Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunslinger on November 05, 2006, 10:26:10 PM
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Iv84yS_RaQM
I couldn't beleive this when I heard it, then I saw the news report.
Wow
just
wow!
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Been going softer for decades. When I went to bootcamp Navy in '86 the CC's couldn't curse at us, only yell. No hands on either. My dad thought that was completely :rolleyes: because of what he went through in '51. But, it IS the Army.
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I think the old veteran summed it up pretty good...
Having it stressful and hard makes completing boot camp an accomplishment.
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I disagree. I think you should be able to question orders but only as a way for checks and balances. By that I mean the OIC or senior enlisted has the ability to discern lawful from unlawful orders.
Stress should be the focus at bootcamp IMHO. Weed out those that can't take simple stress at the beginning is the main point of bootcamp to me. It's just basic training. The hardcore stuff comes later.
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Let me say this: I do disagree with how soft it is now, the cell phone thing and the non-yelling at recruits. But for the most part I don't think it's a big deal.
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Originally posted by DiabloTX
I disagree. I think you should be able to question orders but only as a way for checks and balances. By that I mean the OIC or senior enlisted has the ability to discern lawful from unlawful orders.
Stress should be the focus at bootcamp IMHO. Weed out those that can't take simple stress at the beginning is the main point of bootcamp to me. It's just basic training. The hardcore stuff comes later.
You are right, and part of the stress we put on new recruits is the yelling. If they can't handle being yelled at and being stressed out then how they hell are they going to react under fire?
I had a kid litterally fall over and curl up in the fetal position because I yelled at him once. He couldn't do anything right. He did nothing but drink mountain dew, eat doritos and play everquest all day long as a civilian. He couldn't handle the very minimal amount of stress I applied to him at all and broke very easily.
I also couldn't beleive the thing about cell phones. They are a HUGE discration. Calls home should be earned and not freely given out. Otherwise you will have that 10% that do nothing but talk on the phone all night instead of shining their boots or taking care of their areas/details.
8 hours of sleep, all you can eat chow hall.....Like the title says the Air Force Basic Training is now harder than the Army's
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I'll go with the old guy.
When I say jump, you say how high. Not when I say jump you say now?
Cell phones in basic? I was AirForce and we had an easy boot back in the 80s I thought. I'd be embarrassed. May as well start a draft, if they are keeping dregs now.
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We had one of those in our company. We called them "bugs". The sad thing is this guy really wanted to be a sailor, and he tried his heart out. He just had no ability to do the things required to make it through bootcamp. I've never seen someone want something so bad, try so damn hard, and fall on his face everytime. We'd give him EMI to compensate for his short-comings but he could never get it right. I never found out if he graduated boot or not. Probably weeded out in the end which was the right thing to do.
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I think bootcamp has it backwards. Psychological stress should be applied gradually and increasingly. Instead of being harder at the beginning stage of Boot, it should be hardest at the end. This is because the mind adapts to stress in a similar fashion to the body.
But I guess it all depends on what the real purpose of Boot is. If its to weed out individuals succeptable to stress, leave it as it is. If its to turn civilians into soldiers (granted, some people make much worse soldiers than others), then do it the new cellphone/8hrs sleep/buffet/ way.
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Cell phones in Boot? What kind of candyarsed Gomer Pyle factory are they running? Do they even make them do pushup's anymore or is that too ******* hard?
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cell phones in boot wtf?
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I guess this kind of 'lessons' are a no no in america. :D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8R5mhfM9p0E
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I hope everyone understands we are bashing the troops in this thread.:huh
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See Rule #17
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Now if only they could make combat nice, soft and politically correct as well.......
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It is, if you're in Armor.
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I guess the army doesn't want the bottom of the barrel to quit.
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Originally posted by rpm
I hope everyone understands we are bashing the troops in this thread.:huh
(http://img116.exs.cx/img116/1231/z7shysterical.gif)
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Im bashing the system. For years they've trained troops...and now someone has a better idea? Soft PC BS.
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What does proper troop conditioning have to do with politics?
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Lol, looks like my "bootcamp" from filmmaking was tougher. We couldn't have phones so easily, we were yelled at, we had to march forever in soft sand with WW2 gear and do endless foxholes and running up and round and dive into craters etc. Some guys had to do an 8 hrs shift on Higgins boats or LVT's that were in the sea basically going in circles, - that means no toilet and no food, hehe. And we were outside and rather cold most of the time. The food sucked in the beginning, but got better later on.
And...we had the time of our lives. It was a BLAST! And our screaming sergeants vere our absolute favourites!!! :aok
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Im sorry, but wtf is wrong with having a cellphone as long as you use it when off-duty? Jeez.. its 2006.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Im sorry, but wtf is wrong with having a cellphone as long as you use it when off-duty? Jeez.. its 2006.
It doesn't specify if authorized use is limited to "off-duty" only, so who knows. The fact that some luxury as the use of a cell phone should be earned, not given. The 8 weeks I was in BC I got to call home once. And that was after 6 weeks of earning the right to call home. Not to mention cell phone etiquette, or lack there of, is crazy now. You find people that will DIE if they don't have their cell phones within easy grasp. Boot camp is to weed out the civilian crutches: soda, junk food, playstation, internet, and television. Cell phones should be added to that list as well.
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If I remember correctly we could use them after 4 weeks when not in class or on other duty/training. Wasnt really a problem back then as small cellphones had not become something everyone at that age had. If someone did have one and it was not switched off when on duty it did not matter if you had been in the service for 2 weeks or 2 years... it got confiscated.
If on a ship we could not use them at all except when the skipper announced it, and that was usually for half an hour when he felt like it. Could go days without having that option. If someone turned it on when not allowed there was a gizmo on the ship that sniffed it asap and you would be in a world of **** :cool:
You could use the payphones on bases whenever you had the time/offduty. Didnt matter if you were in bootcamp.
We had plenty of yelling and shouting, but who cares about that really. If you feel intimedated by that then you are weak. You dont get respect for an officer if he yells at you anyway exept for perhaps the first few weeks when everything is new.
