Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Chairboy on November 01, 2006, 10:42:37 AM
-
According to this:
http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=eed74d9d44c30493706fe03f4c9b3a77&fark
Halliburton has just received a $365 million contract to build detention centers across the US. As Fark quipped, "trust us, (they) will never ever be used to hold dissenting citizens."
If you're not concerned, y'all still aren't paying attention. Even if you completely trust the current administration from the deepest parts of your heart and believe that they represent everything that's fantastic about trustworthiness, character, and unadulterated fantasticness, can you imagine how something like this might/will be abused by subsequent administrations?
What is the purpose of this, anyhow? Also, even if you approve of it, how does this possibly jibe with the idea that the current administration represents smaller government?
-
What would you do with all of the illegal immigrants caught trespassing? Turn 'em loose and give 'em a court date as is done now?
-
Why do you think it'd be used for illegal immigrants? BTW, afaik, the guys who INS nabs these days are deported. The problem is that they just come right back over the border.
-
There should be 60 days mandatory "payback" doing labor for the agency that catches them. There are no real penalties hence it continues at citizens expense.
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
Why do you think it'd be used for illegal immigrants? BTW, afaik, the guys who INS nabs these days are deported. The problem is that they just come right back over the border.
You don't REALLY believe those illegal aliens picked up by the INS are really deported do you? Hell, we can't even get them to come get the ones in our jails they don't have to FIND. We have illegals in the jails and prisons here, guilty of serious crimes, and they don't get deported. they don't even get deported when they get out. Local law enforcement has had to BEG for the clearance to get rid of them through deportation.
Do you have any idea what $365 million will build for detention centers? Good grief, you can't even build a jail that'll hold 1500 inmates for that.
I hope whatever it is you have that makes you so paranoid is not contagious. I don't have anything personal against you, I don't dislike
you or anything, and I can even have some measure of grudging respect for your atheism, but outside of a very few posts about some neat aircraft, 90% of what you post is incredibly paranoid. Surely you cannot honestly believe "they" are all out to get you. Hell, I actually like you, but you really worry me. I'm not kidding.
-
I respect your right to disagree with me, and perhaps the idea that I'm paranoid is understandable considering that I'm more likely to post when I see something I'm concerned about than when I see something that's A-OK. There's an old saying in tech support, "the customer never calls to tell you the product is working fine".
I don't cower under my afghan hiding from robots that I think are cominig to steal my medicine (which they use for fuel), it just _looks_ that way. :D
I do, however, think it's my job as an involved citizen to apply scrutiny. Not everything is an emergency, but to assume that nothing bad ever happens is a path equally fraught with danger. Please don't mistake "Hey, I'd like some eyeballs on this' for "ZOMG PANIC!!!!111!!2!!". In turn, I'll be extra careful to clearly label my level of concern about stuff so my posts don't seem like the ravings of a lunatic.
Regards,
CB
-
Fair enough.
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
Why do you think it'd be used for illegal immigrants? BTW, afaik, the guys who INS nabs these days are deported. The problem is that they just come right back over the border.
Uh, the first sentence in the article. You did read it right?
"Editor's Note: A little-known $385 million contract for Halliburton subsidiary KBR to build detention facilities for "an emergency influx of immigrants""
-
they are going to need more money than that to hold all you libruls in concentration camps.
:noid
-
Is anyone on this board actually liberal? I thought Nash was the last holdout.
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
Is anyone on this board actually liberal? I thought Nash was the last holdout.
Calling for backup? ;)
-
???
-
ummm, Berkely California is not the place to get your honest news from. Those people make pravda look like the gospels
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
Is anyone on this board actually liberal? I thought Nash was the last holdout.
anyone on this board that thinks Bush and his boot licking lackeys are idiots are automatically placed in the liberal camp, regardless of real life political affiliation/thought. I mean no card carrying registered Republican would ever think to speak badly about Herr Bush.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
anyone on this board that thinks Bush and his boot licking lackeys are idiots are automatically placed in the liberal camp, regardless of real life political affiliation/thought. I mean no card carrying registered Republican would ever think to speak badly about Herr Bush.
ack-ack
Actually posts like this make it easy to sort folks.
-
suppose this is true. how are we ever to control our borders if we don't have an appropriate place in which to detain people whose true identity or intentions come into question?
here in south florida we used to have the krome detention center into which illegal immigrants from the caribbean basin were transported until they could be processed properly or deported.
I see nothing wrong with having proper facilities for processing immigrants, after all what was ellis island all about?
-
Originally posted by Rino
Actually posts like this make it easy to sort folks.
Not at all because I am a registered Republican, have been since 1988.
ack-ack
-
are you a log cabin republican?
-
I know you'll be crushed to learn that I am not Storchita. Looks like you'll need to find a ride to their meetings from someone else.
ack-ack
-
what would that build 1 or2,,,,,maybe 3 or 4 small facilities?
sounds /looks like a payoff for something to me
Meander
-
why would I need a ride to their meetings? I didn't know they met. however it seems that you do know. you have a lot of insider information on this group. I think your denial concerning your membership in this organization is disingenuous at best.
-
Oh if it's for illegal migrants I think $365 million will buy a whole lot of chain link fence, concertinia wire, and surplus Army tents don't you? Lot's of unused space out in New Mexico, and Arizona to build a tent city on.
-
I really have no knowledge of this group Storchita, I just figured by your question that you were an active member and were looking for a ride to one of their meetings. I am sorry if I accidentally outed you with my answer.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Not at all because I am a registered Republican, have been since 1988.
ack-ack
A sheep in wolf's clothing? :D
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
Is anyone on this board actually liberal? I thought Nash was the last holdout.
Raises hand and waves it so hard that im afraid it may come off at any minute... the left arm of course. :D
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
I respect your right to disagree with me, and perhaps the idea that I'm paranoid is understandable considering that I'm more likely to post when I see something I'm concerned about than when I see something that's A-OK. There's an old saying in tech support, "the customer never calls to tell you the product is working fine".
I don't cower under my afghan hiding from robots that I think are cominig to steal my medicine (which they use for fuel), it just _looks_ that way. :D
I do, however, think it's my job as an involved citizen to apply scrutiny. Not everything is an emergency, but to assume that nothing bad ever happens is a path equally fraught with danger. Please don't mistake "Hey, I'd like some eyeballs on this' for "ZOMG PANIC!!!!111!!2!!". In turn, I'll be extra careful to clearly label my level of concern about stuff so my posts don't seem like the ravings of a lunatic.
Regards,
CB
I'm nervous too, man. :(. Because they could be used as concentration camps.
-
Originally posted by WhiteHawk
I'm nervous too, man. :(. Because they could be used as concentration camps.
Sure they could. At that price, they're bound to build hundreds of them that can hold thousands of dissidents in each. :noid :noid :noid
-
These are the "smoke" that goes witht he 700 mile border fence "mirror" where both the Dem-o-craps and Repugnants pretend to actually want to do something about illegal immigration to placate the sheep (us).
As with the fence, a nice additional slice of pork for our favorite, no bid (which might be OK if there was any oversight), $20 hamburger provider, Haliburton.
