Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Kermit de frog on November 03, 2006, 12:58:12 AM
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If you could talk to a WWII Fighter Pilot. What would you talk about?
If you could ask him just 1 question, what would you ask?
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What do you mean..."if?" ;) --->met a few of these gents (http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/)
I would talk about their experiences in combat situations, tactics, etc.
Many of them have flown several plane types and they often do not remember technical things or performance issues of the planes. Often us virtual guys are much more familiar with tech issues. It would be a treat to talk with some test pilot or mechanician some day :)
Choosing just one question would be hard... maybe just something in general to get them going... "Please tell me all abut it" :D
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I get to talk to one 2-3 times a month, He owns a local car lot in Sonoma California, and shops at my store regularly. I always thought of him as a grumpy old man (cause he pretty much is), but when I learned that he was a WWII pilot, I just had to take the opportunity to talk with him about it. When he realized I was genuinely interested in his stories, his face light up as he was talkin to me. Whenever he comes in I get him to talk about his experiences, I think he likes it as much as I do.
My first question was "What was your most memorable flight" He said he was flying over Germany in a p38 (he named the city but I dont recall it right now) and took hits from flak. The Flak blasted his controls and his compass. He was trying to RTB and was actually gowing the wrong way. He said he could tell he was going the wrong way cause the flak was gettin heavier & heavier. He managed to get turned around & limp his way home, said he had a heck of a time getting it landed.
Hes one of my favorite customers, still works every day & still driving. Next time I talk with him Ill take notes & share the details.
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Once I would have asked him about his experiences... But now I would avoid the subject...
I once asked my wife's grandfather about his experiences in WWII and he had some amazing stories, but in my enthusiasm for the legends I bought back memories that saddened him greatly, I know this because I can still remember his words, words that he said without malice they were a simple statement of the truth
" You've made me remember things I would rather have forgotten"
Make no mistake, Keith is a great man, He is a true blue Australian and a master builder who joined the forces underage and saw things in the pacific that no 16 year old should...
But I digress:
So now I would ask our theoretical pilot how he feels about people like us, the Sim Junkies...
How would an weary old pilot react to grown men (and women) pretending to be in WWII...
I remember being about 10 and seeing my first B-17 in a book, I always thought it was cool and once I found out how tough she was I fell in love with that plane and automatically I thought WWII was cool....
Yet I like most of us (excluding those who have served) have absolutely no Fing idea what it is like to put yourself in harms way day after day to see friends torn apart by bullets and cannon fire....
I still love the B-17 and have a keen interest in WWII but I know that I am just another Sim Junkie who's virtual death means nothing and serves no purpose
Often I find myself asking how would they feel about us....
To ALL Vets....
P.S.
On a lighter note I would have to ask them what they think of the flight model and such.......
Later all, sorry if I put a downer on this thread...
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My uncle, now 89 years old, flew in the CBI (China, Burma, India) Theater. Suppling the flying tigers in (don't quote me on the year) 41'. He flew a B-25 without any defensive guns. He told me a story a little while back that when a Zero used to approach their plane, they used to stick broom sticks out the gun windows. (Just like some of the Doolittle Raiders did). By the way, he made 74 trips over the "Hump". He's still kickin and loves to talk about some of the stories when I see him.
Obie
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I've had a chance to talk to lots of vets over the years and collect their stories. Probably the proudest moment I've ever had outside of my family is this picture taken at the first reunion of 41 Squadron at RAF Coltishall in 1986. I'd researched the Spit XII for about 6 years to that point and tracked down all the pilots I could find, which lead to helping with the reunion and then getting to fly to England to take part.
I was the only non WW2 Spit pilot in the group photo that was taken in front of the B of B flight Spit II that was in 41 Squadron colors. The pilots asked that I be included. Talk about proud and humbled. They also got me in the cockpit of that Spit which wasn't normally allowed. Sadly many of these guys are now gone.
I'll never forget sitting with them in the Coltishall OC with a pint in my hand listening to them talk and how they seemed to step back in time as they told their stories. Being allowed to see that was an incredible privilage. Even more humbling was when they'd ask me if they had the story right. I'd been living it daily through their letters and I was able to fill in the details they'd missed.
Again, outside of family this was probably the best thing I've ever experienced. Getting allowed into that circle and being considered part of them, if even for a couple days was really something. I still have my 41 Squadron tie, that only 41 Squadron members are allowed to have :)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1162541214_coltishall.jpg)
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Dan, what can I say... wow.
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Originally posted by Stang
Dan, what can I say... wow.
And you wonder why I'm a closet Spit dweeb :)
Just some stuff about the guys that are in the photo.
Tom Slack-Shot down and walked back through Gibralter. Went down in the Channel and rescued. Went down a third time when his fuel tank wouldn't switch over and ended up a POW.
-Peter Graham. Lost most of his hearing due to a flak hit right behind the cockpit. Later shot down by flak and ended up a POW.
-Ross Harding. Ended up an Air Vice Marshall. "Recco Ross". Shot down by friendly flak chasing a V-1.
-Terry Spencer. Shot down by flak in an XIV. Escaped with another Spit pilot. Stole a motorcycle and roded it to freedom over the Remagen bridge. Went back to his squadron. Shot down by flak again attacking shipping. Shell hit between the radiators and blew the Spit apart. Terry was at 0 feet but going so fast he was able to pull his chute and fell into 6 feet of water. In the Guiness book of World Records for lowest survived bail out.
-Joe Birbeck. Lied about his age and was flying Spits at 16. Shot down attacking sub pens in an XVI near the end of the war. Still ticked off about it when I talked to him.