After that you ignore it. Respect for officers is not something you get after beeing yelled at. Respect is something you give an officer that knows his business and knows how to make you understand that and respect him for it. If you are worried about getting kicked out then you do as he said when he sees you. If you respect him and is not just worried about getting yelled at then you do as he sais or teaches you even when he is not around.
Respect and yelling in itself has nothing to do with eachother.
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Here's the Marines wicked swim traning. Hehe, you wear combat gear and they drop you in.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NJedBsKgxFY&mode=related&search=
I did that with WW2 gear, but no gun (just a shovel) . Anyway, you jump into the deep end and you're supposed to get your helmet and backpack off and swim with those items to the shallow ground.
Hehe, I flushed, couldn't get my backpack off. Well, I swam with the backpack, but to be by the book I had to go again.
One guy panicked and ripped his helmet off the straps, lol.
It was a blast!
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A real soldier swallows the water and walks were he needs to go :cool:
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LOL, reminds me of a true story.
Happened at Arnhem, when the Brits were trying to advance over water, - in little boats, while basically being massacred by German machine gun fire and artillery.
One boad toppled, dropping the whole and loaded crew into the water. This was wittnessed by soldiers who had made it ashore.
One gunner, wrapped in ammo belts sank like a stone.
Anyway, less than a minute later, a soldier on the bank saw a helmet coming out of the water, then a head, then a whole soldier, WALKING out of the water.
He was so heavily loaded that he sank to the bottom, which was smooth and not so sticky, so he walked.
:aok to that guy for holding his breath, orientation and guts together.
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I went through Army boot in 89 and then Coast Guard boot in 92. Yes I did it twice, and neither time was I allowed to use the phone before week 4 and then it was a timed 10 minute call to one number with a DI standing right there.
At Army boot at Ft. Sill we were beat on a regular basis. 20 pushups was the max they could drop us for at any one time so they got around that by having us drop to "winds" as they called it. We would drop do 20, stand up do a right face and right back down again, untill we had knocked out 80 pushups. I had DI's in my face screaming at me if I screwed up and I was able to take it. Lights out was at 2200 and they were kicking the cans at 0500 for PT. Out of almost 90 guys in my platoon we had 1 guy that cracked and lost it. He was kicked out. We had 2 more that were rolled into the next cycle due to injuries.
It was hard and it was stressfull and when I finished I knew I had accomplished something important. Coast Guard boot was easy for me because I already knew what to expect.
Now it's just to easy for these kids. They don't get the stress in boot that they need to be able to cope with real world operations. At my last operational command (the cutter Legare) we had these kids come to the ship and they would lose their minds on deployments. I had one girl on my ship that worked for me in combat. We had just come off an 8 hour watch and they set the Law Enforcement bill to go board this freighter, so we had to go back on watch. She got mad, left combat and went to her rack. I had to send someone to find her and bring her back. When I asked her what she was thinking she told me "I already did my 8 hours today and it's not fair that I have to stand watch on my time." At that point I lost it and explained in no uncertain terms that when she is onboard the ship she is on duty 24/7/365 and if she EVER left combat again like that I was going to book her. 3 weeks later I had her at captains mast, charged with failure to obey a lawfull order.
She wasn't the only person on the ship like that. ALL these new kids think they can do whatever they want, whenever they want, and then looked shocked when they get hammered for it. They question simple orders, and give smart prettythang answers, and have no respect for authority.
Boot camp needs to be as tough as possible to teach these kids that high stress is an everyday part of life in the military. If they can't handle it, then wash them out and get rid of them.
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thank god there is still a Marine Corp.
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1988 MCRD San Diego - I got to call home, collect, on a payphone once and I cant ever recall getting 8 hours sleep. During our time at the range we had "mess" duty and got 2 or 3 hours a night for a week solid. This dude Marcell (you out the Celly?) fell asleep on his feet, slipped forward and burned his face and hands in a vat of bubbling patty melt matter, then cracked his Mellon on the floor... Poor fker lol.
fluff'n cell phones to call home?... weak.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
I went through Army boot in 89 and then Coast Guard boot in 92. Yes I did it twice, and neither time was I allowed to use the phone before week 4 and then it was a timed 10 minute call to one number with a DI standing right there.
At Army boot at Ft. Sill
I was at Ft. Sill in 1988-89, ah yes lovely Lawton OK, aka "the anus", for 0847 - artillery meteorology - school. The Marine detachment was near ICO hall. Our mess hall was the bomb, they'd make any kind of omelet, double extra cheese, bacon... pile it on.
It was cool watching those C130s swoop down, roll on the runway, then power up and take off.. 1 after another all day sometimes. We used to sit at the artillery bowl drinking beers watching those dudes... then we'd go around the corner where the Army boots got their heads shaved and mock them until the DI's barked at us to leave.
I wonder if those cruddy strip bars still there just off base.. they actually served beer in an 1 gallon empty milk jugs and had some hot trailer park sluts getting naked... oh man the fights we got into. Good times.
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How could anything be easier than the USAF boot camp?
I went through it in '82 and I actually gained 10lbs because I got out of shape.
The most we did in a day was 25 pushups 25 jumping jacks 25 sit ups and ran as a group for 1 1/4 mile.
Getting yelled at only happened if you didn't make your bed right or if your locker was out of order.
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Cell phones????? Give me a break! USAF Basic, Nov-Dec '73. At least 4 weeks before one was allowed one a collect call.
No one was allowed to strike us. They could yell a lot. The stress was very high. I recall the first day as a Rainbow (Field jacket only, no uniforms issued yet - thus we were called Rainbow's) standing in one of many formations at attention (we had not earned a parade rest) and thinking, "It is only 8 weeks long, took me 926 weeks to get here. I can do 8."
Life expectancy of 72 years equals 3744 weeks. 8 weeks is only 0.021367521367521367521367521 367521 % of your life. Why foul up the rest of your life by failing boot?
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The training standards have been steadily going down for years, and the quality of product being shipped to the Force has also been steadily going down for years.
The Headshed isn't making the connection or is satisfied with what they have created.