Charon
-
Berkely California is not the place to get your honest news from.
No.... but it would be a great place to make a detention center.
CAVALRY
-
some of you guys post as if the federal government building stuff is a bad thing. I provide service for the port authority here in dade and broward counties. I greatly appreciate the money the federal government puts back into the local economy.
the border fence project is a good idea. being in the fence (access control) business myself I assure you that federal money spent on fences annually is a great booster to local economies all over the country.
fences do help to keep people contained or channelled to control points. if they combine the fence project with photo sensors that trigger an alarm monitored by a computer their servicability is further enhanced. this type of combined system provides a good indication to where the hot spots are, allowing for further refinement of where they will need boots on the ground security and how that changes seasonally. there are going to be lots of people employed in the erection and maintenance of that fence, it is a good thing.
what would you have the government do, collect all the trillions it does in the form of taxes and use the money to simply grow bigger? let them build build build it's better for us when they do. keep in mind that securing our border is one of the few legitimate responsibilities that are clearly a federal obligation. one that are currently woefully failing in. I believe the detention centers and the wall project to be steps in the right direction. I hope they erect a few detention centers here in my work areas, I need the money.
-
The metaphors liberal and conservative in this context are buzzwords used by those who can't, or are unwilling to, communicate with clarity.
In the context we're talking about the term conservative means resistant to change, and adherent to traditional ways. Liberal means reformative or progressive.
Most often you will hear this word misused, either out of deciet or ignorance, by parties to label somebody who doesn't agree on some issue.
With regards to US citizens; anybody advocating something that isn't congruent with the constitutional guidelines is liberal on that particular subject. For example substance prohibition and adding "in god we trust" to the dollar are issues just as liberal as gun control or federal income tax is.
As far as conservativeness and liberalness, the republicans and democrats are pretty much equal.
-
The ultimate irony is that during Lincoln's day a Classic Liberal was a Republican.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
According to this:
http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=eed74d9d44c30493706fe03f4c9b3a77&fark
Halliburton has just received a $365 million contract to build detention centers across the US. As Fark quipped, "trust us, (they) will never ever be used to hold dissenting citizens."
If you're not concerned, y'all still aren't paying attention. Even if you completely trust the current administration from the deepest parts of your heart and believe that they represent everything that's fantastic about trustworthiness, character, and unadulterated fantasticness, can you imagine how something like this might/will be abused by subsequent administrations?
What is the purpose of this, anyhow? Also, even if you approve of it, how does this possibly jibe with the idea that the current administration represents smaller government?
Hmmm..........
Actually Chair, .. those things have been around for awhile now. Looked at a few here and there. They appear to be designed to keep people in not out. IIRC there is one or two near Sacramento CA. and some others scattered here and there all through the western U.S. Reports seem to indicate they are all over the U.S. Was told at the time it was thought they were connected with FEMA?
Seems now their building more of em................
I don't trust our current Gov, didn't trust Slik Willy n his crew, don't expect i'll trust our next gov either.
I tend to think this way...............
“The welfare of the people in particular has always been the alibi of tyrants, and it provides the further advantage of giving the servants of tyranny a good conscience.” —Albert Camus
"Dangerous laws created by well intentioned people today can be used by dangerous people with evil intentions tomorrow." - Alan Eppers
"Good intentions will always be pleaded for every assumption of authority. It is hardly too strong to say that the Constitution was made to guard the people against the dangers of good intentions. There are men in all ages who mean to govern well, but they mean to govern. They promise to be good masters, but they mean to be masters." —Daniel Webster
sooooo............... I don't trust em.
Wonder who will control em?
Maybe you should relax Chair? These things may not be for you. Might be where their gonna put the Christians? You know the ones that are wired with bombs? Wait.... that don't sound right? Suicide is a big NO-NO with em so wirin themselves with bombs n goin boom is also a NO-NO? Never mind.
-
I spent 6 years traveling the country working on control systems in prisons for a company in Memphis--quit a couple years ago when my wife got cancer---there are maybe TEN companies in the whole country that are qualified to bid on a 1000+ bed prison (the one I worked for is going under) One of the last ones my company (it wasn't primary contractor, it only did electronics and detentions hardware) was in Lake Wales, FL--that place held 1200, cost about 70 million in 1990 dollars. Ive been to facilities in some 35 states, and the ones that are dedicated to US Marshals/ INS are ALWAYS filled to capacity. If you need SEVERAL such facilities built at once, Halliburton is gonna be the outfit to get it done
-
Well, I agreed with ya Wrag until you got all crazy like a hothouse rat in the last paragraph.
Storch, you stated two choices: 1. The government uses money it collects to build detention centers, or 2. The government just uses the money to get bigger.
I'd like to propose a 3rd choice: That the government not take that money in the first place. Minimum services. Smaller government. No welfare state, either social or corporate. The government is not a make-work organization, or at least it shouldn't be.
-
Originally posted by Hornet33
Oh if it's for illegal migrants I think $365 million will buy a whole lot of chain link fence, concertinia wire, and surplus Army tents don't you? Lot's of unused space out in New Mexico, and Arizona to build a tent city on.
boy this is sounding like a better Idea the further down the post that I read.
-
It's allways healthy when imprisoning people, and the infrastructure therein, is a growing contributor to a nation's economy.
-
Chairboy I agree with you whole heartedly, that however is just not happening. my pragmatic solution is keep paying my taxes and in turn take as much work from the cities, counties, state and feds as they are willing to give me. it's a reciprocating economy the more the fed spends the more there is in the marketplace to go around and it does begin with uncle sugar, believe it.
-
Originally posted by bj229r
I spent 6 years traveling the country working on control systems in prisons for a company in Memphis--quit a couple years ago when my wife got cancer---there are maybe TEN companies in the whole country that are qualified to bid on a 1000+ bed prison (the one I worked for is going under) One of the last ones my company (it wasn't primary contractor, it only did electronics and detentions hardware) was in Lake Wales, FL--that place held 1200, cost about 70 million in 1990 dollars. Ive been to facilities in some 35 states, and the ones that are dedicated to US Marshals/ INS are ALWAYS filled to capacity. If you need SEVERAL such facilities built at once, Halliburton is gonna be the outfit to get it done
that's what these guys don't understand, also haliburton sub contracts alot of their work and when they do your money is in the bank within thirty days as opposed to waiting 45-90 days for the gubment. haliburton does a great job at what they do. some of you guys are hung up on what they get for the excellent services they provide as if it were your money being spent.
-
Storch, I respect that you have a difference in opinion, but it sounds like the old adage to the lady that she "might as well lay back and enjoy it".
-
Hasn't this been covered a few times over already?
The laws, executors of the laws, and legislators directly responsible for writing them are, in majority, corrupt. Detention centers would compound the problem.
Fixing what's broke comes first.
Unless those responsible for this thing are myopic, amnesiac, or stupid, addressing the problem at hand by complicating it proves their interests are elsewhere.
