Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: JB88 on November 12, 2006, 12:23:23 AM
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been thinking about practicing a martial art. the most appealing to my sensibilities so far has been aikido. my interest in this form stems from my desire to learn a purely defensive art. i have no desire to learn how to hurt others for fun and profit.
i am reading a book right now called Aikido and the dynamic sphere. very well written and it is quite informative. of course, i know that i will not really learn to practice it with a book, but feel that i may come to know its essence.
unfortunately i have not found anywhere in my area that teaches it, so i cannot be sure.
i know a man nearby who teaches chin-na, (a chinese form which uses control or locking to subdue opponents) he is well respected in the area and is associated with some even more respected teachers in the area.
an aquaintance of mine has invited me to join him at a class and i may try it.
(my only real concern on that level is that the chin-na instructor once had a thing for my girlfriend and he got shot down. i fear this may realize itself in the business end of a lock/break. eek.)
anywho. i am curious about the differences between forms and practices (particularly between aikido and chin-na, but certainly not limited to then.
i am also wondering if any of you have any specific knowledge of martial arts that you might wish to share or suggestions about which might go well with my philosophy.
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I spoke to my son's anesthesiologist the other day after his shoulder surgery. The doctor was interested simply because both of our sons wrestle in high school.
His son also practices ju-jitsu and he spoke of it for a while. It sounded very defensive. He remarked that his son's favorite position was to fight while on his back on the ground.
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Ninjas are kick a $$ =)....Aikado is very similar to Ninjitsu correct?
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What would you rather be??????
An assassin ninja? Or a defending samurai?
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Originally posted by JB88
i am also wondering if any of you have any specific knowledge of martial arts that you might wish to share or suggestions about which might go well with my philosophy.
What do you want to know?
I studied something called Nanbudo (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nanbudo) from age 10 minus the last couple of years. Its very similar to aikido in many ways. If you want a defencive sport then aikido is the way to go. You could try Krav Maga, but thats not really a martial art in the tradtional sense.
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I really enjoyed the few aikido courses I've taken. The spiritual bit is just as silly as any, but even without "believing", the spiritual exercises do a great job of focusing your mind and body. It's amazing what people can do when they're REALLY focused and mind/body are in sync.
A simple aikido focusing exercise I did back at the Academy sold me on Aikido. The instructor had us imagining a center of energy (chi) at our center of gravity, behind our bellybutton. He had us point our arms and fingers at a door, and imagine energy flowing from our center out our hand and out the door. He led us through a mind focusing exercise for 10 minutes based on this imagery. Then he had every other person hang onto the wrist of the person next to them and lift their feet off the floor.
I straight-armed my roommate, 140 lbs. He hung on my wrist and picked his feet off the floor, and I didn't move more than half an inch. Freaking amazing.
Of course, the next day I found that I'd pulled ever muscle in my back and shoulders, but still the lesson was very clear that a fully focused mind and body can do things that are not typically thought possible.
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All of this martial arts contains a huge amount of show. Look at the typical Aikido demonstration with all the fancy throws, effortless and really cool looking.
Put that Aikido master in a mixed martial arts cage fight and you see him boxing, kicking and finally going down on the mat for a dirty clenchfight like a streetbrawler. In mixed martial arts fight where there are very few rules, show manner fights just won't happen. And cagefights are more like it would be in a real world self defence situation.
I've always liked submission moves myself and they seem to be really effective in the cage too.
As a sidenote, brasilian ju-jitsu fighters seem to be real monsters in the cage.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
As a sidenote, brasilian ju-jitsu fighters seem to be real monsters in the cage.
They are, and its the most "brutal" form of Jiu-jitsu.
Most streetfights are over in a few seconds if one of the fighters have training of some sort. In real life you will extremly seldom see anything even close to cage fights unless both are drunk, on drugs or clumsy.
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I practice Muay Thai (Thai Kickboxing) with a bit of BJJ tossed in the mix. I totaly understand wanting to study a martial art for defensive reasons but at the same time what are you looking to get out of the class? Muay Thai is actually a very offensive form of martial art with the types of striking techniques that are used, but as far as a workout goes it is very intense. I've lost over 25 pounds since I started just over a year ago and I've decressed my total body fat % by 6%. It has also helped my stress level go way down. Nothing like kicking and punching the crap out of the pads after a hard day at work. It is also very practical in a real world situation. The head instructor at the school I attend is a guy by the name of Frank Cucci. Here is a link to the school I attend. There is some good info on the site in case you might want to check it out. LINXX Academy of Martial Arts (http://www.linxxacademy.com/index.html)
Good luck and I hope you find something you enjoy.
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for purely defensive purposes aikido or jiu jitsu are good martial arts discipline. I'd also suggest any of the go-ju disciplines if you have a difficult time locating an aikido practitioner in your area try googling phillipe chenique see if that produces any results. contact him, maybe he can point you to someone in your area.
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I could teach you some mma if you lived nearby
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I take an MMA class (UFC style fighting). I like it because it just doesnt teach you one style. It focuses on Mui Tia, Kick boxing, American Wrestling (not WWE style), and of course Jiu Jitsu.
I tried just taking a Martial art like Kung Fu, and I just didnt really like it. Now Mix Martial arts is the future, you know how to fight on your feet, in the clinch, and on the ground.
Just like hornett33 I have lost 20lbs and i just started 6 months ago and that is doing it on and off.
Here is the place I go to http://www.hackneyscombat.com/ If you ever watched UFC the guy that runs the place is Keith hackney. If you remember the early days of UFC he took on a 650lbs black guy and broke his hand over the dudes head knocking him out. Also If you watch the Ultimate fighter 4 on spike one of his projects were on the Ultimate fighter 4. His name is Gideon Ray.
But if i was looking for a martial arts place i would be looking for an Mix Martial arts place, Or a place that Teaches Mui Tia, and Jiu-Jitsu.
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My teacher doesn't teach all the hype of the UFC style, he just teaches us how to win a fight or a competition, if we decide to go to one.