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Army is moving into the future so it doesn't have to be tough they aren't fighing with rocks and sticks anymore
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December 13th is my first day at Great Lakes. 10 days after my birthday. Im not expecting it to be very hard. But having a 6 year advantage over other recruits I think it gives me a better mindset of what is coming. The hardest part I find is leaving my family and my friends behind. Im spending this month collecting addresses and phone numbers of my friends and family.
Few weeks ago a buddy of mine just got back from Marine Corp. basic. First thing he said to me was "they still hit you."
I dont think any boot camp is any harder then the next. Its all up to the individual and what they make of it. But, I havnt been through all, or any of that matter, real boot camps. So my opinion means nothing.
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Originally posted by Mightytboy
How could anything be easier than the USAF boot camp?
I went through it in '82 and I actually gained 10lbs because I got out of shape.
The most we did in a day was 25 pushups 25 jumping jacks 25 sit ups and ran as a group for 1 1/4 mile.
Getting yelled at only happened if you didn't make your bed right or if your locker was out of order.
I'm an instructor for the Air Force and I yell a ton. They get two mandated phone calls before the 5th week of training. One apon arival to give their address to their parents and say very clearly "NO PACKAGES" and the other the weekend before the 4th week of training to coordinate travel plans with their parents.
Other than that what ever phone calls they get home they earn through performance and let me tell you it is one of the best carrots that I have to wave in their faces.
On the stick side I'm allowed to make them do 2 min "exercise challenges" consisting of pushups, flutter kicks, and diamons. I am restricted on where and when I can do this (IE at the mess hall and after chow time) and I am also restricted on the amount that I can beat them.
Other than that there's other games we play to stress them out such as you have 19 seconds to get here GO and when they fail they start over.
If an instructor is restricted on using his voice the recruits just arent getting the same experience. You can scream all you want and still provide mentorship. Some of these kids we get have had everything given to them their whole lives and show up expecting the same. It is a rude friggen awakening.
Also, Gradually doesnt work because you definatly want to put a shock to their system. Fire fights don't gradually become intense, they usually flair up and trigger a human's "flee/fight response". You want to discourage the first one and encourage the latter. If they can't handle a ton of stress droped on them in an instant they will crack under the pressure of modern warfare.
Couple all of this with the most basic tennants of discipline. You NEED them to have that instant willing obeidence to all orders and commands. There's a limited amount of ways to acheived that with the restrictrions placed on the instructor. When the NCO says "take that objective" you don't want your troops to question why you just want them to act.
I simply cannot fathom making boot camp easier to accomidate the changes in America's youth. It strikes in the face of all that have served and made it.
Lower standards have never produced better quality in anything that I am aware of.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
and I am also restricted on the amount that I can beat them.
:lol
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
:lol
Keep in mind when I say "I beat my flight today" that is instructorspeak for "they did ALOT of pushups"
:aok
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
Army is moving into the future so it doesn't have to be tough they aren't fighing with rocks and sticks anymore
While this may be true to a very small extent, untill someone has experianced 48 to 72 hours or even 96 hours with little to no sleep in a high tempo high stress operation, the lack of toughness in todays military can become a liability.
With todays recruits "learning" at boot camp that the cell phone is there for them to call mommy or their sweetheart if it gets to rough, and "learning" that the senior people in charge won't yell at them if they make a mistake IMHO is a huge mistake. The boot camps are conditioning these young people to a reality that is false in the world of real time operations. They expect to have orders explained to them instead of just doing what they're told. They are being conditioned so that if they do make a mistake it's "OK I messed up so someone is going to pull me aside and explain it to me again...no big deal" and that kind of conditioning will get people killed.
I think people have started to forget that boot camp isn't summer camp. It's not supposed to be fun or gentle. It's supposed to turn soft individual civilians into hard teamworking soldiers.
I speak from personal experiance that for the Coast Guard, the last few years the quality of recruits coming out of boot camp has fallen way off. Recruits now carry a "training time out" card in their pocket. If it gets to "tough" for them they can whip that card out and go have some time alone to recover. So what happens when they get to an operational unit? As soon as things get tough they want to quit and go sit in a time out. Well the real world doesn't allow that. They complain which pisses of the senior people so we yell at them to get off their sorry #$%'s and do their jobs, and we end up with dicipline problems.
Military conditioning starts day one of boot camp and it should be tough enough to make these kids wake up and realize that what they are doing is not a game. It's not a job. It's a way of life. Break them down and then build them back up as soldiers, sailors, airmen, and marines who will stick with the mission until it's completed no matter how hard it gets.
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I know. It just sounded funny. I think the Marines call it "smoking".
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Lower standards have never produced better quality in anything that I am aware of.
Its kind of ironic, the only example I can think of is the AK-47 and M-16.
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Its kind of ironic, the only example I can think of is the AK-47 and M-16.
Please tell me your not saying the AK-47 is a better rifle than the M-16?
The M-16 is eazier to shoot, has longer range, is more acurate, and if properly maintained is just as reliable.
The only advantage the AK has over the M-16 is any idiot can use it. The M-16 needs a properly trained person to use and maintain it.
Personaly I'd rather have a trained person with an M-16 by my side than an idiot with an AK-47.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
I know. It just sounded funny. I think the Marines call it "smoking".
Yup, or going to the "pit". The dreaded sand pit was a rough experience.
I'm not kidding here when I say I just got rid of a kid that litteraly crumpled up and went into the fetal position just from me raising my voice at him. I was at my desk, he was standing in my doorway getting counsled for his poor performance.
Just from getting yelled at he broke and my voice can't physically hurt him unless it's right next to his ear. It took 5 weeks and a bunch of paperwork to finally get him out on an admin sep for failure to adapt.
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
Army is moving into the future so it doesn't have to be tough they aren't fighing with rocks and sticks anymore
Can we blame the Dallas school system on this one, too???
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I went to Fort Lost In the Woods in 2000 And there they kicked our arshes Like the man said above I never saw 8 hours of sleep until grad night. I hope they dont think that this new treatment is going to win us any wars?
Any one here remmember getting SMOKED in BCT? Or Gorrila Drills? Front Back Go's?
Yea this is the Army I want on my front lines:rofl
BCT is trying to make things hard for a reason IE WAR.
