Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Flayed1 on November 03, 2006, 02:10:51 AM
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I was just fliping through this book I have and started reading about the N1K up to the point where it says 1098 N1K1-J's were delivered in early 1944 and later complemented by 415 of the N1K2-J.
Just wondering why you chose to put in the N1K2-J when so many more of the N1K1-J's were made?
N1K1-J's were mid wing with 2 20mm in the leading edge of the wing with 2 more 20's in under wing gondolas and 2 7.7mm guns in the forward fuselage...
I don't care really that it had 2 more guns I was just wondering why put the N1K that had far fewer #'s in the war in and not the main type?
This could also expand to the LA-7 3 gun model as only a few were made compaired to the 2 gun type...
Not a gripe or whine as I rarly fly either of them but just a question. Would it not seem right to put the more numerous one in the game than just the better preforming one?
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why some planes are in and why some planes are out can only be left as a guess IMHO. There are planes that notably deserve more in then others. In other WWII simulator games on the market the planes provided are diffently more better then here.
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Originally posted by Flayed1
Would it not seem right to put the more numerous one in the game than just the better preforming one?
My guess is that they didn't have detailed data for the earlier version.
- oldman
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The George was one of the earliest planes added to the game. I seem to remember when it was added, Pyro stated that they wanted to add a Japanese plane that would be competitive with the planeset at the time (Spit, Pony, 109G10). He also stated that every other online sim at the time had the Ki84 in it and none had the George. As far as the reason for having the 2 vs the 1, I would guess the performance was the issue at the time it was added and they may have had better information on it at the time as well. I seem to recall the the 1-J had some serious issues due to its being adapted from the seaplane version rather quickly (issues like the weak landing gear and some stability issues from the midwing were quite common in the earlier version from what I understand). It wasn't until the N1K2-J that the airframe became a truly effective fighter.
Who knows, its a fun plane to defend in.
Also, if you get a chance, pick up "Genda's Blade" by Henry Sakaida. Its about the 343 Kokutai. This was sort of the equivalent of the more well known JV 44 in the Luftwaffe. It had the highest number of aces and veterans in the IJN at the end of the war and they flew the N1K2-J. Its a fantastic book with a wealth of detail and research.
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Excellent post Math. Spot on.
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dont
touch
the niki.
:mad: :mad: :mad: :mad: :mad:
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TY for the replys. :)
And Ball I'm guessing you are trying to be sarcastic or something, and if you arn't no one said anything about changing it. :)
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Originally posted by Flayed1
And Ball I'm guessing you are trying to be sarcastic or something, and if you arn't no one said anything about changing it. :)
no.
i am sending out a warning.
the n1k is fine the way it is, dont even think about touching it. i cannot be held responsible for my actions if it is changed.
IM WATCHING YOU!!
:mad: :mad:
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Excellent observation Flayed
Correct me if i'm wrong , but I'm sure I remember reading a similar thread in which Kev367th said that we had (In the Seafire) the 3rd rarest aircraft in the planeset.
It was something to do with the engine that it had.
Just shows you that there's more than one discrepensy out there.
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Originally posted by Hawco
Excellent observation Flayed
Correct me if i'm wrong , but I'm sure I remember reading a similar thread in which Kev367th said that we had (In the Seafire) the 3rd rarest aircraft in the planeset.
It was something to do with the engine that it had.
Just shows you that there's more than one discrepensy out there.
Yup -
The Merlin 45/46 Seafire IIc (our one) was produced for about 3 months total around 110 aircraft.
Merlin 32 Seafire L IIc had 300+ produced and then all the Merlin 45/46 were refitted with the Merlin 32 also.
Merlin 55M Seafire L III had 1200+ produced.
Only rarer aircraft in the game I believe is the Ta-152, 60-70 produced of all models.
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Only rarer aircraft in the game I believe is the Ta-152, 60-70 produced of all models.
The Bf 110C4/B is rarer - Only 20 Bf 110C-4 were fitted with DB601N.
This total applies to both C-4 and C-4/B, even for the C-7 which was a "serialized" C-4/B. Only 7 out of 39 aircraft were equipped with DB601N.
