Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Big Mickey on November 09, 2006, 10:08:07 AM
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Just a quick post regarding HO's. Why? because last night I experienced a fight with an individual that has turned it into a true art form. I'm not talking your standard garden variety "HO Dweeb" that is so prevalent in the LW arenas today. I am talking a "HO Dweeb" that has selected the perfect plane and has practiced to the point of perfection.
Now I am sure that the flamers are chomping at the bit to reply to this but before you do read on. This is in no way a whine about HOing. I learned a long time ago that HOing is just a part of the game, especially in the LW arenas. If you go in there with some high moral values about not HOing you will simply be shot in the face as you stand on that high ground....but on to my story.
So I am flying a Jug up high when I see a dot in the distance. I poor on the coal and start heading towards it in hopes that I can pull a bounce from below. When the icon comes up I see it's a 110. The first thing I start thinking is, "I don't want to go head on with this as it's a lot of guns to deal with." "If I am going head on I will dive under at 1K out" As I am closing in I zoom in my view to see if I can get a feel for his orientation to me. At 2k out I start to see tracers going by me from this 110. At first I thought "He is firing rockets at me!!" After all he is 2K out. At 1.5K he starts getting pings on me. I figure this is a complete fluke and dive under to extend.
I extend to about 4.5K and then reverse to try this again. As I am picking up steam and closing to 3.5k the 110 reverses and starts at me head on again. Once again at 2k out the tracers start flying by me. At 1k they start hitting and before I know it I'm covered in oil. To make this long story short I knew I was done for so in true dweeb fashion I headed straight for this 110 guns blazing with no intention of evading. Yes the non art form of the HO Dweeb Ram!! I figured one good turn deserves another.
So in closing my hats off to this individual for his HO skills. This is a practiced to perfection ability. He has picked the right plane and and has practiced to the point of lobing shells in from 2k out to HO ya. My warning to others, if you see a high 110 just let it be :aok
Big Mickey aka Ramming alt monkey
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I'll HO a 110, Jug, etc in a Spit1 if I have to. I don't choose to, but sometimes you have no choice.
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i hate HO's but it seems that everytime i try to avoid i get blown up anyways so unless im certain i can avoid it i find myself just turning in guns blazing and get it over with
:noid
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Hey Jim,
Standard HO avoidance.... dive under. You go out of their field of vision under the dash and as they are pushing forward to get lead.. their bullets are arcing up and over your head. Works 99.9% of the time. The other .1% you take a shot in the head and everything goes dark :rolleyes:
Big Mickey
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I try to dive under their nose at about 1.5K, depending on my speed and what I'm flying. Half the time it works.
Another thing I've found is that a lot of people will do a head-on merge without actually firing guns, I guess just to see if the other pilot is a HO'er... it's weird.
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Originally posted by scottydawg
snip
Another thing I've found is that a lot of people will do a head-on merge without actually firing guns, I guess just to see if the other pilot is a HO'er... it's weird.
Might be ex-AW players. A "guns cold" co-alt co-E HO merge was pretty much a normal way to start a dogfight there. Pass by each other, fight on.
culero
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Sometimes I just HO them back.
What I've found to work fairly well recently (about 90% you get away with no dmg) is to push my nose down when they start to line up, at 2k, bank right, at 1k-1.5k feed in some rudder and roll high or low left (depends on speed).
Sometimes they'll manage to take off an elevator or something, but its better that just exploding or eating pilot wounds & engine hits.
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I don't like to HO either, but it seems more like 95% of the time if I dive under to avoid, they just get a clean, unadulterated shot into my canopy. If I pull up or turn to avoid, I give a fresh clean shot right through my belly and off goes one or both wings.
I have reached the point that I am just going to start HO firing at anything and everything if trying to avoid it is going to cost me a death and flying time back.
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Originally posted by scottydawg
Another thing I've found is that a lot of people will do a head-on merge without actually firing guns, I guess just to see if the other pilot is a HO'er... it's weird.