HA HA I can see this-Sgt. SAYS- Pvt.GO GET AHOULD OF THAT 50 AND SUPRESS THE ENEMY!!!!!
Pvt, relpy's STOP YELLING A ME ILL PULL MY STRESS CARD OUT !!!!! I QUIT!!!! MOMMYYYYYYYYY.
Face it guys our Army is failing hard. Now we will have to call the MARINES to get something done.:furious :mad::lol :aok
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I'll be leaving for MCRD, San Diego in about a week.
I've heard from Marines that have just graduated that it wasn't as tough as it's made out to be, but mentally it screwed with them alot.
They've also said that a Gen.Salinas (sp?) just made it a little easier. Like during The Crucible instead of 3 MRE's to every 2 men, it's 6 or so. The packs were lightened too.
:huh
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Yup, or going to the "pit". The dreaded sand pit was a rough experience.
I'm not kidding here when I say I just got rid of a kid that litteraly crumpled up and went into the fetal position just from me raising my voice at him. I was at my desk, he was standing in my doorway getting counsled for his poor performance.
Just from getting yelled at he broke and my voice can't physically hurt him unless it's right next to his ear. It took 5 weeks and a bunch of paperwork to finally get him out on an admin sep for failure to adapt.
We had a "pit" in my "basic". It was an old tennis court that had the pavement removed leaving behind rocks and some sand. At first whole companies would go there and do pt for most of the night. Our DIs were ex-Marines and went all out on us. Being 13 at the time alot of kids couldnt handle it. There were a large number of injuries including broken bones. Its hard to explain it but it wasnt meant to be. The DI's were investigated and discharged from the program. The Army officers that ran Fort Drum heard of the events that took place and decided to not invite the program to hold future trainings on their base.
Ive staffed alot of our boot camps in the past few years. In the beginning it was pretty much anything goes as per making ricks do pt and punishment. But as the years went by it went to the CCs and ACCs doing the punishment with the ricks to eventually only officers being able to make the ricks do pt.
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Originally posted by DJ111
I'll be leaving for MCRD, San Diego in about a week.
I've heard from Marines that have just graduated that it wasn't as tough as it's made out to be, but mentally it screwed with them alot.
They've also said that a Gen.Salinas (sp?) just made it a little easier. Like during The Crucible instead of 3 MRE's to every 2 men, it's 6 or so. The packs were lightened too.
:huh
Your gona be a Hollywood Marine. They issue sunglasses at basic. :p
Good luck bud. If you end up being a fleet Marine I'll buy you a few drinks once we reach a port. Heck, I'll buy you a few in any port if your a fleet Marine or not. :aok
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I asked my Recruiter if there was any chance I could go to the Island, but he told me no, so... :(
Sweet, hope I can take ya up on that soon.
I'm going for 0331, btw :cool:
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When I was going to sign up for the Marines I asked the recruiter about going to the Island. He said that anyone living west of the Mississippi goes to San Diego. Everyone East goes to the Island. The only exception being that if your father or grandfather went to the Island you can go there.
Whats a 0331 ?
I'll be a AT (Aviation Technician) Good chance I'll be stationed on a carrier.
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
December 13th is my first day at Great Lakes. 10 days after my birthday. Im not expecting it to be very hard. But having a 6 year advantage over other recruits I think it gives me a better mindset of what is coming. The hardest part I find is leaving my family and my friends behind. Im spending this month collecting addresses and phone numbers of my friends and family.
Few weeks ago a buddy of mine just got back from Marine Corp. basic. First thing he said to me was "they still hit you."
You beat my birthday by one day.
Btw, I heard from a buddy who got back from Marine boot that they didn't lay a finger on them. So I guess it varies.
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My source is from a kid who would lie about it tho. Just to make himself look more hard-core.
Wasnt there a incident in the news not long about about abuse at a Navy boot camp? A recruit ending up drowning I think...
You share a B-day with Tyra Banks and Jay-Z. Im with Ozzy!
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0331 is a Machine Gunner.
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Cool! :aok
Mmm M240...
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Mk.19, M2, AND M240... :D
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Originally posted by Hornet33
Please tell me your not saying the AK-47 is a better rifle than the M-16?
The M-16 is eazier to shoot, has longer range, is more acurate, and if properly maintained is just as reliable.
The only advantage the AK has over the M-16 is any idiot can use it. The M-16 needs a properly trained person to use and maintain it.
Personaly I'd rather have a trained person with an M-16 by my side than an idiot with an AK-47.
Oh lookie here, we have a weapons expert.
The Ak-47 had much looser tolerances than the M-16. Therefore, under actual combat conditions, it *worked*. Fully automatic, firing rounds heavy enough to cause serious damage, the AK-47 was and is a much more suitable rifle for the average grunt than the M-16.
The ole '16 deathrap claims victims every war. Remember those transport guys who got caught in an ambush. They were ready and willing to fight their way out- except for one thing. Their pos M-16 sand-magnets wouldn't work.
Ask the soldiers in Baghdad what ranges they are engaging targets at. 5m-50m would be the average.
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Originally posted by Mightytboy
How could anything be easier than the USAF boot camp?
I went through it in '82 and I actually gained 10lbs because I got out of shape.
The most we did in a day was 25 pushups 25 jumping jacks 25 sit ups and ran as a group for 1 1/4 mile.
Getting yelled at only happened if you didn't make your bed right or if your locker was out of order.
Pretty much exactly like my experience from 1971 as well. I was in better physical shape going in than going out.
Maybe now that Gunslinger is there its tuffer :)
culero (well, we only had to do 15 pushups and situps)
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
Oh lookie here, we have a weapons expert.
The Ak-47 had much looser tolerances than the M-16. Therefore, under actual combat conditions, it *worked*. Fully automatic, firing rounds heavy enough to cause serious damage, the AK-47 was and is a much more suitable rifle for the average grunt than the M-16.
The ole '16 deathrap claims victims every war. Remember those transport guys who got caught in an ambush. They were ready and willing to fight their way out- except for one thing. Their pos M-16 sand-magnets wouldn't work.
Ask the soldiers in Baghdad what ranges they are engaging targets at. 5m-50m would be the average.
