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Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: df54 on November 08, 2006, 06:00:20 PM

Title: hartman escape
Post by: df54 on November 08, 2006, 06:00:20 PM: Is anyone familiar with the so called "Hartman Escape" Hartman claims
(i read somewhere) it saved his beehind many times I'd love for some one
to make a training film of it I think it's some kind of neg g roll.
Title: hartman escape
Post by: dhaus on November 08, 2006, 07:18:40 PM: Don't know about that, but I remember someone (Bader or Johnson, maybe) describing a move they called the "Luftwaffe Stomp" which sounded a lot like a half roll into a split S. The spits held their E so well, they couldn't follow it against the 109s.
Title: hartman escape
Post by: humble on November 08, 2006, 10:02:27 PM: nothing but a negative G dive...basicall he said you cant shoot when your floating up against your harness with blood rudhing to your head....guess you cant:)
Title: hartman escape
Post by: Creton on November 09, 2006, 02:46:18 AM: I have a film of it.I will post it tomorrow
Title: hartman escape
Post by: SAS_KID on November 09, 2006, 05:45:31 PM: He had two types of turning evasives that got him out of someone's guns. 1 was if the enemy was diving on him he would go into a hard climbing turn ACROSS the planes guns. Then if they person was coming from low or level he would go into a hard descending turn and when the person pulled for the shot go NEG G and dive away.
Title: hartman escape
Post by: Creton on November 09, 2006, 07:00:32 PM: I was dueling "PARIN" ,who I feel is very accomplished in a 109.He was explaining the "Hartman Escape " move to me,when after a few duels we went into the scissors and he tried the move on me.I found the move slightly difficult to follow because of not be familiar with it.I just chopped the throttle and waited for him to complete the move.

Please notice his move at 1:56-1:58 of the film.

Parin,very nice flying and fighting,and I was more than lucky several times to win the engagement.

http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/parin5.ahf
Title: hartman escape
Post by: humble on November 09, 2006, 08:05:22 PM: awful nice snapshot there early....just MG's but still. Personally I've never really understood that neg G "barrel roll".....especially in a same plane encounter. Since neither pilot has an exploitable flight envelope advantage you really need to get the other guy "leaning" and then suprise him somehow....invariably it seems like that move just serves you up as a clay pidgeon sooner or later....
Title: hartman escape
Post by: Creton on November 09, 2006, 11:00:27 PM: Heres some more films.Some are better than others.
I consider myself to be average at best in most planes.I tend to fly them all the same.

Hope these help in some ways to show people who are new to game,how to maybe survive a lil more often.

Feel free to critique them,and always feel free to duel me.

http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/pawsvsk4.ahf

http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/pawsvsk42.ahf

http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/pawsvsk43.ahf

http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/tcvs109g2.ahf

http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/tcandthep40.ahf

http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/tckillnmeinf4f.ahf

http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/tcvs38.ahf

http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/tcvsdhog.ahf

http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/tcvski84.ahf

http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/tcvski842.ahf
Title: hartman escape
Post by: humble on November 10, 2006, 09:48:45 AM: some nice clips, I didnt get to watch them all but the one with paws is very interesting to me since its 38 vs 109 (two planes that still baffle me somewhat). Normally Balor, Aper, you, Sky Chimp and a few other real aggresive 109 drivers tend to give me the most bloody noses in the MA...just hard to actually understand the limits of the 109 since its so pilot dependent...
Title: hartman escape
Post by: Creton on November 11, 2006, 10:37:40 PM: The 109's have one of the best torque rolls in the game,couple that with a some what high Drag Co-E and you have a greatplane that can decelerate very rapidly and cause overshoots.They are better off if fought in the verticale and tend to get a lil squerrily in horizontal turns.

I will post some films of more recent duels of 38 vs k4's and other 109 fights.

I generally will take the fight in the vert and catch the con at the top as they are transitioning or rolling out.One thing I've learned from flying 109's is that most who engage you,tend to believe that a 109 just cannot turn,this mis-conception ussually gets them more take off practice.:D

Ironnically I find tha the corsairs tend to be more bothersome than any other plane in game.Once those flaps deploy,it gets dicey.I have about 10 films of the f4u vs 109g2 and f4u vs 109k4 ,and will post them in a day or two.

I believe that to be most successful in the 109 you must make the fight and angles fight and force the con to go vert.This is my opinion and I'm sure more experienced 109 sticks would probably dissagree.
Title: hartman escape
Post by: humble on November 12, 2006, 10:04:51 AM: I havent run into you recently in the MA but seem to replay the same fight over and over. Most recently it was Aper but could be you Balor ect.....always starts with a higher 109 who goes under on bounce (which I consider a cardinal sin of ACM) then powers back up thru me into a series of very aggresive high yoyo's which tighten into a rolling scissors of some kind....eventually just ovetaxing the hogs E capabilties......think I may have the aper clip....will post it if I do....
Title: hartman escape
Post by: humble on November 12, 2006, 11:50:08 AM: I couldnt find either of the clips I was looking for but this one kind of illustrates the "problem". 109 (well flown) seems to be one of the few planes that can take me totally of my game (just the K4/G14). I literally snap spin the hog (I never ever lose plane) right in the midgame....then pooch the endgame and wrap it up by losing the 109 in my rear views....just totally dominated start to finish. Obviously a compination pilot and plane and interaction of "technique".....but these are the ones that leave me grumbling and #$#%^'ing

http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/109clips/argghhh.ahf
Title: hartman escape
Post by: Dichotomy on November 12, 2006, 03:08:42 PM: interesting stuff
Title: hartman escape
Post by: Apers on November 18, 2006, 04:43:56 PM: Quote
Originally posted by humble
nothing but a negative G dive...basicall he said you cant shoot when your floating up against your harness with blood rudhing to your head....guess you cant:)

Spits don't like negative G dives. it does bad things to their carberators, makes the engines sputter, stall, and even flood. none of which is something you want happening when you're holding onto the wolf's ears.
Title: hartman escape
Post by: Creton on November 19, 2006, 11:18:30 AM: Thats because the spit your flying is an early war plane and was carburated.Fly the later model injected spits and you wont have that problem.
Title: hartman escape
Post by: SkyChimp03 on November 19, 2006, 12:10:20 PM: Its usless in any other plane lol...
Title: hartman escape
Post by: Apers on November 19, 2006, 07:03:21 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Creton
Thats because the spit your flying is an early war plane and was carburated.Fly the later model injected spits and you wont have that problem.

Correct. the early spits had this flaw that the Luftwaffe pilots exploited often.
Title: hartman escape
Post by: B@tfinkV on November 19, 2006, 07:43:22 PM: the simple counter to this problem on the spit ans hurricane mk1 is to half roll and pull possitive Gs to dive.