In general on a HO, I won't shoot unless I see their guns flashing. They shoot first, it's on. Sticking with that as best I can has led me to alot of great fights. Head on, no guns merge, followed by lots of rolling & turning.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I'll HO a 110, Jug, etc in a Spit1 if I have to. I don't choose to, but sometimes you have no choice.
Umm, Masherbrum, you always have a choice.
HO= head on, but in this thread, he means firing at the person during a head on.
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I always lose a direct HO, or we end up ramming. So I try to avoid em. Unless its a bnz guy that gives you that shot only. Then I'll take a chance. Also alot of times you'll see a guy avoid the HO and it becomes an like a deflection shot of 45 degrees or so. I'll go for them if other enemy are present.
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Originally posted by Big Mickey
So in closing my hats off to this individual for his HO skills. This is a practiced to perfection ability.
He probably read this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=97161).
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All that needs to be said is 9T 800 out just below the center dot :D
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flayd i dont know man i think the tiffy is a better plane for the HO's those hispanos are deadly acurate even up to 1k i dont have much luck hitting anything with that potato gun on the yak:)
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Originally posted by Big Mickey
Just a quick post regarding HO's. Why? because last night I experienced a fight with an individual that has turned it into a true art form. I'm not talking your standard garden variety "HO Dweeb" that is so prevalent in the LW arenas today. I am talking a "HO Dweeb" that has selected the perfect plane and has practiced to the point of perfection.
Now I am sure that the flamers are chomping at the bit to reply to this but before you do read on. This is in no way a whine about HOing. I learned a long time ago that HOing is just a part of the game, especially in the LW arenas. If you go in there with some high moral values about not HOing you will simply be shot in the face as you stand on that high ground....but on to my story.
So I am flying a Jug up high when I see a dot in the distance. I poor on the coal and start heading towards it in hopes that I can pull a bounce from below. When the icon comes up I see it's a 110. The first thing I start thinking is, "I don't want to go head on with this as it's a lot of guns to deal with." "If I am going head on I will dive under at 1K out" As I am closing in I zoom in my view to see if I can get a feel for his orientation to me. At 2k out I start to see tracers going by me from this 110. At first I thought "He is firing rockets at me!!" After all he is 2K out. At 1.5K he starts getting pings on me. I figure this is a complete fluke and dive under to extend.
I extend to about 4.5K and then reverse to try this again. As I am picking up steam and closing to 3.5k the 110 reverses and starts at me head on again. Once again at 2k out the tracers start flying by me. At 1k they start hitting and before I know it I'm covered in oil. To make this long story short I knew I was done for so in true dweeb fashion I headed straight for this 110 guns blazing with no intention of evading. Yes the non art form of the HO Dweeb Ram!! I figured one good turn deserves another.
So in closing my hats off to this individual for his HO skills. This is a practiced to perfection ability. He has picked the right plane and and has practiced to the point of lobing shells in from 2k out to HO ya. My warning to others, if you see a high 110 just let it be :aok
Big Mickey aka Ramming alt monkey
lmao i doubt that dont know of anyone that can ping someone at 2k out with 20mm/30mm.... You sure your not having lag problems? lol
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I never ever ever receive a ho.. I never look for a ho our get lured in and get ho'ed. Its a last ditch tactic and should only be used if your fighting a hot head so you can listen to it for 30mins on 200. If i see someone ho i know that in 1 min they will die. Not that many vets use the HO so its like a calling card for newbs.
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If you are getting hit when going under...
you are probably starting your moves too early.
Assuming you both are going relatively fast...
the going under manuever increases your speed. Assuming he tries to keep you on his nose. This will increase his airspeed reducing his plane's ability to quickly change attitude (dive/climb). It also increases the G's required to make a change (redout), and reduces the time available to react.
Waiting until you are in his gun range (1000 or less), allows him less time to react.
Push forward on stick, gently at first.
Quickly see if he starts to follow, push harder if he does.
Try to keep close to him, without allowing him a shot, this reduces his ability to achieve a turn/dive on you.
As soon as you pass out of his gun range, go level or slightly climb.
WATCH HIM THE WHOLE TIME and react accordingly.
Variations by adding rudder or slight banks to this theme also work well when going under.
Plink
:aok
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Takes two to HO, nuff said.