I started when I was 12, so the only weight I lost was baby weight after Amber was born
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Yeah we dont focus on the UFC. Even though he does have fighters in it. He more or less teaches if you get in a fight how to win. Most of the people there are there for self defense, not to fight in the UFC.
When we spar it isn't what are you going to do in the cage. It is if you get in a fight how to protect yourself, and win.
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My aikido sensei would take issue with you saying that it's a purely defencive martial art. ;)
Aikidoka are totally allowed to kick someone's ass, but we try not to hurt them anymore than necessary. The letting the other person strike first is a matter of tactics not necessarily ethics. However, the brand of aikido we practice is based on O- Sensei Ueshiba's earlier style.
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Never knew there were so many of you that did some form of martial arts. Doesnt look like Nanbudo has been exported over the pond yet tho.
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I'm doing Judo for one year already.....Judo Chap! KKah!
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Originally posted by Thrawn
My aikido sensei would take issue with you saying that it's a purely defencive martial art. ;)
Aikidoka are totally allowed to kick someone's ass, but we try not to hurt them anymore than necessary. The letting the other person strike first is a matter of tactics not necessarily ethics. However, the brand of aikido we practice is based on O- Sensei Ueshiba's earlier style.
I didn't say that aikido is purely defensive, what I said was that for purerly defensive purposes aikido and jiu jitsu are very good disciplines.
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Originally posted by storch
I didn't say that aikido is purely defensive, what I said was that for purerly defensive purposes aikido and jiu jitsu are very good disciplines.
My apologies,...might as well through Tai Chi in there as well.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
My aikido sensei would take issue with you saying that it's a purely defencive martial art. ;)
I do believe the true spirit of all martial arts is defensive
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Here's a fight between a black belt karate instructor and a brasilian ju-jitsu practitioner: Where'd he go? (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/214198/bjj_vs_black_belt_karate_shotokan_instructor/)
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Originally posted by Eagler
I do believe the true spirit of all martial arts is defensive
Goodness no. At least amongst the Japanese martial arts, aikido is the exception. The purpose of martial arts is to become a more perfect weapon for your liege lord. The only thing you might defend with it is your honour. And if that means aggressively killing a whole bunch of people, so be it.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
Here's a fight between a black belt karate instructor and a brasilian ju-jitsu practitioner: Where'd he go? (http://www.metacafe.com/watch/214198/bjj_vs_black_belt_karate_shotokan_instructor/)
very big difference in the fighting techniques betwen those two disciplines. furthermore if the shotokan practioner is American and accustomed to point fighting in tournaments he has no business stepping onto the tatami with a brazilian gutter fighter. I wouldn't unless my life depended on it and then it would be no holds barred.
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Originally posted by storch
very big difference in the fighting techniques betwen those two disciplines. furthermore if the shotokan practioner is American and accustomed to point fighting in tournaments he has no business stepping onto the tatami with a brazilian gutter fighter. I wouldn't unless my life depended on it and then it would be no holds barred.
Almost this kind of fights can be seen at UFC too against other disciplines. The BJJ fighters take the fight extremely agressively to the ground and then apply submission holds. Most of the time the opponent doesn't even have a chance of punching back properly before they're forced to tap out. :rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Doesnt look like Nanbudo has been exported over the pond yet tho.
isn't that the one that uses an ancient boat ramming technique?
:D
(sorry. could'nt help it)
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sorry I don't watch UFC for the same reasons I don't watch any sporting events, they don't interest me.
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Say what you want about weather or not its for defense or offense, but personally I'll never use it on another person unless I'm in a position that I have no other choice. Unless its rape, then somebody's gonna die.
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In my younger days I studied Shorinji Kempo. It is based on defence. As I recall though part of the philosophy behind it is not to profit from the art, so it's usually not taught in "schools". It is usually taught in some non-profit organisation like a club though there are some dedicated dojos around.
63tb
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There really is no purely offensive or devensive martial arts out there. What it boils down to is the mindset you have going into it. Take Muay Thai for example. The fighting style is very aggresive, and it can inflict massive damage in a very short period of time if applied correctly. Knowing what I know about it I can say with little doubt, that in a street fight I would probably be able to wipe the floor with someone in short order. Knowing that, I DO NOT go out looking for trouble. If I did I would be using my training offensively and that goes against what I have been taught. Mearly being prepared and knowing that I can handle most any situation that might come my way is devensive in nature and that is why I train.
The mindset of the student and teacher is more important than the type of martial art that is practiced. I am a firm beliver in some form of mixed martial arts though. The more knowledge you have the more prepared you will be when a situation dictates that it is time to use what you have learned. You never know when some drunk a hole at a bar or some punk kid will take you for an easy mark and start some crap. Eliminate the initial threat quicly and decisively and any buddies they have will quickly think twice before they take a beat down.
Just my two cents.
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Originally posted by storch
sorry I don't watch UFC for the same reasons I don't watch any sporting events, they don't interest me.
nothing beats a great UFC matchup (j 100 crappy ones for every good one) .. like to watch boxing and wrestling (hs, college & olympic)..
have a brown belt in judo and wrestled for four years 8th thru 12th grade. Found judo was wrestling with heavy gis on 90% of the time with throws, chokes and arm bars thrown in for fun :)
Thrawn I say it is defensive as if you use it to start something, you haven't learned it
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ya eagler, the best fight is the one you can avoid.
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Go with the box,all that asian crap doesnt work on street.
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lol
And let me guess, you know this because you are an expert in every Asian martial art and have tried them all in street fights.
:rolleyes:
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Sprinting is a defensive technique :D
And if you're caught, It's probably judo who will serve you. I've seen Judo guys completely lock Karate guys.
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Sadly none of the martial arts are any good if you are caught off-guard and someone gets the first good punch in on your face. Few real fights last beyond the first fist... martial art(ist) or not.
One good punch and you are out.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Sadly none of the martial arts are any good if you are caught off-guard and someone gets the first good punch in on your face. Few real fights last beyond the first fist... martial art(ist) or not.
One good punch and you are out.
