Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Gunslinger on November 16, 2006, 09:42:11 PM
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Ok so don't flame me because I'm at least asking around before formulating an opinion about this....
But, after being tased can you stand up and walk within a minute or so?
NSFW (language)
Here is a liberal hippie college student getting tased for resisting the police. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5g7zlJx9u2E&eurl=)
The story behind it so far is it was after 11PM and the kid refused to show his ID card in the library when asked. The librarian called the campus cops, the kid refused to cooperate and leave and got tased.
again my question in relation to the video, the police seem to not want to drag the kid out and want him to walk out. OK, understandable for safety reasons. They then ask him after being tased to stand up and the kid repeatedly refuses and repeatedly get's tased.
You'd think a bright college kid would realize after a few jolts that when the police want him to stand up and say "we will tase you if you don't" that he should expect to get tased if he doesn't comply. SO i'm asking does anyone know if he would be physically able?
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My son pleaded and cajoled and finally got my brother (the Sheriff's deputy) to taze him.
He got up and walked away with little trouble.
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Yes you can.
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It depends on the person, kinda like "can you stand after I hit you with a roundhouse right"?
Mike Tyson, probably yes..Michael Fox, probably no.
shamus
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looks like this guy did (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQ7WEsirjG8&mode=related&search=)
My opinion has been formed.
Dirty liberal hippie....wrong
Police....right
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The greatest advantage of being tazed (as the target) is that once it's over, it's over and you're absolutely fine. I was a bit tingly and had a burn where the probe was, but nothing besides that.
Pepper spray, on the other hand... hours of misery.
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Originally posted by Tarmac
The greatest advantage of being tazed (as the target) is that once it's over, it's over and you're absolutely fine. I was a bit tingly and had a burn where the probe was, but nothing besides that.
Pepper spray, on the other hand... hours of misery.
But you could honestly stand up on your own if instructed to do so after being tased?
What do you think of the video?
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Owned (http://youtube.com/watch?v=pwIPlLg25ZY) :rofl
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Originally posted by RAIDER14
Owned (http://youtube.com/watch?v=pwIPlLg25ZY) :rofl
I like this one too
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WcQ501U6pA0&search=taser
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I've seen cows get tazed and stand right up afterwards.
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I have tazed dozens of people, not with the hand held "stun guns", but the 2 darts that hook in and deliver a nice jolt when you pull the trigger. With the darts in, you can shock the poop out of most people and keep them down. They literally drop like a sack of potatoes, some urinate.
Others, though, can stand right away, even run... I've had to break the darts free on several occasions and go for a 2nd shot. One dude I tazed stood there, looked me in the eye and said "Yea, I feel it"... he was on PCP though.
It also depends a lot on how good you hit em with the darts, one fires low, the other high to get a good spread and widen the area of shock, if they hit too close / far it doesnt drop em as well. Same if the hooks only snag clothes.
Once the fish hooks are in, an MD or nurse must remove them.. although there might have been an occasion or two the darts were pulled out by accident, which looks like it hurts really bad.
The training class to be tazer authorized was 4 hours with a BS test at the end.
Edit: Usually after getting shot & shocked people beg, cry, scream to not be shocked again, are willing to comply and stand, with help, up after being cuffed. While its possible the dude in the video couldn't stand, it looked to me like he was putting on a good show for the crowd.
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Originally posted by Shamus
It depends on the person, kinda like "can you stand after I hit you with a roundhouse right"?
Mike Tyson, probably yes..Michael Fox, probably no.
shamus
nah, tyson was always considered a glass jaw guy
maybe Larry Holmes or Larry Fine vs. larry king or leisure suit larry?
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The question really is....After the next screw up with the law this liberal hippie has and he is sen't to prison, will he be able to stand after an anal pounding????
screw this kid...no sympathy what so ever
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I wonder if I get moded if I cut n' paste my own text. :eek: ;)
"Use of force to physically control someone, well that's what "arrest" is. Use of or threat of pain to control someone when no one is in danger, I think that is immoral.
He wasn't threatening anyone he was just disobeying. He didn't have to stand up, they could have picked him up. Yes it would be a pain in the ass, but there you have itI think tasers have just made cops lazier. If not that, than physically incapable people are becoming cops because they can rely on the taser...maybe both. And with the reliance on the weapon to force people to comply comes a problem of dehumanization...
"The officers used the "drive stun" setting in the Taser"
...right, just like a cattle prod."
- Thrawn...Jenius.
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Quote of the day :
Using the word liberal hippie make you look like a conservative cretin.
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I gotta say it depends on the person. I've never been tazed (Thank God) but I've been hit with electric fences and cattle prods while working cattle. Those are usually short zaps under a second kinda like grabbing a spark plug wire. You can recover from those pretty quick.
I can't imagine getting a long zap of a couple seconds much less multiple ones and then be expected to stand and walk. They should have just hog tied him.
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Originally posted by straffo
Quote of the day :
Using the word liberal hippie make you look like a conservative cretin.
unless of course your subject is in fact a dirty liberal hippie putting on a show for his fellow collegians.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I wonder if I get moded if I cut n' paste my own text. :eek: ;)
"Use of force to physically control someone, well that's what "arrest" is. Use of or threat of pain to control someone when no one is in danger, I think that is immoral.
He wasn't threatening anyone he was just disobeying. He didn't have to stand up, they could have picked him up. Yes it would be a pain in the ass, but there you have itI think tasers have just made cops lazier. If not that, than physically incapable people are becoming cops because they can rely on the taser...maybe both. And with the reliance on the weapon to force people to comply comes a problem of dehumanization...
"The officers used the "drive stun" setting in the Taser"
...right, just like a cattle prod."
- Thrawn...Jenius.
Yes and if they hurt the kid while dragging him out because he wanted to act like my 4 year old in a store and throw a fit they would be responsible for that to.
He would not have been given any pain had he stood up and complied with instructions.
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he was waiting for the media cameras to show up.
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I don't even get into the whole political thing and I have to say that the kid got what he deserved. He was probably some spoiled little rich boy who thought the cops wouldn't touch him:t Then when they did his perfect world fell apart. I also feel he didn't want to be arrested so he thought by laying there they might just...go away? I learned a long time ago when a man with a gun(tazer) ask you to do something, you do it.
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That's quite the fantasy world you have going there SuperDud.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
That's quite the fantasy world you have going there SuperDud.
did you watch the video. The kid is putting on a show plain and simple.
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Once the fish hooks are in, an MD or nurse must remove them.. although there might have been an occasion or two the darts were pulled out by accident, which looks like it hurts really bad.
We pulled them out ourselves and let paramedics deal with the results. Letting a hospital do it is a waste of time at the hospital. It is not a must, it is up to the individuals dept.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
did you watch the video. The kid is putting on a show plain and simple.
I was referring to, "He was probably some spoiled little rich boy who thought the cops wouldn't touch him Then when they did his perfect world fell apart. I also feel he didn't want to be arrested so he thought by laying there they might just...go away?".
Dud, has know ideal what the guys upbring was like, or his motivations. He's playing make-believe.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I was referring to, "He was probably some spoiled little rich boy who thought the cops wouldn't touch him Then when they did his perfect world fell apart. I also feel he didn't want to be arrested so he thought by laying there they might just...go away?".
Dud, has know ideal what the guys upbring was like, or his motivations. He's playing make-believe.
He's also making an assumption based on past experiences. Based on my own experiences he's probably right.
If this where a fantasy world the kid would have been injected at a very young age with a special organism that enables him to have mind control abilities. In wich case he could have avoided all of this by waving his hand and saying "you don't need to see my ID". That to me is fantasy.;)
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Ok so don't flame me because I'm at least asking around before formulating an opinion about this....
But, after being tased can you stand up and walk within a minute or so?
As soon as the current stops you regain full mobility. This is why it's important to gain control of the subject prior to stopping the current.
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What a crybaby. I've never been tased but I've been bit with high voltage and knocked on my bellybutton a few times.
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Whether or not he was putting on a show, there's something I haven't seen mentioned here, and it's the circumstances of the tazing.
He was in the library, they asked him to show his ID, he didn't have it, so they asked him to leave. He was on his way out walking to the door, the campus cops intercepted him and grabbed his arm. He said "Let go of my arm" and shrugged them off (still walking to the exit) and then they tazed him.
Is it appropriate to electroshock people who are complying with the order to leave?
Second, when watching the video, at one point a student asks one of the officers for his badge number, and the officer threatens to taze him if he doesn't leave. It's inappropriate for a police officer to threaten someone with physical harm for asking for a badge number, in fact I think that it's technically considered a form of assault.
Whether or not he's putting on a show or not (Like Michael J Fox was putting on a show?) the fact is that he was tazed while complying and that the officer threatened someone for making a legal request.
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The video didn't show what happened before he got tased and if you interfere with police preforming their duties you risk being arrested.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Whether or not he was putting on a show, there's something I haven't seen mentioned here, and it's the circumstances of the tazing.
He was in the library, they asked him to show his ID, he didn't have it, so they asked him to leave. He was on his way out walking to the door, the campus cops intercepted him and grabbed his arm. He said "Let go of my arm" and shrugged them off (still walking to the exit) and then they tazed him.
When the video opened, I heard a young man yelling "don't touch me" followed shortly by the taser. We don't know and didn't see what happened beforehand. (Why would a librarian call the cops on a student who forgot his ID but said he'd leave?)
After the first jolt, THEN I heard him go on about how he said he would leave, abuse of power, Patriot Act, come witness the violence inherent in the system, I'm being repressed, I didn't vote for you, and watery tarts flinging scimitars about is no basis for a system of Government.
As for the badge number thing, the cop was kinda busy and the way that crowd was forming I don't blame him for getting nasty. Mob mentality.
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Originally posted by VOR
As for the badge number thing, the cop was kinda busy and the way that crowd was forming I don't blame him for getting nasty. Mob mentality.
With respect, I don't think "getting nasty" and threatening people making legal requests is the right way to handle it. If he had told everyone "Back away, and my badge number is XXXXXX" that would have been one thing, but his language indicated that he was unwilling to provide his # and was using the threat of tazing to discourage the completely appropriate request.
In regards to the video not showing what happened before, we only have the multiple eye-witness reports.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
With respect, I don't think "getting nasty" and threatening people making legal requests is the right way to handle it. If he had told everyone "Back away, and my badge number is XXXXXX" that would have been one thing, but his language indicated that he was unwilling to provide his # and was using the threat of tazing to discourage the completely appropriate request.