-Herb Wagner. A Yank in the RAF. Shot down by Flak near Guernsey just before D-Day. got a real working over by the Gestapo. Later went to POW camp and they thought he was a plant because of his American accent. Ended up playing lots of Bridge with Peter Graham as his partner as they waited it out in Salag Luft I
-Stan May. Shot down in the fall of 43 but evaded with the help of the French Underground. He still wouldn't talk about it much in 86.
Peter Cowell. Shot down a 262 in a Spit XIV. One time in a Spit XII he was flying right on the water over the Channel and bounced off, shattering about 2 feet off each blade. Somehow staggered back at full power and barely moving.
And it goes on and on, but those are just some of the guys in the photo with me.
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Dan, Those stories are amazing! I collect WWII aviation art and enjoy reading the stories depicted by the artists. You, by far, have me beat. Your dedication to the amzing heritage these men have passed on to you must be a great honor. Hope you plan on writing a book about their stories.
<>
Obie
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We were privileged and surprised to find that this chap: http://www.nzfpm.co.nz/aces/peart.htm was not only interested in AH, but he wanted to witness a squad night. Gulp.
He loved it. I managed to click on a Spit XIV instead of the IX we were supposed to take so he got to find out what perk magnet meant. Mind you, we all flew "clever" for a change and performed a successful mission with only one loss to flak - about right he reckoned.
He made some interesting comments about both the flight model of AH (Spits from the VII on needed full rudder at take off power) and what he perceived to be the advantages and disadvantages of the various Spitfire marks he flew. He rated the VIII, claimed that no XVI ever made as much power as a comparable IX, and the XIV was brutal.
Of course he would rate the VIII because he survived solo combat with 30 vulching Oscars.
:O
He didn't whine about the Oscar pilots vulching either.
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My grandfather was Ju52 pilot. He told a few funny stories (of the day they had to bring a live cow to the front line) or how he sent his friend to the eye-check - hed never have been allowed to fly otherwise, he was blind as a duck :).
He talked about Stalingrad once. He said he was one of the last pilots that flew out there. I was too young at the time to understand what was behind the story... later i never dared ask him about it.... hell is too nice a word for what happened there.
Out of his whole flight, he was the only one that survived the war. He died a few weeks back, after long years of sickness.
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I had chance to ask question from Gunther Rall in 20.5.2006 when he was visiting aviation museum in Vantaa Finland. It was really cool to hear him talking after I had read his book. I was amazed that he was still in that good shape and was able to give aswers ~2 hours.
My question was what was the most feared enemy fighter he fought against. Due my bad spelling and large auditorium Mr.Rall heard/understand my question little different and answered what was the most feared airforce.
He answered RAF and reason was that their level in aircombat tactics was so good.
Here's photo from my archives of Mr.Rall
(http://jojoke.1g.fi/rall.jpg)
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You could only ask one question. What was it like, and I would direct that to any Spitfire Pilot (Grandfather was a spit pilot)
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I've gotten to know about a dozen P-38 pilots, and we've talked about everything from flying to fishing. We talked about friends and family, about traveling, about fun and heartbreak. Everything I had was lost a while back when computer problems struck. And some of those guys aren't around anymore.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
My grandfather was Ju52 pilot. He told a few funny stories (of the day they had to bring a live cow to the front line) or how he sent his friend to the eye-check - hed never have been allowed to fly otherwise, he was blind as a duck :).
He talked about Stalingrad once. He said he was one of the last pilots that flew out there. I was too young at the time to understand what was behind the story... later i never dared ask him about it.... hell is too nice a word for what happened there.
Out of his whole flight, he was the only one that survived the war. He died a few weeks back, after long years of sickness.
Schatzi, my sincerest condolences on your Grandfather's passing.
Re the question I would ask: I worked with a couple of WW2 vets for a couple of years (both ex-RAF). One was a navigator on Halifax bombers, the other was an "erk" on Spitfires (IX's, XIV's & XVI's) - both great guys. And I grew up on RCAF fighter stations in the 60's and early 70's so I was around a fair number of vets. So, the question I'd ask is "I'm headed to the bar, can I get you another drink?" - there's no better conversation starter :D.
Cheers,
asw
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Some of the best stories I've ever heard, have come from WWII Veterans, on both sides of the war. Keep on posted your stories of experiences with WWII Vets.
Sorry to hear about your recent loss Schatzi.
Some good questions have been stated in this thread.
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Better get Widewing in here. I'm sure he'd put the rest of us to shame with the amount of stories he's heard.
Come one Widewing. Share the wealth :)
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What a story Dan, Fantastic!
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My video with some Flying Tigers (http://www.furballunderground.com/Guest/Golfer/golfer_flyingtiger_interview.wmv)
Shorter gentleman is my neighbors father and by whom I was invited.
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Originally posted by Golfer
My video with some Flying Tigers (http://www.furballunderground.com/Guest/Golfer/golfer_flyingtiger_interview.wmv)
Shorter gentleman is my neighbors father and by whom I was invited.
it won't play for me Golfer... Oh, and BTW when did you leave last night during squad night you donkeystick? LOL
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Better get Widewing in here. I'm sure he'd put the rest of us to shame with the amount of stories he's heard.
Come one Widewing. Share the wealth :)
Yeah, I think Widewing knows everyone I know and then some. He may not have known Bill Capron and Bill Safarik. I think he may have known Ken Lloyd.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
I've had a chance to talk to lots of vets over the years and collect their stories. Probably the proudest moment I've ever had outside of my family is this picture taken at the first reunion of 41 Squadron at RAF Coltishall in 1986. I'd researched the Spit XII for about 6 years to that point and tracked down all the pilots I could find, which lead to helping with the reunion and then getting to fly to England to take part.
I was the only non WW2 Spit pilot in the group photo that was taken in front of the B of B flight Spit II that was in 41 Squadron colors. The pilots asked that I be included. Talk about proud and humbled. They also got me in the cockpit of that Spit which wasn't normally allowed. Sadly many of these guys are now gone.