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
Storch, I respect that you have a difference in opinion, but it sounds like the old adage to the lady that she "might as well lay back and enjoy it".
As a previous user of some of Haliburton and KBRs services they are a primo govt contractor. Very few company's in the world could do, let alone manage, what they do.
-
Originally posted by Gunslinger
As a previous user of some of Haliburton and KBRs services they are a primo govt contractor. Very few company's in the world could do, let alone manage, what they do.
they certainly are
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
Storch, I respect that you have a difference in opinion, but it sounds like the old adage to the lady that she "might as well lay back and enjoy it".
chairboy, you don't think we shouldn't pay any taxes do you? sure I would like to pay less taxes but I don't feel like I'm getting reamed. if I compare what we pay for what we get in return in the form of our military, our interstate highway system, infrastructure etc, the services we provide for our elderly, our crippled, our idiots our indolents and our neighbors, we probably don't pay enough. hell just ask any democrat, they'll all agree with that statement. compared to other G8s we have the best ratio of taxes to services on earth.
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
Well, I agreed with ya Wrag until you got all crazy like a hothouse rat in the last paragraph.
Storch, you stated two choices: 1. The government uses money it collects to build detention centers, or 2. The government just uses the money to get bigger.
I'd like to propose a 3rd choice: That the government not take that money in the first place. Minimum services. Smaller government. No welfare state, either social or corporate. The government is not a make-work organization, or at least it shouldn't be.
Actually Chair.... that last paragraph in the post I made, IMHO, only takes into consideration your past post regarding Christians. I SEEM to recall at one point the comparison of Christians to the violent portion of Islam. Thought I'd put it in for you. Have I somehow missunderstood your stance? Please!!!! If I have, If I lack understanding, correct me.
BTW I like and agree with your 3rd choice. That would be my choice also.
-
prisons are nothing but detention camps and any real detention camps that rounded up citizens could be built by the military in days.
I agree that we pay to many taxes and we should pay a hundred times less with 100 times less govenment involvement in our lives but...
If the government has any real duty it is to protect our borders... The way to do it is with mandatory jail sentances for employers of aliens and some kind of patroled fence. If detention centers are still needed then build em... use whatever money they use for useless welfare programs.
I would not get to upset about an article in a berkley paper "for the new American"
I am not a "new American" and I don't want a new constitution... I want the old one to be enforced.
lazs
-
Originally posted by storch
some of you guys post as if the federal government building stuff is a bad thing. I provide service for the port authority here in dade and broward counties. I greatly appreciate the money the federal government puts back into the local economy.
Of course they have to steal it out of someone else's local economy first, but who cares about them right?
Wealth re-distribution....it does a commie good.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
Of course they have to steal it out of someone else's local economy first, but who cares about them right?
Wealth re-distribution....it does a commie good.
what in the world are you blathering about sir? we pay taxes, these taxes collected provide the capital necessary with which the government operates. pretty simple formula.
your statement is even more ludicrous when one considers that you are a canadian citizen and are taxed far greater than we are here. futhermore your tax dollars go much father to restrict your freedoms, to the point you guys are all wards of the state.
-
Storch, you may wish to remember that 'taxes' are not a fixed figure.
If you collect $10 in taxes but only needed to collect $5, then the extra $5 are not 'bonus bucks' to be spent on infrastructure/government programs. It's $5 too much that was collected.
You appear to be operating under the impression that the amount collected can never go down, so we might as well hope they spend it on useful things. I feel, on the other hand, that the government should only collect the bare minimum needed to do the job I expect it to, a figure which (based on contracts like this) is lower than what is being collected.
-
If you need SEVERAL such facilities built at once, Halliburton is gonna be the outfit to get it done
Maybe so. For that, we could likely blame a lax FTC that had little oversight on mergers and acquisitions during the Clinton years with no change in sight under the Republicans. If there was any real oversight on the spending (unless whistleblowers force it) then it might be acceptable. But oversignt on out tax dollars is virtually absent, whether you're talking about Haliburton Iraq, or Katrina response or what exactly happend to all the money spent on the Department of Homeland Security.
what would you have the government do, collect all the trillions it does in the form of taxes and use the money to simply grow bigger?
... my pragmatic solution is keep paying my taxes and in turn take as much work from the cities, counties, state and feds as they are willing to give me. it's a reciprocating economy the more the fed spends the more there is in the marketplace to go around and it does begin with uncle sugar, believe it.
that's what these guys don't understand, also haliburton sub contracts alot of their work and when they do your money is in the bank within thirty days as opposed to waiting 45-90 days for the gubment. haliburton does a great job at what they do. some of you guys are hung up on what they get for the excellent services they provide as if it were your money being spent.
Wait a minute -- it IS my money being spent. The fact that others benefit from this waste beyond Haliburton's top shareholders doesn't make me feel better about wasting MY money. I could care less that others milk the system.
As a previous user of some of Haliburton and KBRs services they are a primo govt contractor. Very few company's in the world could do, let alone manage, what they do.
But we don't have much coice in the matter, do we? And just what do those primo services cost. At least $8 billion has been misspent in Iraq, and one can imagine that for each dollar exposed by a whistleblower there is more waiting to be found, perhaps a lot more, just like the huge waste that came out of Katrina. For example:
Marie deYoung, a former Army chaplain who worked for Halliburton, was so upset by attacks on the company she e-mailed the CEO in December with a strategy on how to fight the "political slurs." But today, after five months inside Halliburton's operation in Kuwait, deYoung has radically changed her opinion. "It’s just a gravy train," she said.
DeYoung audited accounts for Halliburton’s subsidiary KBR. She claims there was no effort to hold down costs because all costs were passed on directly to taxpayers. She repeatedly complained to superiors of waste and fraud. The company's response, according to deYoung was: "We can be as dumb and stupid as we want in the first year of a war, nobody’s going to care."
DeYoung produced documents detailing alleged waste even on routine services: $50,000 a month for soda, at $45 a case; $1 million a month to clean clothes — or $100 for each 15-pound bag of laundry.
"That money could have been used to take care of soldiers," she said.
[edit: Soldiers apparently need a better lobby in Washington...]
DeYoung also claims people were paid to do nothing. Mike West says he was one of them. Paid $82,000 a year to be a labor foreman in Iraq, West claims he never had any laborers to supervise. "They said just log 12 hours a day and walk around and look busy," he said. "OK, so we did."
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/5333896/
Wow, that sound a lot like how “no bid” Chicago works under Daley :)
The special inspector general for Iraq reconstruction found that Halliburton’s Kellogg, Brown & Root Services routinely marked all information it gave to the government as proprietary, whether it actually was or not. The government promises not to disclose proprietary data so a company’s most valuable information is not divulged to its competitors.
By marking all information proprietary — including such normally releasable data as labor rates — the company abused federal regulations, the report says.
In effect, Kellogg, Brown & Root turned the regulations “into a mechanism to prevent the government from releasing normally transparent information, thus potentially hindering competition and oversight.”
