Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Widewing on November 16, 2006, 09:47:50 AM
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In the description of the changes in the new update to be released today, I saw that tail hooks can onlt be lowered when the gear are down. Does this apply only to the F4Us?
I ask because the SBD, SB2C, TBM, F4F-4, FM-2 and F6F-5 tail hooks were completely independent of the landing gear, with separate controls. All could lower the hook with the gear up. In fact, lowering the hook with the gear up was a Navy requirement. It was needed in the event that a plane was unable to lower its landing gear and would make a belly landing on the flight deck. They preferred to catch a wire and keep the plane out of the barrier, and thus reduce the possibility of getting through the barrier and into the planes parked forward. While the F4U's hook was attached to the tail wheel assembly, it did have its own actuator and dashpot. I do not know if the hook could be lowered with the tailwheel up, but I would think the Navy would have insisted that it must.
(http://www.sb2chelldiver.org/images/Wartime/04-0317a.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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I don't think it mattered in the previous version of the game whether the tailhook was down or not; whether or not I lowered it, my aircraft still stopped within a few feet of landing on the carrier deck. Hopefully, that's changed; I haven't tried the new patch yet.
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WW,
I'm glad you posted this, because it had me wondering "why?" as well.
It is still common practice today to have the hook down when returning to the boat.
Thanks
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Originally posted by 1Duke1
WW,
...snip...
boat.
...snip...
Thanks
BOAT????
BOAT????
Boats are what fishermen use on little bitty lakes.
Boats are how crewman reach the REAL vessel, the SHIP.
It's rare that I get to contribute anything in this forum...I couldnt let it pass...:)
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Simaril, I have heard that although sailors know them as ships, Naval Aviators call them boats and occasionally are gently reminded that the pointy end is the front.
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Originally posted by Simaril
BOAT????
BOAT????
Boats are what fishermen use on little bitty lakes.
Boats are how crewman reach the REAL vessel, the SHIP.
Friendly reminder that little boats of the undersea kind pwnd more "real vessels" than ships did.
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Originally posted by Simaril
BOAT????
BOAT????
Boats are what fishermen use on little bitty lakes.
Boats are how crewman reach the REAL vessel, the SHIP.
[/size]
Naval Aviators have a tendancy of calling the carrier "The Boat" as a good natured barb to their fellow Blue Water Sailors.
If you know any hard core or long time veteran sailors ask them what would happen if you would call the ship a "Boat" in front of an Officer or Petty Officer. ;)
! :aok
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Must be aircraft specific. Last night I landed a Zeke on a CV. I lowered the hook prior to lowering the landing gear. No problems.
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I tried to land a Zeke last night with a damaged left gear from a combat collision. Since I was HOPING to land gear up and hook down only, I was frustrated I HAD to land with the right gear down only.
What would of been a belly-down landing with the hook grabbing - I ended up landing on the right wheel, then onto the left wing, cartwheeled right off the carrier on the left. Weeeeee
Can we please allow hooks down without gear?
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Originally posted by Simaril
BOAT????
BOAT????
Boats are what fishermen use on little bitty lakes.
Boats are how crewman reach the REAL vessel, the SHIP.
[/size]
Boats...they're those things that float out in the water. Sometimes they put a flat roof on them so they can also serve a purpose. It's also the place I kept my stereo for when I wasn't flying.:aok
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Originally posted by Mister Fork
I tried to land a Zeke last night with a damaged left gear from a combat collision. Since I was HOPING to land gear up and hook down only, I was frustrated I HAD to land with the right gear down only.
What would of been a belly-down landing with the hook grabbing - I ended up landing on the right wheel, then onto the left wing, cartwheeled right off the carrier on the left. Weeeeee
Can we please allow hooks down without gear?
Why didn't you just leave the gear up? A Zero can fly slow and with gear up just fine on a CV.
:confused:
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
Why didn't you just leave the gear up? A Zero can fly slow and with gear up just fine on a CV.
:confused:
That's not the point. If it could do it...why change it? If I had to land a zero on a carrier in WWII with the gear up I would want the hook if i could get it.
To my (limited) knowledge the F4U should be the only airplane the hook/gear thing applies to though I'm sure WW's theory is right...you should be able to get the hook down (even with a tailwheel freefall of some sort) independent of the main gear.
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Agreed Golfer. I was after realism: I don't land on airfields wheels up so I can re-up quickly. I cycle the airfield at the proper entry point, cross over 1 km back into the final landing pattern, flaps down 5-15 degrees, wheels down, and trim in my landing. I'm a realismtard. :D
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HTC needs a gear warning horn. under 160mph throttle at idle you get a horn if the gear isn't down. That would discourage that :)
I think maybe I subconsiously worry that one day I'll really leave the wheels up and bring my airplane to a screeching scratching halt. Wonder if I just hop out and smile the passengers will even know the difference?:O
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Originally posted by Golfer
That's not the point. If it could do it...why change it? If I had to land a zero on a carrier in WWII with the gear up I would want the hook if i could get it.
To my (limited) knowledge the F4U should be the only airplane the hook/gear thing applies to though I'm sure WW's theory is right...you should be able to get the hook down (even with a tailwheel freefall of some sort) independent of the main gear.
I thought his point was that he HAD to land with gear down? I merely suggested that this was UNTRUE.
I have no knowledge of the gear/hook systems in WWII so I am unable to comment on that subject as of now, but maybe it was done for gameplay reasons and not for historical accuracy.