I'll never forget sitting with them in the Coltishall OC with a pint in my hand listening to them talk and how they seemed to step back in time as they told their stories. Being allowed to see that was an incredible privilage. Even more humbling was when they'd ask me if they had the story right. I'd been living it daily through their letters and I was able to fill in the details they'd missed.
Again, outside of family this was probably the best thing I've ever experienced. Getting allowed into that circle and being considered part of them, if even for a couple days was really something. I still have my 41 Squadron tie, that only 41 Squadron members are allowed to have :)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1162541214_coltishall.jpg)
Which one is you ? ... j/k ... you stick out like a sore thumb amongst those gents and pilots of yester-year.
Musta been un-real to spend that amount of quality time with those guys and sharin' pints with them.
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Originally posted by Mr No Name
it won't play for me Golfer...
right click, Save As
Try Again (http://www.furballunderground.com/Guest/Golfer/golfer_flyingtiger_interview.wmv)
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Not a fighter pilot story, but.........I was in Burger King a couple of months ago and saw a big Lincoln outside with an 8th Airforce tag on it. I looked around and saw an older gentleman sitting nearby. I asked if it was his car and he said yes, then I asked about the tag. He said he flew B-17s in Europe during WW2. "The old gals always brought me home"
I didn't ask him any more questions. I extended my hand, gave him a firm handshake and said even though that was way before my time, I would like to thank you for your service to this country and for protecting my freedom.
The smile that appeared on his face was worth far more than any information I could have learned about his aircraft.
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One of the many reasons I wish my Grandfather had lived longer (he passed away of a heart attack when I was still a toddler, I barely remember him) was that he was a groundcrewman with the 4th Fighter Group during the war. Looking into his service and reading his old (original printings) of Mr. Tettleys Tenants and 1,000 Destroyed were what really got me interested in WWII aviation. I'd always thought those old planes were cool, but learning about my connection to them got me hooked.
He originally enlisted in 1942, straight out of High School (turned down a college basketball scolarship according to my relatives who remember that far back) and into the USAAF. Wanted to be a gunner on a B-17, but they took one look at him (at 6'5" and 170 pounds!) and told him he was too tall to fly and sent him to supply. Ended up at Debden until 1946, where he met my grandmother (who grew up in Cambridge) and convinced her that the weather was much nicer in New York and she should come home with him. :)
My great uncle (grandmothers younger brother, retired Sgt. Maj. in the British Army) remembers when he first met him in about 1943- says he was the tallest and skinniest man he had ever met, and that he already had a full head of grey hair. Also said he was one of the nicest people he ever knew in his life, and that he still mourns him to this day.
My grandmother doesn't talk about the war or my grandfather much (basically only when shes been drinking, and then she gets very depressed), but I've managed to worm out of her that she and her family were very nearly killed twice during the Battle of Britain (an incendiary landed in her backyard in July, missing the house by feet, and the family drove through a Stuka attack on the coast in August. She still can't stand the sound of Stuka sirens when they're on TV.), that she to this day hates Germans (she cried when the Berlin Wall came down, but not for the good reasons), and a few times she's talked about the pilots she remembers from the war. She met several of the pilots of the 4th over the years dating my grandfather (and growing up in the nearest large town to the base) and she remembers Don Blakeslee as a "handsome, arrogant devil" (meant in a good way), Gentile as a "cocky young sod" and Kid Hofer as "as reckless as they came". But she still says none of them could compare to the RAF fighter pilots, of course. But whenever she gets angry or upset at something going on in America, she remembers all the young men who went to England to help them, and she feels better about being here. Sounds sappy, but shes said it many times over the years.
To be honest, I don't know what I'd ask a pilot if I had the chance to sit down and talk to one. Theres so much that they went through that needs to be remembered that I wouldn't know where to start.
But I know I'd love to talk to, in no particular order- a P-38 ace, a 109 ace, and/or a surviving pilot from the 4th. Failing that, I'd take anything I could get and be forever grateful for the opportunity.
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does a bomber pilot count?
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Originally posted by Treize69
But whenever she gets angry or upset at something going on in America, she remembers all the young men who went to England to help them, and she feels better about being here. Sounds sappy, but shes said it many times over the years.
Trieze, that's really a very nice story. It says a lot about your love for your parents - brings a tear to the oldman's eye, it does.
- oldman
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Absolute wonderful thread!!!!
This is what "our" forums should be chock full of, thanks a million for sharing these photo's, stories, friendships and honoring the ones that made the ultimate sacrifice for thier countries.
<>
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My next door neighbor was Vern Ford.He flew for the Brits before the USA got into war.Later he flew in North Africa.As we shared a few drinks,he was a master story teller,and he was friends with many of the big name aviators we came to know.Later he was test pilot,and flew in the cross country air races.I feel fortunate to have had the chance to share the stories he had to tell.
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Originally posted by Golfer
right click, Save As
Try Again (http://www.furballunderground.com/Guest/Golfer/golfer_flyingtiger_interview.wmv)
Golfer,
I did that. Windows media player opens the file but it will not play sir. PS Thanks for helping me with that 262 problem last night.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
Better get Widewing in here. I'm sure he'd put the rest of us to shame with the amount of stories he's heard.
Come one Widewing. Share the wealth :)
I have a lot of interviews saved on tape, with some burned as audio CDs. I have around 5 hours of interviews with Robert Johnson and about 90 minutes with Gabreski. In addition, I have interviews with Erik Shilling, Art Heiden as well as several other P-38 pilots from the ETO. Plus, I have literally hundreds of e-mails that can be compiled.
Back in 2001, I posted the transcribed text of one phone conversation with Johnson. I have partially transcribed another. Here's the one I posted 5 years ago...
