Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Charge on November 07, 2006, 01:58:37 PM
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Just in case some of you do not read wishlist.
As I have claimed earlier all the JU88s delivered to Finland had a MG-FF/M delivered with them, and that it was considered a standard armament option. I just received some more information of the topic.
The cannon could be mounted in the lower part of the nose and it replaced the level bombing sight. The shells ejected into a pouch under the gun. The gun had two modes: if it was locked in place the pilot could fire it from control column and aim it through his reflector sight(dive bombing sight Stuvi5). The bombardier could release the gun and aim and fire it manually. The movemen archs where: up 5deg, sides 45deg, down 40deg. It had either a 60 round mag (type T 60-FF) or a 90 round mag (type T 90-FF).
The translation is originally in Finnish from this source: Ju 88 A-4, Flugzeug-Handbuch, Teil 12 A, Schüsswaffenanlage, (März 1943)
It would be sweet to have it as I'd like to use the plane in its second major role which was "stuka" and while being down low to shoot squirrels and wabbits with it.
But it prolly would be too time consuming to model it and the use would be scarce at best...
Consider this as FYI post. :)
-C+
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The MGFF is AH is the weakest cannon in the game - even weaker then the Type 99 MK 1 (A6M2). I can't see how it would be any more useful then the weak forward firing MG.
I doubt you could kill a jeep or M3 with it.
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Well, it is M variant after all which means it shoots the Minengeschoss ammo with muzzle velocity nearly 700m/s which is only slightly less than that of 151/20. So the gun would practically be almost as effective as any 20mm in a Bf109. Tony's page rates the MG-FF/M power to 14 and single 7.9mm to 1. So I'd say there is a big difference.
-C+
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I'd agree with your IRL comparison of the 20mm with M ammo vs the 7.92, but we'd end up with the "averaged" version of the FF here.
Still, this would be a minor change that might get more people using the JU88. I'd like to see it since I'm one of the few that actually ups JU88s from time to time. IMHO tweaks that get more players to try out some of other rides aren't a bad idea in general.
EagleDNY
$.02
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Originally posted by Charge
Well, it is M variant after all which means it shoots the Minengeschoss ammo with muzzle velocity nearly 700m/s which is only slightly less than that of 151/20. So the gun would practically be almost as effective as any 20mm in a Bf109. Tony's page rates the MG-FF/M power to 14 and single 7.9mm to 1. So I'd say there is a big difference.
-C+
Not in AH - I know very well how the M'geschoss should mean greater destructive HE power (see my post in the thread linked below). Damage values in AH are more dependent upon m/v and impact velocity (speed +range). Low velocity rounds like the MGFF in AH are very weak. There are no M'geschoss rounds in AH as such, for example, Type 99 Mk1 in AH (as tested by others) is a very similar 'gun' to the MGFF/M yet it is slightly more lethal the the MGFF in AH.
When speaking of 3cm HT wrote:
How much damage depends on range/speed and where hit on the plane.
in this thread:
30mm duds (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=179895&highlight=damage)
With HE rounds speed and range are more of a concern with hit probability not damage probability since all the the HE round needs to do is penetrate the thin skin.
In other games like FB the MGFF is a reasonably lethal round.
My point in my first post is that in AH MGFF are so weak that it wouldn't mean much taking the MGFF over the already modeled light MG.
fyi - both the Bf 109E-4 and Bf 110C-4/b in AH should have the MGFF/M gun and capable of carrying M'geschoss. Test their lethality compared to the Mg151/2cm and Hizooka (hispano) and its clear there's no M'geschoss modeled.
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Hi,
the main advantage in AH would be: WE WOULD BE ABLE TO DEACK A BASE WITH A Ju88-A! :aok
Imho thats a significant different, iam all for it!
Greetings,
Knegel
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Bruno, I think you're exaggerating a bit (more than a bit in fact). According to scJazz who did some testing on guns in AH he came up with these results:
20mm Hispano Mk II 4.03
20mm MG 151/20 3.55
20mm MG-FF 3.25
So you see that that the MG-FF is more than 75% as effective as the Hizooka. I don't think that's unreasonable at all and I think the MG-FF is quite effective at close range. At least far more effective than the two MG-17's on the Emil.
