Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JB88 on October 31, 2006, 12:45:55 AM
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video (http://itpolicy.princeton.edu/voting/)
i thought this was an interesting and decided to share.
i think that it is a worthwhile study and i hope that those who respond to this post will refrain from throwing out party line.
imho. how we elect our leaders is important and its honesty is imperative.
but that's just me.
thanks.
88
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(http://orlyowl.com/upload/files/Damn_Hackers_Owl.gif)
rofl i just r34d that one of the companies that makes teh v0t1ng mashines wuz bought by venezuelans:noid :O :noid :furious :confused: :eek: :lol :cry :huh
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Princeton did it the tricky way.
Let grandma Bev Harris show you the ridiculously easy way to steal an election (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FhMUtzOxjJY).
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Look at the comments..
http://www.youtube.com/comment_servlet?all_comments&v=FhMUtzOxjJY&fromurl=/watch%3Fv%3DFhMUtzOxjJY
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so thats how Kerry got so many votes, i always wondered.
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(http://www.rosecity.net/al_gore/manual_vote_count.jpg)
so how are they gonna recount hacked electronic votes? LOL
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Nearly all of the places these machines are being put in are democratic counties. The democratic leadership in those counties needed to make a concsious decision to put those machines in over the old ones.
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The integrity of our voting system is absolutely essential. Hacking the voting machines makes little difference if we're gonna let ineligibles vote. What's all the fuss about a national ID card? Who here doesn't already have a driver's license? If you are opposed to a national ID please tell why and please make it more concrete than something nebulous about big brother.
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A national ID with it's accompanying reference number could do much to eliminate fraud in voting. If there was suspected hacking of a voting machine or other voting fraud it would be a simple matter to confirm the actual vote with voters. To prevent folks from manipulating the system by lying about hacking, manadatory prison sentences for voter fraud.
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Another idea, everyone has a voter ID card and reference number. Info linking an individual to their reference number is protected by law. After an election publish the results and all of the votes by reference number on the web. Everyone can then verify that their vote was properly counted.
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Voter confidence is just as important to our country as Homeland Security IMHO.
In early voting in S. Florida there was a glitch in a machine (verified by poll workers) wherein each time the Democratic voter made his selection, the machine registered a Republican vote!
What the heck is this? My daughter has a toy computer that will acurately register a key stroke 100 out of 100 times. Why can't a voting machine do what a toy will do with complete accuracy? Liberal conspiracy theorists feed on this kind of thing, and I can't blame them for jumping all over it.
I think we need to spend whatever it takes to fix problems and create voter confidence, I think we ought to make national legislation to compell all voting in the country to be done the same way, on the same machines, selected, proven and acceptable to everyone.
While we're at it, throw out the plurality method of voting and institute the Condorcet method after educating the public, from elementary school on up.
I absolutely agree with voter ID. Its preposterous to argue against it.
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The way it's done in europe is that each voter has to display a valid ID before entering the voting booth. You then vote anonymously, drop the vote in the ballot and they will be counted anonymously.
If a voting is done electronically WITH voter ID the vote is no longer anonymous and this is very very bad for freedom of selection. All sorts of pressure could (and would) be put on people who voted against the winning party, or more likely, voters would be pressured before the vote to vote in a certain way, knowing the naysayers could be tracked afterwards.
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The way it's done in europe is that each voter has to display a valid ID before entering the voting booth. You then vote anonymously, drop the vote in the ballot and they will be counted anonymously. - Mr Ripley
this is how I'd like to see done in the US... I don't know if using electronic machines that store votes digitally is the best way, though, given the high levels of suspicion of political mischief.
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I forgot to mention also that each voter has his voting district and he can usually only give his vote on a listed voting station. Every voter is registered and counted, but what they vote is naturally not traceable unless every person in the whole district would vote the same. :p
When the votes count, the amount of votes is matched against the registered votees. If there are too many votes, someone's been cheating.
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The problem is that when you have very political people running the counties and the polling stations, they can then control what happens.
And this is how half of all dead people end up voting. Mostly for democrats at that.
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As I mentioned, the reference number, which is listed publicly to allow voters to review their votes on line, is protected. It's even possible that the link from person's identity to their reference number is known by no human being but created by and stored in a machine. Anytime someone believes their number is compromised they may simply request a new one.
