Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Ack-Ack on November 07, 2006, 08:29:00 PM

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: Ack-Ack on November 07, 2006, 08:29:00 PM

Are the types of rounds used by the various sided actually modeled in the game?  For example is the 'De Wilde' .303 caliber rounds modeled or does AH use a generic .303 round?


ack-ack

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: EagleDNY on November 07, 2006, 10:23:39 PM

No, from what I understand the damage modeling is not specific to each invididual round spat from the gun.  If it were, the MG-151 20mms on the LW rides would be a lot more lethal than they are now due to the inclusion of the minengeschoss (sp?) ammo which had more explosive per round than conventional 20mm cannon rounds.

For game purposes, I suspect they have to figure a base damage amount for each gun, then multiply out muzzle velocity, range and any explosive in the round to get a final damage number that is applied to whatever part of the aircraft that gets hit.

Seems that way to me anyway...

EagleDNY
$.02

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: Ack-Ack on November 07, 2006, 11:17:06 PM

Thanks...have always wondered and now I know.



ack-ack

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: Easyscor on November 08, 2006, 02:39:44 AM

Tony Williams is the guru here and publishes a magazine about the subject. I'm under the impression the ammo is modeled to some extent but that it's incomplete. I could easily be mistaken.

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: Viking on November 08, 2006, 03:38:35 AM

If I remember correctly AH doesn't model each single round in a particular belt setup. Rather each round in the game is a hybrid round reflecting the average damage and penetration of the various rounds in the ammo belt.

IMHO this is a mixed blessing. On one hand each round does consistent damage and you don't get the problems of the different ballistic properties of different rounds. On the other hand you don't get the full benefit of certain belting options like mixing HE rounds with AP rounds. The hybrid round will not penetrate as well as the true AP round, nor is it as destructive as the HE round. This is perhaps most noticeable in the German cannons, where the mine shells (which have no penetrating ability whatsoever) completely nerf the penetration of the hybrid round, making the German guns very inefficient against vehicles.

Edit: If indeed i am remembering correctly.

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: Murdr on November 11, 2006, 12:32:44 PM

I believe it is more a matter of gun type, and what kind of round you would expect in a particular gun model.  This might shed some light though.

Gun Type                Dam in #
.303 Browning AC 0.296
.303 Browning GV 0.3125
7.6mm ShKAS 0.296
7.7mm Breda - SAFAT 0.28
7.7mm Type 97 0.296
7mm MG 17 0.3
.50 M2 AC 1.17
.50 M2 GV 1.25
12.7mm Breda - SAFAT 0.95
12.7mm Ho-103 0.998
12.7mm UBS 1.15
13mm MG 131 0.92
20mm B-20 3.47
20mm Hispano Mk II 4.03
20mm Hispano Mk V 3.94
20mm Ho-5 3.36
20mm M2 AC 4.03
20mm MG 151/20 3.55
20mm MG-FF 3.25
20mm ShVAK 3.47
20mm Type 99 Mk 1 3.42
20mm Type 99 Mk 2 3.85
23mm VYa 5.62
30mm Mk 108 11.63
37mm NS37 16.67
40mm Vickers S 13.89 *
37mm PT Boat            13.2
40mm PT Boat            15.6
37mm HE Ostwind 15.15 *
37mm AP 15.6  #1
37mm HE 31.2  #1
75mm AP 78.1  #1
75mm HE       156.2  #1
88mm AP       117.1  #1
88mm HE       234.3  #1
3.5" Rocket       140.0  #1
4.5" Rocket        93.0  #1
5" Rocket       156.0  #1
RS132       125.0  #1
RS82        93.0  #1
WGr21       200.0  #1
Shore Battery          250 - 500 #2
Cruiser Gun            250 - 500  #2



* The Vickers S and 37mm HE Ostwind are the only weapons I
am not 100% certain of the full series of tests had very
inequal results. The value shown is the maximum damage
inflicted per round. I suspect that the variance is caused
by a bug in the burst dispersion code.
#1 Testing for the GV main guns and rockets was different.
I fired 1 round into a hanger and constantly tweaked the
hanger's damage resistence until I found the maximum single
round damage.
#2 The Main Guns on the Cruisers fire 3 shells at a time
each shell does 250lbs to 500lbs of damage. If all 3 hit then the
target just took 750lbs to 1500lbs of damage. The damage is scaled by range 250lbs at maximum range, 500lbs at point blank, 390lbs at 6400 yards.