In regards to the video not showing what happened before, we only have the multiple eye-witness reports.
Point 1: Fair enough, he could have done that and it would have been a better way to handle it. Perhaps he wasn't thinking clearly or with the benefit of hindsight. I'll meet you in the middle here.
Point 2: What did the eye-witnesses say about why the police were called in the first place? Did anyone mention what information the police had about the situation the moment they walked onto the scene?
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They student's name is Mostafa Tabatabainejad, but I'm sure that wasn't a factor.
The only questions is does UCLA go ahead a cut the check now or after the civil suit, which will be filed shortly if not already.
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Probably by coincidence, the plot thickens. ;)
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Originally posted by VOR
Point 2: What did the eye-witnesses say about why the police were called in the first place? Did anyone mention what information the police had about the situation the moment they walked onto the scene?
According to the witnesses and the police, someone from the Library was checking IDs, found that he didn't have his, and asked him to leave. I guess they sent the police to escort him out, and they intercepted him when he was halfway to the door.
Good question about what info the police had, I don't know. If they had been told someone was trespassing, then I'd understand why they would take custody. I guess we'll have to see how the story develops. I don't think it's appropriate for the cops to be convicted in the media, but I can't quite figure out how they could get from 'escort the student who forgot his ID out' to tazing. If there's more to the story, I'm sure it will come out.
One thing is for sure, the other students will probably be a bit more vigilant about carrying their papers after this.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
He was in the library, they asked him to show his ID, he didn't have it, so they asked him to leave. He was on his way out walking to the door, the campus cops intercepted him and grabbed his arm. He said "Let go of my arm" and shrugged them off (still walking to the exit) and then they tazed him.
Where are you getting this information.
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http://ktla.trb.com/news/ktla-uclataser,0,4201981.story?coll=ktla-news-1
http://www.nbc4.tv/news/10325914/detail.html
Here are a couple links...I am sure there are lot's more :)
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I don't see why a taser should be used when it's not necessary. Someone being unwilling isn't a reason to tase in my opinion, especially when there's multiple cops around the person in question. Taser is not an obedience tool, but a non-lethal weapon against a person who's actions could result in physical injury to someone trying to apprehend the person. A trained police officer should be fully able to handle a reluctant person without the use of weapons, let alone multiple officers against one.
Multiple shocks from a taser can make a person somewhat limp and dazed, not fully able to think straight. I've seen couple of other videos where cops tases a guy plentiful of times and in each video the person subjected to shocks is unable to move at the end. One guy couldn't even get his hands behind his back while laying on the ground. Fortunately the cop finally gave up tasing the person if he didn't do *exactly* as told and cuffed him - I was almost sure the cop would jolt the guy a yet another time if he wouldn't put hands behind his back.
Have cops suddenly became lazy cowards, unable to deal a mildly reluctant person without weapons?
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I don't think they're "lazy cowards", that's far too extreme to infer from the video. I think it's possible that they've adopted the "When you have a hammer, all your problems look like nails" philosophy, but that's a training issue, not a judgement on their character.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
I wonder if I get moded if I cut n' paste my own text. :eek: ;)
"Use of force to physically control someone, well that's what "arrest" is. Use of or threat of pain to control someone when no one is in danger, I think that is immoral.
He wasn't threatening anyone he was just disobeying. He didn't have to stand up, they could have picked him up. Yes it would be a pain in the ass, but there you have itI think tasers have just made cops lazier. If not that, than physically incapable people are becoming cops because they can rely on the taser...maybe both. And with the reliance on the weapon to force people to comply comes a problem of dehumanization...
"The officers used the "drive stun" setting in the Taser"
...right, just like a cattle prod."
- Thrawn...Jenius.
Actually I think this is an example of a fantasy being imposed into the thread. Particularly the part about "He wasn't threatening anyone he was just disobeying. He didn't have to stand up, they could have picked him up." The bit about "no danger" is bovine excrement as arrests are made all the time for situations that did not involve physical danger. In fact physical danger is not required to affect an arrest except in those cases where that was a part of the offense in question like robbery assault etc. and that is only because that is a part of the law that was broken to define the ofense.
The information in the thread about the situation that led up to the tazing is this from the original post. "The story behind it so far is it was after 11PM and the kid refused to show his ID card in the library when asked. The librarian called the campus cops, the kid refused to cooperate and leave and got tased."
Now there has been no other information to indicate there was anything other than the above situation, other than mere speculation by others who were not there. If anyone has an outside source. ie a news story with witness quotes or information from the library staff I'd really like to see it instead of speculation.
Given the information in the first post which has not been shown to be in error to date, it will take the Campus Police more than a couple minutes to respond to a call from the library. The student had ample time to leave upon direction of library staff who are completely within their authority to tell a person to leave the facility. The individual in question did not leave by the time the Police arrived. After being told to leave again by the Police the student refused. He is already now and has been since the first order to leave, tresspassing. That authorizes the Plolice to take enforcement action. That action does not require not mandate they physically pick up an adult sized and functional (physically anyhow) individual and carry them out the door. The individual on the other hand is required to comply with the request and later order to leave the premisis. Failure to do so means the Officers are authorized to take that action which is necessary to remove the indivdual and start the force continuum. Obviously verbal instruction was not successful. It would seem that simply trying to guide the student out of the facility was also unsuccessful given the very loud yelling by the student "don't touch me, don't touch me".
In the clip linked at the start of the thread the student is clearly being loud, disruptive and disobedient to orders. If you listen to the tape in the first 15 seconds you can hear instructions to get up. If the individual was in the process of leaving it's hard to imagine he would be doing so by not being on his feet. There is a bit more "discussion" before the individual is tased at about the 30 second mark. That discussion was at least 2 statements by the Officer that if he (the student) didn't get up he would be tased. The individual says that he was going to leave yet there are repeated orders to get up before the obvious tazer hit.
Prior to that point there is more than sufficient justification to affect an arrest. It would almost certainly have been a citation for disorderly conduct, or disturbing an educational institution or tresspassing.
As to the bit about the badge number. Yep they could have handled that in a slightly different manner such as saying you can have it once the prisoner is secured and outside. It is neither appropriate nor smart to stop what you are doing to comply with a request frm multiple individuals while dealing with the individual the action was all about. Continuing to interfere with the Officers during their actions could also constitute an infraction by those other students.
This is a no win situation for the Officers. If they do not rermove the individual they are not performing their duties. If they have to touch or move the individual by physical means they risk injury to themselves and to the individual assuming of course the individual is not going to go peacefully. Even if he is only pasively resisting, ie. going limp, he is still subject to injury if the Officers do not have sufficient room and manpower to move the "body" in a manner that would safeguard the person being removed and arrested. Doing so with the use of any force is what this person wanted to begin with. He wanted a scene and he got it in a college library.
In short when told to leave he should have left, prior to the Police being called. Once the Police arrived he most defintely should have left. Once being told he would be tased if he didn't get up he should have gotten up and left. He did none of those things. He got tased and arrested. All of his histrionics were obviously an attempt to sway the situation to his control and he lost. He was in the wrong and paid for it.
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Still, this is pretty funny! Ok, so maybe I have a warped sense of humor. I also laughed at the film when the lady is sitting beside the bear at the veteranian's office, and suddenly the bear just turns and attacks her! She looks so shocked!
Like, I didn't know these were cops, or wha... that was a real bear? Duh. Ok, so maybe the campus cops got overzelous, but a little respect and common sense can go a long way to making life easier. I bet that lady never sits beside a bear anymore! Likewise (well, I am not certain this is true), I bet that student never pulls that type of stunt again at the campus Library.
Personally, I really question if this library incident wasn't staged. I don't believe students walk around campus at 11:00 p.m. carrying cameras hoping to film something. Also, someone walking around with a camera filming, or acting like they would film would not be allowed in a library.
But hey, It's funny!
Regards,
Malta
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Originally posted by stantond
Personally, I really question if this library incident wasn't staged. I don't believe students walk around campus at 11:00 p.m. carrying cameras hoping to film something. Also, someone walking around with a camera filming, or acting like they would film would not be allowed in a library.
camera phone
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How long can a camera phone record a video? The clip in the thread is almost 7 minutes long (6 minutes 53 secs). Ive got a 128 meg storage chip in mine and it's only good for about 30 seconds of video IIRC.
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Oh yea, cameraphone. How many cops were there? Looked like between three and six to me. Those were some rowdy students. I guess life is tough there.
Regards,
Malta
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Thanks for the response Mav. I cut n'pasted my post from AGW, where Chairboy's version of events was already in play. I have yet to see it confirmed though.
I've been discussing force continuum with a cop over there. Just about every law enforcement I came across, have the use of less than lethal weapons way the hell up the continuum. Some just before lethal force.
"That action does not require not mandate they physically pick up an adult sized and functional (physically anyhow) individual and carry them out the door. The individual on the other hand is required to comply with the request and later order to leave the premisis."
I think it does, passive resistance is a time honoured form of protest. Under most trespass to property acts, yes a citizen is breaking the law
Joint locks etc. have force component (which is completely legitimate way of getting someone off your property or into a police car), a taser doesn't. The taser or threat of use of a taser, is nothing more than using pain or the threat of pain to get a citizen to comply with an instruction. And that is totally immoral in my books.
I mean if we are okay with cops using pain to get citizens (citizens who may or may not be guilty of any crime) to do as they are told, then the form that the pain infliction takes, and the circumstances that it occurs becomes academic.
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The version I posted was from some news stories, but here's something from a first hand witness that's much more detailed and shows a different side:
http://messageboard.tuckermax.com/showthread.php?t=12336
Sounds like the guy was an asshat. I don't like the use of Tazers and threatening to taze someone for asking for the badge, but it sounds like this guy was hardly the Ghandi he was originally described as.
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Originally posted by Maverick
How long can a camera phone record a video? The clip in the thread is almost 7 minutes long (6 minutes 53 secs). Ive got a 128 meg storage chip in mine and it's only good for about 30 seconds of video IIRC.
But you're an old guy. The hip kids these days have much better equipment.
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that film looks like it was shot using the movie feature on a digital camera.
mine does the same and it's good on maximum settings for about 13 minutes with a 1GB memory card.
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Several reports indicate it was a camera phone, including:
http://dailybruin.ucla.edu/news/articles.asp?id=38958
Not that it really matters, unless you're gullible enough to really fall for the conspiracy theory.