Bob Johnson Interview, Part 1:
A few months before Robert Johnson died (December 27th, 1998), I conducted nearly five hours of telephone interviews with Bob over the course of three weeks. I managed to record all but the first hour. During our conversations, we discussed the tactics he employed while battling the Luftwaffe. The following are some excerpts from one of our discussions.
CCJ: I have read an article about you and the tactics you used, that described you as one of the first fighter pilots to truly fight in the vertical plane.
RSJ: I don't know about that, there were others who fought that way.
CCJ: But not in the Thunderbolt....
RSJ: No, I guess not, at least when we first went operational.
CCJ: Can you describe how you used vertical maneuvering to your advantage, especially in the heavy-weight Jug?
RSJ: I think that you need to understand that everyone thought that the P-47 was a deathtrap. RAF pilots told us that we wouldn't have a chance against single-engine fighters. Those of us who had been flying the P-47 for a while knew otherwise, but there was nothing we could say that would convince the British, or the guys in the 4th.
CCJ: Guys of the 4th? You mean the 4th Fighter Group?
RSJ: Yeah. They were not at all happy trading in their Spitfires for the Thunderbolt.
CCJ: Didn't the 56th surrender their P-47s to the 4th after you arrived?
RSJ: Yes, we were told that we would be getting new planes.
CCJ: I'll bet that struck a nerve in the 56th.
RSJ: It sure did. We already had hundreds of hours in P-47Bs and Cs. No other group of pilots in the ETO had anywhere near our experience in the Thunderbolt. So naturally, we were not happy to hand them over to another Group. In retrospect, it was obviously a good idea. We realized as soon as we got into combat that there was no substitute for actual combat missions under your belt. Anyway, we trained the 4th on the Thunderbolt and then waited for what seemed like forever, to get our new planes.
CCJ: To get back to tactics, how did your tactics evolve?
RSJ: My tactics were rooted in what I had learned flying the P-47 in the States. We could always find some Navy Corsairs over Long Island Sound. We would bounce them, or they would try to bounce us. Usually, we had the advantage in height so the Corsairs were a lot busier than us.
CCJ: I take it that you seldom let an opportunity to jump them go waste?
RSJ: No, we usually went straight for them.
CCJ: Didn't they see you rolling in?
RSJ: Sometimes. We tried to use the sun to hide in. If they didn't spot us, we would lay it on them good. Their first hint that we were there was when we tore through them at high speed and zoomed back up above them.
CCJ: How did they react?
RSJ: They would usually scatter every which way. We would come back down on them again, but they would be alert now and break into us.
CCJ: I guess that is the point where it would break down into a big brawl?
RSJ: It did at first. The Corsair was just a fast as the Thunderbolt was around 20,000 ft., and it was very maneuverable. As we mixed it up and lost altitude, the Corsair became a real handful to outfly with our P-47Bs. I discovered that the Corsair pilots did not like fighting up hill. What I mean is, they would not or could not follow you if you pulled the nose up into a steep climb. I realized that the Corsair couldn't climb any better than the P-47, and would tend to spin out of a vertical stall. I also found that that any P-47, even the P-47B, could out-dive the Corsair. So that gave me two important advantages that I would use every chance I got.
CCJ: So these mock dogfights helped you learn how to exploit the inherent strengths of the Thunderbolt.
RSJ: Yes, very much so.
CCJ: What about facing the Fw 190 and Messerschmitts?
RSJ: The Focke Wulf reminded me of the Corsair. It was much smaller of course, but they both had similar maneuverability. It wasn't quite as fast, but turned well. It was unusual to find Focke Wulfs above us. Generally, we held the advantage in height. The Me 109 was another story. They could often be seen up above 35,000 feet.
CCJ: What was the biggest mistake a German pilot could make?
RSJ: Trying to escape in a dive or split-S.
CCJ: Why?
RSJ: Because they were not going to out-run the Thunderbolt in a dive.
CCJ: You could catch them without a problem.
RSJ: I could catch them in nothing flat.
CCJ: Really?
RSJ: Absolutely. One thing about the 190, if the pilot continued his dive below 7 or 8 thousand feet, he could not pull out before he hit the ground. I guess they had compressibility problems or the elevators got too stiff. What ever the problem was, I watched several of them pancake in before they could level off.
CCJ: What about the Thunderbolt?
RSJ: It did not have that problem down that low. Up high, above 25,000 feet, yes, I could get into compressibility and the elevators locked up like they were in concrete. But once you got down to thicker air, you regained control.
CCJ: So, what would you do if suddenly discovered a German fighter on your tail?
RSJ: you mean in close?
CCJ: Yes.
RSJ: That depended a lot on how fast the German was going. If he was moving much faster, I'd simply side-step him by rolling. The German would whiz right on by and I would firewall the throttle and take off after him. If he was a smart German, he would climb straight ahead. If he was a dumb German, he would try to turn. If he turns, his higher speed will make for a wide turn, and I will cut across and be all over him. If he dives, I can follow and eventually catch up. Now, if the German's speed was close to mine, then I had another emergency maneuver that always worked for me.
CCJ: And, that was?
RSJ: I would pull the nose straight up into a vertical rolling spiral, usually to the left. You would stall out, but so would the guy behind you. That killed his advantage.
CCJ: So, what you are describing sound like a rolling hammerhead stall, right?
RSJ: That's a pretty good description.
CCJ: So what happens next?
RSJ: Well, the enemy would stall first because the Jug's mass allowed to retain its, er...
CCJ: Energy?
RSJ: Yes, energy. The P-47's mass allowed it to retain its energy better and it stalled a few seconds after the enemy plane. The German would snap over and head down. Except, now I was right behind him and there was no getting away.
CCJ: Wouldn't he still be directly behind you?