Hah, tell that to Chuck Norris. You only get the first punch if Chuck allows it to happen. Then when you throw the next punch and Chuck stops your fist in his hold, he knocks you out with the look in his eyes :D
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Originally posted by Thrawn
lol
And let me guess, you know this because you are an expert in every Asian martial art and have tried them all in street fights.
:rolleyes:
I didnt try them on street dummy.I saw people who did tho.
It's funny to watch a black belt getting his ars kicked within 10 seconds by an amateur boxer.
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Bad execution by one guy doesn't imply the method is ineffective in itself.
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Originally posted by KgB
I didnt try them on street dummy.I saw people who did tho.
It's funny to watch a black belt getting his ars kicked within 10 seconds by an amateur boxer.
And if the black belt got a good punch in first the roles would have been reversed. A white belt can knock a black belt if he is lucky.
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I once knocked the front teeth out of a blackbelter, - and I'm no boxer.
I could also lock him.
Luckily for me, He never managed to kick me in the head ;)
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I saw some dude try out some marital arts on the street once, but the other guy just told him to put his pants back on and go home.
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Originally posted by cav58d
What would you rather be??????
An assassin ninja? Or a defending samurai?
theres a third option.
Buy a gun and shoot em both ;)
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we used to allways think that boxers had nothing to fear from any of the martial artists... Hell.. at least we knew what it felt like to get hit.
Now I see this "ultimate" fighting stuff and it is just a bunch of guys learning to box well and... some good old fashioned barroom wrestling if you have to.
I allways figured that the martial arts thing was good to give the kid some exercise and to keep him busy at night. Nothing wrong with that... nothing wrong with getting a little confidense.
I would not recomend boxing to kids as it is too dangerous for todays utes.
lazs
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Originally posted by JB88
i am also wondering if any of you have any specific knowledge of martial arts that you might wish to share or suggestions about which might go well with my philosophy.
Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu is good stuff depending on your size. Alot of it is designed specifically to negate the striking advantages of a bigger opponent (reach & power). It's all about blood chokes & joint locks.
His son also practices ju-jitsu and he spoke of it for a while. It sounded very defensive. He remarked that his son's favorite position was to fight while on his back on the ground.
You can score alot of points in BJJ tournaments while on your back. For example, if you've got a guy in your closed guard, which is him on top, with your legs locked around his waist you have quite a few options, but his are more limited. You can slide your knees up to his armpits and setup a triangle choke (a "blood" choke), get control of a wrist, snap your legs over and lock in an armbar, reverse your position, etc, etc.
What you see alot of in BJJ guys vs guys not very well trained is when the fight goes to the ground, the other guy tends to panic. He'll either get mounted and pounded out, panic & turn his back (and get choked out), or panic & stick an arm out (instant armbar ending).
It is a really good martial art. The classes I've attended have been pretty good. 30 minutes of exercise & drills, 30 minutes of non-stop "rolling" (sparring). The intense guys are the ones that do the 1 1/2 hour no-gi classes before the 1 hr gi classes. That's alot of fighting & scrambling. :huh
ps: To the guys that lost weight. I must be a freak of nature. I actually gained 10 pounds when I was training. :t
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Take any 'asian' martial arts class, and you'll see, when it's time to practice mock fights, 99% of the students ditch all the discipline they were taught and fight like monkeys.
99% of them don't even have, or took the time to develop, the reflexes to use the proper moves for each situation, correctly.
It's not the discipline, it's the user that's just not using it right.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
My aikido sensei would take issue with you saying that it's a purely defencive martial art. ;)
Aikidoka are totally allowed to kick someone's ass, but we try not to hurt them anymore than necessary. The letting the other person strike first is a matter of tactics not necessarily ethics. However, the brand of aikido we practice is based on O- Sensei Ueshiba's earlier style.
:lol
Having started Aikido few months back myself, this is the best description ive heard of yet.
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JB88, I'd suggest finding out if you can take a good hit or two before deciding on what art to go for, Anything that develops your ability to keep going after been hit a few times is the one to go for, all these fancy moves and stuff won't do anything for you when you are close up to someone, Whoever mentioned the mixed martial arts is probably correct, You'll find out about yourself very quickly after taking a few hits, then you know how to proceed from there.
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My youngest daughter takes TaeKwonDo. She recently tested and received her Senior Green. She has done well and excelled at it. I go to watch them on occassion, full contact sparring, was amazed at what she can do now. She has been breaking boards for over 6 months, improving her hitting force.
I recommend it.
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Originally posted by indy007
ps: To the guys that lost weight. I must be a freak of nature. I actually gained 10 pounds when I was training. :t
Well the 25 or so I've lost was beer belly weight and body fat. I know for a fact my muscle mass has increased so I'm actually starting to get some weight back, except this time it's lean muscle. It's taken a year of hard work but I'm starting to see the real results of my training. Feels pretty good. Of course going through a divorce and having to get back into the dating scene again was good motivation. Have to look good to get the hotties:aok
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I think I'd kill to see a fight between storch and nuke.
It would either be a showdown of the gods, or two fat guys shrieking at eachother with maybe a slap or two thrown in for good measure.
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Originally posted by Hornet33
Well the 25 or so I've lost was beer belly weight and body fat. I know for a fact my muscle mass has increased so I'm actually starting to get some weight back, except this time it's lean muscle. It's taken a year of hard work but I'm starting to see the real results of my training. Feels pretty good. Of course going through a divorce and having to get back into the dating scene again was good motivation. Have to look good to get the hotties:aok
Heh it's a fact that a wife is the key to getting sloppy and gaining weight.
<-- gained 20+ kg since getting married. :eek:
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that is very true mersu but I guess you haven't been married long with only 20kg gained :D
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Hey there:
"Heh it's a fact that a wife is the key to getting sloppy and gaining weight.
<-- gained 20+ kg since getting married. "
Is your wife not alive?
And not mentioning children, which make good sprint excersice.
My wife is some (cough) 9 years younger, - we got married some 3 years ago, and I didn't gain a pound, - just 2 children ;)
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Sadly none of the martial arts are any good if you are caught off-guard and someone gets the first good punch in on your face. Few real fights last beyond the first fist... martial art(ist) or not.