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Jazz shot at ground targets in his tests.
HT has said:
Btw: Destructive power on buildings and airplanes, will not give you the same values in AH.
HiTech
If you bothered to read a few threads down I posted the above.
We are not talking about damage values verses ground targets / structures.
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Sure, and I did read your post, but unless Hitech or someone else says differently I believe that the relative power of the guns are similar.
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What 'you believe' has nothing to do with the discussion..
I quoted HT above, twice... damage values as they relate to aircraft:
How much damage depends on range/speed and where hit on the plane.
By range and speed he means the range of the target and the impact velocity of the round. Damage values will vary with range. As I stated with a HE round m/v and impact velocity are secondary to the damage caused be the HE itself.
That is completely different as to how damage values verse objects (ground targets) are calculated, just as HT said:
Btw: Destructive power on buildings and airplanes, will not give you the same values in AH.
HiTech
Unless you have something relevant to post on the above there' no need to continue. The MGFF is the weakest cannon in the game.
Viking must be GScholz...
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Don't be such an bellybutton Bruno. I will comment on whatever I like and you'd just have to accept that or put me on ignore. I don't care either way because you seem like just a bitter luftwhiner to me, and I sincerely doubt you bring anything positive to this bbs.
Yes the MG-FF is the weakest cannon in the game and it should be, but I think it is still 75% as effective as the Hispano in dealing damage at close range.
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blah blah blah.. I brought facts, you brought 'I believe...'.
You claimed I exaggerated by saying the MGFF was the weakest cannon in the game now you admit it.
The British tested the MGFF M'geschoss and found it 'about equal to the Hispano' not 75% less lethal. Get Tony William's book (or search fro post by Hohun on this forum). There's nothing real about how HTC models ammo or belting in AH. Damage is primarily a function of range/speed as HT said.
Your '75% BS' (now you add 'at close range' ) is only relevant to how the MGFF and Hispano compare against ground structures and has nothing to with air-to-air.
As for not adding anything to this BBS all anyone has to do is look at your posts here and see how worthless both you and your contributions are.
Right GScholz..?
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The mgeschoss might have been right about the lethality of the hispano, but it was only every 5th round on the belt, if I recall. HTC averages the power of all rounds so that every round has the same power. They average the entire belt, basically. While the mgeschoss was on par with hispanos, the standard HE rounds were weaker.
For the way AH has it modeled, it's not so much weaker that I can't get kills. The problem is ballistics for me, not lethality (actually landing hits). If I can land hits, enemy planes go doen.
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Seems I was right Bruno, you are just a bitter luftwhiner. Say hello to cav58d for me.
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Originally posted by Krusty
The mgeschoss might have been right about the lethality of the hispano, but it was only every 5th round on the belt, if I recall. HTC averages the power of all rounds so that every round has the same power. They average the entire belt, basically. While the mgeschoss was on par with hispanos, the standard HE rounds were weaker.
For the way AH has it modeled, it's not so much weaker that I can't get kills. The problem is ballistics for me, not lethality (actually landing hits). If I can land hits, enemy planes go doen.
There's no M'geshoss modeled in AH. Damage is a product of range/speed. HTC may average the m/v / impact velocity for various of rounds types (these don't differ in the extreme) for a particular weapon.
The hispano is as lethal as it is due to its higher velocities. You can hit easier with due to its flatter trajectory. The MGFF is weak due to its slower velocites. Its harder to hit with for the very same reason.
Anything else you read into it is meaningless.
LW ammo belts varied with the unit /pilot and to claim every 5 or every three is just speculation. There's is no M'geschoss in AH.
wiking,
blah, blah, blah...
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Originally posted by Bruno
The MGFF is AH is the weakest cannon in the game - even weaker then the Type 99 MK 1 (A6M2). I can't see how it would be any more useful then the weak forward firing MG.
I doubt you could kill a jeep or M3 with it.
To me this realy sounds like luftwhining.
Today i took a 109E and found the MGFF to be very effective. I mainly fly the FW190A8 or 109G6 and found it more easy to get a kill than with a 109G6. Of course the poor muzzvel dont allow easy long distance kills while a turnfight, but thats pretty ok.