RSJ: No. Pulling up so suddenly always caught them by surprise. The second or two that it took for them to react took care of that.
CCJ: Why did you roll?
RSJ: Because that killed my speed faster than the enemy if he didn't, which gained me the advantage of being to his rear as he zoomed up. If he rolled too, that also worked to my advantage because it killed his speed faster than mine.
CCJ: So, you would get the advantage no matter what, if the German also pulled up into a vertical climb. What if he didn't follow?
RSJ: Then he would just fly by. If he still wanted to fight, he could extend out and turn around, but I would be waiting for him.
If he turned either left or right, I would be all over him in a few seconds.
CCJ: The smart Germans just kept on going when you pulled up.
RSJ: I never ran across one smart enough to keep going. They all tried to follow.
CCJ: How many got away after falling for your trap?
RSJ: I really can't say for sure. Some got away because he had friends to cover his tail. Besides, that maneuver was not so much to get him, but to prevent him from getting you. In that respect, it always worked.
My regards,
Widewing
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Bob Johnson interview, Part 2:
CCJ: Much has been written about the incredible roll rate of the Fw 190. Was it as good as they say?
RSJ: The 190 rolled very fast. But, so did the Thunderbolt.
CCJ: But not as quickly as the Focke Wulf.
RSJ: I would say just as fast. I never had a 190 out-roll my Jug. Never.
CCJ: What about a situation where you end up in rolling scissors with a Focke Wulf? Do you follow him by reversing the turn too?
RSJ: No. Whenever you get into a series of reverses, the airplane tends to mush-out a bit when you reverse your turn. The Jug tended to mush a bit more than the 190. The way to avoid this was roll into the reverse.
CCJ: I'm not sure I follow you.
RSJ: Picture this in you mind. The 190 rolls into a hard left. You follow, firing as he crosses your guns. Suddenly, he reverses his turn, hard right. Rather than reverse, you continue rolling left until you are in a right bank, just like the 190. Now, pull hard. No mushing. If he reverses again, you roll left and fire as he crosses your guns. If he doesn't reverse, I pull the nose high and roll out behind him.
CCJ: A high yo-yo?
RSJ: Of a sorts, yes. Continuing the roll simply eliminated the mushing caused by reversing a turn and I would get a clear shot every time the enemy reversed.
CCJ: What you define as the most important things a fighter must know to be successful, relating to air combat maneuvering?
RSJ: It's pretty simple, really. Know the absolute limits of your plane's capabilities. Know its strengths and weaknesses. Know the strengths and weaknesses of you enemy's fighters. Never fight the way your enemy fights best. Always fight the way you fight best. Never be predictable.
CCJ: I remember reading where you thought that your P-47 was the fastest fighter in the ETO.
RSJ: I still believe that it was.
CCJ: Really?
RSJ: Sure. My second Jug, a D-5, was the best P-47 that ever flew, and I flew them all, including the P-47M (Stateside) which the 56th got near the end of the war.
CCJ: What made this one Thunderbolt so fast?
RSJ: Several things. My crew sanded every joint smooth, and waxed it to a high gloss. Factory technical reps showed my crew chief, Pappy Gould, how to adjust the wastegates to keep the boost pressure higher than normal. My D-5, which I named Lucky, had water injection. I never used the water injection in combat. I didn't need it. From time to time I'd switch it on, push the throttle up to 72" of manifold pressure and the head rest would smack me from behind. I would let her run for a few minutes just for the fun of it.
CCJ: 72 inches!? Did you ever take note of your airspeed during one of those runs?
RSJ: Of course.
CCJ: And....... how fast did it go?
RSJ: I've seen just over 300 at altitude.
CCJ: 300 indicated?
RSJ: Yes.
CCJ: What was your altitude?
RSJ: I guess it was right around 30,000 feet.
CCJ: Geez, that’s well over 450 mph!
RSJ: Oh, I figure closer to 470 (Edit: Actually closer to 480 mph TAS at 30k, 468 TAS at 28k)
CCJ: Maybe you did have the fastest fighter in the ETO after all.
RSJ: Like I said, Lucky was the fastest.
CCJ: What ever happened to Lucky?
RSJ: She was lost in a mid-air collision over the North Sea. I don't recall the pilot's name who was flying her on that ramrod. I was very upset. Lucky got at least 24 enemy aircraft and was the best Jug I ever flew. She was trouble free and I never had a single abort while flying her.
CCJ: Bob, one final item before I let you go tonight.
RSJ: Sure.
CCJ: Is it true that you flew two 25 hour tour extensions after your 25th victory, and that you never were involved in a single combat during that time?
RSJ: Basically, yes. I took a 25-hour extension with the idea that as soon as I got 2 more enemy aircraft, I would stop there and go home. After the 25 hours were up and I hadn't had a chance to even fire at an enemy airplane, I took another 25 hour extension under the same understanding. Finally, on the last mission of that tour, I got two more and they sent me home.
CCJ: Why do you think that German fighters became so hard to come by at that time. When was that, in April and May of 1944?
RSJ: I can't say for sure, but we now know that the long range of the P-38 and P-51 caused the Luftwaffe to pull back many of their fighter squadrons deep into Germany. This makes sense when you think that we could put up over 600 P-47s for a ramrod. If they pull back beyond the range of the Jugs, we won't see much of them. Another thing was simple bad luck. When the Germans did come up to fight, they attacked the bombers well away from our assigned area. So, it really was a combination of factors.
CCJ: So, what was the date of your last two victories?
RSJ: May 8th, 1944.
CCJ: Well, Bob, I'll let you go now. Thanks for your time. This will make for a terrific article.
RSJ: It was my pleasure.
CCJ: Are you up for another discussion in a week or two?
RSJ: If you don't mind my long stories, sure. You can call almost anytime.