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This thread has earned the time honored advice of Chris Rock.
http://www.ifilm.com/ifilmdetail/2458063
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Thrawn,
Joint locks and other methods of pain compliance require the use of infliction of pain. Kind of lke a taser. They also require that you place yourself inside the suspects threat area, in other words reach and reaction area. That means, using a joint lock that you are taking an apendage like a finger or wrist or elbow and applying pressure to it in a manner that it is not NORMALLY going to bend. In other words you are applying force that in some cases may cause phyical damage such as tendon, ligament dqamage as well as breaking a bone. Remember you have no idea if the individual is double jointed or used to bending joints in an atypical manner either. You can almost bet on it that the person who has had a joint lock or other methods of "pain compliance" used will be back again after seeking medical attention and be claiming injury because of it. Infliction of pain compliance, by definition means the infliction of some type of force up to the actual injury level be it bruising up to breaks and dislocations. You are also now well past the physical arrest point as you would be in the use of a tazer.
You are also putting yourself in a position to be assaulted by the individual whol may be loudly proclaiming that they are not "resisting" but are in fact physically fighting you and refusing to co operate.
Using physical force that can and often does lead to injuries (to both sides) is a bit above a tazer in that once you have to try to grapple with the suspect you are now in a fight with them and not only your physical person is in reach of the suspect, so is your weapon. A review of the appropriate departmental policy in regards to the use of a tazer may also shed some light on when it is used. The policy may state that a tazer should be used on any suspect who is physically resisting before other more injurious methods like joint locks are used.
I've been to the defensive tactics instructor school in my home state. While some things likely have changed (there were no tazers when I went to it) the situations remain the same. Technology has not made a significant difference in the need to take a suspect into custody, it did make it less injurious to the suspect and Officers involved. When you have to grapple and fight using brute force you are far far more likely to have injuries to the suspect and Officers involved than by just zapping them into submission, especially when they are already on the ground.
Grappling also looks (and is) far more violent than the application of a tazer or stun gun. Doing so in a crowd situation where you are applying more than one Officer to the suspect is an invitation to have crowd participation into the party whether by desire to just hurt a cop or misguided loyalty to the one causeing the problem to begin with. If you are on the ground your options to respond to the crowd are very few and the crowd will have your back as a target.
Civil disobedience is also a situation of careful staging and playing to the media by those who are engaged in the alleged "peacefull protest". Ever see any of the tapes of the protestors claiming chemical warfare and torture when a mild tear agent was carefully applied, with a cuetip, as they were physically removed from the location of protest? This guy tried to set up that same kind of situation by inciting others to assist him and inciting to riot is also another criminal offense.
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There's a witness account here:
http://messageboard.tuckermax.com/showthread.php?t=12336
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Demanding a police officer give you his badge number DURING THE PROCESS OF A VIOLENT NON COMPLIANT ARREST is not only stupid and foolish, but at that point his refusal to comply with you and an attending threat to use force if you do not immediately leave the area DOES NOT constitute ANY form of assault. In fact, it makes you guilty of interfering with an officer in the performance of his duty, and that makes you subject to immediate arrest and prosecution for same. AFTER the incident is over and the perp has been fully detained, you can ask for a badge number or whatever suits you. But you CANNOT interfere in an arrest.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
Demanding a police officer give you his badge number DURING THE PROCESS OF A VIOLENT NON COMPLIANT ARREST is not only stupid and foolish
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that although it may indeed be possible to get up and walk after being tazed, he probably wasn't thinking all that clearly.
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Originally posted by Maverick
In short when told to leave he should have left, prior to the Police being called. Once the Police arrived he most defintely should have left. Once being told he would be tased if he didn't get up he should have gotten up and left. He did none of those things. He got tased and arrested. All of his histrionics were obviously an attempt to sway the situation to his control and he lost. He was in the wrong and paid for it.
As you stated, he would have been in criminal trespass when he didn't finally leave after being told by the cops. Actually the cops gave him a second chance because he really could have been in trespass after being told to leave by the staff.
The dude then proceeded into crossing the threshold for "resisting arrest", That's what got him tazed. Campus police, while detested by some students, are still typically sworn officers of the law.
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Originally posted by Sandman
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume that although it may indeed be possible to get up and walk after being tazed, he probably wasn't thinking all that clearly.
It was not the person being tazed that demanded badge numbers. It was a bystander who started moving into the immediate area of the incident, who demanded the badge numbers.
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Originally posted by Captain Virgil Hilts
It was not the person being tazed that demanded badge numbers. It was a bystander who started moving into the immediate area of the incident, who demanded the badge numbers.
That person is a moron. :aok
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Originally posted by Fishu
I don't see why a taser should be used when it's not necessary. Someone being unwilling isn't a reason to tase in my opinion, especially when there's multiple cops around the person in question. Taser is not an obedience tool, but a non-lethal weapon against a person who's actions could result in physical injury to someone trying to apprehend the person. A trained police officer should be fully able to handle a reluctant person without the use of weapons, let alone multiple officers against one.
Multiple shocks from a taser can make a person somewhat limp and dazed, not fully able to think straight. I've seen couple of other videos where cops tases a guy plentiful of times and in each video the person subjected to shocks is unable to move at the end. One guy couldn't even get his hands behind his back while laying on the ground. Fortunately the cop finally gave up tasing the person if he didn't do *exactly* as told and cuffed him - I was almost sure the cop would jolt the guy a yet another time if he wouldn't put hands behind his back.
Have cops suddenly became lazy cowards, unable to deal a mildly reluctant person without weapons?
No, but departments encourage the use of tazers because it's a lot less ugly, safer for the officers, innocents, and the suspect than "fighting" him, or to use a tactical term "swarm". Before being issued a tazer my only options were impact weapons / chemical spray (PR-24 / pepperspray) , deadly force (S&W 645 .45), or hands on mono y mono fisticuffs. Not that I minded the occasional thump, but its a heck of a lot easier to drop some dude in his tracks from 10 feet, than touch him.
You can thank bottom feeder lawyers for making every video of the police doing their jobs into a horrific violation of human rights... now there's no huge brawl to tape, just a dude dropping to the deck getting cuffed... probably screaming not to be jolted again.
And if he had no ID card, hes a trespassing suspect.. if a library employee asked him to leave, and he refused, hes already technically committed the crime of trespass (Cal 602PC / via 837PC)... agreeing to leave once the gendarme arrives does not erase that.
FYI I UCLA cops are fully trained 830.1 PC "Law enforcement officers", POST certified by the state and attend the LA Sheriffs academy.. they're not part of LA Countys new "wannabe" police who get 1/2 the training and all the responsibility.
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Anyone who thinks using a taser to subdue a suspect is immorall has never had anyone go for your sidearm and try to end your life.
Thrawn what you don't realize is that getting close to a violent person not only puts you, but them, and the crowd as well in danger.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
Anyone who thinks using a taser to subdue a suspect is immorall has never had anyone go for your sidearm and try to end your life.
Thrawn what you don't realize is that getting close to a violent person not only puts you, but them, and the crowd as well in danger.
What you don't realize is that I'm not one to sacrifice freedom for safety.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
What you don't realize is that I'm not one to sacrifice freedom for safety.
this is going to be eaten alive so I'm going to leave it alone.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
What you don't realize is that I'm not one to sacrifice freedom for safety.
Exactly what freedom are you losing?
Arm bars and joint locks are about inducing PAIN to end resistance or struggle. It stems from Judo, the Marines used to call it L.I.N.E. training. wich stands for "Linear Involuntary Neurological override Engagement"
so what's the difference. If the force applied is no different than that of a joint lock are a night stick than and it is below the amount of force allowed by law than you arent losing any freedoms yet you would tell somone that puts there life on the line every day FOR YOUR FREEDOMS that their safety doesnt matter to you. The safety of others around them doesnt matter.
But again I ask what freedoms you are losing?
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Originally posted by Thrawn
What you don't realize is that I'm not one to sacrifice freedom for safety.
Thankfully the courts, full of people much wiser and learned than you, have already determined "the rules".. what you think you have sacrificed has already been gone for decades... mostly through case law.
With PC, officers can detain you for up to 30min, the courts have decided 30 min is reasonable. While detained you can be subject to a "cursory search", or pat down for weapons.. the courts have decided there must be a balance between citizens rights and officer safety. Any evidence found during a pat down is admissible, if you refuse you are subject to arrest per 148PC, period.
And the laws have been specifically written to address use of force, you might look at the Cali peace officers bill of rights, aka AB301, among others that recognize the police have a very tough job and that using "necessary force" is the cost of doing business, and that untrained civilians who don't know any better are not the ones who get to decide what is proper.
Speaking of the usual cry of "more training", I have to laugh.. its the more training whiners that forced me to sit for 5 hours on my day off and listen to gay couples tell me how they live, under the guise of "sensitivity training".. I wanted to vomit until I got my double time laden paycheck... paid for by YOU tax payers.
Short of a Jedi mind trick, there is no easy way to deal with people who are "COC", the only training we ever got that really worked was pain compliance.
And I'll tell you from personal experience, I was out there every day dealing with angry state boy / parolee / gangster scum who hated white cops... I had my nose broken, fingers fractured and a busted foot dealing with dusters, once the tazer arrived I decided I was done getting hurt scrapping with these fools, I'd drop em dead in their tracks at 10-15 feet at the 1st sign of trouble, no apologies.. 100% dept sanctioned, legal and safer for all involved.
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Originally posted by Thrawn
That's quite the fantasy world you have going there SuperDud.
Well you must be living in the land of sugar plums and gum drops. :aok
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Originally posted by SuperDud
Well you must be living in the land of sugar plums and gum drops. :aok
no no no you got it wrong. "You don't need to see my ID" (as he waves his hand)
;)
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Originally posted by Thrawn
What you don't realize is that I'm not one to sacrifice freedom for safety.
What freedom?
Who's safety?
Do you assume there is a right to tresspass?
Do you assume there is a right to refuse to leave when told to by the library personnel?
By the Police who were called to the library?
Do you assume there is a right to disturb the peace of an educational institution?
Do you assume there is a right to assault a Police Officer?
Do you assume the Police Officer has no right to NOT be assaulted by every moron who has an axe to grind?
Please tell me wtf the difference there is between pain compliance with a tazer vs an arm bar in your mind?