Nevertheless iam sure it would be a BIG improvement while groundattacks!! 3 x Ju88´s = 3 x MGFF! ;)
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Even though it is only two posts down, seems appropriate to link this into this discussion.
Hitech on ammo modeling (http://www.flyaceshigh.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=191583)
Hitech must be using something for his "hybrid of a mixed belt," and I wouldn't be surprised if "one in five" was posted somewhere before.
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Originally posted by E25280
Even though it is only two posts down, seems appropriate to link this into this discussion.
Hitech on ammo modeling (http://www.flyaceshigh.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=191583)
Hitech must be using something for his "hybrid of a mixed belt," and I wouldn't be surprised if "one in five" was posted somewhere before.
HT is talking about the fact that a in real life a belt maybe 2 x HE, 1 AP, 1 API. All of those have different m/v, different velocities over range, as well as pentration values. This is real data he can average over a belt in AH. With rounds whose lethality is mostly contained in their HE content (chemical energy) its much more harder to come up with a solid 'damage value' for a game like this. He's not averaging a known value for the M'geschoss round over the entire belt. There is no M'geshoss.
Whatever the reason the MGFF is the weakest cannon in the game (that's not 'luftwhining' Knegel, that's fact).
I mainly fly the FW190A8 or 109G6 and found it more easy to get a kill than with a 109G6.
The G-6 has an MG151/2cm and its just as effective as any other MG151/2cm in AH. Its certainly more lethal then an MGFF. The reason the the G-6 is more 'difficult' to get kills with for you is the planes it is matched up against in the mid-war verses the E-4 in the early. That has nothing to do with ammo lethality.
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I was shooting down 2 F4U-4´s, 1 x 109K, 1 x P51D, 1 x SpitIXc and N1k´s yesterday.
I was very content with the MGFF.
Btw, this isnt a lethality theatre, here someone did offer wish regarding the Ju88 front weapon! Your comment that a MGFF dont would bring much simply is absolut nonsens.
All cannons in AH are powerfull enough to get a fast kill, the different is mainly caused by the different hitprobability due to a different muzzvel and the resulting trajectory.
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The MGFF is the weakest in the game. Nothing you or that other guy posted disproves that. For ground attack or de-acking a field a Ju-88 is and would be better off using its SC 50s rather then strafing with 1 or 3 MGFF. Having a MGFF in the nose of a Ju-88 or a 7.9 mm gun won't make the Ju-88 any more usefull then it is now.
In AH it takes 100lbs of ordnance to destroy 1 ack gun in AH. It takes 857 cannon rounds to kill a fighter hanger (3000lbs default). Thats 3.5 lbs per round. To kill a single ack gun would take 29 rounds. Go off line and test the E-4 verses a jeep or M3 / M16 etc... Its easier to kill those with the SC 50s as well. Adding the MGFF to the Ju-88 would make no difference at all.
Nothing in your little anecdote about 'I once killed a... with MGFF' changes any of that. I shot down 3 Lancaster's with breda 12.7s in a .202. That doesn't change the fact that the breda in AH is significantly less lethal then the US .50 cal or LW 13mm in AH. In AH lethality is largely based on range/speed. The MGFF is still the weakest cannon in the game and adding one to the Ju-88 would make no difference at all.
Making accussations of 'luftwhining' and/or building ridiculous strawmam arguments doesn't change anything I have written. This isn't the first post to request the MGFF for the Ju-88, and it won't be the last. It hasn't been added yet and I don't imagine it will get added any time soon.
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Bruno, your conclusion is wrong. It only has ever taken a single cannon round right next to any ack gun to kill it. Just 1 round. I think you can take out ack guns with the weakest of rockets and the weakest of bombs, yes, but that doesn't mean you "need" that much to kill them. They go down with much less, we just lack smaller ord to test the limits with.
EDIT: As for Ju88s: I'd rather have the C or the G with cannon, and leave the A-4 as-is.