One good punch and you are out.
Sadly most criminals use guns anyway. It doesn't matter who you are, unless your name I Bruce Lee, and your in a movie, your probably gonna get shot.
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"thankfully" its not quite the same here dmf. Those that use guns are mostly those that set out to murder someone or rob a bank. Gang members also use guns but almost exclusivly against other gangs and not the public. The average nut on the street has knifes if he is armed. Bruglars are almost never armed with anything but a crowbar.
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Originally posted by Angus
Hey there:
"Heh it's a fact that a wife is the key to getting sloppy and gaining weight.
<-- gained 20+ kg since getting married. "
Is your wife not alive?
And not mentioning children, which make good sprint excersice.
My wife is some (cough) 9 years younger, - we got married some 3 years ago, and I didn't gain a pound, - just 2 children ;)
She's alive. Cooking good food and taking care of the household. I don't have to chase ***** anymore so I stoped keeping in shape. Simple as that. :)
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Hehe, well back to martial arts:
http://www.metacafe.com/watch/98275/monty_python_self_defence_class/
;)
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Originally posted by Schatzi
:lol
Having started Aikido few months back myself, this is the best description ive heard of yet.
They let girls do martial arts??? :rolleyes:
:lol
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First of all, I agree with whoever said that if you wanna be good at defending yourself you should practice running, maybe 110m hurdles or the like. Best defense ever.
If that isnt your cup o' tea and you decide you wanna practice some martial arts the first you need to do is forget all about BJJ/JJ, karate and judo since they are SPORTS.
Defence is mostly (IMHO) about a strong mind and a fast mouth. With that you can come a long way without breaking someones elbow. Should u however decide to break someones elbow for whatever reason, I would reccomend practising Aikido or Bujinkan Budo Taijutsu (BBT), both Martial Arts and not SPORTS. Have a look, I think you'll like 'em.
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Hehe, was serious about the running.
There are three good other things that may help you defend yourself.
1. Sense of realism. Do you have many opponents? Is your opponent drunk or nuts etc etc (I did a mistake there once, I got out, but with 5 cuts on my head. There was not just that one little ****, they were 3)
2. Blocking. Most guys throw you a right swing. Heck, I've blocked many :D
3. Physical fitness. In many cases more valuable than some trics. It's also one of the cornerstones of many a martial arts, notably Judo.
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Originally posted by Silat
They let girls do martial arts??? :rolleyes:
:lol
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/177_1163505044_shotokan.jpg)
Les
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Blocking then fisting... nice :D
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Shoulda known....thanks, I think.:D
Les
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getting a divorce is the best diet to lose weight and gain muscle mass.
Any martial arts that don't involve sparring with someone and actual striking is no good but... pulling punches while sparring is simply gaining really bad habits, worse than not hitting at all.
and no... most criminals do not have guns in America.
Running is best. I can't run. boxing works but I have slowed down and am really out of practice.. You can talk your way out of most and.... the ones you can't talk your way out of... you can talk to distraction while you pull your gun.
sometimes... there really is nothing you can do but hope for the best.
lazs
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"getting a divorce is the best diet to lose weight and gain muscle mass."
Hehe, depends on the wife :D
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I think someone already metione this, and again one may not consider it a "martial art", but for self-defense I would look up Krav Maga. It's the fighting form that they teach in the Isreali armed forces, where anything, and I mean anything, goes. Render your opponent harmless the fastest and easiest way possible.
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Krav Maga or variations of it are used by most armed forces and police.
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Originally posted by lazs2
getting a divorce is the best diet to lose weight and gain muscle mass.
Any martial arts that don't involve sparring with someone and actual striking is no good but... pulling punches while sparring is simply gaining really bad habits, worse than not hitting at all.
and no... most criminals do not have guns in America.
Running is best. I can't run. boxing works but I have slowed down and am really out of practice.. You can talk your way out of most and.... the ones you can't talk your way out of... you can talk to distraction while you pull your gun.
sometimes... there really is nothing you can do but hope for the best.
lazs
that pretty well sums up what's wrong with most dojos. ours is full contact on days when we practice kumite. I say "we" figuratively since I no longer spar the kids. parents who bring their kids are warned that if they participate in fighting they will be hit, often times hard. needless to say we are a small group of practitioners but the kids come away with with a lot of self confidence and can hit as well take hits.
here in florida we are seeing far fewer armed crimes, as many of you know we are within our rights to respond with deadly force if we feel in any way threatened by any individual.
oddly you can still be in a lot of legal trouble for a being involved in a fistcuff.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
"thankfully" its not quite the same here dmf. Those that use guns are mostly those that set out to murder someone or rob a bank. Gang members also use guns but almost exclusivly against other gangs and not the public. The average nut on the street has knifes if he is armed. Bruglars are almost never armed with anything but a crowbar.
I wanna move there, here.
In America most criminals have guns, the guy I'm dating said that most don't want to shoot you unless they have to, iut its the rest of them that I worry about.
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I am a chain belt in Kung Fu. Bruce Lee was my teacher. Watch this. Woop! HAA! Agai! Woop! Woop! Agai! Ayahhhh! Woop! Iguh! Hiya! Woo! Woo! Ha! Ha! Woop! Agai! Bin! Ha! Haaaaaaaaaa... Watah! Tidah! That's called the quart of blood technique. You do that, a quart of blood will drop out of a person's body."
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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
lol
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Yes, you can get in legal trouble if you hurt someone and it becomes known you have studied a martial art. Advice for the average person who wants to learn some self defense and get in shape. Do not train under someone who encourages trying out the martial art in street brawls. Example of a bad instructor is the guy in the movie Karate Kid, who instructed the "Cobra Kai" dojo. Stay away from "chain store" dojos that require contracts. Check out local universities' continuing education programs, or the Y.M.C.A.
Beginner training usually is very intense to weed out anyone there who wants to learn a martial art for nefarious purposes. Think of getting a black belt in no less than 4 years, about like a college degree. Like everything, you get out what you put in. Best to go at your own pace, far as advancing. I usually waited for my instructor to indicate when I was ready for a test.