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This reminds me of the Rodney King video in 1990. Everyone was up in arms about how brutal the police were... and I was actually disturbed by the video. Not by the beating, but that I rely on these folks to separate me from 'undesireables', and must trust them. Until the day comes (which will be anarchy) that I can 'pop a cap' in any homey who threatens me, I am very grateful for the police.
As most know, in hindsite Rodney was an 'undesireable' and if the video was watched objectively defied the police orders to stay down (and he was on PCP I think). Which is in direct contrast to 'stand up'. Hmm, maybe there's a pattern here?
While the Rodney King video wasn't funny (the police were way too serious), this one is!
Regards,
Malta
p.s. If you 'accidentally' tazer someone, is it a crimial offense?
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Fishu, love your ignorant dribble. Its not even worth repeating again in quotes. Did you crawl out from under your rock in Finland to spread the arm chair quarterbacks ignorant theorys of what some officer should do? Get a life dude!!!
As far as the other posts who share the same mentality, post your occupations so when someone in your line of work makes the news I can slam everyone for it and come to the same ignorant and stupid conclusions that I have seen here.
Obviously since you are not police officers and havnt got a clue about what one does at work. Oh but you watch COPS on TV so you are all instant experts and are capable of coming to these divine conclusions on what someone should have done different. I love the one about the cop who should have told everyone in the crowd to get and back and and then give his name and badge number to everyone there.:rofl
For the non LEO taser experts who have never been tased........I have been tased, but some how that doesnt qualify me to be an expert. But when the 5 seconds of the tase where over with, the involuntary muscle contractions were over and I could very easily resume anything that I was doing before that. As soon it was over it was back to full function. Im sure that will be hard for you to understand since your the experts.
There is an old saying, "dont judge a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins". Sounds like a lot of you have already done that. Why are you wasting your valuable knowledge on this web site.
So, come on you experts. lets here those occupations!!!!!!
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I loved this video! That guy being tazed should have been zapped a dozen more times, imo.
"Here's your patriot act!.........ahhhhhhhh!" LOL!
What a moron that kid is.
Good stuff.
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Originally posted by Gunslinger
But you could honestly stand up on your own if instructed to do so after being tased?
What do you think of the video?
You obviously don't remember this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130546&highlight=tazer)
And I didn't need to be instructed to stand up after I got hit. I jumped up and started laughing with a big grin on my face... glad it was over and I had done it. It was one of those guy things... you know how it is. It's voluntary, but nobody in a police academy is going to be the guy that doesn't do it, and then the girls do it so they don't get **** from the guys for the rest of the academy. So everybody does it. :D
We all emptied our tanks (both ends) before the zap though... we had heard stories, and none of us wanted to be the one that peed/shat himself/herself. :)
As far as the video goes, the guy was either stunned, wasn't trying very hard, or was just hamming it up for the cameras. You have the physical ability to stand up immediately after the shock ends. Whether you have it together mentally enough after getting the shock of your life (haha, pun!) to stand up of course depends.
I have a VHS video of our class getting tased... if I could figure out how to get it to youtube I'd post it so y'all could laugh at me.
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Originally posted by M36
I have been tased, but some how that doesnt qualify me to be an expert. But when the 5 seconds of the tase where over with, the involuntary muscle contractions were over and I could very easily resume anything that I was doing before that. As soon it was over it was back to full function. Im sure that will be hard for you to understand since your the experts.
Yeah yeah, old story. You got tased *once*, like the other experts alike you. How about if you get tased several times? That's whole lot different than one or two jolts. The more you get tased the worse you get and the less you'll be trying to get up.
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Originally posted by Fishu
Yeah yeah, old story. You got tased *once*, like the other experts alike you. How about if you get tased several times? That's whole lot different than one or two jolts. The more you get tased the worse you get and the less you'll be trying to get up.
Not so long ago there was a video about a drunk driver who started giving attitude to a highway patrolman. He was stupid enough to get 4-5 hits from the tazer. The video ended with the conversation:
Officer: Put your hands behind your head
Man: (lying down on the ground) I can't
Officer: Put your hands behind your head or I will taze you
Officer: Zzz>ZZzzZZZ
Officer: Put your hands behind your head or you'll get tazed again
Man: I can't! You fluff'n hammered me!
Officer walks to the man and helps his hands behind his back for cuffing.
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Originally posted by Tarmac
You obviously don't remember this thread (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=130546&highlight=tazer)
And I didn't need to be instructed to stand up after I got hit. I jumped up and started laughing with a big grin on my face... glad it was over and I had done it. It was one of those guy things... you know how it is. It's voluntary, but nobody in a police academy is going to be the guy that doesn't do it, and then the girls do it so they don't get **** from the guys for the rest of the academy. So everybody does it. :D
We all emptied our tanks (both ends) before the zap though... we had heard stories, and none of us wanted to be the one that peed/shat himself/herself. :)
As far as the video goes, the guy was either stunned, wasn't trying very hard, or was just hamming it up for the cameras. You have the physical ability to stand up immediately after the shock ends. Whether you have it together mentally enough after getting the shock of your life (haha, pun!) to stand up of course depends.
I have a VHS video of our class getting tased... if I could figure out how to get it to youtube I'd post it so y'all could laugh at me.
Get or borrow a MiniDV digital movie camera (other digital camera formats will probably work too). Most, or maybe all, have an analog input. You can play the VHS into the digital recorder and it will convert it to digital on the MiniDV tape. Then use Windows Movie Maker to upload the from the MiniDV camera to your PC via a FireWire (some brands may use USB?) Read the manual on the camera before you buy/try. The last time I looked Canons cheapest $250 digital MiniDV camera could do this.
Here's a clip of mine that was converted as described:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-PT1wIyc2E0
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Yeah yeah, old story. You got tased *once*
Ok Fishu in Finland, tell us how many times you have been tased and what you did that caused the officer that tase you? Tell us what your qualifications are to be the forum taser expert. If you read my post again you will see that I did not claim to be an expert, but I guess you only read what you want to read. While your at it what is your occupation?
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Sign ze papers old man. ;)
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Ohhh...he stuck it in his eye!!!!
shamus
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I can't sign ze papers because you have broken both of my hands.
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Originally posted by M36
Tell us what your qualifications are to be the forum taser expert. If you read my post again you will see that I did not claim to be an expert, but I guess you only read what you want to read. While your at it what is your occupation?
You brought the experts here by calling others as the experts, with a bad tone, as an effort to bolster the value of your reply.
We didn't claim to be experts either. So why do you defend yourself by saying you didn't claim to be an expert? Either you didn't mean to call us experts at all or you are an expert too.
"I'm not an expert, BUT... -- ....and you others sound like self appointed experts"
Anyway, I've based my opinion and arguments on what I've read, seen and heard. I've seen videos, read some stuff here and there, studied chemistry, biology and history. Well, history doesn't help much with knowing how a tazer works, but it's helpful when it comes to politics; what cops should and shouldn't do.
You still didn't tell me your opinion on what could happen with multiple shocks from a tazer, but instead decided to simply discredit me, as you've already done to the others.
So.. let's hear do you think you could still be fully functional after several shocks?
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Originally posted by M36
Fishu, love your ignorant dribble. Its not even worth repeating again in quotes. Did you crawl out from under your rock in Finland to spread the arm chair quarterbacks ignorant theorys of what some officer should do? Get a life dude!!!
As far as the other posts who share the same mentality, post your occupations so when someone in your line of work makes the news I can slam everyone for it and come to the same ignorant and stupid conclusions that I have seen here.
Obviously since you are not police officers and havnt got a clue about what one does at work. Oh but you watch COPS on TV so you are all instant experts and are capable of coming to these divine conclusions on what someone should have done different. I love the one about the cop who should have told everyone in the crowd to get and back and and then give his name and badge number to everyone there.:rofl
For the non LEO taser experts who have never been tased........I have been tased, but some how that doesnt qualify me to be an expert. But when the 5 seconds of the tase where over with, the involuntary muscle contractions were over and I could very easily resume anything that I was doing before that. As soon it was over it was back to full function. Im sure that will be hard for you to understand since your the experts.
There is an old saying, "dont judge a man until you have walked a mile in his moccasins". Sounds like a lot of you have already done that. Why are you wasting your valuable knowledge on this web site.
So, come on you experts. lets here those occupations!!!!!!
I R cops! I uber! small mind + big ego = bad news.
If you were not such an azzhat you would communicate your point much more effectively.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
I R cops! I uber! small mind + big ego = bad news.
If you were not such an azzhat you would communicate your point much more effectively.
this thread was fun while it lasted
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M36,
Don't bother trying to discuss much of anything with fishu or a few other very much like him.
Fishu is an "expert" on many subjects, just ask him. He's read books and seen films so he knows all about it. He's never been there or done the job but he "knows" all about it. I believe the proper techical term would be something like "armchair general" or "monday morning quarterback".
The wonderful example of discussion provided by rabbit is in the same category. No actual input to the discussion just sarcasm.
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M36 has some legit points. Instead of making them he had to strut around to prove how big of a man he is. Hopefully that arrogance does not cause him or others harm on the job.
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Originally posted by rabbidrabbit
M36 has some legit points. Instead of making them he had to strut around to prove how big of a man he is. Hopefully that arrogance does not cause him or others harm on the job.
I don't think your post added to anything at all as far as the discussion is concerned. Perhaps your tone is no better?
I've worked with M36. He's a great guy with a good sense of humor. He's also got quite a bit of training and experiance on the street and in crowd control situations since that was one of his secondary duties as was mine. I'd imagine he's just a bit tired of the usual suppositions and assumptions along with the sniping from the armchairs on the bbs.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Fishu is an "expert" on many subjects, just ask him. He's read books and seen films so he knows all about it. He's never been there or done the job but he "knows" all about it. I believe the proper techical term would be something like "armchair general" or "monday morning quarterback".
You on the other hand like to discredit others alot by talking BS of them. Maybe you should sometime learn to listen to others and not expect to be the only one with the right to spit out truths and opinions.
Sure I've made errors, nobody's perfect, but lots of times I've been also right. Few times I've even dug up books on a subject to prove my point - Yet the likes of you have discredited me with their authoritah. Doesn't really make you any better person to say things like that when you act like one.
As far as I can see nobody has really questioned the effect of multiple shocks, other than telling how they've managed to be fully functional after a single shock. So far it's been BS'ng of those who's said that multiple shocks will disable a man for a short period of time after they're no more tazed.
