Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Eaglecz on August 26, 2001, 05:45:00 AM
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Did any Tiffie or Yak driver noticed , that about 5 bullets from .50 cal from dist. over 700 yards into your TAIL will take out your ENGINE,RADIATOR ? :rolleyes:
btw.: i saw dark green p47 yesterday. He got 5 ping from Tiffies hispanos 2 left wing, 1 right wing 2 directly engine, it was about 250 .... he had no damage.....
Seems GOD realy love those nuclear bastards :cool:
Orel
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You can imagine how the LW fliers feel like towards the WHOLE allied guys :D
ps) OOPS! was that a whine? :D
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Rosey the Riviter could make planes better than Igor, the German Slave could.
Don't you watch TV?
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HTC...my airplane not good like other plane , please fix
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Yet for some obscure reason the LA7 seems particularly resistant to 50 cal fighter. Who ever was biasing the game against the Russians missed one I guess.
Will be interesting to see if the P39 and P40 come in non magic bullet varieties for the russians
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If you hear 1 ping it can mean that you were hit with 1 bullet... or 10.
.50 has very good predictable trajectory, and with them it is easy to hit at big distances... but I still prefer cannons big time, they make snapshots easier.
Fariz
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Look people before we leap at each others throats with accusations of collaboration with the enemy(add your prefered hated group of flyers here) why dont we take a look at what we all have a problem with?
you say you was hit on the tail and your engine gives out...suggest take a look at damage model
the 190s also suffer from this 1 hit engine out or oil hit engine dies in a second...suggest take a look at damage model
p38 seems to have a glass tail, ive noticed that if you hit the tail you EXPECT it to fall off.(i like it as im LW but must admit it does seem a little easy to take off and i aim for the tail).....suggest look at damage model
we had a slight change on armour for the ground vehicles and now the once weak M16 is now a titanium bunker :)....suggest look at damage model
I think we are falling into the old trap , we each have our favourites and we fly them so much that eventually you notice when certain things happen all the time on that particular aircraft.the russian guys seem to have a similar problem to what the 190 guys have.The p38 has a similar problem to what the M3/M16 had.
Lets just ask pyro to check the model for us instead of accusing them of trying to ruin the game for us.
Its not wrong of me to suspect the damage model isnt perfect because we have seen quite clearly with the panzers/ostys/M16s armour it wasnt behaving correctly.Im not trying to run the game down i just want it as fair as possible.When i see my engine quit the moment the oil is hit,or 1 ack hit immediately kills my engine/takes tail off 90% of the time.I hit a p38 on the tail with light cals and it folds etc i tend to want it looked at to see if its just me or theres something that needs adjusting.
lets just get together and request it instead of bickering about LWwhiners or whats the new one for russian whiners? sheeesh its like kindergarden!
[ 08-26-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]
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I probly shoot as many planes with browning fifties as anyone and i take every shot no matter how tough. Here is what I've found.
The most fragile plane to fifties by a large margin is the spitfire. Any deflection shot will shred it. from the rear the same burst will only cause light damage.
the zeke is tougher by far than the spit. All the German planes act the same to fifties. If they even take damage...They will lose (oil smoke) an engine after a good burst but taking off a wing or killing the pilot is about as tough as a P51 or F6f. Lags are fairly tough and niks are WAY to tough to fifties. A p47 is much easier to kill with fifties than a nik.
A cannon potato shooting my cripples will allways... er 90% of the time... get the kill.
all the above are using 6 browning fifties zeroed in at 450 yards.
lazs
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Last night in my 190, i was strafing M16s. I got a good few kills, but i could never get more than 3 or 4 m16s, before i would have to emergency land my plane, for radiator, or engine oil, or the insta-quit engine.
This i can understand, because my engine is the point nearest the GV, and hes aiming for the largest part of my cross section.
A plane on my 6 however, is behind me and firing at the rear of my cross section. He cant really see my engine from that angle, so how does it get hit?
Then there are the HO, im heading towards a plane, both aiming at the front of each others plane and my rear fuselage section will come off and my engine will be fine.
I think the way bullets hit other planes needs to be worked on, and im sure HTC will be using my $15 a month investment to put that right ;)
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Fuselage = Large round/oval structure that all other parts are attached to. Ussually lightly built of stresed metal (aluminum) riveted to metal frames. Bolted on the front is a very large engine.
Now I don't know about you guys, but it's not so hard for me to visuallise a bullet entering the fuse from the rear, punctureing the skin, and running forward till it hits the first really solid object. IE the engine.
Yes it has a cockpit, wing spar attachments, control/fuel/hydraulic lines. But for the most part that fuse is EMPTY space!
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Did any Tiffie or Yak driver noticed , that about 5 bullets from .50 cal from dist. over 700 yards into your TAIL will take out your ENGINE,RADIATOR ?