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In the quote in your post it says:
Since I was HOPING to land gear up and hook down only, I was frustrated I HAD to land with the right gear down only.
In this game he had to in order to use his tailhook. In most if not all carrier aircraft you can put the hook down separately from the landing gear.
That only makes sense and I'm sure it's I/A/W navy regulations to have the hook come down separately from the gear in the interest of safety.
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saw a bumpersticker in traffic that years later still makes me chuckle--
"there are only 2 types of vessels in the ocean.. submarines and targets":lol
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Brooke posted this page from the F4U pilot's manual that shows that the F4Us had a mechanical interlock to prevent lowering the tail hook when the gear were up. If the tail hook was lowered while the gear was stowed, it would be forced through the tail wheel doors.
(http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/misc/aces_high/f4uGearOperation.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Golfer
In the quote in your post it says:
In this game he had to in order to use his tailhook. In most if not all carrier aircraft you can put the hook down separately from the landing gear.
That only makes sense and I'm sure it's I/A/W navy regulations to have the hook come down separately from the gear in the interest of safety.
In this game, yes, he has to put gear down to put the hook down. Okay, we agree on that. Since he knew his gear was damaged, why would he still decided to put it down in hopes of the hook catching? A less riskier move would have been a gear up, hook up landing. It's much easier. He made a decision and it was a more riskier decision. Instead of blaming himself, he blamed the game.
He did not have to use the hook. Once he understands that, he can then understand life alittle more. :)
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Why in the world would you land on a carrier gear up and NOT use your hook?
And if you think landing on a carrier is easy, check out these videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUYtUjigJpg&mode=related&search=
I think it's SOP that if your gear is not functioning, then you land with your hook down too.
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I could not see a "hook" in most of those WWII carrier crashs, although the first plane ( no port gear) stopped quickly as it left viewable screen and the plane that stopped on the port edge of the flight deck and started to burn seemed to stop very quickly after bouncing like it did grab a wire, and after it stopped, did look like there was a hook down, unless that is the tail wheel strut, and the wheel was torn off. I could not see a wheel.
The one that flipped and broke in half was very clearly not in hook down position, unless the arresting hook was broken/torn off prior to the flip. Looking at it very closely, there appears to be a wheel attached to what I at first took to be the arresting hook.
Course my eyes are old.
When in doubt, use the island to stop yourself.
Thanks for posting the link, Mister Fork.
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Originally posted by Mister Fork
Why in the world would you land on a carrier gear up and NOT use your hook?
And if you think landing on a carrier is easy, check out these videos: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qUYtUjigJpg&mode=related&search=
I think it's SOP that if your gear is not functioning, then you land with your hook down too.
Why would I land on a CV with my gear up and NOT use my hook? Well, if my gear was damaged, i.e. left or right was gone, I would belly it without a hook. If I wanted to use a hook in that same senario, I'd run a high risk of rolling off the deck because I have to put whatever gear down that I have working.
Cool video of REAL LIFE CV LANDINGS gone bad.I still think landing on a carrier is "easy". BTW, "easy" is your word, not mine.
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Originally posted by E25280
Friendly reminder that little boats of the undersea kind pwnd more "real vessels" than ships did.
It goes without saying. There are two kinds of sea vessels: Submarines and targets.
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Originally posted by rshubert
It goes without saying. There are two kinds of sea vessels: Submarines and targets.
As stated by FBplmmr much earlier in this thread regarding a bumper sticker he had seen. There is a WWII Vet who was a torpedoman who comes into the shop to have his truck serviced. Has the same bumper sticker.
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Originally posted by HB555
I could not see a "hook" in most of those WWII carrier crashs, although the first plane ( no port gear) stopped quickly as it left viewable screen and the plane that stopped on the port edge of the flight deck and started to burn seemed to stop very quickly after bouncing like it did grab a wire, and after it stopped, did look like there was a hook down, unless that is the tail wheel strut, and the wheel was torn off. I could not see a wheel.
The one that flipped and broke in half was very clearly not in hook down position, unless the arresting hook was broken/torn off prior to the flip. Looking at it very closely, there appears to be a wheel attached to what I at first took to be the arresting hook.
Course my eyes are old.
When in doubt, use the island to stop yourself.
Thanks for posting the link, Mister Fork.
All of these would have the hook down if functional. WWII planes were very light (relatively speaking) so have much smaller hooks than modern jets so, given the resolution of the video, I'd guess you simply can't see the hook or the hook wasn't working. If bellying onto the flight deck (especially a straight deck carrier) was your only option then you will put the hook down because the alternative is to slide into the barricade, the aircraft parked on the bow or the island. The planes that hit the island most likely either had non-functional hooks or the hook skipped the wires.
Nowdays, given the size and weight of modern jets there's a good chance of ejecting alongside the CV rather than risk splattering the fight deck with burning debris from a heavily damaged aircraft unless there was no option (such as a COD with no ejection seats or a failed ejection system) or it was just a single gear that failed to extend and lock. Incidently, when taking the barricade it's standard practice to put the hook down.
Last, flew a Zeke quite a bit last night. Hook comes down no problem without the gear. Maybe they changed this back with the last patch.
Edit: Forgot to mention that there are no modern CV aircraft that require the gear to be down before lowering and it is standard practice to lower the hook before coming into the break and well before the gear is lowered. We usually lowered it before departing holding. It's surprisingly easy to forget and will cost you a bottle to the LSO if you roll out of final with it up.