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15446508/
Perhaps another company could deliver those primo services far more efficiently than Halibutron and its subsidiaries. Again, there is a reason only one company can really deliver these services today, and why Microsoft has 95 percent marketshare, and why Major oil is now 3 companies instead of seven and why defense contracts go to two companies instead of 4 or more for bidding. Some of it is driven by global competition, but a lot is driven by lax oversight and an attitude in Washington that Oligopolies (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oligopoly) and monopolies are good things (largely drive by the subnset of Americans that they are really, really good for).
As Laz noted, policing the borders is a lot easier if you reduce 75 percent of the problem though eliminating the desire to cross. You can then use cost effective technologies and efficient manpower for the rest, and perhaps spend some of that money on the Ports where there is a critical, but solvable need. Ultimately, if you don't catch the terrorists before they near a boder due to intel -- well, our huge physical borders make it unlikely that you will catch a "smart" group of terrorists at all fence or no fence or even huge massive fence.
Charon
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
Storch, you may wish to remember that 'taxes' are not a fixed figure.
If you collect $10 in taxes but only needed to collect $5, then the extra $5 are not 'bonus bucks' to be spent on infrastructure/government programs. It's $5 too much that was collected.
You appear to be operating under the impression that the amount collected can never go down, so we might as well hope they spend it on useful things. I feel, on the other hand, that the government should only collect the bare minimum needed to do the job I expect it to, a figure which (based on contracts like this) is lower than what is being collected.
chairboy, lol I agree with you.
look at it this way the US federal income is just how many trillions now? how can anyone or thing come up with a close let alone precise figure as to how much revenue the gubmint needs to collect? the GAO is there in place but do you think anyone at the GAO has even a remote clue?
would a suggestion of the nature you propose result in yet another federal agency?
the tax system definitely needs revision but take into account the number of people who currently earn living globally because of the nebulous nature of our tax code. if we simplified the tax code to say, 16% across the board for everyone, no exceptions the wailings of a gazillion accountants would reach heaven and bring on armageddon.
are you suggesting the end of the world to save yourself a few bucks each year? God forbid it!
-
Watched that movie " V for Vendetta" the other day, very interesting, making me wonder why all these detention centers are being built, Security of the state I think, Anyone who is reported as a threat to the State will be locked up in these things.
-
all of those years of being opposed to the hard fisted ways of the soviets, only to find out that we want to be just like them.
soon we will rival castro for curtailing freedom of expression and travel. won't we be proud of ourselves then.
-
Originally posted by storch
what in the world are you blathering about sir? we pay taxes, these taxes collected provide the capital necessary with which the government operates. pretty simple formula.
It's simplicity doesn't mean it's inherently moral. And yes, people pay taxes under the theat of imprisonment if they don't. And yes the government blows that money in order to "operate" (and heaven knows it continues to expand what it needs to operate). But none of these facts make the situation a morally sound one.
your statement is even more ludicrous when one considers that you are a canadian citizen and are taxed far greater than we are here.
Oh, hardly far greater. And just because I'm ****ed harder than you are, doesn't mean I like it.
futhermore your tax dollars go much father to restrict your freedoms, to the point you guys are all wards of the state.
Oh whatever,...no! you are an ward of teh state! You can't have it both ways, either government manipulation of the market, and threat is moral and beneficial to the economy as a whole. (in which case you must agree that Canada is better than the US in the aspect because you think Canada is more socialistst han the US) or you don't think it's moral and beneficial in which case the money the goverment steals from tax payers and gives to you is tainted.
PS:
At least I can smoke pot, marry a homo, and online gamble etc. if I so chose. But at the end of the day, arguing about who is being raped hard is retarded, we are still both being raped.
-
Many think that we should clean out congress and the senate... and IMHO I think that would be a great idea. The problem with anything being done towards that idea is that most everyone thinks their congressman/senator is doing a great job..... so things never change, the government is just getting as useless as tits on a boar hog.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
At least I can smoke pot, marry a homo, and online gamble etc. if I so chose. But at the end of the day, arguing about who is being raped hard is retarded, we are still both being raped.
send akak a PM, if you can find nash then you three could be very happy together.
-
Wonder who will get the subcontract for the ovens and smokestacks?
-
Originally posted by storch
send akak a PM, if you can find nash then you three could be very happy together.
Why, they have more in common with a socialist like yourself then a capistist like me.
-
Come to think of it, they are more moderate than you.
Nash likes personal liberty in general, but also likes socialism. So at least there is some desire for freedom there. Where it appears that not only are you against personal liberty, but also want the government to steal from other people and give you thier hard earned money.
-
lol paying your taxes is not the gubmint stealing from anyone. your view, as you have expressed it is infantile and possibly the result of too much indulgence in decriminalized weed.
-
so far as haliburton.... If there is a problem then it is the lazy (or corrupt)federal officials who are in charge of inspecting and overseeing the work and the contract..
All it would take would be for them to do their job or... a private citizens commitee to oversee spending.
Taxes? extorted money under pain of imprissonment or death.
The detention centers probly need to be built at this point.. Can you imagine the outrage if all the illegals rounded up were herded into open pens or some such? "why didn't you build facilities to house them?" would be the cry.
The reason most people hate congress in general but like their guy is also simple. the more their guy robs the rest of the country to give to them... the better they like him... they hate the other guys because they are stealing the money that their guy could be stealing.
lazs
-
I used to work with a guy that hated the united states, and he was born here. All he wanted was a ride to work, a roof over his head and food in the cupboards. Last I heard he had moved to canada.
-
Originally posted by storch
lol paying your taxes is not the gubmint stealing from anyone.
Sure, if I force someone to give me thier money at the point of a gun it's stealing. But it the government does it, somehow...magically it isn't.
It is same damn thing, it's just that people are now indocrinated to think like commies. Hell, in the late 1700s a bunch of US patriots rebelled against the Crown because they were being tax at a rate with was the merest fraction of what you are being taxed now. Tell them that the government taking %30-40+ of someones hard earned wealth isn't stealing and is moral justified. But hey, as long as that stolen money is going to you, why should you care.
-
if you can tell me that you don't see your tax dollars working for the greater good of all our citizens here and making us (north america) the envy of the world then you probably lie about other things as well.
-
Warning! Warning! Alert phrase detected:
"Greater good" is usually used in conjunction with arguments for communism/centralized government/distributed resources/etc. It is a synonym for individual oppression.
I know those aren't your interests, Storch, but it might be worth taking a second gander at some of those key phrases.
-
taxes are a necessity. gubmints are a necessity. a portion of our taxes go to provide for the common defense and even smaller portion is earmarked to provide for those amongst us who would otherwise fall through the cracks and perhaps even starve to death. while it's not perfect and our tax system is woefully lacking and our gubmint is inept and wasteful and bad, that is until you compare it with every other gubmint out there. then we are a shining beacon high upon a mountain top. you guys are a bunch of inbred anarchists with a good halloween costume. I think an extended stay in one of our new detention centers might just be the ticket. be careful be very careful. big brother is watching you and everything you type.
-
Perhaps your last message does less to further your cause than you might have hoped for...