Erprobungsgruppe 210, the fighter-bomber unit in 1940, flew several different variants of the Bf 110. The 'C-6', which 1. Staffel, ZG 1, brought with them upon redesignation to 1./Erpr. Gr. 210, had a 30 mm. MG 101 Kanone in place of the two 20 mm. Kanone. Stab and 2nd Staffel were equipped with Bf 110 D-0/Bs from the outset. As the BoB progressed, and replacement aircraft were issued to the unit, the 'D-0's started to be equipped with the uprated DB601N engine. However as late as 27 September 1940 there was evidence of the unit using a 'D' with a DB601A engine (Gruppenkommandeur Martin Lutz's S9+DH shot down at Tarrant Gunville on that date). In the later stages of the BoB, the unit were flying the new 'E' version, evidenced by it beginning to appear in the damage/loss lists. Also the unit recorded the loss of a Bf 110 C-7 in November. The 'C-7' was an earlier-version Bf 110, sent to a repair facility, outfitted with bomb racks, and re-designated as a 'C-7' variant. Hence you will find 'C-7's with W.Nr. that relate to earlier sub-variant types.
The bible on all of this is the Petrick/Mankau book:
'Bf110/Me210/Me410'..
You would have about 27 Bf 110C-4/Bs (includes C-4s and the 7 designated as C-7s) produced.
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Originally posted by handy169
why some planes are in and why some planes are out can only be left as a guess IMHO. There are planes that notably deserve more in then others. In other WWII simulator games on the market the planes provided are diffently more better then here.
M-8, no M-4...
B-26, no B-25...
Me-109K-4, no Bf-109E4/R3, R/5
I really do wonder some times if HTC just has a dartboard with a bunch of planes on it...
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b25 was designed for parafraging or bombing with chutes, which the gme cannot support, as much as i would kill to have the 25 in the game it wouldnt be as realistic
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Originally posted by evenhaim
b25 was designed for parafraging or bombing with chutes, which the gme cannot support, as much as i would kill to have the 25 in the game it wouldnt be as realistic
That was only one type of bombs the B-25 could carry. Plain old iron bombs were used from the beginning.
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Originally posted by evenhaim
b25 was designed for parafraging or bombing with chutes, which the gme cannot support, as much as i would kill to have the 25 in the game it wouldnt be as realistic
lol. Thats funny. No, it carried good old fashioned bombs for the most part. In fact (Although I have no data to support this) I would wager a good deal the B-25 carried more plain old fashioned bombs than it did parafraging bombs. I fail to see how its design is any different (As far as bombing loadout and process) from our current B-26.
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B-25H had a 75mm howitzer on the nose.:cool: VULCH! VULCH! VULCH!:noid
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Originally posted by evenhaim
b25 was designed for parafraging or bombing with chutes, which the gme cannot support, as much as i would kill to have the 25 in the game it wouldnt be as realistic
This is not correct. The B-25 was designed as a normal medium bomber. Parafrags were developed as a solution to a problem - namely how to do low level bombing without the bomber taking damage from the bombs.
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Just remeber not to call it a Nikki infront of Pyro.....
It gives him the chits
:)
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Originally posted by Bruno
The Bf 110C4/B is rarer - Only 20 Bf 110C-4 were fitted with DB601N.
This total applies to both C-4 and C-4/B, even for the C-7 which was a "serialized" C-4/B. Only 7 out of 39 aircraft were equipped with DB601N.
The bible on all of this is the Petrick/Mankau book:
'Bf110/Me210/Me410'..
You would have about 27 Bf 110C-4/Bs (includes C-4s and the 7 designated as C-7s) produced.
Thanks Bruno, never realised one of our 110's was that 'unusual'.
Really does make you wonder what the thought process is for some of these decisions at HT.
So that would make -
110C4/B - 27
Ta152 - 60-70
Seafire IIc - 110
The rarest, in that order, in the game.
Makes the N1K2 look positively common.
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Thanks Bruno, never realised one of our 110's was that 'unusual'.
Really does make you wonder what the thought process is for some of these decisions at HT.
So that would make -
110C4/B - 27
Ta152 - 60-70
Seafire IIc - 110
The rarest, in that order, in the game.
Makes the N1K2 look positively common.
You forgot about the Ostwind. I believe only about 40 were produced. It was more rare even than the Wirbelwind (which, granted, was only a little over 100 produced).
OK, not a plane, but still . . . very rare and modeled over a more common, somewhat equivalent vehicle (both on PzkwIV chassis).
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ahh rgr yah i heard from a friend that this was its prupose but i can c where u r coming from
now i am wellinformed
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They chose some planes over others to offer a different variety of the other online sims. Where other sims had B25s, HTC went out and made a B26 to be different. I think now that AH has replaced many of the other SIMs, HTC will start creating planes based on community needs and not just to be different from the rest.
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You know, volume of numbers isn't the only reason to include a plane. Pyro said he wanted to see the Me410 because "It would be cool to do all the weapons packages". Not because it had many kills, had hundreds upon hundreds of planes built, or anything. Because "it would be cool" :)
Sometimes you need look no further than that.