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Originally posted by Traveler
Takes two to HO, nuff said.
Takes two to ho.
Takes 1 to fire.
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
Takes two to ho.
Takes 1 to fire.
Takes one to die :)
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Most HOs are actually attempted Rams. Unfortunately AH has a nasty habbit of killing one Rammer and letting the other off scott free (go figure).
What this does is motivate the guy with the lesser skill to go ahead and just attempt to ram his opponent giving himself at least a 50/50 chance of winning a contest that he would likely lose without the ram. Firing guns is just a hail mary to most of the people who use head ons as their primary ACM.
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two interesting points here:
first, to scottydawg, yes I have noticed that too. there's always a moment of tension when you are at about 400 yards and neither has fired yet- it's a mix of excitement at potentially encountering someone who is more interested in ACM than HO, and fear that, if he starts to shoot now, you're pretty much cooked.
side note- has anyone noticed that when someone tries to HO and they miss, the sound of their firing continues long after they have passed behind your plane? this happens a lot to me. either some people have terrible gunnery techniques, or HT has modeled the speed of sound into the game. i dont think the latter is true because
a) explosions in the distance are heard instantly
b) it is very rare to get a plane in this game above mach, especially in a HO situation, meaning that the sound of firing would arrive before, not after the plane.
second, to yeager, that's an interesting way of looking at it. since most people who try to HO me start firing at 1k, i would say that their priority is not to ram, but to ram only if a guns approach doesnt work. if anyone is out there flying with the pure intent to ram they are wasting their money or two week's time.
while we're talking about HO's, heres my method of avoiding, co-alt:
-at 3k put your nose approximately 20 degrees to the left or right of their approach path
-at 1k, with bogey maybe even guns blazing already, roll wings and come cross over his nose to about 20 degrees off in the other direction.
(he got his shooting formula based on your 20 degree departure from his flight path, it is extremely difficult for him to adjust his lead after already shooting or just about to shoot.)
- before going wings level, you now have a choice- you have already started a lead turn, if you so choose to go that route. or, you still have enough E to grab, since your turn was only 40 degrees total.
90% of the time, it works...every time.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
I'll HO a 110, Jug, etc in a Spit1 if I have to. I don't choose to, but sometimes you have no choice.
Well, if thats all you are good at, it may seem like you don't have a choice :D
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Originally posted by BugsBunny
Well, if thats all you are good at, it may seem like you don't have a choice :D
:furious Quit spamming.
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Originally posted by SkyChimp03
:furious Quit spamming.
It's ok SkyChimp, he's a useless shades boy that keeps lurking on my posts. He is skilless in the MA so, he has to make up for it in here.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
It's ok SkyChimp, he's a useless shades boy that keeps lurking on my posts. He is skilless in the MA so, he has to make up for it in here.
Stop hurting my feelings please!!!! I said 'IF'. I appologise if I was wrong. If you do accept my appology, would you please teach me some MA skillzzzz?
Thank you!
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Originally posted by BugsBunny
Stop hurting my feelings please!!!! I said 'IF'. I appologise if I was wrong. If you do accept my appology, would you please teach me some MA skillzzzz?
Thank you!
(http://img52.exs.cx/img52/8605/h9yboredom.gif)
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Originally posted by FX1
If i see someone ho i know that in 1 min they will die. Not that many vets use the HO so its like a calling card for newbs.
1 on 1 Ho's are relatively easy to avoid. The Ho'er is 99% of the time a skilless arse and can be lead into making fatal moves trying to stay in the Ho.
Practise Ho avoidance and you see where the kill is ....trust me :aok
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I HO constantly. The cries from the victim is priceless!!!
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Originally posted by SuperDud
I HO constantly. The cries from the victim is priceless!!!
:furious
We know Super we know...:D
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95% of people will Ho you in a fight im part of the other 5 percent. I laugh when people ho me cause I know they are a skilless dweeb with really no chance of killing me unless they get a lucky 1 out of 100 shot when i try to avoid the ho.
I think hoing is pretty much suicide if you practice avoiding it you will live a lot longer and end up with more kills, I know that trust me.