:D
-
Originally posted by storch
if you can tell me that you don't see your tax dollars working for the greater good
Heh, I don't need a nanny government telling me what is good for me and my family, or for our society. You see, as retarded as they are, I trust my fellow citizens much more than ****ing beaucrats and politicians.
of all our citizens here and making us (north america) the envy of the world then you probably lie about other things as well.
No, the citizens are makign north america the envy of the world in spite ofgovernment stealing from them and trying to force them to live their lives a certain way. This is because the citizens of Canada and the US work our collective tulips off and also fund our lifestyles with massive amount of debt. Debt which probably wouldn't be necessary if the government didn't steal well over 1/3 of our hard earned dollars.
But we certainly won't be the envy of the world for much long if this massive amount of socialism we already have continues to grow so profoundly.
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
Perhaps your last message does less to further your cause than you might have hoped for...
:D
surely you jest, notice the above post.
-
my dear thrawn,
these bureaucrats and politicians that you malign are also fellow citizens. they are performing dull and thankless jobs with little recognition for their efforts. they are often underpaid and always unappreciated yet with quiet dedication they gut it up and go to their stations every day to ensure that our gubmint operates smoothly and provides our requisite services. they are there for our benefit, I for one am thankful for their service.
I gladly pay my portion of the tax burden on time each and every quarter and furthermore I donate to various charitable institutions. it gives me great satisfaction to do so and I feel priviledged to be American and to able to participate as a fully vested citizen in our great free enterprise system.
keep this in mind "to he whom much is given, much is expected" gut it up, step up to the plate and be a cheerful and willing participant in the system that made us great.
-
"here in south florida we used to have the krome detention center into which illegal immigrants from the caribbean basin were transported until they could be processed properly or deported.
I see nothing wrong with having proper facilities for processing immigrants, "
No such thing as an illegal immigrant. If you are not in this country legally, then you are an illegal alien. "illegal immigrant" is the enemies way of imparting some status to invaders.
-
I laugh every time the liberals, Mexicans, and other aliens gripe about our right full attempts to secure our borders.
Mexico does not have an issue with invaders from the U.S. crossing their northern border. However, on their own southern border, they are very cruel. They are intolerant of the "illegal immigrants" attempting to cross their southern border.
-
Originally posted by 2Slow
"
I see nothing wrong with having proper facilities for processing immigrants, "
I dont think anybody here would give a rats arse about detention camps, if it werent for the 'enemy combatant' rule.
-
Originally posted by 2Slow
I laugh every time the liberals, Mexicans, and other aliens gripe about our right full attempts to secure our borders.
Mexico does not have an issue with invaders from the U.S. crossing their northern border. However, on their own southern border, they are very cruel. They are intolerant of the "illegal immigrants" attempting to cross their southern border.
If we really wanted to take care of the illegal immigrant problem, we would install a reliable 'legal employee' procedure that would verify any potential employee was legit. Violator employers would be fined severly and imprisoned in a 'detention camp' and labled as an 'enemy combatant'. But since we dont want our food costs to double overnight, we are not going to do this, are we?
-
Originally posted by storch
making us (north america) the envy of the world then you probably lie about other things as well.
Yes, our public education system and health care system is the envy of the world. If you believe that, I have some land in the Everglades you might be interested in buying if you don't own some already.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by storch
my dear thrawn,
these bureaucrats and politicians that you malign are also fellow citizens.
As are criminals, but it doesn't make thier activities any less reprehensible.
they are performing dull and thankless jobs with little recognition for their efforts. they are often underpaid and always unappreciated yet with quiet dedication they gut it up and go to their stations every day to ensure that our gubmint operates smoothly and provides our requisite services.
Smoothly? We are talking about the civil service right? No one is making them work thier crap jobs. They are totally free to quit, I am not free to quit paying taxes.
they are there for our benefit,
Once again, I don't need or want a nanny government to tell me what would or wouldn't benefit me and mine. If I think a service would benefit my family I then I'm sure an entrepeneur will fill that niche. Not only but history has shown that they will provide a cheap and superior product than the government will. It's called a free market.
I gladly pay my portion of the tax burden on time each and every quarter and furthermore I donate to various charitable institutions. it gives me great satisfaction to do so and I feel priviledged to be American and to able to participate as a fully vested citizen in our great free enterprise system.
Bruno robbed John, and gave me $100 bucks for other services rendered. I gladdly gave Bruno $30 kickback. Aren't I wonderful. Shouldn't John think so as well?
Of course it gets even worse.
Bruno robbed John, and gave me $100 bucks for other services rendered. John and I are in the same industry. Bruno is paying me with John's money and so is putting John out of business with his own money.
keep this in mind "to he whom much is given, much is expected" gut it up, step up to the plate and be a cheerful and willing participant in the system that made us great.
"Lay down and enjoy it, it's going to happen anyway."
Such is the call of tyrants for time inmemorial. I wonder what the US's founding fathers would think of that attitude?
-
oh so now you are calling hard working citizens who's employer happens to be the gubmint criminals? that's a bit of a stretch don't you think? I'll remind you that convicted felons are not allowed to vote and are therefore not citizens per se and don't count as citizens.
akak you own no land, in the everglades or anywhere else for that matter. the only dirt you own is that which is forever stored between your ears. I caution you not to sell any of that lest your head cave in.
the finest medical care available on the planet is here. the finest institutes of higher learning are here. the very best in health care is in the USA as are the very best education money can buy. our educational and healthcare systems are second to none. you just need to able to pay for them. since the phonecians invented the concept of money 5000 years back it has proven to be a very good medium of exchange. take your dollars and buy stuff you need with them you'd be amamzed at how well it works, especially in education and health care.
a bonus question. which country has the highest literacy rate in the western hemisphere?
-
Originally posted by storch
oh so now you are calling hard working citizens who's employer happens to be the gubmint criminals? that's a bit of a stretch don't you think?
I'm not even calling the government criminals. After all they are the ones that write the laws that makes thier stealing legal and get to define what a crime is.
I am however saying that thier actions are immoral (and not just immoral, every time a government interfers with the free market the economy is hurt). Whether or not they are hard working, give to charity, and cure sick bunnies is irrelevent. It doesn't change the fact that the government gets it's income from the public at the point of a gun. Nor that those that are employed by or recieve contracts from the government are getting thier ill gotten gains from people who are forced to pay them...whether they wish to or not.
-
my dear thrawn,
the last thing any of us want to see or participate in, or a better definition is to be the victim of unfettered capitalism.
read up on the sherman anti trust act and read further about the underlying reason why that piece of legislation was necessary.
-
30%?????
How you figure 30%????
You figure all the taxes put on everything from start to finish? From growing/creating it to it's purchase/use?
Might wanna make that closer to 60% in TOTAL taxes paid out by the American consumer.
Thats nearly 60% of your income going to some form of taxation. Thats not going to the actual purchase mind you! Thats added on by the gubmint!
As to the schools being so good ? The USA isn't setting so pretty there! Several other countries are doing MUCH better. And the controls within the school systems are going away from the tax payer/parents and going to the gubmint types. They say it's FOR THE GREATER GOOD! isn't that special
Health care? Sure we are doing well there but a major reason is gubmint ain't got so much control there as in other countries. Course Slik Willy n his crew wanted to change that............