Couple stories:
One of the women who was training with our group woke up one night with a would-be rapist holding a knife to her throat. She had been training about six months. She said to herself, "This isn't going to happen to me," and with that pushed the guy off her and literally kicked him out the window he came in.
A guy who had been training about six months pulled over to help out what he thought was a stranded motorist. He was attacked with a chain and successfully defended himself. Another guy, a green belt (about 9 months training) was driving and motioned over by a trucker...road rage incident I suppose. The trucker came up to swing and the green belt knocked him out.
Karate works through the element of surprise. It's not intended as a sustained action, in other words, stun and run for non-fighters. Some of the guys in our class who were already street fighters began Karate to learn self control. It mellowed them out. They didn't need a martial art for self defense.
Les
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Originally posted by Leslie
Beginner training usually is very intense to weed out anyone there who wants to learn a martial art for nefarious purposes. Think of getting a black belt in no less than 4 years, about like a college degree. Like everything, you get out what you put in. Best to go at your own pace, far as advancing. I usually waited for my instructor to indicate when I was ready for a test.
The Martial Art i have studied has another but just as effective approach to weeding out the "bullies". We spend the first 3-6 months teaching mostly stances, breathing and blocking and one defencive kata. The guys (or girls) looking for action or to learn how to kick and hit quickly tire of this and quit witin that period. They usually end up in Kickboxing.
There is not a minimum time frame for handing out the backbelt, but since you cant skip belts and you can only graduate from blue and up every full year when the founder of the sport gets to norway it naturally limits itself. You learn the katas needed to graduate only after you have mastered those on the previous level too. Even if you could graduate whenever you wanted its too difficult to do it in less than 4-5 or maybe six years depending on how quick you learn.
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nilsen, that's the credible way to bring students along. the tougest belt our students earn is the yellow belt. as you say nilsen the first 6 months or so are spent learning breathing techniques and the basics with strong emphasis on foot and hand positioning for the basic kata. we also teach falling forward and backward during this period. there is also strong emphasis on fall technique because the yellowbelt test isn't taken on the tatami but outside of the dojo in the parking lot and the student must demonstrate his falling technique on asphalt and concrete.
the falling techinue which I learned so long ago served me very well ten years ago. I was riding my bicycle for exercise at night, a passing truck clipped my handlebar with his mirror. my reaction took me off of the asphalt onto the shoulder where there was a deep indentation which caused me to stop suddenly sending me over the handle bars. I rolled into the fall and it wasn't too different from practice in the dojo only a lot faster so I rolled twice and came up on my feet unhurt. the bike had the front forks bent back so far they had to be replaced along with the front wheel.
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Falling is something i practise every friday and saturday outside my local pub.
j/k
Its imortant to learn how to fall. Learning to fall also gives you better balance. The last junior class i had were not a pretty sight. I firmly belive kids nowadays have worse balance than when i had my first class back in 1990.
I blame indoor activities and consoles. When teaching juniors we also include 10 minutes of playtime before and after each class to get them abit more settled and ready to take in some info and not go all over the place. The last class also had abit less creativity when playing with their fellow students than my first class.
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I learned falling from the USMC by dumping endless times into bomb craters :D
Actually came in handy when I was paddling my bike at max speed and the steer disengaged from the wheel, lol.
I was catapulted, and stayed in the air long enoug to read Dostojevsky.
The landing was correct, doc told me I was very lucky to get away like that with only 2 fractured ribs.
So, yes, physical training helps;)
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we boxed in high school in my generation and, like a fool, I boxed some latter on in "sportsman" matches. I can see why high schools don't allow it now with the new climate of womanlyness.
even with head and mouth gear and heavy gloves... at least once a week someone would get a broken nose or knocked out. In the gyms where golden gloves and sportsman sparred.. it was even worse.
without that level of intensity you really aren't gonna learn how to handle yourself when faced with an agressive attacker bent on injuring you any way that he can. Even then... you need to be able to read people who have no real human traits.
even then... and that is a big deal... you will get suckered. you will lose. My most successful bar fights were where I hit first and as hard as I could. everything else ended up pretty much like those UFC things on TV with a lot of wrestling around on the floor.... if you were lucky.... if not.. you got hit with something or ratpacked or suckerpunched. I can't think of any training that would help someone in a lot of the situations I seen.
now... if you just want the kid to get some exercise and help with his shyness..... probly martial arts are as good as soccer.
lazs
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Look at the karate guy in the posted video Lazs. Those are actually 2 martial arts, one of the punching type, one of the wrestling type.
So, the punch expert misses once, and he's done.
Same with a boxing throw. But the beauty of good iu Jitsu or Judo is that one can actually get out of a 1 vs 1 situation with complete victory, without harming the....assaulter. You don't get sued ;)
Now, if you're a gun holder and draw quick enough, you may shoot someone who looks as if he's taking a swing at you. If you fail there, who's got your gun?
So, my vote goes to ....judo...ish stuff.
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If you watch the ultimate fighting stuff you will see guys with years of jujitsu training getting beat to a pulp and worse.... they are losing to the barroom type wrestling that is mostly going on... like in any fight the bigger and stronger guy in the best shape with the most wind and meanest attitude pervails.
I am not sure that you want to teach people to prevail at that cost.
lazs
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In real life its abit different, but in ultimate fighting games with rules then i dunno. Havent watched it.
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See that is why MMA is becoming so popular. It isnt just one martial art. That is what is so great about it. It is 30 minutes of stand up, and 30 minutes ground work everyday. I will tell you i am not the best at stand up, but i am comfortable enough on my feet. But no matter what the situation i feel comfortable doing it because i pratice in all situations.
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nelson...you need to watch it... it is really just a barrom fight without anything available but your body to use as a weapon.
lazs
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Still has little to do with a real fight. There is rules and its there to entertain, and im sure its good fun too.
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I have seen plenty of "real" fights and the differences in them is pretty large... some look exactly like the ultimate ones, same exact script, but.....