So, how's it going to be, is either of you going to put up with the argument of the effect of multiple shocks? You two got the ball now, prove that you're not BS'ers.
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Rabbidrabbit, I agree with Mav, you are a waste of time and if I remember right, the last discussion we had was with me pretty much slam dunking you and wiping your nose in it. With your last post I assume you want me to come down to your level. Sorry, it's your world, live in it.
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What are the volts and ampers on those tasers?
A good elecrtical fence can momentarily stun you. It will also screw up old pacemakers, and it may make some limbs numb for a while. Also, one can have some hicups.
So, it's a stun, and while the stun itself only takes a second, the aftereffect varies, and in particular in the case of those fences, it depends on things like condutiviry etc.
I hate them because I had so many punches. It's up to 10 KV, but the ampers are ultra small, just not sure of the number.
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I've seen videos, read some stuff here and there
Brilliant Fishu!!!!! Since you never indicated how many times you have been tased Ill assume that the number........is a big ZERO. I love it, you are trying to come to intelligent conclusions based on what you have "seen" and "heard" on "Youtube". I have read some of your other posts and you waltz right in and become the resident expert on a lot of subjects. You enjoy makeing slanderous and outrageous allegations about police officers, and create controversy which is probably all your good for anyway. In an answer to your question, out of all the likely people that may need to be tased, including yourself, some may not be able to function after multiple hits and others will, and depends on a lot of circumstances. I was speaking from experiance and training. You opened your mouth not to provide anything usefull but to stir the pot with your stupid post and assinine remarks. Go ahead and spew some more, stupid me for trying to feed the troll anyway.
Maverick
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Originally posted by M36
Rabbidrabbit, I agree with Mav, you are a waste of time and if I remember right, the last discussion we had was with me pretty much slam dunking you and wiping your nose in it. With your last post I assume you want me to come down to your level. Sorry, it's your world, live in it.
Do you want to say I'm wrong now Maverick?
I'm sure he is a decent guy to work with but his intardnet tough guy routine ruins his points. Just like our last exchange. Like I said, I hope its just the internet were he finds his bravery.
And no, you "won" nothing the last conversation either. You just huffed and puffed like you are now. Only to you would that seem like victory.
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rabbit when you have something other than continuing a personal attack without adding to the discussion I'll consider responding to you. As far as the internet tough guy bit is concerned, I really think you should look in the mirror on that one as well as the huffing and puffing. I think we're pretty much done otherwise.
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I posted a clear observation of his behavior. He responded with more of the same "Rabbidrabbit, I agree with Mav, you are a waste of time and if I remember right, the last discussion we had was with me pretty much slam dunking you and wiping your nose in it."
I treat him like a thug because he behaves like one. If he does not behave like one I don't treat him like one. I don't do the same to you do I? He acts like the bad stereotype for a cop and it gives the rest a bad name. I have nothing but respect for those who view the authority of the job as a responsibility rather than an entitlement.
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You have to excuse us nordic people for thinking this kind of behaviour is over the top. You see, we don't have police on the campus, ID controls or constant fear of attack. We're used to be able to move around freely, from that standpoint alone it feels extreme just to have a law officer controlling the access to the premises to start with.
I'm sure the actions are necessary in your situation. It can be hard for us sometimes to understand though. Many things are so much different in our societies.
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I was always told never lay hands on unless your going to arrest the person.
As far as the kids demanding a badge number , they need to STFU or they will be joining thier friend.
When thing cool down, then we talk.
I agree with x0847Marine. I've had my nose broken five times and there are places on my head that won't grow hair because of the scars.
If I don't have to get close, I won't.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
You have to excuse us nordic people for thinking this kind of behaviour is over the top. You see, we don't have police on the campus, ID controls or constant fear of attack. We're used to be able to move around freely, from that standpoint alone it feels extreme just to have a law officer controlling the access to the premises to start with.
I'm sure the actions are necessary in your situation. It can be hard for us sometimes to understand though. Many things are so much different in our societies.
Keep in mind these ID checks, as stated, don't start until after 11PM. It isn't a police state on campuses for the most part.
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Originally posted by MrRiplEy[H]
You have to excuse us nordic people for thinking this kind of behaviour is over the top. You see, we don't have police on the campus, ID controls or constant fear of attack. We're used to be able to move around freely, from that standpoint alone it feels extreme just to have a law officer controlling the access to the premises to start with.
I'm sure the actions are necessary in your situation. It can be hard for us sometimes to understand though. Many things are so much different in our societies.
Do you have to be an over 50 american to see the irony in this statement? :)
shamus
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The kid that got tased sounded liking a whining know it all sweetheart. How many times do you have to be told to do something before you do it? Get up means GET UP. If he couldn't move, he could have said so. "i can't feel my legs officer, give me a minute and i'll co-operate." Instead he went on a tyraid* about being opressed, and caused a bigger scene.
I thought the screams were great though. :lol
In all honesty the most vocal people there, asking for the cops id and all that probably have the same mentality. I really don't understand what the big deal was. If he would have just co-operated from the beginning the cops never would have been called. If he would have co-operated with the cops, he wouldn't have been tased. Every action has a reaction, problem is, he or the witnesses either didn't know what the reaction would be, or just didn't like it.
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Took a few days to respond to this.
I wanted to get other opinions and see if they matched my own.
So far the only people IRL outside fo the boards who agree with how the cops handled it are not surprisingly. Cops
There they are almost unanimous. Which doesnt really surprise me.
Literally everyone outside of law enforcement that IO have either showed this to. or has seen or heard about it already Agree that yes the kid was being a total A-hole But.. they are also appalled byt the actions taken by the cops.
I am a little less then apalled (Disgusted is a better word) but IMO it was an example of exessive force used IMO which could have and should have been handled much better.
Now I havetn seen or read everything on what went on I am only going by what the initial video shows. So if he toook a swing at or otherwise tried to be violent himself I dont know.
I am only goig by the first video posted
But
IMO unless and untill someone is being physically violent to you. or attempting to
You dont have the right to be brutal with someone for simply refusing to follow your commands.
If thats the way the sytem works. then there is something very very wrong with the system.
You only apply violence when met or threatened with violence.
Afraid to get hit?
Tough. Those are the types of chances you get paid to take.
Dont like it? Dont do the job
Now if he had atempted violence himself or produced a weapon then they had every reason to Taz him as that would be considered a violent act.
Nothing short of that justifies this action.
Reguardless of how the kid was acting up yelling the cops are getting them some bad bad PR with this one.
Had they after telling him repeatedly to get up and leave. Pinned him to the floor,cuffed him, and dragged him away. I doubt anyone would have had a complaint. and the kid would have looked like exactly how he was behaving and A-hole.
note nobody became alarmed or more then interested in what was going on untill they started repeatedly tazing him.
Once that happpened. Then they became alarmed with the amount and type of force being used.
And rightly so.
Personally I think those cops were very fortunate not to get stormed by a mob themselves as a result.
Just got done talking to my son about this
This is big big news on my sons campus as I would imagine many colleges across the country now
I'll C&P what he just told me
"most peope ive been talking to who read or saw this said things like this is why they hate cops"
" Excessive force by far, unnecessary"
Dont think thats exatly the kind of things cops want to hear.
But thats the general feeling going around his campus right now
the police should be trusted and respected
not feared and loathed.
but with stuff like this
thats exactly what they are going ot get
In the end I suspect a lawsuit is goign to follow and the kid is goiing to get a nice sized judgement awarded to him.
For being a jerk
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I'm not a cop and if the kid was being belligerent as it appeared he was then they should have tased him until he complied. It causes no permanent damage, other than perhaps to his ego when his classmates see him squeeling like a little girl.
I think he staged the whole thing.
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Curious as to the effects Tazing might have one someone with a heart condition.
Any time you shoot someone with electicity. Of any kind There is an enherant risk of causing leathal damage
Or so Ive been told over and over again
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Originally posted by lukster
It causes no permanent damage, other than perhaps to his ego when his classmates see him squeeling like a little girl.
I think he staged the whole thing.
Please define permanant Damage
Or isnt Death permanant enough for ya?
Taser dafety claim questioned (http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special43/articles/0718taser-main18.html)
"The Republic's review of autopsies and interviews with medical examiners found Tasers have been linked to at least five deaths
Medical examiners in three cases involving suspects who died in police custody cited Tasers as a cause or a contributing factor in the deaths. In two other cases, Tasers could not be ruled out as a cause of death"
Pheonix suspect Dies after 4 Taser hits (http://net127.com/2005/07/18/phoenix-suspect-dies-after-three-taser-hits/)
"His death marks the second time in a week that someone died after a Taser shock and comes only two days after the mayor of Birmingham, Ala., ordered police there to stop using Tasers because of concerns over the stun guns safety.
More than 130 people, including four men in the Valley, have died after police Taser shocks since 1999.
Taser International, the Scottsdale manufacturer of the stun gun, maintains that its weapons have never caused a death or serious injury.
But an ongoing investigation by The Arizona Republic shows that the gun has been cited by medical examiners in 17 cases
Stunned to Death (http://www.progressiveu.org/213403-stunned-to-death-shocking-story-about-teen-who-died-from-a-taser-shock)
"According to Amnesty International, an international human rights group, in a statement March of this year they have logged at least 156 deaths across the country in the last five years from stun guns used by police"
Study questions Stun Guns Safety (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/09/eveningnews/main672709.shtml)
" As investigators study why a 14-year-old went into cardiac arrest after being hit with a Taser in Chicago, some new research raises questions on the Taser's safety.
the study, done by the Air Force and obtained by CBS News, found that repeated shocks from a Taser stun gun led to heart damage in pigs.
Specifically, the study examined the pigs' blood and found a jump in the enzyme Troponin T, the body's clearest sign of heart injury. It also found the pigs suffering high levels of blood acid, a potentially life threatening condition called acidosis.
"It's a red flag," says Dr. Charles Rackley, a respected cardiologist at Georgetown University Hospital.
Asked what his diagnosis would be if a patient came to him with these blood levels, Rackley says, "My initial impression would be that meant some heart muscle damage, or heart attack."
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I suppose there is some possibility of dying due to stress just by being arrested. I think the evidence shows that if there is permanent damage it is rare. Would you rather the cops just shoot someone who is physically resisting arrest?