What could be more cheat proof than everyone being able to count the votes themselves while verifying theirs was registered as desired?
Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
The way it's done in europe is that each voter has to display a valid ID before entering the voting booth. You then vote anonymously, drop the vote in the ballot and they will be counted anonymously.
If a voting is done electronically WITH voter ID the vote is no longer anonymous and this is very very bad for freedom of selection. All sorts of pressure could (and would) be put on people who voted against the winning party, or more likely, voters would be pressured before the vote to vote in a certain way, knowing the naysayers could be tracked afterwards.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
The problem is that when you have very political people running the counties and the polling stations, they can then control what happens.
And this is how half of all dead people end up voting. Mostly for democrats at that.
Source?
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Originally posted by Urchin
Source?
http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061029/NEWS05/610290334/1021
To start with. I would go further into detail, especially with the Philadelphia enquirer reporting that a huge amount of dead people voted for gore in 2000, but I want to take a nap.
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I thought dipping your finger in ink was the solution?
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Originally posted by lukster
The integrity of our voting system is absolutely essential. Hacking the voting machines makes little difference if we're gonna let ineligibles vote. What's all the fuss about a national ID card? Who here doesn't already have a driver's license? If you are opposed to a national ID please tell why and please make it more concrete than something nebulous about big brother.
Big Brother nebulous?:huh
hmmm ok ill take a crack at this,
The reason im totally opposed to a NATIONAL ID card is mainly becouse of Big Brother or Big Government.
Yes i have a license actually its a class A-CDL. However it is STATE issued. Im not eve n gonna go into the history of the CDL and how THAT failed misserably except to generate revenue.
I dont want all my info tied together in one national ID card. I dont want the federal goverment to have easier access to track me.
i dont want marketers (and they will) to track me and my habits.
Heck why have a card, why not just get a bar code tattoo on our arms....oh yeah , it was done already and look how THAT turned out:aok
I still want to enjoy my privacy. After ID cards it will be microchip or RFID implants....no thank you.
So yeah Big Brother has EVERTHTHING to do with this issue and it damn sure aint nebulous!:furious
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061029/NEWS05/610290334/1021
To start with. I would go further into detail, especially with the Philadelphia enquirer reporting that a huge amount of dead people voted for gore in 2000, but I want to take a nap.
Link didn't work for me...
I got this "Error: Invalid story key (BH,20061029,NEWS05,610290334,AR). Error: Invalid story key (BH,20061029,NEWS05,610290334,AR). Error: Invalid story key (BH,20061029,NEWS05,610290334,AR). Error: Invalid story key (BH,20061029,NEWS05,610290334,AR).
Error: Invalid story key (BH,20061029,NEWS05,610290334,AR). "
Speaking of the 2000 election, did you read "The best democracy money can buy"? Goes into some detail on the Florida election, it was pretty interesting reading.
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I bet Laser has a curious blindness to all the electronic voting machines that are registering republican votes for folks who vote democrat. It's the Golly-geendest thing...
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WilldCard, I think you might be making too much of it. You are already on paper, pal. You already have hundreds, if not thousands of public records tagged to your name, dob, and soc sec number, inlcuding your CDL. Many of these records are already in national data bases. :/ you already have a national identity. the photo ID would simply make it easier to make the identification as far as I can see.
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Chairboy, I wouldn't be so sure that all the errors are in GOP favor... If you are, could you give a linky? My impression is that they know the reason why it happens, and poll workers are trained to reset the machines on the spot (which is underwelming in itself) but not due to hacking. Reportedly the same type of error occurs in the Poker video machines which are subject to the same error for some reason...
I just think there is no excuse for it.
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Some info after a quiky search
The advance of identification technology—biometrics, identity cards, surveillance, databases, dossiers—threatens privacy, civil liberties, and related human interests. Since the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, demands for identification in the name of security have increased. In this insightful book, Jim Harper takes readers inside identification—a process everyone uses every day but few people have ever thought about. Using stories and examples from movies, television, and classic literature, Harper dissects identification processes and technologies, showing how identification works when it works and how it fails when it fails. Harper exposes the myth that identification can protect against future terrorist attacks. He shows that a U.S. national identification card, created by Congress in the REAL ID Act, is a poor way to secure the country or its citizens. A national ID represents a transfer of power from individuals to institutions, and that transfer threatens liberty, enables identity fraud, and subjects people to unwanted surveillance. Instead of a uniform, government-controlled identification system, Harper calls for a competitive, responsive identification and credentialing industry that meets the mix of consumer demands for privacy, security, anonymity, and accountability. Identification should be a risk-reducing strategy in a social system, Harper concludes, not a rivet to pin humans to governmental or economic machinery.