CCJ: Believe me, it's an honor for me. By the way, Art Heiden, you remember me talking about Art, Art wants to talk to you about Jack. Do you mind if I pass your number to him?
RSJ: Please do.
CCJ: Well, thanks again and have a good evening.
RSJ: You to.
My regards,
Widewing
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Amazing Widewing. You are definitely fortunate to have had those experiences.
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WideWing that was truly amazing...
Can you post up some more?
I love reading those interviews...
BTW what does mushing mean?
He said somthing about his jug mushing when he tried to reverse..
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mushing? maybe when the plane vibrates do to stall? But those were some great stories. To bad I haven't gotten the chance to personally meet some ww2 pilots but I did have some come to my class and talk about there experiances.
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Originally posted by Platano
WideWing that was truly amazing...
Can you post up some more?
I love reading those interviews...
BTW what does mushing mean?
He said somthing about his jug mushing when he tried to reverse..
Mushing, within the context Johnson used, described how the aircraft responded to aft stick pressure. The plane would rotate in its pitch axis, but it would not immediately change direction, mushing rather than turning. Probably related to slipstream factors off of the prop.
My regards,
Widewing
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Holy crap Widewing, wow!
:eek:
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Widewing,
That is amazing. I would encourage you to make several copies of all that you have, and put some in a safety deposit box. I would also ask if you have considered donating copies to the United States Air Force Musem and/or the 8th Air Force Museum with the appropriate documentation as to who what where and when. With the loss of each veteran the material you have becomes priceless.
Cheers,
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dan, widewing, those were really great, huge
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Indeed
My opinion this thread should be stickied
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Thanks Widewing. You didn't dissapoint as I knew you wouldn't :)
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what makes you a great fighter pilot?
no strike that last question! I like the question my wife would ask: Would take me for a ride in your favorite combat plane?
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Now thats the kind of stuff I like to read.Great articles fellaz.
"A bandit at your six is better than no bandit at all"
Pipz
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Originally posted by Guppy35
I've had a chance to talk to lots of vets over the years and collect their stories. Probably the proudest moment I've ever had outside of my family is this picture taken at the first reunion of 41 Squadron at RAF Coltishall in 1986. I'd researched the Spit XII for about 6 years to that point and tracked down all the pilots I could find, which lead to helping with the reunion and then getting to fly to England to take part.
I was the only non WW2 Spit pilot in the group photo that was taken in front of the B of B flight Spit II that was in 41 Squadron colors. The pilots asked that I be included. Talk about proud and humbled. They also got me in the cockpit of that Spit which wasn't normally allowed. Sadly many of these guys are now gone.
I'll never forget sitting with them in the Coltishall OC with a pint in my hand listening to them talk and how they seemed to step back in time as they told their stories. Being allowed to see that was an incredible privilage. Even more humbling was when they'd ask me if they had the story right. I'd been living it daily through their letters and I was able to fill in the details they'd missed.
Again, outside of family this was probably the best thing I've ever experienced. Getting allowed into that circle and being considered part of them, if even for a couple days was really something. I still have my 41 Squadron tie, that only 41 Squadron members are allowed to have :)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1162541214_coltishall.jpg)
Dan your a type rated Spit pilot ??? :O :aok
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Widewing you should truly write a book, i'd buy it in a heartbeat, do you have enough material for one ?? :aok
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my grand father flew the c47 in the pacific theater, he told the that the japanese tried to knock his plane out of the sky with a 15 foot pole :O(because he was on the deck). then another time he said that his plane was full of gi's that were fully loaded, well some of them got sick and went to the back of the plane where this big bucket was, well he said that it was starting to unbalance the plane and so he gave his co- pilot a .45 and told him to go back there and keep em from the bucket. then one other time he was transporting 2-3 japanese prisoners, they were tied together and blind folded, he told his co pilot to shoot them if they moved.
he also said that when he was flying at night one of his buddy's plane went down and he never saw him again. also he mention about one of the bases he was stationed at in the pacific had a tree on it, it was a pretty big tree, well every time one of the planes would come in to land they would hear gunfire, as it turned out there was a japanese sniper nest in the tree that was on the base, they later burned it down.
these are some of the stories he has told me as of now.
LTARdeth
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Just to keep the thread alive. I spent much of the early 90s researching a B24 crew that went down over Vienna for the brother of the co-pilot who was killed. I found the three still living members of the crew (down to 1 at last count) and pieced together all the info I could get on the crew and their missions with the 454th BG. I flew their last mission in my head a million times and at one point was in the never never land between sleep and awake and found myself in the plane on that bomb run. Talk about spooky.
Anyway. This was what i came up with describing the death of a B24 and the fate of it's crew.
"The thunderous explosion in the cockpit of Terrible Terry, shattered the instrument panel and blew out the cockpit glass, while killing co-pilot Al Brody and pilot Richard Fry instantly. Severely wounded, Flight engineer Harry Kincaid, fell to the floor of the flight deck unconscious, lying face down with his head towards the instrument panel.
Behind him, the three other men on the flight deck were stunned by the blast. Bob Jensen, sitting with his back to Richard Fry, monitoring the instruments of his navigation panel, recalled the event:
"About four minutes down the bomb run, there was a tremendous explosion and I was pitched forward in my seat. I don’t believe I was knocked unconscious, but I was very definitely stunned, and I think probably it took 15 0r 20 seconds for me to recover consciousness. I looked around, looked to my left and to my utter shock, the right section of the nose forward of the copilot had been completely blown away. We had suffered a direct hit on the nose section from an 88 mm or perhaps a 105 mm antiaircraft shell. The instrument panel in front of the copilot was completely blown away. In fact there was nothing but blue sky, and I realized very quickly that there was no way in the world a plane with that amount of damage was ever going to fly. Looking at the various crewmembers, Al Brody, the copilot, still in his seat, was leaning completely over to the left. A quick look at him showed severe, massive wounds. It was obvious he had been killed instantly. I then looked at the pilot, Dick Fry. He was still sitting upright in his seat as though he hadn’t moved a muscle. I can’t recall whether his eyes were open or closed, or whether or not his hands were on the wheel. In any case, from the massive wounds he had sustained, it was obvious he had been killed immediately.