I'm something of a weapons expert, yes. I currently own 42 (rifles, pistols, and shotguns) personal weapons, and I've fired just about every personal and crew served weapon in the military. I also own one of each and I prefer my M-16 over the AK any day of the week. The only reason I have an AK was because it was only $300 so I figured why not.
I also served in Desert Storm, cleaned my rifle twice a day and never had a problem with it. It fired everytime I pulled the trigger.
Now with that being said, I never claimed the AK was a piece of crap. It is a good assult rifle, but all things being equal, the M-16 is a better piece of equipment. It is lighter, easier to shoot, more accurate, and has longer range. Pound for pound you can also carry more ammo with an M-16 since the 5.56mm is almost twice as light as the 7.62x39 round for the AK.
And as far as the Looser Tolorances so it "worked" in combat statement. I saw that program on the military channel also.
Anyways like I said, I'll take an M-16 over an AK any day of the week. I base that on my experiance with it in combat and my use of the one I own at the range.
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My experiences and opinions differ, but to each their own. I'd rather not have to clean my weapon twice a day, and with a Stoner design it's pretty much a understood that you'd better.
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The trouble is in a war against an opponent that could fight us on equal terms, Im afraid alot of our technology would be put out of action early on, and we would have to fall back to sticks and stones. In WW1 the trench shovel was one of the most common weapons. Imagine fighting with those...beside a guy whose feelings are hurt if yelled at.
We pride ourselves on a professional army. I dont care if the guy can use a computer.
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Col David Hackworth (recently deceased), while in Vietnam constructing a firebase, uncovered a dead vietnamese with an AK47 who had been buried for a few months. In a demonstration to his troops, he kicked the bolt open with his boot, and fired an entire 30 round magazine out of the mud caked ak47.
Source: About Face -Col David Hackworth
Well, you're a veteran. I could post all about Somalia, and how the troops had to fire round after round into the Somalis because the 5.56mm wounds weren't killing them. But I bet you've heard this before. And about how the M4 loses critical fragmentation velocity after 50-75 yards.
And I'm sure you know that the 5.56mm round was developed from a World War II study that showed that the side that puts out more small arms fire usually won the firefight . But how do you lay down more fire than your opponent with a semi-automatic rifle?
Fully automatic, the M-16 might be ok if your in a conventional style firefight. Just don't get your rifle wet or dirty, and be sure to clean it five times a day.
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We've had this exact same argument before. This debate will get no where and will probably go in a circle 2-3 times before this thread is closed.
So let's keep talking about how big of pansies the army is. :D
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Also, BlueJ. My friend told me that one of the recruits did die during his bootcamp. He went through in the middle of the summer.
One double black flag day while they were at the range, this recruit passed out. They took his temperature reading as 108 (fahr). He pretty much cooked his brain. All from not drinking enough water.
While he wasn't technically dead, the family pulled the plug on him within a week.
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Come on AquaShrimp, tell us how many firearms you on. If you own an M-16 and an AK. And any relevent military experice.
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One should know better by now about taking shrimp bait.
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And one should know better then to say the word "One" in place of the word "you." It makes one sound like a sweetheartbag.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
And one should know better then to say the word "One" in place of the word "you." It makes one sound like a sweetheartbag.
This is coming from plenty of personal experience I take it?
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Personal peeve of mine. Just watch next time. When someone uses "One," the way they say it definately applies to the term sweetheartbag.
Pay attention. I expect a report in several days from you verifying what I said to be true. You'll forget I said this, but after several times of someone saying it, you should notice it.
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One should not request things one knows aren't going to happen.
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Just try it. Most people get the same look on their face when they use the word "One" as a pronoun. If a guy did that to you in any other situation, you'd think he was a sweetheartbag and would want to punch him in the face.
Try it. Think of it as the only favor I'll ever ask. Listen to and watch how d-bags use the word "One."
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Originally posted by Thrawn
Come on AquaShrimp, tell us how many firearms you on. If you own an M-16 and an AK. And any relevent military experice.
I'm educated on military history, not a soldier. Its a bad assertion to link serving in the military or owning a ak-47/m-16 to being educated on small arms combat and philosophy.
I'll tell you what I do have. I have hundreds of first hand accounts, the opinions of many combat veterans, and facts and figures to back up my claims.
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Isnt it true that many american soldiers prefers to use AKs in Iraq? I know that some do so because then the weapon sounds just like the guns that the insurgats use and it wont draw as much attention as the sound of an M16, but the Iraqi security forces also use the AK.
No idea witch weapon is best, but then in not biased either way. I do know that the M16 was rejected by the Norwegian army due to cold weather performance, but then many units use the C8 and a variation of the C8 may become the next assault rifle for the army when they select new rifles soon. Isnt the Diemaco C8 basicly a variation of the M16?
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I'm educated on military history, not a soldier. Its a bad assertion to link serving in the military or owning a ak-47/m-16 to being educated on small arms combat and philosophy.
I'll tell you what I do have. I have hundreds of first hand accounts, the opinions of many combat veterans, and facts and figures to back up my claims.
What needs to be remembered here is that many of these combat vets that complain about the M-16's poor performance, and countries rejecting the rifle due to performance failures of one sort or anouther were mostly based on the older M-16 design (M-16 / M16A1). The modern M-16A2 with all the improvments made to the weapon is a very reliable peice of hardware.
Also the situation in Somalia with the rounds not killing was due to the type of rounds the soldiers were issued. They were using "slap" rounds. Those are a plastic coated titanium round designed to penetrate body armor. Firing that round against the Somlians, it tended to go right through them without causing significant damage. Had the soldiers been issued standard ball ammo, those rounds would have been more effective.
I have a very good friend that served in Somalia and he has told me several times that the rifles performed great, it was the ammo that was the problem. Of course at the time the slap rounds were new and the military higher ups thought it was the greatest thing since sliced bread so that's what they were issued, oops.
Now about your statement of:
"Its a bad assertion to link serving in the military or owning a ak-47/m-16 to being educated on small arms combat and philosophy."
Who is better qualified to make a statement about this subject? Someone who has used the weapon in question in combat and owns one for their personal use, or someone who has just read about it and seen some TV shows about it?