From what I've seen, this is the case in most planes. In my 51 the first thing to go when shot from my 6oc is usually the radiator or engine 75 to 80% of the time from any distance. And when I shoot someone from 6oc I usually smoke them as opposed to killin them with the exception of the 38 which usually loses his tail.
I don't think it's some sort of conspiracy. Just a sometimes frustrating flaw in the damage model that hasn't been found yet.
Bane
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Where's the radiator in the P-51? The rear fuselage. A 109's radiator? Under the wing. The Spitfire's? Under the wing. What about the Yak? Isn't that in the rear fuselage too? Lots of planes would seem to be very vulnerable to a rear shot. Does anyone know where all of the oil coolers are located for these planes? This might also be an issue.
Bottom line is, the rear aspect radiator shots are not that unlikely to with those planes. Now, granted, it's a little strange with the 190, but isn't the oil tank mounted in the fuselage? If so, is it protected from rear aspect shots as well as the annular oil cooler in the cowl is from frontal shots? If not, then a rear aspect shot wouldn't really protect it from a .50 cal. At a 10 gallon capacity it wouldn't empty too fast unless the pressure wave of the shot cracked or split the tank, which i'd imagine is possible depending on the welds and thickness of the metal. Anyone have any details on the oil tank for the 190?
CJ
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The 190D9 engine is magnetic. It attracts metal cased bullets. It can get knocked out from 6 shots even, with no other damage to the plane.?
I find it amazing how often I lose my engine to a few pings.
I find even more amazing I just said this.
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Mr.Fish Smells like my Cats Ass. My Fish smells like my girlfriend.- Harry Dardo (Moline, Iowa Bowling Champion, Owner, Harry's Stump Removal Service)
[ 08-26-2001: Message edited by: Creamo ]
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Creamo, if you are being serious (which I sort of doubt)- I haven't seen it. I seem to lose my Radiator a lot in the D9, but only the A5 and A8 seem to have the magnetically charged engines (at least it sure seems that way ;)).
The P51 seems to get its radiator hit pretty often to, but I've read that that was the case in real life as well, which is why it wasn't such a hot ground attack plane. Maybe the same thing for the 190d9?
Oh, and Hazed- The P38 DOES seem to be very very weak structurally. I can take them out fairly easily with 5-6 pings from the TWO MG's that are mounted on the nose of the 190d9 and the 109G10. Imagine how fast 6 .50s would knock the tail off...
[ 08-26-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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I rarely point out flaws in AH, too much good stuff, but I spend 90% of my flights in a Dora. That result is fact. MAke of it what you will, just seems odd.
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I agree with Creamo. OMG Did I just say that????? :D
The 190D9 engine easily dies from hits at 6OC even from 500-800 yards long range shots.
This is a bug.
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see when we stop accusing each other of having an alterior motive eg Luft waffe worship :) we do get along :)
i agree so far with all statements.
one other id like to add is the zero seems to take a fair bit of damage but im not sure if the zero we have is the one with added armour.from what i read the zeros had almost no armour and no self sealing tanks so they burned and exploded a lot.Is ours(AHs) like the real thing?
the NIK however was apparently quite well armoured and had the first self sealing fuel tanks the japs used i believe, so after reading a bit more about the NIK i think maybe its as tough as it should be.It certainly seems to take a lot of hits when i get them.
P.S. try this out if you can as im TOTALLY not sure but after testing the P51b i found this.......
if i hit someone at 300 yards wth a large burst sometimes there was no damage whatsoever however when i was spraying in the hope of turning a fast egressing enemy from his 6 i sometimes hit at 700-900 and a single sprite hit took wings off and killed engines.
i will test same on the 190a8s Mgs also..
could we go test in training or something to help give HTC some hard data and films?
[ 08-26-2001: Message edited by: hazed- ]
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One other thing about the real 190A planes. they were fuel injected and any hit to a cylinder or fuel line or pump or whatever would cause fuel under relatively high pressuer to spray all over the hot engine. Also... The armor on the cowl protected (to a small extent) the badly disigned circular oil cooler but acted as a "funnel" for bullets from the rear! So maybe.. HT is doing it right.
Also, to fifties... The P38 does indeed have a glass tail. The nik is aromored as were later zekes but in no way should they be as tough as say an F6 or Hog and not in the ballpark with a P47. 109's were very compact and should be very vulnerable to fifties.
I don't think enough things are modeled in the damage model yet. The smaller planes are pretty compact and should be very vulnerable to API type bullets. Pretty hard to miss something vital.
lazs
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You mean to tell me none of you all have ever heard of the “good-guy-bullet”. Hmmm, you see the good-guy-bullet is always true, can turn corners, and has a higher degree of damage. All allied planes are loaded with good-guy-bullets as a standard practice.