Harry Kincaid was lying on the floor of the flight deck, face down, with his head approximately between the pilot and copilot. In the position of his body, I could not determine what wounds he had sustained. So I rolled him over on his right side, and he had been severely wounded. It appeared to me that he was unconscious. For some reason—don’t ask me why—I had pulled Harry back probably about 2-3 feet. He still didn’t move, so I gave up those attempts.
Now I should backtrack just a little and tell you I did have my chest pack clipped on. In contrast, looking across the little aisle to my left, the Micky man (Al Bender) had left his chest pack lying on the floor, somewhere in the vicinity of his seat. Bear in mind the flight deck is very, very cramped with an additional two men shoehorned in. Bender was fumbling to reach his chest pack.
Bob Haws was still in the top turret. In any case, I could see his feet and legs moving, attempting to get out of his turret. I glanced at my little instrument panel in front of me. The Plexiglas covering over the instruments had been completely shattered. But at least I was not wounded, or so I thought at the time.
I dove headfirst across the floor of the flight deck, into the bomb bay in order to bail out. I knew there was no point in staying with the plane because it was obviously going straight down. So into the bomb bay I went, and much to my horror, the boot on my left foot caught on an arming wire in the bomb bay. The arming wire is just that—a wire—which extends from the nose of the bomb to a stanchion in the bomb bay. When the bombs are released, the wire stays attached to the stanchion, but it arms the bomb with the bomb is dropped. I attempted frantically to try and free my left foot and the boot got somewhat loose, just enough to enable me to bail out."
Bob Jensen appears to have been the quickest to react and was the first out of the stricken bomber. Elsewhere within the plane the other members of the crew also began to move.
It is not exactly clear what happened with Mickey man, Albert Bender. Bob Haws, coming down from his top turret, did not see Bender on the flight deck, which would seem to indicate he followed Bob Jensen out of the bomb bay. Jensen had seen him reaching for his chute pack. Haws remembers feeling someone crawl between his legs while he was still in the top turret. It is my belief this was Bender, and that he was the second man out of the bomber.
Bob Haws in the top turret felt the explosion rip through the cockpit. A cold blast of air hit his legs below the turret.
"Smoke and debris filled the flight deck. Immediately, I knew we were hit. I pulled the cord under my turret seat allowing the seat to hinge in an open position. My feet then touched the floor of the flight deck. I began disconnecting the lines to my oxygen, interphone and electrical system. My flak suit was stripped off, as was my helmet. The plane at this point went into a dive. The screaming engines became louder as we fell. The centrifugal force of the falling plane threw me into the corner of the flight deck. I was unable to move. I prayed that I might be spared. Many faces of my loved ones flashed before my eyes, then the plane came out of the spin and leveled off on its own allowing the centrifugal force to lesson. I was able to move once again. I glanced forward momentarily and saw Richard Fry and Alvin Brody motionless in their seats, and Harry Kincaid, our engineer between them on his hands and knees, wounded about the face.
The whole instrument panel of the ship was blown away and a gaping hole forward of the pilot’s position caused a surge of air through the flight deck. I glanced at my parachute in the other corner of the flight deck, scrambled for it and in the same motion pulled myself toward the open bomb bay doors where the six five hundred pound bombs were still hanging in their rack. At this point the plane went into another dive. With all the strength that I could muster, I hung my feet out of the plane from a sitting position on the catwalk of the bomb bay. The slipstream pulled my sheepskin boots off. I jumped, the slipstream also aiding in pulling me from the plane. I still had my felt, heated boots on my feet."
Bob Haws fell free of the plane, the third man out of the stricken bomber.
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More from that last mission
"In the nose of the B24 Bob Slyder had been crouched over the bombsight, while Jon Sheperd had been in the nose turret when the flak shell exploded in the cockpit.
Bob Slyder "heard and felt an intense concussion just behind me. Something hit me very hard in my back, but did not penetrate the steel flak jacket I was wearing. Without even looking I knew the plane had been mortally hit and was going down. I turned and looked through a space above the navigator’s table where you could normally see the pilot’s feet on the rudder pedals. It was obvious there was extensive damage on the flight deck and I wondered if anyone up there was alive.
I lined up the doors on the nose turret and pulled Shep out. While I didn’t see any wounds, he seemed dazed and slow to react. I hooked up his oxygen mask to a nearby outlet and reached out to open the nose wheel doors. Just then the plane went into a spin and both Shep and I were forced against the side of the plane unable to move even a finger. All I could think of was riding to my death with an escape hatch just a few feet away.
After several minutes of spinning the plane leveled off, although it didn’t seem to be under pilot’s control. I grabbed my chest pack, which was hanging next to Shep’s (our regular backpacks had been turned in for re-packing as we were going on leave) and pointed to the nose wheel doors. He nodded in agreement, which I took to mean that he would be right behind me, and I opened the doors and jumped out. There was no doubt in my mind that the plane was going to crash, and the only reason there had been no instructions to bail out was that both pilots were either dead or seriously wounded."
Bob Slyder fell clear of Terrible Terry, the fourth man out of the plane. For reasons unknown Jon Shepard did not follow him out. Instead Shepard began to move back towards the bomb bay, crawling through the tunnel towards the cockpit and the bomb bay entrance.