I do consider myself something of an expert because I have used it in combat, I do own many types of weapons, I have received professional military training concerning many different weapons. I maintain all my own weapons, I have a limited amount of gunsmithing experiance under my belt and that experiance is growing. I handload my own ammo for a majority of the weapons I own. I also do allot of reading to stay up to date on the current weapons that are out there.
So.....it is MY opinion based on MY experiance and knowledge that makes ME prefer the M-16 over the AK-47.
Academic study of a subject does not make someone an expert. That requires study and real world experiance with the subject first hand. I'll always trust the guy with 10-20 years experiance over the new guy with the degree. Education is only a foundation. Experiance builds the house.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
I simply cannot fathom making boot camp easier to accomidate the changes in America's youth. It strikes in the face of all that have served and made it.
Lower standards have never produced better quality in anything that I am aware of.
It's worked in our school systems. According to the Dems of course. :rofl
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Originally posted by Hornet33
Please tell me your not saying the AK-47 is a better rifle than the M-16?
The M-16 is eazier to shoot, has longer range, is more acurate, and if properly maintained is just as reliable.
The only advantage the AK has over the M-16 is any idiot can use it. The M-16 needs a properly trained person to use and maintain it.
Personaly I'd rather have a trained person with an M-16 by my side than an idiot with an AK-47.
10-4
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I'm educated on military history, not a soldier. Its a bad assertion to link serving in the military or owning a ak-47/m-16 to being educated on small arms combat and philosophy.
I'll tell you what I do have. I have hundreds of first hand accounts, the opinions of many combat veterans, and facts and figures to back up my claims.
Hmmm...previously you didn't have my account. You have not been a soldier, you don't own either weapon. You have not fired a shot in anger or fear.
I carried the M-16 for 20 years. No complaints here.
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The last thing I wanted to happen was this thread turn into an M16 Vrs AK argument that We've had MANY MANY times over allready. Especially when you have the ONLY one arguing here who has probably never fired either weapon and knows everything from the books he's read.
EDIT:
And I still don't think that the AK is made from lower standards. When making any weapon you have to have tolerences. Lowering the standards on those tolerences doesn't make a better weapon.
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In the last 4 years, I've gained a great deal of respect for the AK and lost a great deal of confidence in the 16. The AK ain't a perfect gun by any means, tho.
If I could carry anything I wanted, I'd carry a Galil.
Back on topic: issue Galil rifles to new recruits in Basic and then kick them in the arse.
:p
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Originally posted by VOR
In the last 4 years, I've gained a great deal of respect for the AK and lost a great deal of confidence in the 16. The AK ain't a perfect gun by any means, tho.
If I could carry anything I wanted, I'd carry a Galil.
Back on topic: issue Galil rifles to new recruits in Basic and then kick them in the arse.
:p
What's funny is the Air Force JUST this year started issuing M16 Trainer rifles and teaching trainees how to break them down and maintain them. For the first time every single trainee will be required to break one down and put it back together before graduating. This is a GREAT first step. It just seems funny to me that Air Force BMT is getting harder while the Army's is getting easier.
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Gunslinger, I kid you not: in Mosul in 2003, some AF guys showed up with unissued M16A1 rifles still in the plastic wrappers. I don't know if they were brand spanking new or refurbs, but the point is they got on the plane and had their boots in the sand with rifles they hadn't even unwrapped yet. They were a little nervous about it.
And yeah, it's funny how the training standards are shifting.
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Originally posted by VOR
Gunslinger, I kid you not: in Mosul in 2003, some AF guys showed up with unissued M16A1 rifles still in the plastic wrappers. I don't know if they were brand spanking new or refurbs, but the point is they got on the plane and had their boots in the sand with rifles they hadn't even unwrapped yet. They were a little nervous about it.
And yeah, it's funny how the training standards are shifting.
Yup I've seen that too with Security Forces augmentees. They put 100 rounds through a weapon that they don't even take with them and the USAF calls them "qualified".
At least there's a great convoy deffense course that they've been teaching the trans. people the last 2 years.
I get to go to the range on the 20th for the first time in 6 years and I'm pretty excited about it.
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It's a good thing, but it's also an unfortunate example of applying lessons learned the hard way. At least the lessons are being learned and applied.
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The Air Force's boot camp has always been difficult. The TI would yell at us all the time. If we wore the wrong dress shoes, we'd get yelled at. If our brief case wasn't completely zipped closed, we'd get yelled at. If our collars weren't adequatly starched, we'd get yelled at. If we showed signs of tiring from that 1 mile march to the obstacle course, we'd get yelled at. It was horrible.
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:D
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Originally posted by Mini D
The Air Force's boot camp has always been difficult. The TI would yell at us all the time. If we wore the wrong dress shoes, we'd get yelled at. If our brief case wasn't completely zipped closed, we'd get yelled at. If our collars weren't adequatly starched, we'd get yelled at. If we showed signs of tiring from that 1 mile march to the obstacle course, we'd get yelled at. It was horrible.
LMAO! :rofl
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Boot Camp:
US Army '68...yelling, PT (physical training), marksmanship, teamwork and reliance upon your buddy emphasized. Length of Basic Training...8 weeks.
Only lost one Recruit during that eight weeks. Service in 'Nam...nearly guaranteed. Service rifle: M-14 (7.62 mm ).
USMC '73...yelling, hazing, PT (including SI...Special Instruction...which is more PT... ) teamwork, teamwork, teamwork...more PT...more SI...more teamwork! Hygene inspection EVERY night wasn't complete without a shot by the DI to your solarplexus! And then...Marksmanship! One shot...one kill! Emphasized! Service Rifle: M-14 (7.62 mm). We started with a Platoon of 96, or so...after three months 62 of us Graduated as U. S. Marines.
During WWII the U.S. Army's, 6th Army ( Pacific Theatre ), trained a group
of men who, during their entire operational time in the Pacific, never suffered a COMBAT fatality ( althought they spent long periods of time behind enemy lines )...but guaranteed 2% fatality in training. Why? Because ALL training was done with LIVE ammunition! Who were these Soldiers? They were the 6th Army's Alamo Scouts. Service rifle: M-1 Garand ( 30-06 ).