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When I saw 110 and HO I said to myself....yup thats what I expect when I see one, and what I do when I'm in one..not rocket science really.
shamus
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The real issue here is that you extended......if you take the under and he is firng then you should be able to go vertical.....the 110 is actually a pretty good bird but you should have no problem converting that 1st HO attempt to his last....it was the 2nd and 3rd that did you in....
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takes two to Ho,,,,roll out, turn, run home,,i bought it 5 times t'night by HO...get over it..its a good tactic as far as rank is concernd,,,"rank being the overbearing smell that a HO dweeb eminates...oh geeez did I say that outloud?
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Originally posted by culero
Might be ex-AW players. A "guns cold" co-alt co-E HO merge was pretty much a normal way to start a dogfight there. Pass by each other, fight on.
culero
Agreed....
Actually, anyone foolish enough to try and HO anyone in FR AW was merely putting up a huge sign saying, "I'm a dweeb and I don't know how to fly so please kill me quickly". That being said, the easiest way to kill someone in AW was to open up at 200 yds as you closed on his 6 or pretty much any rear quarter shot and fly right through him. All the rounds went into his hit bubble and he popped just before you flew through the fireball.
The shock for most of us who came to AH back around the beginning of the new millenium was that there were so many HO's pilots in AH.
Ren
The Damned
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Originally posted by JimBeam
flayd i dont know man i think the tiffy is a better plane for the HO's those hispanos are deadly acurate even up to 1k i dont have much luck hitting anything with that potato gun on the yak:)
Ahh but the YAK is so much smaller. :) It lets you get just a tad closer befor you let go of the taters. The russian 37mm and brit 20mm have about the same balistics range wise, at least in game. So you can hit fine with the 37 at 1K but the rate of fire is slower. On the other hand rate of fire may be slower but it usually only takes 1round to hit. :D
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every time you HO, God kills a kitten.:(
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
The shock for most of us who came to AH back around the beginning of the new millenium was that there were so many HO's pilots in AH.
Heh. Ain't that the truth?
- oldman
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The BIG shock to those of us around since 99 was the dive the game took when AW went tits up :aok
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Any decent stick knows how to gain separation before the merge. Doing so almost eliminates the chance of a head on and puts you in a favorable postion to saddle up.
Very simple:)
-Dano
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Originally posted by Yeager
The BIG shock to those of us around since 99 was the dive the game took when AW went tits up :aok
You're absolutely right!
I think yer off on the years. Didn't EA's AW go tango uniform in '01? Somewhere around tour 12-15?
Hmmm, how many tours in a year? 12? So, you're saying guys that had been flying a flight sim since '87 including some of those who've built WB and AH (the owners) had nothing to bring to guys who had a mere 1 year of flying? Yep, of the 600 or so posts as to who were old AW folks, guess what most if not all had more flight sim dogfighting experience than you may have brought to the game. Hmmmm, a year of flying...with the steep learning curve the game (FR) has to offer. 'Specially since it's basically FR. Please tell us just how shocked a noob like yerself was when a few hundred folks moved over at the demise of AW? Please spare us old timers your snide remarks about what AW folks did to AH. In fact, you can go from lets say '88-'01 and you never had the current mentality of whiners in AW that we have now. None of that ever came from AW.:)
What's that old saying...."if yer not part of the solution, yer part of the problem". So, your stupid remarks fall on deaf ears.
Ren
The Damned.
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You would have had to have been here in AH before hand to know what Im talking about. Its all water under the bridge now anyway. AH has changed several times since that day and things are ok now, but back then, a better smaller tighter community died, or got swallowed whole....whatever, no need to get all P Diddy ruffafluffa :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Dadano
Any decent stick knows how to gain separation before the merge. Doing so almost eliminates the chance of a head on and puts you in a favorable postion to saddle up.
Very simple:)
-Dano
Spoken by a True Noob.
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Originally posted by Yeager
The BIG shock to those of us around since 99 was the dive the game took when AW went tits up :aok
The big shock was that they redid the FM in 1.4 to accomodate the lower overall skill level. AH had already drawn a very formidable bunch of players (skill wise) and although there were obviously still many great sticks in AW the RR fliers had little or no chance and the FR fliers had a significant hurdle in E management. In AH 1.3 you flew smart or you died....the FM gave no mercy for wasted E.
