Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Guppy35 on November 01, 2006, 09:49:07 AM
-
Looks to be in great shape considering how long it's been.
Fw 190A-2 WNr.0125425 from 12/JG 5.
http://www.bt.no/lokalt/hordaland/article310875.ece
-
<
>
-
Yay!
-
More and better images
http://f16.parsimony.net/cgi-bin/topic-flat.cgi?Nummer=28300&Phase=Phase1&ThreadNummer=14197
(http://www.ahs.no/discussion_images/yellow16recovered.jpg)
-
It looks like the paint has corroded away and revealed another coat beneath the black 6, red 5 is that? :)
I didnt realise 190's used fabric control surfaces either.
-
Ball: Almost looks like "15," doesn't it? Pretty interesting!
As for the photos: I'm very shocked! It's almost intact! Truly amazing how long it's held up for 65 years under water!
-
When they dove on the Lexington they showed a F6f still sitting in the hanger with bombs on it, still intact.
-
Originally posted by Sweet2th
When they dove on the Lexington they showed a F6f still sitting in the hanger with bombs on it, still intact.
Think you probably mean the Helldivers on the hanger deck of the Saratoga.
No one has dove the Lexington and it went down before F6Fs saw combat.
-
Originally posted by Ball
It looks like the paint has corroded away and revealed another coat beneath the black 6, red 5 is that? :)
I didnt realise 190's used fabric control surfaces either.
I believe it was Yellow 16 when it was ditched, but they are also suggesting based on the other numbers being revealed that it had at least 3 different codes.
-
Ahhhhh.. VERY interesting. I thought it was a red that had parts of it corroded to yellow (algae and whatnot eating it), but it's yellow that corroded red... Very interesting. One might think the paint rusted, only the LW used a cellulose-based paint, and I don't think it rusted.
-
was it pulled out of fresh water or salt water, thats makes a huge difference in corroding. fresh water should have little to none.
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
More and better images
And frickin HUGH too. I dont have a 27" monitor at work.
that pic is so large I can see the individual pieces of seaweed on the plane. Also you can see what looks like flak damage on the stab and on the engine cowling. It looks like the pilot was able to ditch at a pretty low speed, the wings dont look all crumbled and the prop is a just little bent, engine may not have been running when he hit the water
-
It looks to be fairly corroded by the looks of the cowlings, holes in wings and the tail. Still it is awesome to see it on the surface! Darn good thing the waters in Norway are so damn cold, otherwise there would not be much left.
-
No one has dove the Lexington and it went down before F6Fs saw combat.
You may be right on that one.do you know how many Lexington's there were?
I have found that the 190 in the photo was stationed in Trondheim-Lade area up until 1943 when as i have been reading they were very happy to leave, so happy they wrote a poem about it.
The Poem:
"Today we draw fishfloursoup as rations,
the northern lights are already all the same to us !
About the mountains and the fjords(?) we don`t care,
the only thing we want, is the Return into the Reich!"
-
Thats cool as hell
-
"Fw 190A-2 WNr.0125425 from 12/JG 5."
A few observations: ailerons are of newer design and cooling louvers behind the exhaus stack and the lack of outer wing armament would have lead me to think of F3 variant. But the pitot tube is in wrong place for F variant.
It could also be an A4/U3 but not later model because of the shorter fuselage.
AFAIK the A2 never had the cooling louvers in the cowling but I'd imagine that they were quickly retrofitted to older machines, too.
A strange puzzle of 190.
-C+
-
The picture shows it just has cooling slits. These aren't the adjustable louvres of later models. Maybe that's what you're thinking of?
-
A1 and A2 had no cooling for engine auxiliaries and they were introduced to A3. The adjustable gills were introduced in A5 along with lengthened fuselage.
-C+
Ed. also the WNr suggests a later prolly repaired plane.
http://home.no.net/kjellsor/frosta.html
12./JG5 Werknr.5492 Fw.Ernst Koch (KIA) 21.1 1943
Notice the small WNr.
Further info:
http://www.michael-reimer.com/CFS2/CFS2_Profiles/ETO_AXIS_Luftwaffe_JG5.html
-
I think your ight charge i was thinking it was a A-3 as well, from the list i have found JG/5 mainly had A-3's some A-2's and a quite a bit of 109-F series planes.