My point is...from yesterday to today...politics has let Mommy and Daddy influence whether their Son, or Daughter, should be subjected to Training intense enough to give their children the skills they need to survive in a Combat environment, let alone allow them to be subjected to any kind of humiliation. Remember...today's parents are not the parents who lived through the Depression...and then WWII, Korea, Viet Nam.
By the way...for the AK-47 (7.62 MM) vs M-16A2 (5.56MM) debate...I like the 7.62 MM round in .308 (M-14, AK-47, M-1 Garand)...it has "knock-down "
power! BUT! That 5.56 MM (.223 caliber) is what Militarists have known for centuries ( the smaller the diameter of the round...the more damage it can do), but weren't able to produce until recenent history... a round that instead of taking off your shoulder (as a 7.62 MM can do)...it enters your shoulder and comes out your butt (while following the least line of resistance in your body )...whilst doing a good bit of internal damage.
Boot Camp
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
What's funny is the Air Force JUST this year started issuing M16 Trainer rifles and teaching trainees how to break them down and maintain them. For the first time every single trainee will be required to break one down and put it back together before graduating. This is a GREAT first step. It just seems funny to me that Air Force BMT is getting harder while the Army's is getting easier.
My memory may not be the best thing but I seem to recall, Basic training AF January 1979, and we spent 1 day at the range with the M16, used adapter to fire .22, and then disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled the M16. maybe they dropped it from training in later years?
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I went through basic in '73. We definitely spent time shooting and cleaning the M-16. They did change it later IIRC.
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Originally posted by Airscrew
My memory may not be the best thing but I seem to recall, Basic training AF January 1979, and we spent 1 day at the range with the M16, used adapter to fire .22, and then disassembled, cleaned, and reassembled the M16. maybe they dropped it from training in later years?
I was there in '82 and we only got to see the instructor hold one up. No small arms either.
Sucked!
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Originally posted by Mightytboy
I was there in '82 and we only got to see the instructor hold one up. No small arms either.
Sucked!
There's also talk about every airman being M9 qualified when they switch to the 8 week program next spring.
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AK-101
(http://home.planet.nl/~rouw0062/dcdbase/images/fa/ar/fa_ar_ak100_1.JPG)
Best assault rifle made to date. AK simplicity and reliability and chambered for the 5.56N round.
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Originally posted by Viking
Best assault rifle made to date.
(http://doom3.planet-multiplayer.de/images/content/bfg.jpg)
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Originally posted by Viking
AK-101
(http://home.planet.nl/~rouw0062/dcdbase/images/fa/ar/fa_ar_ak100_1.JPG)
Best assault rifle made to date. AK simplicity and reliability and chambered for the 5.56N round.
hey, i thought you didn't have to clean a AK, what's that cleaning kit doing there?
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It's not an issue item, it's just sold with the rifle to civilians who want "genuine" military accessories. ;)
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Originally posted by john9001
hey, i thought you didn't have to clean a AK, what's that cleaning kit doing there?
Its for the folks that buy it... the drool gets everywere. :D
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lol Nilsen :D I don't think the BFG is classified as an assault rifle. Probably as a WMD!
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Originally posted by Mini D
snip
If we showed signs of tiring from that 1 mile march to the obstacle course, we'd get yelled at. It was horrible.
We were scheduled for one day on the obstacle course. Then, that morning the weather was bad, so they cancelled it. I graduated USAF Basic Training without ever even seeing the obstacle course.
culero (worked harder at Boy Scout camp as a kid)
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Originally posted by lukster
I went through basic in '73. We definitely spent time shooting and cleaning the M-16. They did change it later IIRC.
1971, we spent one day at the range, half classroom half shooting. 60 rounds of .223 through an M16 and they "qualified" everyone, including the damyankee kids who'd never seen a rifle before and were shooting the dirt, over the berm, each others' targets, etc.
Bastards refused to certify me "expert" because they were too cheap to change targets between shooting positions (10 rds prone, 20 sitting, 20 kneeling, 10 offhand). I shot a solid hole through the middle of the target, so they couldn't count 60 holes :)
culero
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Originally posted by BlueJ1
I know. It just sounded funny. I think the Marines call it "smoking".
Never heard of smoking, but I experienced the "Electric chair"; arms out locked straight with an M16 laying across while squatting w/ back against a wall... after a minute or so you're whole body starts to shake, and Deity help you if that M16 touches the deck.
Then theres "Television", laying down resting with elbows in the deck, DI says "change the channel" and you lock 1 arm straight in front as if you're reaching for something, "turn down the volume" gets the other arm. It basically hurts your elbows and arms.
"Island hopping" is running from one dirt pit to another getting worn out by side straddle hops, bends and thrusts, mountain climbers, push ups etc...
"Rock college", dudes who did well on tests got fire watch and took the dummies into the bathroom after lights out for an hour or two of studying.
Oh man and you'll learn ALL about "Mount motherf***er" and "Bi**h ridge", esp as dudes slip, fall and tumble down.
We got hit occasionally, more like a pimp slap than a slug... although one dude said "Bulls**t" to our Senior DI, he got clocked.
If you survive, you get one of these:
(http://members.dslextreme.com/users/fanofhockey/images/1053.jpg)
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Originally posted by Viking
AK-101
(http://home.planet.nl/~rouw0062/dcdbase/images/fa/ar/fa_ar_ak100_1.JPG)
Best assault rifle made to date. AK simplicity and reliability and chambered for the 5.56N round.
It was on the Military, History, or Discovery channel I think. They had several different shows where they we doing things like the top ten fighters, top ten this and that. In one of the shows they did the top ten rifles. In the portion where they compared the Ak and M16 they ruled a draw between them. Each weapon had features that were better than the other, but overall it was a draw. I think it comes down to "shoot what you know."
That is why I own a Colt AR15 A2 Sporter/Match HBAR. I also have a S&W 38 Special Model 15 Combat Masterpiece revolver. They are what I know and what I am an excellent marksman with.
You get right down to it, they will all kill if you are on target.