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Krusty an ack gun requires 100lbs of ordnance (any type) to kill:
Right from the HTC website:
Strategy Guide: Ground Target Values (http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/map.html#targets)
It required 100lbs since I played the AH1 betas,
A Fighter Hangar requires 3000lbs of ordnance (default) to kill. Both Jazz and the netaces site show how many rounds to kill ground objects:
Relative round power (http://www.netaces.org/ahweapons/roundpwr.html)
It took 857 MGFF rounds to kill a Fighter Hangar. (3000/857 = 3.5 then 100/3.5 = 29)
Do you even know the ordnance value of all the AH rocket types?
The amount of damage caused by cannon and mg rounds is different verses ground targets and aircraft. No matter at what range you hit a ground object at the damage value is the same. An MGFF hitting a hangar at 600 yards is the same as hitting it at 1000 yards. Completely different then range/speed values in regards to damage against aircraft.
You just don't know wtf you are talking about as usual. Do you just make things up?
There's no reason for this thread to go on. I said the MGFF is the weakest in the game and a single nose fired MGFF in the Ju-88A-4 wouldn't make it any more useful then it is now. Unless any of you can make an argument based on what I said then just just let the thread die.
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fyi: If you want o argue over MGFF then get HTC to add the 90 round drum to the A-5. It fit into the same space as the 60 round drum. Not that I fly the A-5 with MGFF - they are just as useless in the A-5 as they would be in the Ju-88. 2 x MG151/2cm is fine for all the 190s - including the A-8.
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Hey Bruno, when was the last time you flew AH? Just curious, because that info is wrong on 100lbs. It takes 1 cannon round. It's only ever take that much. You might fire a short burst of 3-5 to get the "1" to land on target, but it only takes the one then "Poof!" "SYSTEM: Soft Auto Gun Destroyed"
Ask anybody that's deacked a field. I don't think the numbers on that page have been updates since AH1 went public. Look at the amount required for hangars, and for the HQ. 250lbs for a barracks? Well I know an la7 can strafe them down with 100 20mm rounds, that's nowhere near 250lbs.
So those numbers don't apply anymore
As for the weakness of the MGFF, yes we all know they're the worst of the 20mm. But they are still 20mm. I think that was the original point. :aok
EDIT: Oh, P.S. about the 190A5: I know! Ugh! I wish we had the 90-round drums. I requested it a long time ago (years ago, I think) but alas, no response.
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I have more time in AH then you - by far both AH1 and AH2. An ack gun is default 100lbs. You can check the setting yourself.
Krusty you don't know what you are talking about - yet again...
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WOW
Just tried 109e fired 2 count em 2 rounds into a field gun. Guess what ... gun went poof. So by your figures Bruno thats 50lbs per round.
NERF THE MGFF way over modeled at 50lbs per round.
Just admit you made a mistake already sheesh.
Bronk
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Bruno, dude... I've been playing as long as you have. Okay? I started when AH1 came out of beta. So quit saying "you don't know what you're talking about" when in fact 100% of every player in any arena will tell you the default ack guns on any field go down with a single cannon round. I don't care what the chart tells ya, 1 cannon round does not nearly equal 100 lbs. The ack guns go down with 1 cannon round, therefore they take less than 100lbs to go down.
If you don't believe me try it offline. I know you've done it before. Why you're arguing this is beyond me. Why you start flinging insults is further beyond me. It's a fact, undeniable, that in this game it only takes 1 cannon round to kill an ack gun. Anybody who's done it knows this. You've done it (having flown for so long, right?) so therefore YOU know this. You KNOW this but you still argue against it. It makes no logical sense.
The chart is wrong.
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I will check it when I get home but make sure your object settings are set to arena default which is based on 1000lbs...
You set it to what ever you want - even so ack dies to the chute .45...
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Well i tried it online next excuse..
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bruno
I will check it when I get home but make sure your object settings are set to arena default which is based on 1000lbs...
You set it to what ever you want - even so ack dies to the chute .45...
Any Main arena online - one cannon round inside the circle kills the ack. I usually fire 4-5 to make sure I hit it. *Poof* every time. No where near your 29 rounds.
Colt .45 will kill a soft gun or puffy ack with 10 direct hits. Never "lived" long enough close to an auto-ack to test them.