Linky (http://www.catostore.org/index.asp?fa=ProductDetails&method=cats&scid=37&pid=1441305)
There is ALOT more info out there on why national id cards are bad
Better Info (http://www.epic.org/privacy/id_cards/)
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Here's a recent story:
http://www.kfdm.com/engine.pl?station=kfdm&id=17343&template=breakout_dayportvideo.shtml
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interesting information there. I don't know if I agree with all of it, though. The author may have an axe to grind. I don't think a national ID is a fix all, but I think that we may find that it may become necessity to quickly identify somebody in real time, and that will demand some form of ID based on a large database. Without it, identification just takes longer.
Maybe keeping it state issued would make you feel better, but if I can identify you with state ID, I am also able to access tens of thousands of public records from all across the nation, including voter registration files for elections, all present and past addresses, employers, hunting licenses, aircraft ownership, vessels, property, how many cylinders that are in the car parked in your driveway along with color, make and model, associates, family members, financial info, and so on.
I'm for states rights, don't get me wrong. I'm just saying we need at least state issued ID for elections. As for the national ID, it is inevitable in my opinion. 666 happened while we werent looking.
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Well, you correct gunther, you can acess my or anyones info however, it takes time. Its not all on the card.
if you go into a 7-11 and swipe your national
ID card then ALL your info is right there. Also the govt has already stated they would share your info with marketers.
besides right now i can still buy a boat and disapear really really easily. heck i dont really even need the boat but, i've always wanted a nice lil sail/house boat.
when these cards come out, ppl wont be able to do or buy hardly nothing if anything.
And if your state doesnt fall in line and spend the 11-13 BILLION that wont be reimbursed btw then your SOL.
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Thanks Chair, but that one piece doesn't convince me that the glitch only changes Democratic votes to Republican. I'd have to see a lot more evidence than this. But I will say that it really, really makes me angry when I see a verified report about voting machine errors... even though I know that there have always been errors even with paper ballots. I'm reluctently thinking that we need a foolproof way to do this, and electronic voting may not be it.
You appear to believe the errors are a conspiricy without seeing a study or examination that provides cold facts - kind a like "faith", isn't it?
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I know how you feel, Willdcard. I'm not completely sure about national ID myself... it reminds me of a Harlan Ellison novellete.
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It's natural to feel threatened by an all knowing government but the fact remains that the vast majority of honest, self-supporting citizens are already very easily identified by our government. A national id card could simply be standardized nationally but issued by each state and only the issuing state maintains the database. You want to work you need one of these cards or a green card, same for voting, well, except the green card.
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I'd like a combination electronic/paper system. Electronic voting with a printed ticket that's visible through a little glass window. You vote, you confirm your vote on screen, and a continuous feed printer under a window shows the vote as it was printed, and only shows YOUR vote. This way, if there's a request for a recount, there's a paper trail that can be used.
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Originally posted by JB88
[...i think that it is a worthwhile study and i hope that those who respond to this post will refrain from throwing out party line.
imho. how we elect our leaders is important and its honesty is imperative.
but that's just me.
thanks.
88
O RLY?
NO WAI!!!!!
lmao u r teh naiivest!!!11
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Originally posted by Debonair
O RLY?
NO WAI!!!!!
lmao u r teh naiivest!!!11
your shoe is untied.
;)
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thats not my leg
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those aren't pillows.
:huh
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i hope not:eek: :eek: :eek: john candy has been dead a long time:O :O :cry
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What's the gist of why ID cards are needed?
Why is it not sufficient anymore to just take 30sec and physically vote, and have said vote counted?
Relying on electronics is begging for hacking.
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That's very odd, the story on their web page is broken. I re-searched from their page and it wasn't moved.