Ha Ha i found it !
http://www.luftwaffe.no/SIG/Losses/190tap.html
mid way down the page,
2-6-1943 -------FW-190-A-2---Bruchlandung due to engine trouble, Bardufoss.
-
Originally posted by Charge
"Fw 190A-2 WNr.0125425 from 12/JG 5."
A few observations: ailerons are of newer design and cooling louvers behind the exhaus stack and the lack of outer wing armament would have lead me to think of F3 variant. But the pitot tube is in wrong place for F variant.
It could also be an A4/U3 but not later model because of the shorter fuselage.
AFAIK the A2 never had the cooling louvers in the cowling but I'd imagine that they were quickly retrofitted to older machines, too.
A strange puzzle of 190.
-C+
What a time capsule though. Hope it's well preserved for the long term.
Now if we could get Alan Bunte's 4th FG P51B out of the lake near Postsdam......:)
-
Wow. One of the awsomest planes to ever grace the skies of this planet. Period.
Where did this serial number info come from? FW190A-2 WNR 0125425 was built in 1942 by Arado at Warnemunde. It was assigned to IV/JG5 when it had a forced landing due to weather on 15 Dec. 1943.
This info can be found in build/historical records here about 3/4 way down. http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/a-2c.htm (http://)
-
Originally posted by 47Hooker
Wow. One of the awsomest planes to ever grace the skies of this planet. Period.
"Its Awsome."
"Awsome? How? Like a hot dog?"
"Like a billion hot dogs sir."
-
Now they are suggesting it's an A3.
129 more photos found at:
http://www.luftwaffe.no/wreck/index.htm
Great profile done of it too.
-
Just another piece of German junk that should have stayed in the water to rot.
-
Hawco, you must have been the kid in kindergarden that went around and kicked over the building blocks and took the kids milk and cookie money. :rolleyes:
whats the matter did you get it caught in your zipper again?
-
lol... Airscrew, your awesome reference did not go unidentified or unappreciated. ;)
-
Fortunately for the rest of us there are people with resources who see these important pieces of aviation history differently. http://www.flugwerk.de/fw190.shtm (http://)
-
Originally posted by Airscrew
Hawco, you must have been the kid in kindergarden that went around and kicked over the building blocks and took the kids milk and cookie money. :rolleyes:
whats the matter did you get it caught in your zipper again?
Nope, I just remember what my Grandfather told me what the Nazis were like and I thank God that they never won the war, I don't see these things as pieces of history, I see them as instruments of an evil empire that was crushed.
And lay of the insults too, you know sh$t about me and why I think like this.
-
Amazing!
-
i remember what my granfather told me about them also, he found one of the first camps. he mentioned how incredible their aircraft were. his two favorites of WWII were the 109 and P-38, with the "forked tail devil" his favorite cause they keep the 109's busy.
-
Originally posted by Hawco
Nope, I just remember what my Grandfather told me what the Nazis were like and I thank God that they never won the war, I don't see these things as pieces of history, I see them as instruments of an evil empire that was crushed.
And lay of the insults too, you know sh$t about me and why I think like this.
You won't find many people that have anything good to say about Nazis, their beliefs or, more horribly, their actions during WW2. Their aircraft and vehicles however, are souless pieces of machinery just like our hardware. They were/are without question fine pieces of machinery that inspire awe and rightfully deserve a special place in history and are very much deserving of preservation.
You, Sir, are absolutely entitled to your opionion. But consider this: A vast majority of people can only read about WW2 and see pictures and watch videos. A person that actually lays eyes on or touches an actual instrument of that terrible era gets instilled in them the REALITY of that war. This aircraft will serve that very purpose.
-
Originally posted by Hawco
Just another piece of German junk that should have stayed in the water to rot.
why post in this topic if you have nothing good to say about it?
these planes was for the german airforce, just like the US airforce planes.
the planes have NOTHING to do with nazi rule.
i suppose you feel the same about regular german soldiers?
-
Wow! amazing its in such good condition. Looks like its only been down there for a decade, not 6.
Looking at that 190-A's in Norway page that someone linked, im stunned to see how many were lost to non-combat reasons like hard landings, or engine failures etc. I only saw a small handfull which were lost in combat. Or it that page not representative of the real picture?
-
Originally posted by Overlag
i suppose you feel the same about regular german soldiers?
(quietly raises hand)
.....well....er.....I DO!