Sorry, Bruno, you are just wrong on this one.
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Originally posted by E25280
Any Main arena online - one cannon round inside the circle kills the ack. I usually fire 4-5 to make sure I hit it. *Poof* every time. No where near your 29 rounds.
Colt .45 will kill a soft gun or puffy ack with 10 direct hits. Never "lived" long enough close to an auto-ack to test them.
Sorry, Bruno, you are just wrong on this one.
Don't apologize - I don't get home until about 11 to check but if its changed then I am wrong about current ack hardness.
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Hi,
1-2 cannon rounds is enough for a AAA, looks like YOU dont know what you are talking about. You maybe should play more instead of whining.
I didnt read any comment here that state that the MGFF isnt the most weak gun in AH, but this dont matter at all in this contex, therefor i dont know why you keep to argue.
Your arguments against the 20mm in the Ju88 would fit to ALL 20mms in AH, but you seems to be so much into Luftwhining that you dont see that.
EVERY cannon in AH can easy kill a AAA and also M3´s and M16´s. If you cant do it, you should train a bit more.
With the current AAA behaviour(they rarely hit as long as you fly strait), it would be stupid to load 50kg bombs, if you have cannons to destroy the AAA´s fast. Better load some more big bombs to get the hangers or drop 50kg to bunkers etc.
With the B26 and its .50cals iam able to deack a base, a movable front 20mm for sure would make this task very easy. It also would be helpfull to destroy some buildings in a Town.
Greetings,
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The fact that the ack hardness is so weak that just about any gun can kill it doesn't make the MGFF in the Ju-88 any more useful. It's been asked for before and it hasn't been added yet.
The B-26s could kill ack when it was set to 100lbs. I don't 'kill ack' or do any base rape stuff, its boring...
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Once again you be wrong!!
Its almost impossible to deack a base with a single 7,6mm or .30cal from a plane!!
The different between MGFF and MG17 would be extreme!!
Also while taking down buildings(not unimportant!! How often only some buildings are left after a bombrun??
That it was asked before is fine, and?? Thats, no argument against a 20mm in favour for a smal MG.
You should be a bit more carefully with your "you dont know what you are talking about" commnets, its a trap where you can stumble fast.
btw, your last sentence i dont understand.
Greetings,
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Request for HTC: give the thread starter option to lock his own thread.
Guys, I don't want an interesting thread turn into a sht tossing contest.
-C+
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Seems to me that getting rid of Bruno would be a much simpler fix.
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Once again you be wrong!!
Colt .45 will kill a soft gun or puffy ack with 10 direct hits.
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Originally posted by Bruno
You just don't know wtf you are talking about as usual. Do you just make things up?
LOL, I guess he did know what he was talking about.
shamus
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Originally posted by Shamus
LOL, I guess he did know what he was talking about.
shamus
Sure did... :p
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Originally posted by Knegel
Once again you be wrong!!
Its almost impossible to deack a base with a single 7,6mm or .30cal from a plane!!
Originally posted by Bruno
quote:
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Once again you be wrong!!
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quote:
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Colt .45 will kill a soft gun or puffy ack with 10 direct hits.
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Knegel is not entirely incorrect. The word I underlined in the last quote is key.
Cannon have a small area of effect. That is what makes them extremely effective against the field ack. A cannon hit inside the gray circle kills it.
Any MG ammunition needs to directly hit the gun to have any effect, and multiple shots are required to kill it. Shots simply landing inside the circle have no effect at all.
The dust splash effect on any miss, plus the gun-shake effect, makes it very difficult to correct your fire sufficiently to hit such a small target from a moving aircraft. Add convergence issues on most aircraft (granted, not a problem with the single gun JU-88) and closing speeds of 2-300mph, and deacking with MG fire is a frustrating task to say the least.
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From the 2.09 readme:
Cannon rounds exploding next to ack guns were detecting closer than they actually hit.
Sooooo . . . . this seems relevant to the discussion. It will be interesting to see how much this ends up affecting deacking fields. Seems just inside the circle may not be good enough anymore -- or perhaps more cannon rounds will be required from now on (inside circle used to register as direct hits, perhaps?).