-
Chairboy, I think that the detention centers are being built to house Democratic voters. The Federal government just rounded up thousands of them, in a nationwide sweep, and perhaps not so coincidentally, just before the Tuesday elections.
10,733 arrested (http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20061102/us_nm/crime_fugitives_dc_1) :aok
-
storch...if you don't pay your taxes they will take everything you own and put you in prison.. if you resist they will kill you. that is all there is to it.
The more we pay in taxes the stronger the government becomes and the less freedom we have as individuals. That is all there is to it.
All tax should be an enterprise fund with civilian oversight. In other words... if you want an army it is the armed forces tax... that money only goes to the military. If you want roads you have a road tax and that money goes only to roads... There would be no "general fund" for the politicians to dip their beaks into. You shouldn't use road taxes to fund stem cell research for instance.
I would further say that all tax should be a consumer tax.. sales tax.. with no income tax.
As for the detention centers... if they ever round up citizens they won't bother to build "centers" first and warn everyone... they will just sting a bunch of barbed wire out in the desert.
lazs
-
Originally posted by lazs2
All tax should be an enterprise fund with civilian oversight. In other words... if you want an army it is the armed forces tax... that money only goes to the military. If you want roads you have a road tax and that money goes only to roads... There would be no "general fund" for the politicians to dip their beaks into. You shouldn't use road taxes to fund stem cell research for instance.
lazs
Wow. I agree with lazs??? How come you like the repubicans?? Tax is a necessity and a direct result of and (should be) proportional to spending?? And the repubs are now spending at an all time high. THis can only be recovered by tax revenues??
-
Lemme add one Lazs, drop social security for a retirement fund. All money paid in to be used for retirement only and not for subsidizing welfare.
-
whitehawk... there is spending and then there is spending...
The republicans typicaly spend on wars.... wars get paid for. I got no problem with the billions spent on wars besides if we need to be there or not.... allways debateable but in the end.... well... we aren't still paying for even vietnam.
Now.. there is the other spending... the bribe you for your vote kind.. democrat socialist welfare state spending... this is the kind of spending that not only doesn't get paid off but.... it grows... it grows every year no matter who is in power... once you addict people to an "entitlement" (love that word) the money needed to support it grows every year...
Imagine if there were no socical security to pay off or welfare.
Sooo... while I have no love for Republicans... I have no choice but to vote for them.... the new democrats make FDR and LBJ seem like heartless cheapskates who didn't care if people died in the streets.
If you elect democrats they come up with new entitilement socialist programs that grow every year... there is no end to the expense.... if it costa a billion a year when it is introduced it will be several trillion a year before the decade ends.
Never vote for a democrat..
Never vote for a new tax.
Never vote to ban anything.
These seem like simple rules but peoples greed and sloth sometimes make em violate these simple rules.
lazs
-
the point is they don't make me pay my taxes, I do so voluntarily. it is my obligation as a citizen and participant in our great free enterprise system. this is what I believe eg. this is what I do.
-
Storch: Perhaps the basic disagreement here is that Lazs and I appear to agree that waste and "spend it if you got it" use of public funds is inappropriate, and you seem to argue that the waste and kingdom building that makes the government stronger and the citizens weaker is not only unavoidable, but actually a good thing.
-
how is it any of us are weaker? I'm certainly not any weaker today than I was on November 3, 2000. in fact, quite the opposite I'm far stronger, in no small part because of the added revenue we have been able to collect from contracts being awarded by the homeland security department via the different port authorities and by private service providers that supply the airlines and cruise industries. I suspect that this windfall has been spread out evenly where ever there is an airport or maritime facilities nationwide and not just south florida. consider that these significant economic pluses are ocurring while we are the beneficiaries of good tax cuts on all levels and have a very strong economy. private home ownership is at a record high and people are making good money.
say it ain't so.
-
Well, that's MY money you're so enthusiastic about having received. If you personally gain from the federal contracts that make government bigger, then I suppose your impartiality would be somewhat in question.
-
Originally posted by storch
the point is they don't make me pay my taxes, I do so voluntarily. it is my obligation as a citizen and participant in our great free enterprise system. this is what I believe eg. this is what I do.
No, any sense of "voluntarily paying your taxes" is a myth. Try not paying your taxes and see what can happen. When there is gun pointed at your head, it's really not voluntary.
ack-ack
-
it's not your money, it's not my money. it's the money you have to spend to pay for your use of the highways, infrastructure, parks, coastlines waterways, to be able to go about your business with a fairly reasonable assumption that you will be home for supper without being killed by a foreign invader. geez you guys remind of the fat guy complaining about the farmer, with his mouth full.
-
here we go again. it's voluntary on my part. I believe it to be a necessary expenditure. if the IRS never ever enforced and no one else paid their fair share, I would still pay mine. it's an obligation, I as a man who is the beneficiary of this great way of life, of this the best form of government in the entire history of humankind feel obligated by my sense of right and wrong to pay my fair share. don't you see it's a matter of principal? we must all pay our own way. friends, in life we must each bear our own burdens. taxation is as necessary and correct as is the need to eat and to drink and to breathe. it's not good or bad, it just is.
besides even if I didn't believe all of that (and I do) I would type it just to argue with you guys.
-
Originally posted by storch
Don't you see it's a matter of principal? we must all pay our own way. friends, in life we must each bear our own burdens. taxation is as necessary and correct as is the need to eat and to drink and to breathe. it's not good or bad, it just is.
besides even if I didn't believe all of that (and I do) I would type it just to argue with you guys.
What about a tax on eating, drinking and breathing? That'll make good revenue..
The principle is taxing when it's necessary, not when any lawmaker fancies it.
[...]reasonable assumption that you will be home for supper without being killed by a foreign invader.
You mean detention centers would stop foreign invasion?
-
Emotion, particularly pride, displaces reason. Intellectual integrity, look it up, understand it, embrace it.
-
Originally posted by Chairboy
According to this:
http://news.pacificnews.org/news/view_article.html?article_id=eed74d9d44c30493706fe03f4c9b3a77&fark
Halliburton has just received a $365 million contract to build detention centers across the US. As Fark quipped, "trust us, (they) will never ever be used to hold dissenting citizens."
If you're not concerned, y'all still aren't paying attention. Even if you completely trust the current administration from the deepest parts of your heart and believe that they represent everything that's fantastic about trustworthiness, character, and unadulterated fantasticness, can you imagine how something like this might/will be abused by subsequent administrations?
What is the purpose of this, anyhow? Also, even if you approve of it, how does this possibly jibe with the idea that the current administration represents smaller government?
They are for 08 when Bush refuses to leave office. And has all the Democrats and political enemies interned there and assumes the throne of the USA and is proclaimed "Dictator for life" by the hand picked Republican controlled Senate.
Hmmm. seems I've heard a similar story before somewhere :noid
-
Who was that reply for, Suave?