The difference between the "ultimate" fights and real is.... one or both of the "contestants" are not drunk or loaded.... the crowd does not participate... No weapons other than the human body are used... the fight ends when someone is knocked out or gives up.
The other major difference is that both parties know that a fight is about to begin.
lazs
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Im just guessing here, but in ultimate fighting i would think they have some sort of protection sertain areas. You wont find that in a normal fight... drunken barfight or elsewere.
In real life a jiu-jitsu guy or a boxer would take out the other guy with one good punch or whatever. When you have 2 amateurs fighting then it sometimes lasts for awhile, but add a "pro" or two in the mix and one of them usually gets in a devestating blow, kick or lock within seconds and not minutes.
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Here are the rules for the UFC.
http://www.ufc.com/index.cfm?fa=LearnUFC.Rules
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Originally posted by Nilsen
Im just guessing here, but in ultimate fighting i would think they have some sort of protection sertain areas. You wont find that in a normal fight... drunken barfight or elsewere.
You get lightly padded gloves & a cup.
Reason for all the UFC rules is for the state athletic commissions. When the Zuffas & Dana White bought it, they needed to be able to market it in a lot of areas. Only way to do that was get acceptance by the commissions, which led to them adding a bunch of rules. Originally there were very, very few rules & no time limits... pretty much anything went except for biting & eye gouging.
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it's not a bar fight unless there are some long-neck bottles involved.
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Originally posted by john9001
it's not a bar fight unless there are some long-neck bottles involved.
Pick up my beer for a bar fight and your getting a spiked heal in the back of your head.
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I am a chain belt in Kung Fu. Bruce Lee was my teacher. Watch this. Woop! HAA! Agai! Woop! Woop! Agai! Ayahhhh! Woop! Iguh! Hiya! Woo! Woo! Ha! Ha! Woop! Agai! Bin! Ha! Haaaaaaaaaa... Watah! Tidah! That's called the quart of blood technique. You do that, a quart of blood will drop out of a person's body."
Trading places. Great movie.
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Originally posted by dmf
Pick up my beer for a bar fight and your getting a spiked heal in the back of your head.
:rofl i could use someone like you to cover my back.
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Originally posted by john9001
:rofl i could use someone like you to cover my back.
Why, somebody after you?
You know that we women usually sit back and watch you guys beat each other like dogs over the girl that neither of you are going home with
:rofl
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Originally posted by JB88
been thinking about practicing a martial art. the most appealing to my sensibilities so far has been aikido. my interest in this form stems from my desire to learn a purely defensive art. i have no desire to learn how to hurt others for fun and profit.
i am reading a book right now called Aikido and the dynamic sphere. very well written and it is quite informative. of course, i know that i will not really learn to practice it with a book, but feel that i may come to know its essence.
unfortunately i have not found anywhere in my area that teaches it, so i cannot be sure.
i know a man nearby who teaches chin-na, (a chinese form which uses control or locking to subdue opponents) he is well respected in the area and is associated with some even more respected teachers in the area.
an aquaintance of mine has invited me to join him at a class and i may try it.
(my only real concern on that level is that the chin-na instructor once had a thing for my girlfriend and he got shot down. i fear this may realize itself in the business end of a lock/break. eek.)
anywho. i am curious about the differences between forms and practices (particularly between aikido and chin-na, but certainly not limited to then.
i am also wondering if any of you have any specific knowledge of martial arts that you might wish to share or suggestions about which might go well with my philosophy.
IMO, Best bet, take a class from someone in the military or police. A LOT of USA martial arts classes aren't much more then cool dance rutines, far from the real thing. Do it in class and doing it in RL are two completely different worlds. If you want to protect yourself, gear up to hurt someone, intensly. IMO Survival means the other guy doesn't get up.
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nelson.. in real life the jujitsu guy or boxer will go down and if he is against a strong opponent he will probly end up losing the wrestling match on the floor... if he is bigger and stronger and more agressive... he will win... if the other guy doesn't get help or find a weapon.
I was in a lot of barroom fights.... I wouldn't say that my boxing experiance helped all that much.
The way I won most barroom fights was that I was the first guy in the fight to realize that there was gonna be a fight.
I do think that losing a few makes you very determined to win. Some experiance in some form of fighting skill may help you to realize that second place is a very dangerous place.
lazs
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That is more or less what im saying.
The first guy who gets in the first good "hit" usually wins, and if that person has some training then its more than likley that it will be over in seconds. The first guy who gets to punch first is also the same guy that first realises that its going to be a fight.
I have only been in about five fights myself as i tend to walk away or calm the situation down rather than fight. In all of those five fights I have seen that the **** is about to hit the fan and taken action sooner than the other guys. The funny part about that is that I have only once in those five times had any use for the defencive moves that my martial art focuses mostly on. I have never had to kick anyone for that matter either.
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I guess we are agreeing.. it is not martial arts that makes you react so much as it is street smarts. I was a boxer but a roundhouse punch form a farmer is harder than my best. Many people could punch harder than me.
If I don't see it then it is over.... if I am grabbed or knocked down it becomes a wrestling match.
I can think of only a few standup fights where boxing helped. even then.. I was grabbed. I have kicked guys who trained to kick... they didn't kick me cause they were on the floor and dazed... they were still moving tho.
bigger and stronger counts for a lot.... aggressive counts for even more. skill.... very little in most cases. least the ones I have seen.
I did see one seal take out three guys in a short time once but... I wasn't one of em and they were drunk and none of em seen it coming.
lazs
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The thing i think martial arts gives you in a fight like that is speed, power and reflexes. If you do some sparring then you can also take a hit better than some others but if you are hit in a good place then that wont matter.
If you dont see it coming, if you are drunk/reduced reflexes, caught off-guard or is afraid then none of the benefits of knowing martial arts helps you any at all. You will be on the floor with your black belt and look like an idiot.