All Axis planes are loaded with, you guessed it, “bad-guy-bullets”. Bad-guy-bullets do not fire true, do not turn corners, and will only inflict a great deal of damage when nearly sitting in the cockpit of the good-guy aircraft.
Good luck. I have it on high authority though that the good-guy/bad-guy bullet load out is not going to change any time soon. :D
Zippatuh
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BMW801s continue running with several cylinders completly shot off, they also run well enough when on fire . At least the ones JG26 planes Ive read about do.
Maybe the engine isnt an USA redmeat eating R2800 in toughness, but its no gentle fragile thing that many guys here want see it as.
The current one ping engine death on the 190A/D and P38 are clearly bugs. HTC has been informed of this and said they were to take action and check over all the planes in release 108. Thats good enough for me!
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"Did any Tiffie or Yak driver noticed , that about 5 bullets from .50 cal from dist. over 700 yards into your TAIL will take out your ENGINE,RADIATOR ? "
Yak? No. Tiffie? Yes. But from my many months in the Yak I have found if the enemy gets hits on me the Yak can absorb a good amount of damage.
Then again if an enemy is 700 in my rear view he's probably 300-400 in actuality (due to net lag) and any shots he lands is gonna hurt.
Truth is, if they're that close on your tail then one ping shots or a massive concentration isn't going matter much as the ending is going to be the same.
That being said, IMO, the P-38, 190's and the Tiffie do have some pretty weak damage areas that I hope get some review.
Westy
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Heh the 1 ping engine dead stuff is really annoying :)
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Its much easy to kill Yak 9U or Tiffie by .50 cal then by Cannons ! this is fact.
:rolleyes:
Tell Us PYRO what do you think about it. Thanks
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Originally posted by EagleC:
Its much easy to kill Yak 9U or Tiffie by .50 cal then by Cannons ! this is fact.
Interesting.. myth more like.
It's easier to kill anything with cannons over .50s.
Of course your relative experience versus mine is much greater, so I will go by what you say EagleC............... <end sarcasm>
They only come out when I go away for a few days.
-SW
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grun... I agree. The wussy little 14 cyl BMW engine should not quit running with one cyl shot off (they had multichambered fuel pumps) .... I didn't say it should but it should catch fire. They will run for a while on fire but I wouldn't want to be in one at the time.
cannon planes kill everything better in AH than fifty equipped planes in my experiance and by a large margin. It is however easier to get hits (how shocking) with 6 or 8 fifties than 2 or 4 cannon.
If you look at ballistic tables you will see the difference between "good guy" bullets and "bad guy" (better known as.... "the losers") bullets is quite large and unfavorable to the "bad guys" so long as the "bad guys are germany and not the japs soooo.... for those of us who can read, It is indeed good news that this will not change in AH anytime soon.
lazs
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well reason for .50 are most "deadly" that Cannons is that 2-3 pings from CAN will take out some part of your plane but not engine. .50 Cal will take out engine mostly.... i mostly go down when some spraying slow pony hit me from back about 700-800 yards, when im faster and going away from him.
:rolleyes:
Orel
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700 yds on your FE means he was actually anywhere from 300-500 yds behind you...reasonable if you ask me.
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I have hit other planes (trying to get them off a buddy or trying to make them turn) at up to 1,000 yards with 6 fifties. I hit them pretty easily from 600 if they are not moving at all. I have yet to do any damage tho at anything past 700 or so that I can recall. fifties should still have plenty of energy to take out an engine (especially a water cooled one) or radiator at 1,000 yards but in AH this is only modeled on the buff guns.
lazs
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oh...its a conspiracy...we americans is evil!
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Lazer ???
So you think, that kill engine,radiator from 6 OC is quite OK ? :D
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Fariz,
HT stated long time ago that you should hear all the pings :>
though, at 700 yds.. theres so much dispersion that you have plenty of time to hear 10 hits as multiple pings.
(not to talk about chance of always hitting the engine...)
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
Rosey the Riviter could make planes better than Igor, the German Slave could.
When you have an 8AM 4 hour Physics class and a 4 hour Modeling and Animation Class right afterwards. A quote like that really makes my day!!. Thanks Hangtime
[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Nefarious ]
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I have some plans for these planes, and some cutaway views. I have cutaways for every one of the planes in this game, except the Japanese designs.
The Me-109 design has exposed water coolers in under-wing fairings (we knew that), the oil tank is in front of the cockpit in a position that would be behind the windscreen from the pilot's perspective, The radio is aft of the cockpit, about mid-way back to the tail. The pilot sit on top of the fuel tank, although he has personal seat armor of 7mm thickness, and 8mm thickness armor sealing him off from the upper rear area with a piece attached to the canopy hatch. Behind the fuel tank is the air bottles (oxygen), so at high alt the first few shots should make him diving for air (and radio-less), the next few send him burning to earth. A canopy shot would most likely hit the oil tank, too, but also the nose guns would be effected as the magazine is in the same area. The pilot is relatively safe from a rear shot, though, and would most likely be wounded in deflection engagements (if then), but a sustained burst would get him even from the rear.