In the rear of the plane the gunners were slow to react. Being behind the bomb bay, there as no immediate indication of the seriousness of the damage up front, and there was no word from the pilots to bail out. The gunners had no way of knowing that the pilots were dead.
As the plane continued to fall, tail gunner Russ Mars rolled back out of his turret towards the rear escape hatch. He quickly opened the hatch and prepared to bail out. Looking forward he could see Ed Stanton and Earle Kulhanek in the waist of the bomber with their chutes on. Stanton was moving towards the bomb bay, while Kulhanek was sitting on the floor of the plane trying to contact the pilots.
Further forward Mars could see Don Bucholtz struggling to crawl out of the radio compartment above the bomb bay. The steep angle of the falling plane made it a difficult uphill climb. As Stanton reached the bomb bay, Mars was hollering for Earl Kulhanek to bail out. Kulhanek was refusing to leave the bomber without permission from the pilots and continued to try and contact them. With the ground rushing closer, Mars had no choice but to bail out to save himself, leaving the plane barely one thousand feet above the ground. Mars felt his chute open and slammed into the ground possibly breaking, and at least seriously spraining his ankle. Mars was the fifth man to get out of the plane.
Ed Stanton reached the bomb bay about the same time Mars bailed out. Looking across he could see Jon Shepard at the forward entrance. With no time to spare, Stanton also bailed out his parachute barely having time to open before he hit the ground. Stanton was the sixth crewman to bail out.
What happened after this is not clear regarding the rest of the crew still alive in the plane. There is some evidence that Jon Shepard finally left the plane but at too low of an altitude for his chute to open. There is also some suggestion that his chute did open, but that he was too close to the crashing plane and was killed by the explosion when it hit the ground.
Don Bucholtz failed to make it to the bomb bay to bail out. It is probable that it was just too difficult for him to make the climb up from his position in the radio compartment, or that he fell into the radar spinner well in the spot normally occupied by the ball turret.
Earle Kulhanek clearly had a chance to survive, but lost his chance while trying to get permission to leave the plane from the pilots. Despite the efforts of Russ Mars to get him to bail out, Kulhanek refused to leave.
As the survivors of the crew floated to the ground in their parachutes towards captivity, Terrible Terry slammed into the ground and exploded on the southeast side of Vienna carrying the bodies of its two dead pilots and killing three others in the crash.
Overhead the 454th Bomb Group and the following Bomb Groups of the 15th Air Force continued on their way to the target, bombing the Floridsdorf Oil Refinary. Terrible Terry was the only bomber lost that day from the 454th, and the 15th Air Force."
An old AW buddy put it on his website. Photos of the guys and some of thier 24s at:
http://www.worldwar2pilots.com/b24intro.htm
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Met couple dozen of those... And I don't care about just fighter pilots. Any pilot, any bomber crewman, all mechanics, they all were essential.
Some questions I've asked...
http://www.virtualpilots.fi/hist/
But a single question? Nah. There is no single question. Maybe "what kind of conditions did you live in and what was the food like?"
I'd say that is very important and it leads easily to other subjects, like their mates, what they did, how the units operated etc.
I don't care much about of those "which was better plane" or "what ammo belts did you use", I'm more interested on the people and their lives.
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ive always wanted to know how they dealt with bowel movements at 30,000 feet en-route to target.
I can imagine the piss hose... but... what did they do if they had to take a dump?
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Originally posted by Tac
ive always wanted to know how they dealt with bowel movements at 30,000 feet en-route to target.
I can imagine the piss hose... but... what did they do if they had to take a dump?
What would you think?
There was tens of thousands of pants full of **** and piss created during long sorties.
On some planes you could take a piss, on some not. On some you just had to piss on the bombbay. Or on bombsight.
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I have. All I had to do was say, "uncle Bert, what was it like fighting the 109s of JG27 in a Hurricane or what was it like to wade into a schwarm of 190s in a MkVIII"?
The fellow in the pictures is my uncle, S/L Bert Houle. He flew off the ARk Royal in 41 and joined 213 squadron flying clapped out MkII C hurries. In this role, they were totally defensive and he was flying the day Marseille got 17 kills, 6 of which came from 213. Luck was on his side that day.
He was then posted to 145 squadron and eventually took command of 417s MkVIII spit squadron in Italy. He has 11 confirmed kills, bunch of probs and damaged. He scored the 1st kill over the Anzio invasion by knocking down a FW-190. He had tremedous respect for the 109 and 190 but had such confidence in his crewmen, plane and squadron that he felt they could take on anyone. Necessary IMHO for a fighter pilot. His proudest boast is that he never had a man killed in any spitfire formation he ever lead.
He is still alive but suffers from Alzheimers and can't remember much. He was close friends with Stockey Edwards and to this day, his wife is still in touch with Stockey. Luckily for me, being an aviation artist on the side, I have a nice painting of a 417 long wingtipped spit shooting down a FW signed by both of them.
Luckily for the world, the musuem in Trenton Ontario had the brains to do video interviews of many of the Canadian Aces. Here is the link where you can purchse them. S/L Houle's interview is 1hr44 minutes long. They are worth the price, believe me.
http://www.rcafmuseum.on.ca/
The 1st picture was taken in Italy 1944. Note the 20mm cannon hole in his rearview mirror. He still has that mirror today. Quite spooky to hold it in your hand and think about how close it sits to your head. The second was taken a couple years ago in Ottawa. The spit belongs to Michel Potter who is building a flyable, 50 warbird collection. He currently owns a spitXVI, 2 hurries, a swordfish, a p-51D, a harvard, a tiger moth and is constantly growing his collection.
Enjoy!
(http://www.hunt101.com/img/447663.jpg) (http://www.hunt101.com/?p=447663&c=500&z=1)
(http://www.hunt101.com/img/447664.jpg) (http://www.hunt101.com/?p=447664&c=500&z=1)