But that's a topic to be re-re-re-discussed in a different forum some other day.
- oldman (heck, the poor airplane had no choice)
-
ok, so i guess the German soldier was about spreading Nazi rule...... but then isn't the US soldier about spreading US views/systems??? This great wars to spread of democracy is not unlike the militaristic spread of Nazism or communism....hmmmm I really need a picture of a open can of worms.
the armed forces fight for there country, not for there political party
the airforce, navy and army have nothing to do with nazi's, except for the hard liner SS troops etc.
-
I don't see these things as pieces of history, I see them as instruments of an evil empire that was crushed.
Okay!
Then why don't you just go call all Austro/German AH gamers 'Nazi descendants', or 'heirs to an evil empire' as well? After all, its in their blood - their gramps had all been a part of the evil empire, right?
Man, those BMWs and Benzs.. stupid Nazi machinery from Nazi-era corporations, right?
Under that logic, I think I loosely fit as an "evil Axis descendant" also, since my grandfather was a low-ranking local bureacrat when Korea was under Japanese rule in those days.
...
"A sense of justice without a brain and a heart is no different from prejudice and bigotry." - kweassa
-
aye, i have german "roots" in my family tree.... i guess im nazi :lol
-
Originally posted by Oldman731
(quietly raises hand)
.....well....er.....I DO!
But that's a topic to be re-re-re-discussed in a different forum some other day.
- oldman (heck, the poor airplane had no choice)
Yer a moron
-
Wow. Rubber on tire is still intact. Freshwater?
(http://www.luftwaffe.no/wreck/source/image/img_8423.jpg)
-
http://www.luftwaffe.no/wreck/index.htm
More here
-
Welcome back
Beautiful plane, seaweed and all.
-
Originally posted by Hawco
Nope, I just remember what my Grandfather told me what the Nazis were like and I thank God that they never won the war, I don't see these things as pieces of history, I see them as instruments of an evil empire that was crushed.
And lay of the insults too, you know sh$t about me and why I think like this.
Like it or not, the fact remains that the pilot of that aircraft probably served and fought with honor for his country, no matter what that country's beleifs were. He did his duty, much the same as the allies did thiers.
On another note of the same subject: keep in mind there still are German veterans still alive that have made peace with thier allied counterparts. Some that have stared intently at each other through gunsights in the past have now become the best of friends and have grown beyond thier differences.
-
Originally posted by Mister Fork
Wow. Rubber on tire is still intact. Freshwater?
(http://www.luftwaffe.no/wreck/source/image/img_8423.jpg)
also very very cold water
-
Remember.
Not all Germans were Nazis
Not even all Nazis were evil
Just like not all Democrats or Republicans are Evil here.
Just the diehard members of the parties.
There is nothing dishonarable about serving and fighting for your country reguardless of what country that is.
ITs what you as an individual do while in service of your country that dictates whether you where honorable or not.
Not all German soldiers were evil brutes
Many faught and died well and with honor as well as their allied counterparts
As a counterpoint.
there are many in the USA not to mention worldwide who beleive we are wrongly in Iraq. And there have been instances of what many would call atrocities done by american soldeirs or other brances of the government.
Now would you be willing to say that all American soldiers are evil and without honor because they are serving and fighitng for a country that many beleive is an illegal war and has commited atrocities?
Orrr would youonly blame the ones in power for causing it and those brances of the governmen and specific soldiers who have commited atrocities?
Same can be said for some Isrealie soldiers as well
I dont care what your background is
You cant have it both ways
where EVERYONE is bad because a portion of them has done wrong.
Cept when its your country
-
Now that Im done with that rant.
Nice plane.
What was the armament on those things?
-
A-3 had the Mausers inboard (MG151/20s), the 7mms in the cowling, and optional kits for MG/FF outboard. I don't see them on these photos (I could be overlooking them). It's similar to our 190A5 in Aces High, but performed different and had engine overheat problems.
-
Does the article say if it will be restored and since I am assuming it will be, are they going to restore it to a flyable condition?
-
I think the only problem with that is finding a suitable engine.
It's funny that the BMW engines made in WW2 were engineered so precisely that we cannot duplicate the parts to build new ones. We need the engine already intact, and can work with it as long as it already exists.