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: Guppy35 on November 12, 2006, 12:14:57 AM

The ammo I hear reference to most is the well known  "Rubber Bullet".  Not sure on who the manufacturer is though :)

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: hitech on November 12, 2006, 07:49:14 AM

Each ammo type & gun pair are specifically modeled. Each bullet fired does it's own independent damage.

For instance all 50cals are not exactly the same, there are different guns (long barrel & short barrel) that use the same ammo. But we have different modeling for each because of there different muzzle velocities.  

The issue EagleDNY is referring to has nothing to do with the damage model. At this time we have no way to launch different ammo types out of the same gun. I.E. a gun can only be loaded with 1 ammo type. To do differently would require some changes to the bullet launch system to keep track of what type of bullet needs to be fired next, along with a system to describe what ammo type to load in each gun.

In light of this some ammo types are a hybrid of a mixed belt.

HiTech

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: mussie on November 12, 2006, 08:59:52 AM

Quote

Originally posted by hitech

The issue EagleDNY is referring to has nothing to do with the damage model. At this time we have no way to launch different ammo types out of the same gun. I.E. a gun can only be loaded with 1 ammo type. To do differently would require some changes to the bullet launch system to keep track of what type of bullet needs to be fired next, along with a system to describe what ammo type to load in each gun.

In light of this some ammo types are a hybrid of a mixed belt.

HiTech

Hey Hitech cant you just code it so that:
- The plane has two guns (for a two ammo type situatuion),
- each with its own ammo
- both in the same virtual location,
- firing at half the rate of round per minute for the gun
- have a delay on the second gun so that it fires out of phase with the first....?

Ten Round Per Second
one gun two guns
________________________________
#1 AP/HE Hybrid #1AP
#1 AP/HE Hybrid #2HE
#1 AP/HE Hybrid #1AP
#1 AP/HE Hybrid #2HE
#1 AP/HE Hybrid #1AP
#1 AP/HE Hybrid #2HE
#1 AP/HE Hybrid #1AP
#1 AP/HE Hybrid #2HE
#1 AP/HE Hybrid #1AP
#1 AP/HE Hybrid #2HE

Hmm now that I wrote all that it is probably harder than the first option of recoding the individual gun.....

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: hitech on November 12, 2006, 09:13:46 AM

Not really mussie, Problems arise keeping the fire rates in sync. The mixed ammo load is sorta on the to do list, but the net effect of the change, all though fairly cool,would be small. Hence it is not very high on the list.

My game plan on implementation, is make  a strip of 10 bullets be customizable by players in the hanger.

HiTech

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: mussie on November 12, 2006, 09:24:13 AM

CC on that HT

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
Each ammo type & gun pair are specifically modeled. Each bullet fired does it's own independent damage.

HiTech

I was just thinking about howmany rounds the PC has got to track in the average furball...

Hurri-1 8x.303 @ 600rpm (IIRC)

That would be 80 rounds a second...

So we are looking at 160 rounds in the average 2 second burst

Would be cool to be able to take a snap shot of a furball and highlight all the rounds in the air at that instant.....

I wonder how many virtual rounds get fired in a tour... and how many tonns of ord get dropped......

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: mussie on November 12, 2006, 09:27:07 AM

Quote

Originally posted by hitech

My game plan on implementation, is make  a strip of 10 bullets be customizable by players in the hanger.

HiTech

Man now that would be DAM COOL

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: JAWS2003 on November 12, 2006, 10:55:46 AM

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
Not really mussie, Problems arise keeping the fire rates in sync. The mixed ammo load is sorta on the to do list, but the net effect of the change, all though fairly cool,would be small. Hence it is not very high on the list.

My game plan on implementation, is make  a strip of 10 bullets be customizable by players in the hanger.

HiTech

Mine
Mine
Mine
Mine
Incendiary tracer
Mine
Mine
Mine
Mine
Incendiary tracer

 MG151/20 FTW:eek::aok

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: Tony Williams on November 12, 2006, 08:57:28 PM

The problem with modelling the German mixed ammo belts was that the mixture varied depending on the circumstances. The typical 20mm loadout for fighters seems to have been 40% M-Geschoss, 40% HEI-T and 20% APHE or API.

The RAF's .303s did not generally use mixed belts when installed in fighters - each gun was loaded with one type of ammo.