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Originally posted by Krusty
You know, volume of numbers isn't the only reason to include a plane. Pyro said he wanted to see the Me410 because "It would be cool to do all the weapons packages". Not because it had many kills, had hundreds upon hundreds of planes built, or anything. Because "it would be cool" :)
Sometimes you need look no further than that.
Nice to know that one of the logical reasons for adding a plane is because it's cool, LOLOLOLOL.
Not that it fills a gap, not that is needed, but cool, hell there's hope for a Spit F.21 after all.
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Here ya go LTARget
"Wirbelwind and Ostwind were fitted with very similar (especially designed) open-top (Wirbelwind's turret had 9 side panels and Ostwind's had 6 side panels) turrets mounted in the place of standard turrets. Ostwind's turret was nicknamed Keksdose - cookie tin. Main difference was that Wirbelwind was armed with quadruple 20mm Flak 38 L/112.5 guns while Ostwind was armed with single 37mm Flak 43 L/89 gun (both could be used against ground targets as well). 20mm Flak proved to be less effective than 37mm Flak and was eventually replaced by it. Both were produced by Ostbau Works in Sagan, Silesia in limited numbers due to the material shortages and the fact that Ostbau Works moved to facilities of Deutsche Eisenwerke in Teplitz and Duisburg due to danger of being overrun by the Soviets. Overall from May to November of 1944, only 87(105) Wirbelwinds were made, contrary to only 44(43) Ostwinds produced from July 1944 to March of 1945. Both vehicles were issued to Flugabwehrzug (AA platoons) units of Panzer Divisions. There were never enough of them to equip frontline units, which were in the need for adequate mobile AA defense. Both proved to be very effective against low flying aircraft. The interesting fact is that prototype Ostwindwas combat tested by 1st Waffen SS Panzer Division "Leibstandarte SS Adolf Hitler" during the Ardennes Offensive (December 16 to 22 of 1944) and returned to factory undamaged. "
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Originally posted by Kev367th
Nice to know that one of the logical reasons for adding a plane is because it's cool, LOLOLOLOL.
Not that it fills a gap, not that is needed, but cool, hell there's hope for a Spit F.21 after all.
If you think about it, there's no reason whatsoever to have a Ta152. I still love that we do!
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"You know, volume of numbers isn't the only reason to include a plane. Pyro said he wanted to see the Me410 because "It would be cool to do all the weapons packages". Not because it had many kills, had hundreds upon hundreds of planes built, or anything. Because "it would be cool"
Sometimes you need look no further than that."
And sometimes you need to look even further than that.
The choice of modelled aircraft seems strange, but I think the choices are done to present a planeset that is most balanced of a certain era. It has to be remembered that these planesets have to be used also in scenarios where an unfair advantage would ruin the fun. (Did 110C-4/B do that in BoB with its N engine? Was it too good against Spits and Hurris?)
I have often wondered if the planesets are done for MAs or for scenarios?
Because if you introduce a new plane to counter e.g. LA7 in main arenas the plane has to be included in planeset in scenarios and without a proper counterpart it would create a serious unbalance. Of course there are historical situations where the unbalance existed and it is appropriate for scenario/snapshot e.g. 109G6 against Spit IX or FW190A5 against Spit V.
What kind of unbalance do you think ME410 would create? OR P-39?
I think they would both be cool.
-C+
PS. Dear Santa (HT), please give Kev his Überspit so he can finally dump that strangely modelled Tiffie and start flying Spitties.
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Thanks Charge, but even I realise there's a lot more needs adding before the F.21 should even be considered.
At the moment I'd settle for a free Spit XIV as they unperked the Ta152, or the old V back as a clipped LF Vc for scenarios, now there is a big hole/miss in the planeset.
Or the Seafire with the much more common Merlin 32, every scenario so far that included the Seafire would have been a Merlin 32 LIIc or an Merlin 55 Seafire LIII.
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What kind of unbalance do you think ME410 would create?
The 410 won't be added any time soon due to the problems with modeling the gunner position.
The P-39 is a must have for the early PAC and Ostfront theaters for the CT.
(Did 110C-4/B do that in BoB with its N engine? Was it too good against Spits and Hurris?)
Look at the entire LW plane set and you see that any BoB scenario is just some made up of mixed match of aircraft - like most AH scenarios.
The Bf 109E-4 is the only plane in the set that truly belongs in a BoB event. Even then there were large numbers of E-1s and E-3s (many brought up to E-4 standards).
The Ju-88A-4 didn't fly during BoB. The pre-dominant A-1 was slower then the A-4 as was the A-5 (A-4 airframe and A-1 engines).