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It is very easy to get hit no matter how good your reflexes in a street fight situation.
no training on earth will prepare you for the determination of some of the people you will run into.
you may have some increased chance if you are a student of a fighting art but it is small compared to all the things that make up street combat.
in my opinion and experiance that is.
lazs
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It's pretty easy to turn most fights into a wrestling match. Like the guy did in the video, duck your head and charge. I've seen more than a few fist fights devolve this way.
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"you may have some increased chance if you are a student of a fighting art "
I'd say "will" instead of "may" here.
A friend of mine is a blackbelter BTW. He dabbled with boxing and after only 3 months of training he was in the country league. KO'ed anyone he came near to!
I think he might have done that to the guy in the video as well ;)
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lazs how hard is it punch from your wheelchair?
you have a valid point though once the fighting commences I don't care who you are you're going to get hit. it really boils down to physical conditioning and size. I rather fight a 5'-1" tenth degree than a 7'-1" anybody, even though a knee breaks just as easily for anyone.
if the shotokan practioner would have remembered to utilize tai sabaki the gutter fighter may have had to perform an additional charge or two. having said that I have found myself in plenty of wrestling matches only to afterwards say I should have done this and such.
the point is valid as well though, if a guy wants to grapple with you, you're gonna grapple.
here's the thing though the older we become the more likely we become willing to just apply between 3-4lbs with an index finger and allow the attorneys to sort out the details later.
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seen lots of fights... there is no magic art that will save you.
Be quick and strong and bigger and faster and more willing to be a sociopath in the fight and you will beat the best martial artist in the world who isn't these things.
I once had a woman karate expert admit to a group of women that fighting me would result in her being maimed. They were crushed... they somehow believed that a few tricks could turn a 100 lb woman into a formidable adversary for a 180 lb ex boxer biker with a mean streak.
She had shown em a hold that bent back the fingers or some such... they asked her why she didn't just do that to me... she was right in explaining that even if she could get in that position that it was likely that I would allow her to break my fingers and still beat her to death.
This is correct in my opinion... I have fought with broken hands many times... ditto for nose and even once with a cracked rib for a short time (not recomended).
I am not particularly tough compared to the people I was around in those days. Certainly tho.... I was miles ahead of some robe wearing class attender who had never had to have a buddy set his fingers after a fight or some ex vietnam medic set his nose after one.
I'm not kidding... there are people out there who are a hell of a lot tougher and meaner than that and... they enjoy hurting people.
If you are smart you will do as nelson says and try to get out of the whole thing.
storch jokes about wheelchairs but the only wheelchair I ever want to be in is the one that they make you use when checking out of a hospital.
Fights are a lot more fun to talk about later than to be in unless you are one sick mother. I hope the last one I was in was the last one I will ever be in. Maybe I am getting old after all but....I have no interest in playing at fighting these days.
lazs
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"Be quick and strong and bigger and faster and more willing to be a sociopath in the fight and you will beat the best martial artist in the world who isn't these things.
I once had a woman karate expert admit to a group of women that fighting me would result in her being maimed. They were crushed... they somehow believed that a few tricks could turn a 100 lb woman into a formidable adversary for a 180 lb ex boxer biker with a mean streak."
You must mean a lot bigger, and the martial arts person is usually...faster, - don't mix faster with first.
As for the weight difference, 100 lbs woman is on the verge of starving, while a 180 lbs man, all due respect, is not a big bull. (I'm somewhat slim, and yet 190). The difference in size is more normally like.....130 to 180.
Well, anyway, guys are normally much stronger, so this is another issue, - but a guy vs a woman is normally something of nuts, mugging, rape attempt, or home violence. In all cases, some studies of martial arts cannot be anything but good for the woman.
Now the finger trick might work on somebody not too serious, but you must know that there are many more meaner things to do. Even a woman of 100 lbs may be able to stun a 200 lbs guy and get away. Even stun you and grab your gun :D
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I agree with lazs in many points above.
You can be a master in whatever discipline you choose... when it comes down to it you either are the bigger person (weight/muscle ratio) or the better armed one or the one with the better luck (aka 'surprise' factor).
A tazer or pistol and good common sense is much better than being a black belt ninja nowaday.
Remember: Indiana Jones shot the guy with the scimitar the first time ... and the 2nd time around he RAN away from him.
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well... I guess that no matter what I say or no matter what you see in real life you will cling to the notion that wearing the robe for a few years will make you bulletproof or somehow give you an advantage.
they won't make you faster than the speed freak or tougher than the drunk biker or more able to take punishment than the hopped up bull rider.
No matter what the guy in the clean little "dojo" tells you or the tricks he shows you in the sterile atmosphere of said dojo... it is like going to the carnivale and watching a guy weld up an aluminum picture frame with his bic lighter and a magic welding rod.
there are no magic beans in this case... experiance isn't gotten in a gym dressed in glorified pajamas one night a week. It sure as hell won't hurt and it might give you some tips to help but you will probly be a deer in the headlights when the real situation comes with muscles that the ice water has made girly weak....
If you end up in a wresling match then everything you learned will be out the window. Bigger guys... tougher guys.. two or more guys... it's all bad news. Guys who know that you are in a fight before you do...
Often, the philosophy of defense is a hindrance in the real world... You want to figure out how to get away first and how to stop the other guy/guys from moving as a last resort. A kick is for when you have knocked em down and they are still moving.
If you can catch a ball thrown to you then you are plenty fast. How you use it is all up to you and in your own head. You don't get faster by years of martial arts... you get slower because you are years older.
They, the bad guys won't let you change into your pajamas and they have no idea of who you are except that they are gonna hurt you.
You learn what parts of the human body are tender by being a human for a while. You learn what parts you may be able to get at by experiance.... experiance lets you find what works while you are working.
One of my friends was a seal and I was surprised that he pretty much thought the same as I did. I never talked to many other seals but that is what this guy believed. I seen him fight once... he won... it was about like watching those ultimate fights on tv or any good bar fight. He was not a big guy and managed to win with about a 30 lb handicap but... he was in one hell of a lot better shape. Like the ultimate fights.. he fought and struck with closed fist in what I recognized as a loose boxing style.
lazs
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Practicing katas, etc... are good for physical conditioning and helping with reaction time. Martial arts can only make one a better fighter though if fighting is practiced. Skill can be learned but talent and instinct will almost always separate the losers and winners in a physical fight.