-
Originally posted by storch
the point is they don't make me pay my taxes, I do so voluntarily. it is my obligation as a citizen and participant in our great free enterprise system. this is what I believe eg. this is what I do.
Laz's point is that if you for any reason do NOT pay your tax...........
you will be in BIG trouble.
-
since that will never happen the point is moot. my point is this, since some of these guys are so against paying taxes, don't. if I felt the way some of these posters do, I wouldn't. it shows a tremendous lack of conviction and courage to feel something is wrong and to go ahead and do it just because you fear the consequences. they're just poltroonish, they may howl about it but are willing to nothing except cry.
-
Originally posted by storch
since that will never happen the point is moot. my point is this, since some of these guys are so against paying taxes, don't. if I felt the way some of these posters do, I wouldn't. it shows a tremendous lack of conviction and courage to feel something is wrong and to go ahead and do it just because you fear the consequences. they're just poltroonish, they may howl about it but are willing to nothing except cry.
It was tried in the mid 70s by some. They're now in jail, for a very long time, or dead. So doing what your saying they should or, that you would if you felt the way you believe they feel, is very nearly like committing suicide.
What many are objecting too isn't taxes so much! It's the way our gubmint uses what is takin and how they take it, that brings out the objections of most. The original income tax act was set up as a VOLUNTAIRY system and was intended to be used to pay WAR debts. It got WAY out of control. It's pretty clear in the original documents.
Question >>>> Do you really believe the patriot act was made for patriots?
Question >>>> Do you REALLY believe that taxes, yep JUST TAXES doesn't eat up just abit over 50% of every one of your dollars?
-
storch.. the more taxes you pay the stronger your government gets and the less freedom you have. It is that simple...
You won't even realize it untill it is your ox that is being gored and then you will howl like a banshee... You won't resist tho because... for one thing... you are a complacent type.. and for another... you will be imprissoned or killed if you resist.
You won't even know the crap you got the rest of us in until it is too late. You will blame the other party while for it.. when in reality... It was you who voted in the power they are using against you.
lazs
-
Yep.
-
I'm strongly oppose the patriot act. I I alwys vote no on any new taxes. tax freedom day is in mid may now so it's just under 50% overall. compare that to the amount taxes paid by citizens of our G8 cousins.
-
Originally posted by storch
my dear thrawn,
these bureaucrats and politicians that you malign are also fellow citizens. they are performing dull and thankless jobs with little recognition for their efforts. they are often underpaid
If you're talking about cops, I agree. I was underpaid.
But congress people?, they don't struggle:
Dennis Hastert made $3 million by buying land and using his power to build a tax payer fnded freeway near it.
Maxine Waters kids have scamed $450,000 / $115,000 respectively, her husband $500,000.. all thanks to mom being in congress.
A long time friend of Rep. Charles Taylor has been involved in a series of fraudulent loans totaling $2.27 million Taylor has also taken 10 tax payer paid trips to Russia to further his business interests.
Rep Gary Miller In 2005 made between $1.1 and $6 million using his power to leverage real estate deals. Miller also earmarked $1.28M in tax payer $$ for street improvements near a planned residential community he owns.
Rep. John Sweeney invited 53 people to join him from January 6-9, 2006, for a “Congressional Winter Challenge” at the Lake Placid Olympic facilities. His guests enjoyed pretending to be Olympic athletes, all paid for with New York taxpayer dollars... how many citizens get that?
In return for writing two letters, Rep. Pete Sessions received a total of $20,500 from those he helped. After receiving $30,000 in soft dollars from a tech company, Sessions earmarked $800K, with another $8M in tax dollars for that company.
...and there's the dude who had $90K in his freezer.
-
those are a very small percentage of the politicians. but they do tarnish the whole profession. I think the police, first responders, teachers, infrastructure workers, clerks, medical personel, career diplomats, bureaucrats and our armed services people are all underpaid.
I wouldn't perform any of those jobs for what they get paid even in the top positions let alone the starting salaries.
-
Originally posted by storch
I'm strongly oppose the patriot act. I I alwys vote no on any new taxes. tax freedom day is in mid may now so it's just under 50% overall. compare that to the amount taxes paid by citizens of our G8 cousins.
Nope!!!!
Your INCOME taxes are paid on that date.
You are paying taxes continually all year long.
Phone tax, fuel tax, purchase tax, etc etc etc
Then you have the so called hidden taxes.
The ones charged to the shippers, manufacturer, merchandiser, ... the list goes on................. these are ALL passed on to the buyer by adding to the purchase price/cost!
You are paying about 60% of each dollar into some tax or another.
-
nope tax freedom day is when you are theoretically done with all your tax burden for the year. this year it's actually April 17 2007.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day
-
Originally posted by storch
nope tax freedom day is when you are theoretically done with all your tax burden for the year. this year it's actually April 17 2007.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_Freedom_Day
HUH? IMHO there is NO SUCH thing as TAX FREEDOM DAY.
-
I used to think that cops were underpaid but do not think so now.
There is no requirement that they be in good enough shape to defend or help me... same for firemen... they requirements for the job are very minor and they make about 60K a year without any overtime... or... any rise above patrolman... they get 3% per year pers retirement at 50 so can retire with pretty much a full salary at 50.
They are a colection of small women and weak men these days who are afraid of their own firearms. The fire department is not much better for the most part.
lazs
-
lazs, I'm sure glad I don't live in your town. most of the police and first responders here are not only physically fit but also pretty good at what they do.
many of the policemen I know are pretty poor shots and I love taunting them at the range but they "aren't afraid of their weapons" as you put it. I agree with you though and I'm not a big fan of the police department but it's a necessary job, a thankless one at that. sixty grand a year is chump change especially considering that they just might not make it home for supper one night because some bottom feeder got angry.
all in all law enforcement has my respect collectively, though not always individually. my view is that I don't necessarily have to respect the man but I can respect his profession and treat that person with the due respect his job entitles him to have. my view comes from considering what they do to earn their money and the realization that they couldn't pay me enough to do that every day.
-
as I typed this up above a serious accident occured on I-95 in the southbound lanes at NW 135st. a gasoline tanker jackknifed and fell 18 feet from an overpass onto NW 135st (a major east west artery in north miami) and caught fire. within minutes first responders had contained the fires with no loss to property in the immediate area. there are church, business, residential and school properties. the church was in immediate danger of catching fire. sadly the truckdriver pershied in the accident. my tax dollars at work in sterling form. thank you first responders.
-
Originally posted by storch
my tax dollars at work in sterling form.
So, private industry probably would have done the job better and cheaper.
-
Originally posted by Thrawn
So, private industry probably would have done the job better and cheaper.
there are some services that are not handled better by private industry. garbage collection is one, emergency services is another. besides since you oppose paying taxes they would never come to your house.
-
Storch, I can't tell if you're deliberately distorting our views on taxes or if you simply don't understand that, for the most part, we object to OVER-taxation. If you can't differentiate between criticizing waste, overtaxation, and empire building, then you may be operating under some dramatically incorrect conceptions about the issue being discussed.