I think this one will be in restoration for at least a decade. Look at the massive corrosion on every part. Every piece on the entire plane will have to be re-made from scratch. Not so much a restoration as building a new one on an older pattern.
What I don't get is this: When you restore you literally strip, refabricate, and replace. Sure it takes *forever*, but once you've done one plane you have literally rebuilt that entire thing from scratch. Why don't they just record every piece and every dimension and every aspect of it? That way, for example, if they wanted another Glacier Girl, they've got all the plans, and they'd have to fabricate it anyways, why not just build it without the wreck? The pattern exists already?
Same for 190s. If they restore one of them, and record all the parts, they can then just build a second any time they want. Why do they need the wreck? (that is, of course, assuming they document every part, as if they were saving a record for future restoration/construction crews)
-
Originally posted by Hwkeye
Does the article say if it will be restored and since I am assuming it will be, are they going to restore it to a flyable condition?
The plan at this point is to display it as found after preserving it. They are not ruling out future restoration however.
-
"Looking at that 190-A's in Norway page that someone linked, im stunned to see how many were lost to non-combat reasons like hard landings, or engine failures etc. I only saw a small handfull which were lost in combat. Or it that page not representative of the real picture?"
I'd say that at that time all old FWs were moved to fronts with less significance and especially the first batch of FWs still had the problems they had in the beginning, so their numbers lost in accidents due to mechanical problems (i.e. overheating etc.) probably remained high throughout their service life. Also the weather could be really bad in Norway so many weather caused forced landings because of running out of fuel were probably referred just as ditches.
I wonder how big proportion of losses during WW2 was actually caused by bad weather?
-C+
-
Even after seeing news about many, many salvage efforts like this during the past 15 years...they just never cease to amaze me.
I just look at the pics dumbfounded...wow.
-
best fighter plane ever!!! send it to the usa, where it belongs!
-
Originally posted by Masherbrum
Yer a moron
Heh. True enough. Gives me a warm feeling to have so much company.
Sorry for assisting in the thread hijack, that was rude (of all who assisted!). Can see from the responses here, and even from a PM or two, that there are fertile fields for discussing this (again), but that should be in the O Club, and later.
Anyway, it's pretty kewl they found the plane.
- oldman
-
Originally posted by Dux
lol... Airscrew, your awesome reference did not go unidentified or unappreciated. ;)
thanks Dux, I'm glad there are others who appreciate this guy :cool:
My daughter "discovered" him a couple of years ago and we have managed to get all his CDs and DVDs. She can practically reciet every one of his routines, especially the "Death Star" Jeff Vadar :lol . Before she brought him home I had never heard of him. I'm actually going to watch The Avengers again just because I found out he was in it
-
Originally posted by Krusty
Same for 190s. If they restore one of them, and record all the parts, they can then just build a second any time they want. Why do they need the wreck? (that is, of course, assuming they document every part, as if they were saving a record for future restoration/construction crews)
If I were to take a wild guess, I would imagine that the tooling no longer exists. For example, if you wanted to make a steel wing spar for a 190.. where are you going to have it forged? Who would have the necessary molds? I wouldn't think anybody would have that just laying around.
To put it in perspective, to make a simple, 50 cent plastic dustpan, it requires a $50,000 mold. Now, imagine what it would cost to re-invent all the tooling for literally thousands of parts to re-create an obsolete aircraft with no real market demand.
It can be done, but the money is not there. Take White 1 for example. Yes, it's a 262... yes many of the parts are correct, but items like the Jumo engines would be insanely expensive to re-create (and dangerously unreliable)... so they used off-the-shelf modern engines. Saved truckloads of cash and made it safer to fly.
-
Indy, about that steel spar: They're going to have to have it re-worked anyways. It might be welded from multiple pieces to save time and money, but they'll refabricate it from scratch. Why? Imagine a plane like this Yellow 16... There's no way the original spar is intact, not heavily corroded, and in perfect condition. When you restore a plane you leave almost no original piece on the aircraft.
That's why restorations take so much $$$. Now if you had the $$$ and wanted the plane, couldn't you just copy the parts from a recent restoration?
-
Originally posted by Krusty
That's why restorations take so much $$$. Now if you had the $$$ and wanted the plane, couldn't you just copy the parts from a recent restoration?
