomadating by coming to us. You guys came in with alt and died so....
you proved another of your theories about furballs wrong by coming in low on the water and zooming up at the last minute.... you have espoused that this was what we furballers do and is "easy".... you died ever time you tried and didn't kill anything.
so dockelly (if you are a doc)... it is not I who is busted but your hero. Maybe you should look at his stats on what he flys and what he kills...
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
lol again you rewrite history....i have the films of that night dear sir and i killed everything that moved...when i finally made it to your field you were hiding near the ack and waited til a higher hurricane enaged me to come in and pick me...please!!!!
furboll (hubs) knows how to post films...please tell me when you would like it posted?
oldmn was there as well and he seem slike a fair guy...i hope he is willing to post how often i had any alt at all...great fights with him tho and he at least continued to up...you logged...
and when did a spit5 become a "fast" plane??? thats pretty funny...the 109s and 190s need to fear me in EW i guess.
and you made my point exactly...you could not hope to use a la7 as a turnfiter but instead only know how to use it as a B-n-Z plane. thats why you dont fly it...you cant...
btw i just checked my film folder and i have the film...hubs let me know who to send it too please...thanks
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Hardly surprising...
I know, but this would be a shocking revelation to 99% of LA-7 drivers...
Back to the purse fight now.
:D
Edit: lol Kev you delete the post?
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Sorry yup, but I thought I had dragged things slightly off topic, lol.
Will try and recount -
Noy surprising -
Spit IX - 1942 high alt motor
La7 1944 - low alt motor
La7 has all the advantage in speed/acceleration
Take the La7 to the IX's best alt 25k and up, see how well it does.
As for the XVI -
Acceleration up to top speed is almost identical to La7s time to same speed after which the La7 higher top end kicks in.
Now what if the XVI was at 25lbs boost -
+24mph up to 8000ft, and a climb rate off the runway exceeding 5700fpm (even better accleration than what is has now).
Much better match up. (5700fpm was the exact reason we never got the XVI at 25lbs)
Only Spit close to being in the ballpark is the XIV, but yet again its a high alt Spit. (and perked)
Never get a Spit with close to the same performance down low in AH2 as the La7, if their was it would perked to ludicrous levels.
Or how about one that cruises around at 460mph @ 21k and has 4 nasty hizookas attached to it. (not the Spit ones, ones the Tempest has)
Did I miss anything Stang?
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Originally posted by lazs2
they did stuff that we are afraid to do... they climbed up to the enemy for instance... they fought 3 on ones or more.. they fought in inferior planes and didn't care. they upped from capped fields...
Your describing exactly what furballers and dweebs do in AH's arenas, before they are shot down by enemies with higher E, SA and strenght, that is :)
I doubt a lot they were used to be cought with pants down, biting each other tail, low and slow, between two fields. Did they?
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falc... what's the matter? I never seen you that you weren't higher and faster than me... the time I shot you down you were full out on the deck and the "hurricane" you zoomed up at was not attacking you...in fact I told him you were there.. he didn't even know. I followed you up and you were fixated on him and died. Not much skill on either of our parts.
You have fought me once in the arena... but.. you know all about me right? I have flown with ranger too.. ask him how I do it... overlag is not exactly one of my fans but I spent a good deal of time with him and he doesn't confirm what you say..
Now... you can't take any critisism.. you are hardly "LOL" you act like your honor is at stake or something.. Sheesh... oldman is a great guy.. he never says anything bad about anyone no matter how they get the kill... I can bet that I have fought and flown with him a lot more than you have..
Ok... so now I insulted the hero... I expect a lot of hero worship kids to come unglued over it..
In the old MA you flew lalas... probly still do in the lw... I never ran into you because I was never that high and avoided whordes. we don't travel in the same circles... don't pretend that we do and that you know anything about furballs.
Gatt... I have plenty of stories where real fighter pilots did indeed get into furballs that were a confusing swirling mess and they did climb to the enemy and all that dweeby stuff. They didn't fly like you "realism" buffs tho.. they flew in finger fours and wingman positions. Nothing you do is any more "realistic" than the lowest slowest furball.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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i have never once seen 'vets' treating newbs like this. almost everyone, including the 'evil' furballers, are helpfull and fun dedicated in this game.
Fink, I'm sorry to say, I've seen people treated that way even after the latest arena change. Now, I fly for the bishops all the time, And I'd developed the theory that alot of the new accounts wind up there first...
Henceforth, Maybe why you haven't witnessed it. But on the other side of the coin, I've talked with people who used to fly knight or rook, that said they had the same treatment on that side of the fence.
IMHO, we should pretend that AH is like our own house, and when new players log in the first time, treat them as welcome guests. It would not kill anyone to act the part of the host, would it?
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Fink, I'm sorry to say, I've seen people treated that way even after the latest arena change. Now, I fly for the bishops all the time, And I'd developed the theory that alot of the new accounts wind up there first...
Henceforth, Maybe why you haven't witnessed it. But on the other side of the coin, I've talked with people who used to fly knight or rook, that said they had the same treatment on that side of the fence.
I fly all 3. All 3 sides are the same. The *ONLY* difference is the shape of their icon.
Most people ignore newbies (to be fair... gets hard to type & fight at times), some people are nice to newbies, but there's a small percentage of ub3r 1337 pwnage salamanders. Happens in every game. It's even worse in other games. Lots of FPS game server admins will kick you just for being a newbie.
The problem is the salamanders stand out in your mind more than the nice guys, even though there's probably a lot less of them than anybody else.
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Originally posted by Overlag
you have to remember that lazs has NEVER EVER said that capturing a field or vulching is what he wants, so why would he be flying towards a field?
anyway that myth is busted because he does fly within them fights, not picking like u see in LW.... ive seen it already and i have only ever flown with him once (last night). Just a shame EW rides bore me so much (prefer MW planes, in LW arena ;)).
anyway, lazs, was a small pleasure flying with you for once, and not having a heated discussion here lol
Well OverLag, we were in MW and he was in a tiffy.
All the Best...
Jay
awDoc1
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Originally posted by doc1kelley
Well OverLag, we were in MW and he was in a tiffy.
All the Best...
Jay
awDoc1
and ?
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Originally posted by SlapShot
and ?
Be careful.
You might not be able to handle the answer ;) :aok
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I have flown tempests before and chased down the "strat" guys out of boredom in the old MA... If you seen me in a typhoon in the MW arena then I would say that you are... ah.... mistaken..
If you check my stats for the last tour (where there was a MW) you will see that while I did kill 2 typhoons.... I did it in FM2's and that I have neither killed while in a typhoon nor have I died in one which, given my kills per hour and kills per sortie would show anyone that I simply have not flown one in MW.
I have no idea who you think I am in the arena but it is simply "lazs" If you are judging how I fly and don't even know what my handle is then that could be the problem.
lazs
Public Relations Officer for the BK's
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I belive this one is just cooked.
HiTech