From THIS (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/BoB.htm):

"The 'De Wilde' bullets were first issued in June 1940 and tested operationally in the air battles over Dunkirk. Their improved effectiveness, coupled with the fact that the flash on impact indicated that the shooting was on target, was much appreciated by the fighter pilots. It was at first in short supply, and the initial RAF fighter loading was three guns loaded with ball, two with AP, two with Mk IV incendiary tracer and one with Mk VI incendiary. Another source for the Battle of Britain armament gives four guns with ball, two with AP and two with incendiaries (presumably Mk VI) with four of the last 25 rounds being tracer (presumably Mk IV incendiary/tracer) to tell the pilot he was running out of ammunition. It is not clear why ball was used at all; presumably there was a shortage of the more effective loadings. (By 1942 the standard loading for fixed .303s was half loaded with AP and half with incendiary.)"

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: Bruno on November 13, 2006, 09:35:20 AM

Quote

Originally posted by JAWS2003
Mine
Mine
Mine
Mine
Incendiary tracer
Mine
Mine
Mine
Mine
Incendiary tracer

 MG151/20 FTW:eek::aok

Target Tobruk belting...

Title: small belt of ammo
Post by: splitatom on November 13, 2006, 06:56:00 PM

the .50 cal would have so many tipes it would take forever to get all the kinds of rounds there are :O :)

Title: Re: small belt of ammo
Post by: Tony Williams on November 15, 2006, 10:40:52 AM

Quote

Originally posted by splitatom
the .50 cal would have so many tipes it would take forever to get all the kinds of rounds there are :O :)

Not really. Initially there were three types in fighters -  AP, incendiary and tracer - but later this became API and tracer, and in some cases just API.

Bomber armament showed a bit more variety, with the "headlight" tracer having a brief outing.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: EagleDNY on November 15, 2006, 05:18:09 PM

Quote

Originally posted by hitech
Each ammo type & gun pair are specifically modeled. Each bullet fired does it's own independent damage.

The issue EagleDNY is referring to has nothing to do with the damage model. At this time we have no way to launch different ammo types out of the same gun. I.E. a gun can only be loaded with 1 ammo type. To do differently would require some changes to the bullet launch system to keep track of what type of bullet needs to be fired next, along with a system to describe what ammo type to load in each gun.

In light of this some ammo types are a hybrid of a mixed belt.

HiTech

Hey HT,

  Don't get me wrong - I don't think that this is a bad way to do the damage modeling.  It's clean, simple, and it works - always a good thing in software development ;)  If you implement a customizable ammo belt, I'll definitely play with it to figure the best loadout for my mission, but I'm not going to sweat about it.

  I'll admit it - I think the LW cannons get shorted a bit in your model, but not because of the damage per round.  When I did the ROF tests on various cannons, the data was showing me that the LW cannons consistently fired at the low end of their reported ROF (MG151 was 700 vs 750), and the Hispano IIs were firing about 50 rpm higher (650 vs 600), and the Hispano V was spot on ROF 750.  

  If you want to tweak, I'd suggest knocking the Hispano IIs ROF back to 600, and up the MG-151s to the 750.  It's a simple tweak that should make the LW rides a bit more lethal on the snapshot, and give them a bit better chance vs bombers.  The Spit cannon clip is short, so I wouldn't mind having the extra few seconds firing time when I'm tooling around in my Seafire.

My $.02 worth...

EagleDNY

Title: anyone know if specific ammo type is used in AH?
Post by: Tony Williams on November 15, 2006, 08:18:47 PM

The average RoF in RL for the MG 151 was probably closer to 700 than 750 rpm (except for the synch guns in the Fw 190, of course, which were at most 650).

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)

Title: ROF
Post by: EagleDNY on November 16, 2006, 06:25:26 PM

Hey Tony,

  The table on your site lists RPS as 12 for the MG-151 (720 RPM) and 10 for the Hispano II (600 RPM) - that tweak alone would help.  Some of us still like to fly the 109F, and when you've only got 1 cannon, every little bit helps.

EagleDNY
$.02

Title: Re: ROF
Post by: Tony Williams on November 18, 2006, 03:10:00 AM

Quote

Originally posted by EagleDNY
Hey Tony,

  The table on your site lists RPS as 12 for the MG-151 (720 RPM) and 10 for the Hispano II (600 RPM) - that tweak alone would help.  Some of us still like to fly the 109F, and when you've only got 1 cannon, every little bit helps.

Yes, that's about as close as you're likely to get. These figures were only averages. For instance, the Hispano's RoF varied from 550 to 650 rpm depending on the circumstances, the condition of the gun, the ammo, etc.

Tony Williams: Military gun and ammunition website (http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk) and discussion forum (http://forums.delphiforums.com/autogun/messages/)