Well, if money & time are no object, you can get anything you want... if you can find an exact duplicate (or at least "close enough") of what you're trying to restore. From what people are posting here, seems like this particular 190 is a bastardized model that underwent field retrofits & repairs. I have no clue how you would even begin to source replacement parts, or find plans you could feed into a CNC machine to make new pieces... maybe Bodhi could chime in on this?
-
I hate to tell you guys but they are re-making 190's in Germany.
Check for yourselves.
http://www.flugwerk.de/
For around 500,000 $$$$$ you to can own one.:aok
-
Those aren't real 190s. They only look like it on the outside. There's a difference :)
-
well Mr.Know it all since you can't read i will fill in the blanks.
They make those 190's from the original plans and are made way better than they ever were.The only thing they lack is firepower.
-
Sweet2th, I've known about them for a while. Yes, I know they use the original plans.
I just meant they add new things. They have modern technological advances designed to make it a functioning (modern) private plane. Rather than an accurate representation of what the real thing was. Sure there are a lot of similarities, but to me, it's not the same.
EDIT: Sorry if I came off as argumentative in the last post. My personal opinion is that flugwerk's work (while great in its own right) isn't exactly the same as building a true-to-spec warbird. Sorry if I wasn't very clear.
-
well i would rather have anew one than an original.There's something about having a plane that was used against the Allies in WW2 that makes me not want to own one.The FW-190 was one of the best aircraft ever made and i would rather have a (private) version.
I understand Krusty believe me i do.Those aircraft were made during war time and with todays metal's and fabrication technology's i would prefer a new one.
-
I remember reading an article/story about a private pilot that recalls seeing one of the butt-ugliest 1/2 scale replicas of a Stuka at an air show once. he recalls watching it taxi past or something. :lol
Biggest problem (to me) is finding a decent engine. Some folks went through a LOT of trouble to re-build a 109 from a kit or something, and ended up putting a dinky engine in, it looked like a Bf108 tailfun rather than a 109. Totally trashed the entire look/feel of the ride.
They need to start making plane engines for warbirds. Make them the same SIZE even if not the same power. That would be cool.
EDIT: accidentally submitted before I was ready, the edit finished the post
-
Krusty you need to check into that site i posted more deeply, they are using Allison engines in all thier remakes now.
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
Now if we could get Alan Bunte's 4th FG P51B out of the lake near Postsdam......:)
Why the heck are we sitting here! Lets go!
-
Originally posted by Fencer51
Why the heck are we sitting here! Lets go!
It's been my dream recovery since I first read about it back in the 70s in 1000 Destroyed. I've seen the MACR for it and found all i can about it. Other folks claim to be on the hunt for it over there too.
But I've never heard or seen anything since.
The 7th AF guys are hunting for a combat P51D "Sparkin Eyes" that went into the deep part of a Japanese lake too. They are at least to the fund raising point and actively hunting. Pilot for that one is still living so they hope to get it before he's gone. They actually have the Japanese Zero pilots association helping them.
That's a profile i did for em on their news letter :)
http://www.7thfighter.com/newsletter/sunsetter_fall_2006.pdf
-
The article linked to in the original post mentions that the plane was not in combat as the cannon covers were still on. Also that witnesses said they saw the pilot jettison the canopy and make a controlled ditch. The pilot was dragged down with the plane but managed to get free and was picked up by a fishing boat.
-
Originally posted by Charge
"Looking at that 190-A's in Norway page that someone linked, im stunned to see how many were lost to non-combat reasons like hard landings, or engine failures etc. I only saw a small handfull which were lost in combat. Or it that page not representative of the real picture?"
I'd say that at that time all old FWs were moved to fronts with less significance and especially the first batch of FWs still had the problems they had in the beginning, so their numbers lost in accidents due to mechanical problems (i.e. overheating etc.) probably remained high throughout their service life. Also the weather could be really bad in Norway so many weather caused forced landings because of running out of fuel were probably referred just as ditches.
Accidents were a significant cause of operational losses in the WWII. Pilot errors, mechanical problems, weather..
I can't remember exact figures but accidents caused an impressive amount of losses to air forces around the world.
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
Now they are suggesting it's an A3.
129 more photos found at:
http://www.luftwaffe.no/wreck/index.htm
Great profile done of it too.
Man that thing needs a powerwash bad. It's gonna stink like heck after a couple of days out of the water.
They need to at least try to get it flying. The 'Butcher Bird' is an awesome aircraft.