There's no early Stuka.
Finally, we come to the Bf 110C-4/B which over performs the standard and more common C-4. I was CO for the First AH BoB event and my Bf 110C-4/Bs ended the event with the highest KD ratio of any other plane. I didn't fly the last 2 BoB scenarios, or even check the stats. However, if the Bf 110C-4/B were deployed properly they should have dominated.
The problem with the overall AH plane set in its current form is that from the beginning planes were introduced based on whatever HTC decided to do at the time (cool factor..?) or to fill holes or needs in the main. Little thought was given to scenarios or to anything like the CT.
Even after ToD/CT was announced and 'in development' they introduced an aircraft like the P-47N when an early C model would have been better. They re-did the Fw 190s and an A-3 or A-4 was not introduced and neither was an Fw 190A-6 (an easy conversion from the A-5 - just add 2 MG151/2cm in the wings to replace the MGFF).
Outside of a very basic 8th AF CT every other theater will struggle with stand in aircraft and made up plane match ups.
When you look at the number of rare and very limited aircraft its hard to find any method to how, why and when for their introduction.
Any new plane is better then no new planes - especially in the old main. However, with the changes it would seem that there's the possibility to get away from the wonder weapons and to start filling the holes with more useful and common aircraft. This may or may not happen - I thought the same thing with the announcement of ToD/CT. It didn't happen.
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Totally agree Bruno.
As the Spits and 109/190s planes were remodelled together HT missed a great chance to finally have contempory adverseries.
Only 2 are the Spit I and 109E, rest are a mishmash of different time periods.
Surprising really because one of Pyros guidelines is that they should be useful for scenarios.
Yet we have an early 190 that if historically used wouldn't be around till 1943, way after the Spit IX introduction.
110s in BoB scenarios are a joke, even a Spit has problems getting close when they come in with alt, but they have yet to be remodelled, so you never know.
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I have to say that I'm more or less convinced that the plane sets could be better after reading your posts.
However, actually how much faster is C4-B than the plain C4? 10mph?
The Spit1 beats the110C4-B in every other aspect than in concentrated firepower and you say (again, Kev) that it is not enough?!?
It is obvious that 110 can make every fleeting snapshot count, where as the Brit planes need a few seconds of concentrated fire to cause a catastrophic failure during which time they are most vulnerable. Well I'm sure the situation was not much better during the actual BoB. But in our scenarios the axis has habit of putting excellent pilots in 110 because it needs discipline and good tactics to be flown effectively. It also has good firepower which rewards good shooters -and they do not do the same mistakes LW did above England. No defensive circles or relying on TG to clear six etc.
I don't think I managed to say anything that was not quite clear already...
"110s in BoB scenarios are a joke, even a Spit has problems getting close when they come in with alt, but they have yet to be remodelled, so you never know."
No, that sentence is a joke.
-C+
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S!
is it me or does the nik seem like the nik of old in ah? seems to handle better. just wondering.
S!
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Without getting into a pissing contest.
It's not a question of whats enough.
10mph makes a big difference when your still climbing to try and intercept something as you know.
In fact I believe towards the end of the BoB the 110s underperformed that badly they were given 109 escorts, yup fighters escorting fighters.
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Keep in mind the 110s were ordered into close formation escort for the bombers. They weren't allowed to develop effective tactics. Tactics make the battle, it seems. P40s vs highly manuverable planes and sturdy bombers, yet they still slaughtered the Japanese planes in China. Because they were able to develop tactics that worked.
109s weren't so feared at the beginning of the war because they were the best plane around, but rather because the LW pilots had spend half a decade training in other wars, as a pretext to develop wingman tactics, 2-flight splits for flights of 4, and so on.
In the Battle of Britian they were micro-managed to the extreme, being told how to fly, how fast, and where. They were not allowed to do anything which might have ultimately allowed them to be effective. Good thing for us, really. Bad thing for the reputation of their rides.
EDIT: On the previous posts: Ta152s might have had 60-70 made, but only 12 got to a unit (and just 1 unit's strength) before the end of the war. So it beats out all others for scarcity.
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Charge - Was thinking about the whole thing.
You remember why the old Spit V was very rarely used in scenarios?
Because a whole 5 mins of uber-boost was considered to over the top.
Yet a constant 10mph+ speed increase is OK?
HT missed their chance on the Spit / 109 / 190 remodel to finally have historic adversaries, maybe they will learn in the coming remodels.
As I pointed out if you were to do an accurate RPS the Spit IX ('42) would appear before the earliest 190 ('43), rather than vice versa.