The Spitfire has nearly the same arrangement with the radio and oxygen tanks aft of the cockpit, but the fuel tanks are forward of the dash (main tank above the centerline, and the auxiliary below. The oil tank is below the engine in the chin, while the radiator is under the wing. The Spitfire should suffer from the same problems as the Mustang in ground attack.
The Focke-Wulfe 190 is heavily armored aft of the cockpit. The pilot, though, will get burned if the tank beneath his seat is punctured and lights, and another tank is under his feet. The master compass is in the rear fuselage, which I find interesting. The oil cooler and tank sits right behind the cowling fan (behind the prop), but that is protected somewhat by a 5mm thick armor nosering piece. The radio is aft of the cockpit armor which consists of 7mm personal seat armor and 14mm former/bulkhead armor. I very seriously doubt that any FW pilot was afraid to HO anything (GV's included).
The P51 Mustang plumbs the oil and radiator coolant to aft and beneath the cockpit. The radio and oxygen bottles are kept there too. Fuel is stored in tanks within the wing, and beneath the radio deck. The oil tank is forward of the cockpit, so you can see the similarities with the 109 (they even look alike in silhouette.
The P-38 is such a complicated piece of machinery that it surely would not be able to sustain much damage. The engine nacelles are stuffed with vital equipment. The armor is confined to areas aft of the tank areas in the wing and aft of the pilots' seat. The engnie coolant radiators are half-way down the booms to the tail. Between the cockpit and booms are the main and auxiliary fuel tanks. The engine nacelles are surrounded by vital plumbing to supercharger, aft radiator, oil intercooler, and fuel tanks. The radio and batteries are stored above the center sections fuel surge tank and aft of the pilot's seat armor. Like the P-51 the armor is 1/2" thick. The oxygen bottles are stored forward and to the side of the cockpit. The tail section is a shear-webbed d-tube construction with light-stringer reinforcement and five spars! The tail should take more damage and survive then we have seen.
Well, that's enough for now. It seems to me that HTC has done a very nice job to date. There are certain things that bother me, such as the way the tail on the pony tends to get knocked off so easily, but I have alway assumed it was sound related and I wasn't hearing all of the rounds striking my ride.
Go figure!
:cool:
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i think the damage mdoel definitely needs work
there is too much de tailing/de winging
taking off a wing should require ammo box detonation. 5 50 cal bullets should not remove a wing/tail, most would simly make holes
there should be control surface degredation rather than control surface there/now its not type stuff
only time a control surface should become totally ineffective is if the cables were cut or the hydraulics hit in the p38... or mabye if a control surface got hit with a mk108 that would do it.
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Ask yourself how many shots get taken on a pure 6 co-alt straight and level shot? Sweet f**k all is the answer. There is always so amount of deflection involved.
Then ask your self, where do .50's fire from? Even if a con was DEAD 6 in the X and Y (assuming Z is roll) axis the rounds come from the wings of the shooter to converge along the Z axis. Which means they do not come from a dead 6 position. IE they cross the Z axis at a point.
Then ask your self, from a front/rear profile what has the most surface area. IE look at an aircraft from the rear. The engine block does. In most cases you'll find that at low angles from the rear the highest amount of surface area visible is that fat end, the front, where the engine is.
Its simple numbers. Spray from long distance at a slight offset (left right up down whatever):
dispersion + arc + high surface area of the engine block = most likely place to get hit.
The reason .50's are more likely to pull this voodoo magic is simply because of the flatter and less dispersed trajectory they have vs cannon.
As for structural failures (wing shred, tail shred). Look at the size of those areas of stress, if the shooter gets his convergence right and several guns converge on the same structural point sh*ts gonna fly!
Yes the tiffie has the bad-radiator-mojo. But look at the size of the engine block. Its huge. Then look at the 190 engine block relative to the rest of the plane. Same thing.
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Good point Vulcan, I'd not thought of it that way. Eye-opening to say the least- maybe HTC DOES have it right after all.
I still get aggravated when my engine gets popped in my 190 though hehehe.
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Please people its turning into a slanging match again.......
keep it civil, lets do some tests? film them then give them to pyro.
form what ive tested it wont take long to show the rate of engine out hits..
i flew 3 test flights into acks in 190 and all 3 got single engine hit/engine konks out.
tried it with the p38 and got 2 tails off(admittedly 35mm hit on tail would destroy it but even so it does seem to hit tail a LOT) and other hit took right wing off/engine out.
seems to me its obviously a problem.
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so , let us summerize:
A shells hitting a aircraft are a problem
B bullets hitting a aircraft are a problem
C AA hitting a air craft are a problem
conclusion... i agree