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Originally posted by Viking
lol Nilsen :D I don't think the BFG is classified as an assault rifle. Probably as a WMD!
If you can assault anyone with it then its an assault rifle in my book.... :)
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OMG, I just fired my .22 mag "Assault rifle" at a raven sitting on a pole 350 metres away.
I missed, but the bugger flew away in panic :D
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Boot camp is but a few weeks. The Army needs the rigorous training far more than does the Air Force. If the Army isn't providing it then the Army is failing it's troops.
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I once gave a recruit a "new" nose for releasing the spring on a live grenade and then not doing anything with it, wouldn't happen now, whole thing has gone to sh$t.
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Originally posted by lasersailor184
We've had this exact same argument before. This debate will get no where and will probably go in a circle 2-3 times before this thread is closed.
So let's keep talking about how big of pansies the army is. :D
LOL, Betcha that's exactly what happens, it's right up there with the "perk the La7.Spit 16" threads...:aok
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Man this thred got HIJACKED fast :O :noid
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[A "touchy-feely" CNN reporter, while interviewing an Army sniper asked, "What do you feel when you shoot a terrorist?"]
The Army sniper shrugged and replied, "Recoil".
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! A keeper for sure. LMAO!
:lol
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That video almost looks bogus.
That goofy looking guy in the combats near the beginning was in danger of tripping over his hair. Since when do recruits have hair? (or their DI's for that matter?)
Something fishy about that whole video.
RTR
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Originally posted by RTR
That video almost looks bogus.
That goofy looking guy in the combats near the beginning was in danger of tripping over his hair. Since when do recruits have hair? (or their DI's for that matter?)
Something fishy about that whole video.
RTR
ummm....the one's with hair.....those are females!
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Keep in mind when I say "I beat my flight today" that is instructorspeak for "they did ALOT of pushups"
:aok
I don't know Gun...I sort of caught that mental sigh at the end of your
statement too :D
I had a good time in USAF basic in 81..and an interesting TI that was
an ex-Marine. He had some very USMC ideas about basic :lol
I agree about easy..heck even I made honor grad :)
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Originally posted by Rino
I don't know Gun...I sort of caught that mental sigh at the end of your
statement too :D
I had a good time in USAF basic in 81..and an interesting TI that was
an ex-Marine. He had some very USMC ideas about basic :lol
I agree about easy..heck even I made honor grad :)
I allways tell my flights "there will be no honor grads, I don't like doing the paperwork. Everyone will be disqualified before they graduate for something or another" Yes I'm a mean bastard sometimes. Right now I'm actually down for 3 weeks. I have to go out and find things to do during the daytime or go help a buddy out and give a fresh voice to his flight.
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I went through OSUT (single unit training) at Fort Knox in 1985, which was a combined basic/AIT course that ran 14 weeks. It was Armored Reconnaissance (19D) combat arms training, with no real AIT phase like you have with support MOSs. My last 4 weeks were actually as tough as the first 4 weeks (with an "odd" two week slack off in the middle). The Drills still inflicted some "physical adjustments" though it was kept low key and out of sight since it was a no-no even then. I then spent 6 years as a military instructor (CTT and 19D skill set) in the Reserves alongside our unit DIs and conducted both active component training (at Ft. Knox and Ft. Hood) and reserve component retraining at Ft. McCoy.
An odd setup, since when not with trainees the lowest ranking people tended to be E3/4s and a formation for the squadron was about the size of a company.
The training was tough, not 1940s-1960s tough, but mentally and physically demanding, with a lot of fairly complicated skills to be passed along at the time. Smoking was discouraged greatly, dissent was not tolerated, professionalism ruled -- it was a tough, slick almost scientific process when I was on the receiving end and the administering end. As a reservist, there were only a very few units considered mission ready for an active army mission, and my squadron was one of them. Standards were upheld at both the training and trainee end. People were washed out, even with manpower demands.
However, apparently things have changed with the co-ed force, the overt PC and the need to meet numbers with an increasingly unpopular war, etc.
Here's a piece from Hackworth documenting the change in 2000 (I’ve posted it before), and I can only imagine it's gotten worse. I would hope the combat arms are still standing fairly firm on standards, but I have a bad feeling about that… Hackworth’s philosophy:
I feel the flashback coming-- the day I got off the train at Fort Knox ("Come here, dogface. Your bellybutton is mine.”). I see myself a few days later trotting around the parade ground, holding the 60-pound base-plate of a 81mm mortar over my head, screaming "I'M a BIG bellybutton BIRD" at the top of my voice, shouting and staggering until my arms finally give out, the steel plate misses my head by a hair, and I'm lying with my nose in the mud wondering if I'll ever get out of Basic alive.
The point being, of course, that the very ruthlessness of the drill hardened me for something one hell of a lot more brutal.
Combat.
"That's not our mission," Lt. Col. Henry says. The rough stuff's for the shock troops training at Benning. "Here we're inoculating them for the prospect of maybe having a fight, hanging in there until the cavalry or infantry arrives to save the day."
Tough training for the line units, marshmallows for the rear? Talk about denial. In modern warfare, there is no front. Command and control nodes, airfields, supply dumps, logistics units, transport, the hospital, everything's fair game. If anything, in guerrilla warfare and terrorist actions, those targets are even more likely to be hit. A young sergeant I know put it this way: 'That U.S. Army name tag on your chest is the biggest bull's-eye in the world. These young soldiers are going to be in Korea. They're going to be in Bosnia. They are really exposed, man. When our cooks and clerks ran convoys of deuces and hummers through the streets of Mogadishu, do you think the Somalis were not going to shoot at them because they were 'noncombatants'' http://www.hackworth.com/article04032002c.html
Charon
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While doing morning inspection at Great Lakes, camp Porter in summer of 72. I noticed a piece of toilet paper stuck to a boots face in an obvious attempt to stop the bleeding from a small shaving cut. Getting into my normal nose to nose stance with the maggot. Exhaling stale beer belches into his face, I "not so gently" asked him what that s*it was on his face? Sir" thats blood from a shaving cut "sir. I replied "Did I give you permission to bleed"? He said "Sir No Sir". I said "then quit and get down and give me 20".