-
Originally posted by storch
there are some services that are not handled better by private industry. garbage collection is one
What a fascinating example!
http://www.wastec.org/NSWMA/Service_At_A_Bargain.pdf
Nationally, garbage collection is handled by private industry at a significant savings.
-
well now here's an area I am very familiar with. I reside in one town and own a business in the adjacent town. the town where my business is located utilizes a nationally known waste service removal contractor and I pay nearly double the fee directly to this outfit for terrible service. I have dragged them before a magistrate on several occassions, prevailed with my complaint not paid for the services, collected my attorney's fees and they keep performing badly!!! the town where my business was located before collected the refuse themselves in a timely fashion for 40% less money. the town I live in has even picked up garbage the day after a hurricane. in the aftermath of the hurricane they collected whatever was placed curbside for months, no restrictions. the town where my business is located had to sub contract the county to help out because the contractor refused to collect hurricane debris.
you guys have been arguing with me about about paying basic taxes. the impression I get is you guys are completely against any form of taxation.
my argument is that
1. we are not overly or unfairly taxed and we are taxed with representation. even the federal income tax was approved by voters of the period. the income tax is not an illegal tax.
2. no one, even the gubmint can place an exact figure on just what the exact amount of tax needs to be.
I am against any and all tax increases and always vote against them, the citizens here generally approve tax increases almost every election cycle. this is how our gubmint runs, it works better than anyone else's in the world. I agree though, it's still flawed and needs tweaking.
-
Originally posted by storch
well now here's an area I am very familiar with. I reside in one town and own a business in the adjacent town. the town where my business is located utilizes a nationally known waste service removal contractor and I pay nearly double the fee directly to this outfit for terrible service. I have dragged them before a magistrate on several occassions, prevailed with my complaint not paid for the services, collected my attorney's fees and they keep performing badly!!! the town where my business was located before collected the refuse themselves in a timely fashion for 40% less money. the town I live in has even picked up garbage the day after a hurricane. in the aftermath of the hurricane they collected whatever was placed curbside for months, no restrictions. the town where my business is located had to sub contract the county to help out because the contractor refused to collect hurricane debris.
you guys have been arguing with me about about paying basic taxes. the impression I get is you guys are completely against any form of taxation.
my argument is that
1. we are not overly or unfairly taxed and we are taxed with representation. even the federal income tax was approved by voters of the period. the income tax is not an illegal tax.
2. no one, even the gubmint can place an exact figure on just what the exact amount of tax needs to be.
I am against any and all tax increases and always vote against them, the citizens here generally approve tax increases almost every election cycle. this is how our gubmint runs, it works better than anyone else's in the world. I agree though, it's still flawed and needs tweaking.
Not arguing about BASIC taxes. Arguing about what we see as OVER taxation.
Taxes are necassary. OVER TAXATION is NOT!
I have noticed that my statement that over 50% of each dollar we spend goes toward taxes has been ignored.
The No. 1 of your argument is more a case of view point. AND by the original tax law the Income Tax we all now pay by april 15 was supposed to be totally VOLUNTARY! That is a major reason it got passed. Furthermore a person could withdraw from paying Income Tax when that law was originaly written. In fact if you look at it that part is STILL written within the text of that law. But just try it! See where it gets you.
Not saying it's illegal saying it has gone WAY beyond it's original intent and become a MONSTER! Part of the reason it did so was the COLD WAR.
-
Storch, since you've stepped around this point a number of times, I'll repeat it a few times to see if it can get your attention:
We are against OVER-taxation.
We are against OVER-taxation.
We are against OVER-taxation.
If you continue to blithely suggest that we're a bunch of tax dodging anarchists, the only credibility hurt is your own.
What you have established:
1. You enjoy paying taxes.
2. Our current taxes are fine.
3. You directly benefit from big pork projects that make government better because you get their contracts, so you can't fathom why those of us whos money is being spent on you might possibly object to empire building.
-
storch.. I don't know about where you live but here trash collection is indeed handled by private companies and they do a very good job..
As the standards for police and fire continue to decline I would expect that we will have no choice but to privatize these services.
lazs
-
Just about all taxation is over taxation.
Everyone is going to have a different idea of what services they just need someone else to pay for. It all depends on one's special interests and thier sense of entitlement.
-
it's under 50% but let's say it's 50% for argument's sake. what is the tax rate in other industrialized nations? during the johnson administration the tax rate was approaching 80% in some brackets.
now if you ask me would I like to pay less taxes then the answer is yes of course I would. would I refuse to pay the taxes I'm legal required to pay? never. why? because it is my obligation as a beneficiary of this great republic to shoulder my share of the load.
my position on this topic is not predicated upon whether or not I'm awarded government contracts. the work the government subs out will have to be performed by someone. I'm qualified by training, experience, business acumen and financial ability to bid on and win some of these contracts in a competetive bidding environment. I see it as another way for me to provide my country a useful service and the government is still getting back from me what I was initially trained to do as a petty officer in the United States Navy.
-
storch... I am very glad that the good people of boston didn't feel as you do a few hundred years ago about how they were obligated to pay taxes no matter how unfair.
lazs
-
if you feel that way about it lazs, then do what they did. that's what I would do if I held your opinion. keep in mind that the American colonies were being taxed but without representation in parliment. that would be grounds for civil disobedience in my opinion but that isn't the case with us today.
-
As the standards for police and fire continue to decline I would expect that we will have no choice but to privatize these services. - Lazs
Gubmint employees get institutionalized and once they latch onto that gubmint teat and swell up like fat swollen lice, they lose their ambitions. Their muscles atrophy and pretty soon they forget how to do an honest days work even if they wanted to, but you can't get rid of the damn things!
-
Originally posted by storch
it's under 50% but let's say it's 50% for argument's sake. what is the tax rate in other industrialized nations? during the johnson administration the tax rate was approaching 80% in some brackets.
now if you ask me would I like to pay less taxes then the answer is yes of course I would. would I refuse to pay the taxes I'm legal required to pay? never. why? because it is my obligation as a beneficiary of this great republic to shoulder my share of the load.
my position on this topic is not predicated upon whether or not I'm awarded government contracts. the work the government subs out will have to be performed by someone. I'm qualified by training, experience, business acumen and financial ability to bid on and win some of these contracts in a competetive bidding environment. I see it as another way for me to provide my country a useful service and the government is still getting back from me what I was initially trained to do as a petty officer in the United States Navy.
If you are willing to take the time and do the research I think you will find that it is 50% or so very close to that it's not worth arguing over.
I'm not talking JUST INCOME TAX either. I'm talking ALL the taxes that are added on to products we all purchase nearly on a daily bases.
Add em all together and our tax bill gets WAY up there.
As to legally obliged to pay, did you miss the point that our so called income tax was supposed to be voluntary? That we the people were supposed to be able to withdraw from paying those taxes any time we wished?
What most complain about isn't so much the taxes, it's the way our gubmint is going about gettin those taxes, and what we see as wasteful spending of those tax dollars.
We watch as our gubmint keeps getting bigger and bigger and seems to want more and more..................