Anyway, I've been reading up on the touch screen machines. After heavy use, their calibration gets off. So while you may push the button for democrat, it registers republican underneath. Those one quarter of american who are retards (Southpark 2006) will automatically assume that this means they are trying to be cheated. However, had they pushed the Republican button, it would have registered Libertarian (just taking the wild guess that it reads off demo-repub-libert-green-indep).
The problem can be solved by recalibrating the touch screen.
or going office space on all of the new machines and using the old ones which are perfectly fine and have worked for a long time.
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Originally posted by moot
What's the gist of why ID cards are needed?
Why is it not sufficient anymore to just take 30sec and physically vote, and have said vote counted?
Relying on electronics is begging for hacking.
ID cards can be required of people to work and vote and can help prevent others who have no right to do either from doing so. I've stood in line for more than an hour to vote. No biggie but if there is a more efficient way to do so while ensuring a reliable system I'm all for it.
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What's wrong with the laws and logistics already in place for those two (working & voting)?
Looks like a time management problem on the voting booth side (as opposed to the user on the other side of the vote) is the problem to address, not the physical voting recipient.
Having a human cashier on top of all the transaction decisions, in real-time, is safer than replacing it with a self-serve register bot transacting away unsupervised.
It would all be a non-issue if electronics weren't such a gaping security hole.
Regular voting is already corrupted, cf. Skuzzy's anecdote.
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I guess those who oppose a national id never in their life paid anything using a credit card or a cash card in the shop. :D
Or worry about being thrown to jail because 'John Smith' from Illinois was sentenced and put to APB. Hey it's the OTHER John Smith.. no wait I have no id to prove it. :D
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I'm not opposed to ID, but extraneous elements in any design.
Why aren't driver's licenses and passports enough to identify yourself to vote and get hired?
The credit card I use 90% of the time has my face on it.
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Here's another disturbing video on election hacking:
Testimony of Clint Curtis to Democrats on the House Judiciary Committee (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEzY2tnwExs)
Electronic voting is fine, so long as the machine gives you a manually auditable, anonymous paper receipt that the voter gets to check before sticking in a ballot box. Without the paper trail it's just too easy to change the numbers, and there's no chance of a meaningful recount.
Urchin, if you enjoyed The Best Democracy Money Can Buy try his latest book, Armed Madhouse.
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Originally posted by moot
I'm not opposed to ID, but extraneous elements in any design.
Why aren't driver's licenses and passports enough to identify yourself to vote and get hired?
The credit card I use 90% of the time has my face on it.
In Finland people have social security numbers which identify your person. This number is your registration to social services as well as national id. It's consisted of your birth date and a four digit personal code. This code is used as a security code when doing credit purchases in the shops, internet banking etc. meaning that if someone manages to rip off your credit card he also needs to know the four digits from the ssid before he can make purchases larger than $60 in any shop.
It also makes dealing with government officials easy, as you can verify yourself on phone by giving the id. It simplifies things in so many ways that I could never believe many other countries didn't have the system. Of course there are downsides too, it can be used for identity theft. There have been a couple cases where people's id's have been stolen by emptying pensioners etc. mailboxes and opening their mail. The dole etc. papers always list this code. But so far the advantages far outweigh the downsides.
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in finn-land, do they prohibit more then 20,000 from having sex on teh same day & how do they ration it?
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After some thought I think that if we were to go to all electronic voting machines we should have the ppl who build and maintain slot machines do it.
Nothing will be 100% however not to many folks can crack the newer slot machines. Besides hire some of the security goombas from the casino's, break a few legs and a few trips out into the desert will go along way towards making the hackers think twice:t
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Originally posted by Debonair
in finn-land, do they prohibit more then 20,000 from having sex on teh same day & how do they ration it?
By having a population of less than 5 million. Besides the digits are alphanumeric so they last untill 1.67 million simultaneous births.
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Originally posted by WilldCrd
After some thought I think that if we were to go to all electronic voting machines we should have the ppl who build and maintain slot machines do it.
Oh sure, put the mob in charge of voting. ;)
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
By having a population of less than 5 million. Besides the digits are alphanumeric so they last untill 1.67 million simultaneous births.
well thats much better for you, but you risk having your code number be "ghey"
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Originally posted by Debonair
well thats much better for you, but you risk having your code number be "ghey"
Heheh, luckily they start with numbers and we never get that many births per day. :D