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Originally posted by Yeager
The BIG shock to those of us around since 99 was the dive the game took when AW went tits up :aok
Shocking when you get shown "how it's done" by outsider's aint it? :aok :rofl
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The big shock was that they redid the FM in 1.4 to accomodate the lower overall skill level.
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Yes
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Originally posted by Yeager
The big shock was that they redid the FM in 1.4 to accomodate the lower overall skill level.
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Yes
Did they? I Don't remember that big a change. What was it they changed... and why would old AW's have such an inferiority to other's?
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
You're absolutely right!
I think yer off on the years. Didn't EA's AW go tango uniform in '01? Somewhere around tour 12-15?
Hmmm, how many tours in a year? 12? So, you're saying guys that had been flying a flight sim since '87 including some of those who've built WB and AH (the owners) had nothing to bring to guys who had a mere 1 year of flying? Yep, of the 600 or so posts as to who were old AW folks, guess what most if not all had more flight sim dogfighting experience than you may have brought to the game. Hmmmm, a year of flying...with the steep learning curve the game (FR) has to offer. 'Specially since it's basically FR. Please tell us just how shocked a noob like yerself was when a few hundred folks moved over at the demise of AW? Please spare us old timers your snide remarks about what AW folks did to AH. In fact, you can go from lets say '88-'01 and you never had the current mentality of whiners in AW that we have now. None of that ever came from AW.:)
What's that old saying...."if yer not part of the solution, yer part of the problem". So, your stupid remarks fall on deaf ears.
Ren
The Damned.
Hehe..........
The True "old guard" {those that flew AW/dos on genie etc} had a totally different mentality then even those in AW when I started in 1994. Many of the old hands had already migrated to warbirds by then. AW on AOL brought a whole new set of players (including me). Many stayed in "day care" {RR arena's} for years.....the FR had a code of ethics that was harshly enforced up to and including the use of "killshooter"....I remember -HR- and others picking guys off who jumped our fights....then merrily resuming stomping me to death.
Other then the change in FM I think AH benifited from the influx from AW and WB's. The overall numbers brought significant changes in gameplay due to the increase in "realism". The average sim pilot is significanty more skilled then his real life counterpart was.....especially back in FR AW where you had very very few baby seals at any given time.
Now you have roughly 5.000 (round number guess) total pilots....maybe 1000 have actual skill in the "mano e mano" combat more prevelent in AW.Maybe a few hundred are really "elite" in that aspect of gameplay. The middle segment have good overskills for AH gameplay (SA, gunnery, bombing, Gving) and the bottom 20% are still learning those skills. Air war in WW1 closely correlated to AW and it's "knights in the sky" concept. AH1 was probably equivelent to the "early war" on the western front in 39-42 where the concept of chivalry still existed in some form. AH2 (prior to recent changes) was probably the most realistic enviornment with regard to the meat grinder of latewar aircombat in WW2. Simply a war of attrition on both sides with pilot skill secondary to group tactics.....
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Originally posted by Tumor
Did they? I Don't remember that big a change. What was it they changed... and why would old AW's have such an inferiority to other's?
Very big change (to me) in reworking energy retention.
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Originally posted by humble
Now you have roughly 5.000 (round number guess) total pilots....maybe 1000 have actual skill in the "mano e mano" combat more prevelent in AW.Maybe a few hundred are really "elite" in that aspect of gameplay. The middle segment have good overskills for AH gameplay (SA, gunnery, bombing, Gving) and the bottom 20% are still learning those skills. Air war in WW1 closely correlated to AW and it's "knights in the sky" concept. AH1 was probably equivelent to the "early war" on the western front in 39-42 where the concept of chivalry still existed in some form. AH2 (prior to recent changes) was probably the most realistic enviornment with regard to the meat grinder of latewar aircombat in WW2. Simply a war of attrition on both sides with pilot skill secondary to group tactics.....
That's a good assessment humble!