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Dred,
Keep in mind that the video didn't start until well after the situation started. Look at it again and not that there is 30 seconds of video, late as it is before the tazer was used. Listen carefully and note the repeated commands to the suspect to get up. I would think that a rational person would get up after the first hit.
Of course with the audio only on the video because it starts well back in the library all we have is the screaming to indicate that there were repeated tazer hits. We certainly have no idea how much of the screaming and yelling was due to tazer of just bad acting for the crowd. If you have never had an experiance with a suspect "playing to the crowd" it's a real "treat".
Now you already had an opinion about the tazer and that's fine. You consider it brutal. Having had to do the wrestling and fighting on the ground with an uncooperative suspect I'd rather the pain all be one way. The problem with having to actually fight the suspect is that some one usually gets hurt.
Like I said in an earlier post this was a lose lose situation for the Officers responding. No matter what they do, the suspect is going to claim some violation of his "rights" and some kind of injury. You bet there will be a law suit. Hell I'd bet he had a lawyer inside of 12 hours. This is not an uncommon method to boost income by creating a situation where a suit will be filed.
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taser karma:
Policeman tasers himself and teenager at domestic dispute
18 November 2006
An Auckland policeman attending a domestic dispute in Auckland accidentally blasted himself and a teenager with a Taser, before pepper-spraying an innocent woman.
The constable was attending the incident at a central Auckland home when he shocked himself, the 16-year-old and then later pepper-sprayed the 21-year-old woman, The New Zealand Herald reported today.
The constable was reloading his weapon when he accidentally blasted himself with the Taser's 50,000 volts while trying to stun a man at the centre of the domestic incident on October 1.
One shot accidentally struck the man's teenage son.
After five attempts to hit the man, the officer eventually used pepper spray but hit the man's 21-year-old daughter an unintended target.
The man eventually gave himself up. The constable, who had had Taser training, was not injured.
The taser is being tested by frontline policemen in Auckland and Wellington.
An official police update of the Taser trial, published on October 17, made no mention of the constable firing five times, or missing his target, zapping himself or hitting the boy, the newspaper reported.
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Vulcan,
:rofl :rofl
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Originally posted by Maverick
Dred,
I would think that a rational person would get up after the first hit.
I would agree with that, Mav. However, how would a rational person reaction to this?
A. Person told to do X. Person does X. Get's tazed.
B. Person told to do Y.
What would you do?
We don't have video or audio of what led to the first tazing. There are reports he was complying with X (leaving the library) when he was tazed because the officers didn't like what he was saying. If that is the case, is it alright to zap half the people who post here? :D
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Originally posted by Maverick
Dred,
Keep in mind that the video didn't start until well after the situation started. Look at it again and not that there is 30 seconds of video, late as it is before the tazer was used. Listen carefully and note the repeated commands to the suspect to get up. I would think that a rational person would get up after the first hit.
Of course with the audio only on the video because it starts well back in the library all we have is the screaming to indicate that there were repeated tazer hits. We certainly have no idea how much of the screaming and yelling was due to tazer of just bad acting for the crowd. If you have never had an experiance with a suspect "playing to the crowd" it's a real "treat".
Now you already had an opinion about the tazer and that's fine. You consider it brutal. Having had to do the wrestling and fighting on the ground with an uncooperative suspect I'd rather the pain all be one way. The problem with having to actually fight the suspect is that some one usually gets hurt.
Like I said in an earlier post this was a lose lose situation for the Officers responding. No matter what they do, the suspect is going to claim some violation of his "rights" and some kind of injury. You bet there will be a law suit. Hell I'd bet he had a lawyer inside of 12 hours. This is not an uncommon method to boost income by creating a situation where a suit will be filed.
Had he been violent in such a way that he actually attempted to assult the officers. I would say fine. zap away
But Yelling and refusing to move inand of itself is not a violent act.
As such Violence at least at that particular level is as of yet unwarranted.
I can understand how anyone would want the pain to be all one way.
But And as I said. The risk of receiving violence comes with the job
Its what your paid for
Exactly why you cant sue your police Dept of your shot in the line of duty.
that danger. Comes with the job.
That does does not justify being the first to initiate violence.
At least not on that level.
Particularly repeatedly. Once he was tases the first time he should have then been physically sudued and cuffed. There certainly were enough police there to accomplish this.
Any time you shoot someone with electricity. you are risking a danger of lethality or causing permanent damage.
And especially when its repeated.
I feel for cops. I really do. they have one hell of a tough job and I sure as hell wouldnt want it.
Was this kid wrong? Helll yea.
But that doesnt make these particular cops right.
Had he or if it is shown he tried to take a swing at one of them I would and will be be in full support of the use of the taser as many times as it took for him to be less physically agressive.
But sitting and yelling is not an overtly agressive act
As such I cannot find any legitimate justification for a repeated tasing other then because they could do it.
the Taser I am sure can be a great tool when used under the correct circumstances.
I just dont see that situation as being the correct circumstances.
Certainly not repeadedly anyway
Just because you can do something does not always mean you should.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Had he been violent in such a way that he actually attempted to assult the officers. I would say fine. zap away
But Yelling and refusing to move inand of itself is not a violent act.
As such Violence at least at that particular level is as of yet unwarranted.
I can understand how anyone would want the pain to be all one way.
But And as I said. The risk of receiving violence comes with the job
Its what your paid for
Exactly why you cant sue your police Dept of your shot in the line of duty.
that danger. Comes with the job.
That does does not justify being the first to initiate violence.
At least not on that level.
Particularly repeatedly. Once he was tases the first time he should have then been physically sudued and cuffed. There certainly were enough police there to accomplish this.
Any time you shoot someone with electricity. you are risking a danger of lethality or causing permanent damage.
And especially when its repeated.
I feel for cops. I really do. they have one hell of a tough job and I sure as hell wouldnt want it.
Was this kid wrong? Helll yea.
But that doesnt make these particular cops right.
Had he or if it is shown he tried to take a swing at one of them I would and will be be in full support of the use of the taser as many times as it took for him to be less physically agressive.
But sitting and yelling is not an overtly agressive act
As such I cannot find any legitimate justification for a repeated tasing other then because they could do it.
the Taser I am sure can be a great tool when used under the correct circumstances.
I just dont see that situation as being the correct circumstances.
Certainly not repeadedly anyway
Just because you can do something does not always mean you should.
Well said.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
That does does not justify being the first to initiate violence.
I think cops do have the right to initiate violence, depending on the situation of course. They should use no more force than necessary though to enforce the law and protect themselves and citizens.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Had he been violent in such a way that he actually attempted to assult the officers. I would say fine. zap away
But Yelling and refusing to move inand of itself is not a violent act.
As such Violence at least at that particular level is as of yet unwarranted.
I can understand how anyone would want the pain to be all one way.
But And as I said. The risk of receiving violence comes with the job
Its what your paid for
Exactly why you cant sue your police Dept of your shot in the line of duty.
that danger. Comes with the job.
That does does not justify being the first to initiate violence.
At least not on that level.
Particularly repeatedly. Once he was tases the first time he should have then been physically sudued and cuffed. There certainly were enough police there to accomplish this.
Any time you shoot someone with electricity. you are risking a danger of lethality or causing permanent damage.
And especially when its repeated.
I feel for cops. I really do. they have one hell of a tough job and I sure as hell wouldnt want it.
Was this kid wrong? Helll yea.
But that doesnt make these particular cops right.
Had he or if it is shown he tried to take a swing at one of them I would and will be be in full support of the use of the taser as many times as it took for him to be less physically agressive.
But sitting and yelling is not an overtly agressive act
As such I cannot find any legitimate justification for a repeated tasing other then because they could do it.
the Taser I am sure can be a great tool when used under the correct circumstances.
I just dont see that situation as being the correct circumstances.
Certainly not repeadedly anyway
Just because you can do something does not always mean you should.
The only problem I have with this is that cops can't be wrong.
EVER.
You arent a cop, you dont know what it is like. How DARE you say they are human and might make mistakes! How DARE you!
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Originally posted by Vulcan
An Auckland policeman attending a domestic dispute in Auckland accidentally blasted himself and a teenager with a Taser, before pepper-spraying an innocent woman.
Barney Fife lives on! LMAO
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Barney Fife lives on! LMAO
OK, I realize you are a Democrat communist and you hate your country and the police. But please, please stop slandering our fine, selfless men in blue.
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Originally posted by Urchin
OK, I realize you are a Democrat communist and you hate your country and the police. But please, please stop slandering our fine, selfless men in blue.
LMAO that is hillarious
Not 3 days ago someone on the boards accused me of being a NEOCON
that tells me I must have things just about right ;)
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No you Klinton wannabe! He said NEO-COM!
Like NEOPINKO!!!
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Oh, My bad
Oh well. my old next door neighbor accused me of being right winged last week
And shes about as far left as they get
does that count?
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First Rolex,
Listen to the tape. The first 30 seconds and there is no obvious tazing that I could tell. There were orders to get up and the suspect yelling very loudly not to touch him. The scenario you outlined is not the case.
Dred,
I'd like to direct you back to the same time frame. Do you think that there was no action that went with the loud demands by the suspect to not touch him. Something like a rather vigorous yanking back out of the Officers hands? Yep it's an assumption on my part since you can't see anything on the video but it's based on experiance.
As to the idea that someone takes the job and has to expect to be assaulted for no good reason, BS on that. You are expected to take on a risk, not to simply be assaulted because someone thinks their tantrum warrants assaulting you. They weren't hired to be a punching bag or be shot any more than a fireman is hired to be burned alive.
Finally I find a far greater risk of injury to the suspect in having to fight them than simply tazing them. You may feel differently but then again you haven't had to do the job either. You might try it some time, check to see if there is a reserve Police operation in your area and sign up. You might have a different perspective on it after having to fight someone then go to take care of your injuries just because some "person" decided they wanted to make a point or figured that because you're just a cop they have the right to assault you because that's what you're paid for.
Now at this time I think the horse is pretty dead and I'm done with it. Some of you feel the cops involved are total jerks yet place little blame on the person who was responsible for the entire situation. He's now a victim to you, and you have bought into it. He got what he wanted, a scene, notoriety and I'm sure he'll also get money out of it as well, all for being an ****** and throwing a tantrum in public. He won't be held responsible for his actions as the blame has been transfered to others who were called there because of him.
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lol neo com lol
u commie
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The witness acounts that I have read all say that he was not tased by having the prongs shot at him. He was "drive stunned" which has a different effect but is still painfull and is used as pain compliance. A drive stun does not cause incapacitation like being "tased" would, for the length of the tase.