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Keep in mind the "b" use used to denote bomb rack kit attachment. The 109E-4B had a bomb rack attached to the belly. The 110C-4B was the same. HTC doesn't say this plane has the DB 601N engines in it, on the planes page.
I'm curious, where did you come by this info, that the AH 110 has 601N's? As I recall it was always a fast plane. That's why it was developed, due to its amazing prototype top speed. However, it was never very aerobatic (historically).
So I'm curious (and maybe I've totally just overlooked this, if it's obvious I'm sorry), where did you find mention of the improved 601Ns?
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We know the speed and power settings for the Bf 110C-4/B in AH...
The 110C in the game is technically a 110C-4b which differs from the 110C-4 not just with the addition of bomb racks, but also with the more powerful DB 601N engines.
Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
The Bf 110C-4/B in AH is modeled with DB601N engines. I gave a book reference to what could be consider the 'bible' on the subject:
H. Mankau and P. Petrick
Messerschmidt Bf 110, Me 210, Me 410.
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Because a whole 5 mins of uber-boost was considered to over the top.
Yet a constant 10mph+ speed increase is OK?
I haven't seen any recent speed test for the Bf11C-4/B in AH but an old test showed it to be 20 to 25mph faster then the Standard Bf 110C-4 w/ DB601A.
typo edit
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Originally posted by Kev367th
As the Spits and 109/190s planes were remodelled together HT missed a great chance to finally have contempory adverseries.
Only 2 are the Spit I and 109E, rest are a mishmash of different time periods.
Surprising really because one of Pyros guidelines is that they should be useful for scenarios.
Yet we have an early 190 that if historically used wouldn't be around till 1943, way after the Spit IX introduction.
I agree, spit 1 / 109E are contemporary adversaries. The later ones do have contemporaries (spit 9 vs 109G2/G6, Spit 14 vs 109K) while others are "mishmash".
My hard core vision of spit-109-190-typh/temp contemporaries would look like this...
Early War
Spit 1A vs 109E-3/E-4
Spit 2B/5B vs 109E-7/F-2
Mid War
Spit 5C/LF 8/F 9, Typhoon vs 190A-3/A-6, 109F-4/G-2/G-6
Late war
Spit 14/LF 16, Temp vs 109G-14/K-4, 190A-8/D-9
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Originally posted by Bruno
I haven't seen any recent speed test for the Bf11C-4/B in AH but an old test showed it to be 20 to 25mph faster then the Standard Bf 110C-4 w/ DB601A.
typo edit
Quite a bit more than the 10mph suggested.
Add that to the Ju-88's it's easy to see why in the BoB scenario its difficult for the RAF to intercept a lot of the time.
Hoping for the more used He-111 sometime, lot slower and less well defensively armed.
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He-111 or a Dornier 17 would be great for 1940 stuff. We have been asking for awhile, but there are a lot of requests out there, oh well, maybe at some point.
We need more axis bombers, not jets. Even a He-177 I would welcome, just as something other than a Ju-88.
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The Ju-88A-4 is 12 mph faster then the A-1 (most common Ju-88 during BoB))and 24 mph then the A-5 (A-4 airframe with A-1 engines).
The problems with bombers is that you are only guaranteed to see one variant. So if you model all early BoB variantLW bombers then the LW has nothing for '40 and beyond. If you go mid-war as a compromise then early war suffers.
I can understand that to a degree but with chosing a plane like the 110C-4/b or P-47N when there are clear needs for earlier / different models then it only makes sense for the old main.
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38s are still better
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my whole take on it plane selection is this .. if you dont have the varients and planes then your really not doing any justice by seperating the arenas into time era's certain planes where made for purposes during those time periods and the excuse they are not useful in the AH arena cause you already have planes that cover the jobs. but thats not the point .. or shouldnt be. the fact the different varients where there is reason to have them in the game. and also having the planes in the right time periods. you didnt see early model planes in the 1944-45 did you? most where out dated and replaced or shot down. yet in LW they are there. you HT isnt gonna use the right planes that where actually in the time period then what is really going on? its like 95% of the GV's in EW arena .. are all LW gvs that came out in '44-45' .. HT should have thought of that and got some GVS from 39-42 and put them in there to fill in the other gvs before spliting the arena into time era's..
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Originally posted by 1K3
Typhoon vs 109F-4/G-2/G-6
Unless that is an experience 109 pilot, that F-4 is pretty much dead and burried. The typhoon, when flown properly (This isnt from experience, I cannot fly one to save my life, but form watching others) can outrun as well as boom-and-zoom far better than the 109F requiring the messerschmitt pilot to have a pretty good knowledge of ACM.