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In the ultimate fighting, when there were no rules other than biting, the karate guys always got their arses handed to them with hardly even a fight.
One guy wore his white robe and the other guy grabbed the robe and used it to hold on to him while he beat the crap out of him.
That Gracie guy, who won a few of the UFC championships when there was not separate weight class, weighed onlly about 175 pounds and nobody could beat him. He was a greko-roman wrestler. Those guys were the ones that had the overall best chance because they knew how to grab onto the other guy get him on the ground and tie them in knots while beating the crap out of them.
The Karate guys never had a chance in those fights.
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Originally posted by lukster
Practicing katas, etc... are good for physical conditioning and helping with reaction time. Martial arts can only make one a better fighter though if fighting is practiced. Skill can be learned but talent and instinct will almost always separate the losers and winners in a physical fight.
Oh katas.
So few people that practise katas has a clue about what they are doing. You see them do the moves and some do them perfectly, but they just do the moves. The best way to see if someone has a clue about what he is doing is to watch his eyes and head. If you can see that he is looking at a virtual oponent and that him and his moves are infact trying to deal with that oponent then he is doing it correctly. So many people do the moves just to do the moves... you might aswell do a dance aor just wave your arms randomly around.
When teaching a kata you should always act as an oponent and explain to the students what the moves are there for... they are not there for you to look good.
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Originally posted by ByeBye
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That Gracie guy, who won a few of the UFC championships when there was not separate weight class, weighed onlly about 175 pounds and nobody could beat him. He was a greko-roman wrestler.
Gracie was a brazilina jiu-jitsu guy. Not a wrestler.
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who would win out of Bruce Lee and Incredible Hulk?
i favour hulk 8-1 but if he had trouble transforming at the moment of truth bruce would crush his windpipe with his little fingers.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
who would win out of Bruce Lee and Incredible Hulk?
i favour hulk 8-1 but if he had trouble transforming at the moment of truth bruce would crush his windpipe with his little fingers.
Since Bruce Lee whipped Chuck Norris I think it's obvious the Hulk would have his green bellybutton handed to him.
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cant argue with that conclusion lukster
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
who would win out of Bruce Lee and Incredible Hulk?
i favour hulk 8-1 but if he had trouble transforming at the moment of truth bruce would crush his windpipe with his little fingers.
no way is way.
bruce lee hands down.
:aok
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Originally posted by lukster
Practicing katas, etc... are good for physical conditioning and helping with reaction time. Martial arts can only make one a better fighter though if fighting is practiced. Skill can be learned but talent and instinct will almost always separate the losers and winners in a physical fight.
that is correct. if you are participating for stretching, balance , exercise then any dojo will do.
if you want to learn to fight then you must train where fighting occurs. our students who choose to participate in saturday morning fighting must have attended at least two classes during the previous week and then they qualify to participate for kumite. during kumite the students spar continuosly sometimes 1 v 1 other times 1 v multiples. they must spar against people larger or smaller, male or female. no respect is given to size or gender.
kumite is full contact and blood flows. there is an off duty paramedic at every session.
saturday kumite is where we allow neighborhood kids to attend and fight if they want to. it is our most popular class.
the kids that earn belts in our dojo are well prepared to meet the realities that they may encounter on the streets.
the only rule we have about kumite is that a student must attain his or her yellow belt before being invited to participate.
our dojo is located in a tough working class town and in a tough neighborhood within that town. most of our students are from that neighborhood. most of these kids already kick bellybutton when they arrive. some of our students come from more affluent communities but are the children of parents from that town. those parents want their sons and daughters to be somewhat tougher than the kids they go to school with.
anyway in case anyone is interested here's the website for the international HQ
http://www.sanseigoju.com
http://www.houseofdragonsdojo.com/home.htm
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I used to practice judo.Have orange belt( which would be something like 3rd grade).It's a lot of fun if you have time and will.
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You an instructor in this Storch?
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anyone recall the embarassment of ali fighting the jap martial artist when he was on the comeback trail? I think ali beat the guy in the first round and was never even touched.
nelson...you should watch the early ulimate fighting matches... they are on DVD I think. I recall that they were bar fights with no real rules... The guy watching with me was a martial artist and he kept saying that this guy or that should use the pressure point of death or the sleeper or the spitting cobra nut twister or whatever...
Truth was.. those guys losing had many years wearing the pajamas.. in the end... they now teach these guys boxing and wrestling. except this one big flabby looking indian guy who they didn't teach anything because he was too busy kicking the crap out of everyone.
I haven't seen that many matches but I recognize the fights as being barroom... course.. now they are getting more like wrestling matches since they have rounds and such.
If they have enough rules then.... it will be a pajama party martial arts demo.
lazs
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no angus I was a participant up until about a year ago, fighting the 16-18 yr olds got tough for this old guy
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Another video for the ones who think BJJ sucks :D
Aikido master with 200-0 wins against BJJ purple belt (http://www.dump.com/gygwe/)
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Originally posted by lazs2
nelson...you should watch the early ulimate fighting matches... they are on DVD I think. I recall that they were bar fights with no real rules... The guy watching with me was a martial artist and he kept saying that this guy or that should use the pressure point of death or the sleeper or the spitting cobra nut twister or whatever...
Actually the first couple UFCs were basically an infomercial for Gracie Jiu-Jitsu. Royce Gracie tapped & choked out a whole bunch of bar fighters. No death touches or anything like that, just good jiu-jitsu against guys with no real training.
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Indy... I missed those ones. the ones I saw were latter and no one was using the sleeper or whatever... some choke holds and people going out but... seen that in bars and no one was wearing pajamas at the time.
The fights I seen were basic brawls and slugfests... then they sorta evolved into better boxing and wrestling and some of the guys who practiced kicking for a lifetime would kick once in a blue moon.. even more seldom... they would do damage with the kick..
course... I seen guys kick in bars too and once in a great while they would do damage.
lazs