Other witnesses said that before the actual campus police officers got there, the original security people that initiated the contact with him were not officers. When he refused to produce the ID card these security people called for the campus police and they apparently met with the same resistance.
Dred, your right, just sitting and refusing to leave is not a violent act but it is an act of passisve resistance. How many times did the officers tell him to stand up? Had he just stood up and walked out with the officers he would have spared himself being stunned. To go back even farther, had he shown is student ID as originaly requested there would have been no need to call the campus officers.
The officers started with no force at all by asking him to get up. He refused and the force level increased increased to the drive stun. Rules for use of the taser differ for each dept. For us, the person has to be "actively aggresive".
In looking at the tape it I get the idea that it was a set up. He refuses to show his student ID card to security officers, campus police show up, he still refuses to stand up and leave, he is drive stunned, screams, the camera comes out of the cubicle and films mostly audio of him screaming while the officers repeatedly tell him to stand up. He draws a crowd, and gets crowd sympathy. Since it was in a library and a very quiet place he gets more bang for the buck sort of speak because his dramatic scene was intentionaly loud. An outburst in a normaly loud place would not have the same impact.
The officers and security people didnt start this, they reacted to his choices. It was well thought out and done in a place with a lot of people for the crowd and his yelling was the "look what the evil police are doing to the poor student" He povoked the situation and they dealt with it which was just his plan.
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Perhaps the "bright" college boy should have sowed his ID in the first place, why blame law enforcement after the fact?
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Originally posted by Maverick
,
Dred,
I'd like to direct you back to the same time frame. Do you think that there was no action that went with the loud demands by the suspect to not touch him. Something like a rather vigorous yanking back out of the Officers hands? Yep it's an assumption on my part since you can't see anything on the video but it's based on experiance.
As to the idea that someone takes the job and has to expect to be assaulted for no good reason, BS on that. You are expected to take on a risk, not to simply be assaulted because someone thinks their tantrum warrants assaulting you. They weren't hired to be a punching bag or be shot any more than a fireman is hired to be burned alive.
Yanking back is still not an assult on your person. He could have simply been pinned on the ground. inasmuch as he was already sitting anyway. This shouldnt have been too difficult.
that was after all the problem wasnt it. It was the orders I repeadedly heard told to him "Get up"
Someone sitting on the ground is nowhere near the threat as someone standing.
I wouldnt even had as much of a problem with it if he was tazed once.
but after that there has to be a moment where he was at the very least in a prone position laying on the ground. At which point he should have been cuffed and not tased over and over again.
I did not say that you should expect to be assaulted. Nor did I ever say anyone had the right to assault you becasuse it was your job
Any more then I said you should expect to be shot.
But. Just like a fireman runs the risk of being burned alive
That risk comes with the job.
If you are unwilling to accept that risk as part of the job , dont do the job.
If anyone is unwilling to accept that risk as part of the job. they shouldnt be doing the job
It does not give you the right to assault or shoot anyone else first who is not first posing a threat to you. Period
Sitting down and refusing to move is not a threat to you. pulling his arms away from you while sitting down is not a threat to you.
If someone strikes out at you or any cop. By all means. beat the crap out of him or Taz away with my bessing.
Untill that happens
While I agree they dont have the right to assault you.
You also do not have the right to assault first.
In this case I can forgive and even tolerate the first tasing.
But at that point he should have been cuffed and lead or dragged out if need be.
Not repeatedly tased over and over again.
Thats where I draw the line as did the people in that video.
Like I said before. Take note that nobody had more then an interest in what was going on untill they kept repeatedly tasing him.
Thats when it became exessive
And for what? Sitting there and refusing to get up?
Sorry I dont buy that as a threatening move other then to perhaps an overdeveloped ego.
Could've zapped him once. then while he as down. Pinned and cuffed him and hauled him away and he in the world of public opinion would have looked like the arse he was. And the cops would have come off as just having to have done an unpleasant job
And everyone would have been talking about this jerk that got arrested and not how these cops kept exessively zapping this kid over and over.
and thats what the general consencus is.
Not that the kid wasnt wrong. Everyone agrees with that. As I have repeatedly stated in this thread
The Kid was wrong. But the Cops were wrong too
Just because the kid was wrong dosnt make the cops right in how they ended up handleing it
The problem is people see how the cops reacted as having gone overboard. And thus by their own actions turned a jerk. into a victim
Thats what those students there were reacting to.They were reacting to the repeated tasing itself. Not what the dopy kid was screaming inbeween.
In asking for the badge numbers what they were really trying to say was "Enough"
And rightly so.
This wasnt an angry mob these guys were operating around.
but it very well could have become one.
Already admitted you guys have a tough job that I wouldnt want
and if it comes out that this kid was swinging at the cops when they tried to subdue him Ill back off my opinion on this incident and say they did what they had to do.
If not. then I'll stand by my opinion that they were right in what they were trying to do. But got carried away in doing it.
I dont expect many cops to agree with me.
Unless the evidence is absolutely irrefutable, Or the cop has been found ot have been involved inpedophillia, or dealing drugs to kids. or murder
Cops just wont speak out against other cops.
And while I can appreciate that brotherhood and all that.
It is a bit concerning because they are supposed to Serve and protect the public. From everyone.
Whats wrong is wrong. should matter the color of the shirt a person wears or if there is a badge on it or not.
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If he couldnt stand, why not just drag him out of there instead of make a big scene. Seems like the cops were poorly trained or used bad procedures. Maybe theyre rookies and tasing people gives them a sense of empowerment?
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Originally posted by M36
The witness acounts that I have read all say that he was not tased by having the prongs shot at him. He was "drive stunned" which has a different effect but is still painfull and is used as pain compliance. A drive stun does not cause incapacitation like being "tased" would, for the length of the tase.
Other witnesses said that before the actual campus police officers got there, the original security people that initiated the contact with him were not officers. When he refused to produce the ID card these security people called for the campus police and they apparently met with the same resistance.
Dred, your right, just sitting and refusing to leave is not a violent act but it is an act of passisve resistance. How many times did the officers tell him to stand up? Had he just stood up and walked out with the officers he would have spared himself being stunned. To go back even farther, had he shown is student ID as originaly requested there would have been no need to call the campus officers.
The officers started with no force at all by asking him to get up. He refused and the force level increased increased to the drive stun. Rules for use of the taser differ for each dept. For us, the person has to be "actively aggresive".
In looking at the tape it I get the idea that it was a set up. He refuses to show his student ID card to security officers, campus police show up, he still refuses to stand up and leave, he is drive stunned, screams, the camera comes out of the cubicle and films mostly audio of him screaming while the officers repeatedly tell him to stand up. He draws a crowd, and gets crowd sympathy. Since it was in a library and a very quiet place he gets more bang for the buck sort of speak because his dramatic scene was intentionaly loud. An outburst in a normaly loud place would not have the same impact.
The officers and security people didnt start this, they reacted to his choices. It was well thought out and done in a place with a lot of people for the crowd and his yelling was the "look what the evil police are doing to the poor student" He povoked the situation and they dealt with it which was just his plan.
Ok first Im going to say yes. the kid was wrong absolutely 110%
the problem I have is in using a taz on someone who is not as you said "Actively agressive"
That. to me makes sense
If he is not being actively agressive. Pin the tard tot he floor, cuff him and drag his butt out. If he physically resists to this. then yea. Taz his arse if you HAVE to. THEN cuff him.
Zapping him over and over again to me. is still going overboard.
If hes already on the floor he is a greatly reduced threat if any
I dunno if it was planned or not. Maybe by the kid. As for the person working the the cam it reminds me more of a kid recording somethign for "hey check out this nut in the library today." Then it got real interesting
And "oh I gotta get a shot of this"
Personally I think if it was conspired. That camera would have been front and center catching everything.
But I could be wrong. Thats just my opinion.
And Im not trying to be disrespectful of Cops. Im really not.
As I said before. Im going by that first video alone
but I still maintain that just because they can do something doesnt mean they should
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clicker (http://www.jibjab.com/jokebox/jokebox/jibjab/id/268923/jokeid/76425)
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Yes you can have full control of your body after being subjected to Taser.
Further you have full control of your mental abilities to fully understand verbal commands. The person who was subected to the taser made a conscious decision not to use either.
Pepper spray another controlling tool was not really a viable option as it would have exposed the other student indirectly to the effects of the spray.
It is a criminal act to fail to leave a building when asked to do so by person in authority to tell you do do so... In Pa it is called Defiant Trespass.
Altough yes there are multiple police officers on the scene they are not, or should not, be required to go "Hands On" with a non-compliant subject this places them in a position where 1. they may get injured or 2 the subect may get injured... These officers do not get Paid to get themselves injured or killed they get paid to enforce the law PEROID.
Tasers are not a Less Than Lethal Weapon they are a controlling tool and are akin to the use of pepper spray and far leap from less than lethal...
The male in the white shirt was continually interjecting himself into the arrest requiring a police officer(s) to divert themselves from dealing with the subject being dealt with.. His actions were inappropriate and quite possibly criminal in nature... him being told to leave or also face being tased was not an inappropriate remark, or order. And when told this what did this man do--- COMPLIED!!!!!
I could not tell who was screaming for names and badge numbers if it was the subject he would get that information in due time, it would appear on both arrest reports and criminal complaints, and should be told to him at the appropriate time...not in the midst of a potentially violent situation.
If it was not the person being tased the incident did not directly involve the person yelling for the information and therefore is a non-issue...
For those who have not or do not walk in the shoes of those making split second decisions in rapidly evolving tense and uncertain circumstances nor have the training or experience of trained police officers to say what the officers should have done or could have done is people making comments about something for which they have no basis of knowledge... For just this reason that is why all courts are not permitted to view police involved incidents " with the clarity of 20-20 hindsight" but must view incidents as would a trained police officer faced with similar situations and are required only to show the officer actions were reasonable, with then understading that situation involving police officer are often tense, uncertain and rapidly evolving.
The officers choice of the level of force to be used in this circumstance was proper and was an attempt to gain nothing more than compliance with thier verbal commands.
The young man in this incident was able to scream the english language and therefore it can be reasonably assumed he could understand it.. He was told several times to comply or he would be "tased". HE CHOSE NOT TO COMPLY... NUMEROUS TIMES!!!!!!
It never fails to amaze me that those when faced with point blank directions from a police officer CHOOSE not to comply, for whatever their reason, even when informed of what the next actions of the police officer is going to be... in this case a tasing..
And yes there probably will be a lawsuit and this MORON will probably receive a settlement, not because the actions of the officers were excessive or even improper, but simply because the economics of the situation may dictate it.. At times it is cheaper to offer a sum of money to the MORON than it is to take to case to trial and pay the legal fees...
LESSON TO BE LEARNED--- When being ordered by the police to comply DO SO-- At this point this is not a democracy, it is not a debate club and it is not the time to enter your plea of complete and utter innocence.. It is time do one thing... COMPLY...
You will have your day in court where you can tell a judge or jury of how you were completely innocent and wrongfully victimzed by overzealous police.... The street, or building in this instance, is neither the time nor the place to air your grievences or plea your case...
Had this male complied I'm fairly certain none of this would have taken place... The problem here is with the young male who refused lawful orders and not with the police officers forced to deal with him.
P.S. Drediock as far as multiple officers pinning him to the floor until he is controlled have you ever heard of positional asphyxia....NO???... look it up.. Like it or not a taser is a lesser use of force than Hands On Tactics and has less potential for and permanant injury than hands on uses of force... And further the act of pulling away from a police officer trying to make a lawful arrest is resisting arrest and as such in itself authorizes use of force to overcome such resistance.. And for those who are basically saying police are paid to be assaulted... WRONG!!!! is it a job hazard most certainly is that what police are paid for absoultely not!!!!!!
You go home to your kids who idolize you and try and tell them daddy or mommy got the crap beat out of them but its OK cause thats why the are Paid... JEEEZ.... what a load of crap....
And I would be one of the first to say if the use of force was excessive... Are cops wrong at times... YES.. they are human they make mistakes.. However in this instance they were not wrong.. Is it unpleasant and does it look bad YES... But that is not the question that has been raised in this thread.. The point raised is was it EXCESSIVE.. As a Police Trainer in Tactics and Use of Force I can honestly say though quite possibly unpleasant to watch it was not an EXCESSIVE USE OF FORCE
Though I respect some, not all, of the opinions posted in this thread I have seen nothing in the video posted that would indicate an unlawful and excessive use of force...
<<<>>>
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Dred, there have been deaths following taser hits, but death was not from being tased. What you failed to add to some of your examples where the toxicology reports which my have shown drug use of some kind. Granted not in all circumstances, with other contibuting factors, but a lot of the people where on drugs. Again, blaming the taser should be diverted to blame the person on drugs because it was their drug use that led to the the police having to react to the actions of those being tased. And, some of the examples are possibly just bad choices made by officers.
Click here (http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special43/articles/1224taserlist24-ON.html)
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Student claims RACIAL PROFILING:
Why not just show the f$##ing ID card? Jeez!
Tasered Student Alleges Racial Profiling
Lawyer Says Cop Tasered UCLA Student Because Of His Middle Eastern Appearance
RELATED STORIES & LINKS
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Missouri Cops Taser 17-Year-Old Shouting, 'I Want Jesus' During Confrontation
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
(AP) A student who was shocked by a campus police officer's Taser gun after he refused to show ID at a UCLA library thought he was being singled out by the officer because of his Middle Eastern appearance, his lawyer said.
Attorney Stephen Yagman said he plans to file a federal civil rights lawsuit on behalf of the U.S.-born student, Mostafa Tabatabainejad.
Tabatabainejad, 23, was shocked Tuesday night after arguing with a campus police officer who was conducting a routine check of student IDs at the University of California, Los Angeles Powell Library computer lab.
Yagman said his client declined to show his school ID because he thought he was being targeted for his appearance. His family is of Iranian descent.
Police have said Tabatabainejad encouraged others at the library to join his resistance, and when a crowd gathered, the officer used the stun gun on him.
Yagman disputed that, saying Tabatabainejad started yelling to draw attention after the police officer pulled out the Taser.
Tabatabainejad was arrested for resisting and obstructing a police officer and later released on his own recognizance.
The incident, recorded on another student's camera phone, showed Tabatabainejad screaming while on the floor of the computer lab. It was the third time in a month in which police behavior in the city was criticized after amateur video surfaced.
UCLA's interim chancellor, Norman Abrams, urged the public to withhold judgment while the campus police department investigates.
Several civil rights organizations, including Amnesty International and the Council on American-Islamic Relations, have called for an independent review.
©MMVI, The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten, or redistributed.
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Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Oh, My bad
Oh well. my old next door neighbor accused me of being right winged last week
And shes about as far left as they get
does that count?
No that just means you portray yourself different on here than you do outside of the internet ;)
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sgt203
Show me where in my posts I said that police were paid to be assulted
I never said any such thing.
what I did say what that risk came with the job.
My job I end up climbing a lot of ladders. Often quite high 30-40 feet or more and in what can easily be discribed as less then ideal not to mention safe circumstances where at less then a moments notice I can easily end up on the ground with my body busted up from a fall or worse (dead)
I've had ladders drop form under me. a lot of times your on the ground before you ever know your falling. It can happen that fast. Fortunately to day I've escaped with only some nasty cuts and bruises. But could very easily be a lot worse.
Now I dont get paid to get busted up,my neck broken or killed just to fix someone elses house
But I know that is the risk that sometimes comes with the job. I accept that risk and do the job.
If I was unwilling to accept that risk. I wouldn't do the job.
Its just that simple
In your job there are eherent risks that come with the job.
Your NOT paid to get shot (god forbid)
Your NOT paid to get assaulted.
But the risk of that happening is there.
You either accept that risk and do the job. or not accept it and dont.
Its just that simple
IMO Passive resistance does NOT give you a licence to assault someone who is not assulting you
I know about positional asphyxia
but for everyones amusement
"Positional asphyxia, also known as postural asphyxia, is a form of asphyxia which occurs when someone's position prevents them from breathing adequately. A small but significant number of people die suddenly and without apparent reason during restraint by police, prison (corrections) officers and health care staff. Positional asphyxia may be a factor in some of these deaths.
Positional asphyxia is a potential danger of some physical restraint techniques,
People may die from positional asphyxia by simply getting themselves into a breathing-restricted position they cannot get out of, either through carelessness or as a consequence of another accident.
Small children under two are particularly at risk from positional asphyxia.
Research has suggested that restraining a person in a face down position is likely to cause greater restriction of breathing than restraining a person face up. Many law enforcement and health personnel are now taught to avoid restraining people face down or to do so only for a very short period of time. Risk factors which may increase the chance of death include obesity, prior cardiac or respiratory problems, and the use of illicit drugs such as cocaine. Almost all subjects who have died during restraint have engaged in extreme levels of physical resistance against the restraint for a prolonged period of time. Other issues in the way the subject is restrained can also increase the risk of death, for example kneeling or otherwise placing weight on the subject and particularly any type of restraint hold around the subjects neck.
Some researchers report that the effects of restraint on oxygen levels is limited, and that other factors must be present to explain sudden deaths during restraint. Other researchers point out that deaths in real life situations occur after prolonged, violent resistance which has not been studied in laboratory simulations.
Note I said pin and cuff him.
Curious how long it takes several officers to pin and cuff someone who is already on the floor to begin with. and then to drag him to the squad car?
Or do you place him face down and sit on him for a prolonged period of time while he is dragged there? (of course not)
With out question the subject was certainly cuffed when placed in the squad car
Sorry but in this case the positional asphyxia excuse is a poor reason unless they were planning on holding him there like that for a "prolonged period of time"
I've seen Cops take down and arrest people.and cart them off to the squad car lots of times I know it can be done
"And further the act of pulling away from a police officer trying to make a lawful arrest is resisting arrest and as such in itself authorizes use of force to overcome such resistance"
and if the force is reasonable I have no problem with that.
Repeatedly tasing someone over and over again isnt reasonable,
Once he was tased once he was down already. He should have then been cuffed and dragged away.
furthermore
"The International Association of Chiefs of Police says Tasers are effective if used properly but that more studies are needed.
The group's Taser policy urges officers to use it only to subdue suspects who are violent or about to injure someone; not to use it on a handcuffed person unless he is "overtly assaultive"; to use it the least number of times; and to seek medical attention for anyone who has been shocked.
Now any reasonable person can say that in this incident it definitely was NOT used the least number of times
After the first time the subject could easily have been cuffed.
Repeated Tasings as such are indeed excessive.
If your a trainer in tactics. and THAT is what you teach. Then as a Tax paying civilian I personally dont want you working for me teaching cops that its ok to just keep zapping someone. Who other then simply refusing to co operate is posing no physical threat to them
And it seems the way Cops Zap people in the field is not the way they get zapped in training
The company (Taser international) "points to an estimated 100,000 police officer "volunteers" who have ben shocked with a taser with no deaths
These human trials however do not properly simulate in field taser use and do not account for medical conditions, or stimulants in the large percentage of the population that police would potentially use tasers on"
"Unlike when tasers are used in the field. Tests on police officers often do not subject the volunteers to a full 5 second taser burst,rather,they sometimes only receive a single burst of a half second or less. Even when volunteers receive a full 5 second burst. that does not always correspond with how tasers are used in the feild. according to John Wikswo, a biomedical engineer ad Vanderbuilt University. In the field subjects are often hit with more then one taser burst. And Officers in the field can hold on the taser for longer then 5 seconds resulting in a longer shock"
http://www.cprc.org/docs/aclu.pdf
furthermost. most of the studies on these things were done with Taser International participating in the studies.
That's like asking the DNC and GOP to investigate their respective parties themselves for corruption and expecting them to come back with an honest findings
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Originally posted by zorstorer
No that just means you portray yourself different on here than you do outside of the internet ;)
LOL actually f you looked at alot of my posts as a whole I think you would find it hard to fit me into any one catagory.
I just call it as I see it. Coudnt care less about supporting the politically left or right
C'mon. how many lefties would support my desire that we shoot illegals at the boarder?
:)
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Originally posted by M36
Dred, there have been deaths following taser hits, but death was not from being tased. What you failed to add to some of your examples where the toxicology reports which my have shown drug use of some kind. Granted not in all circumstances, with other contibuting factors, but a lot of the people where on drugs. Again, blaming the taser should be diverted to blame the person on drugs because it was their drug use that led to the the police having to react to the actions of those being tased. And, some of the examples are possibly just bad choices made by officers.
Click here (http://www.azcentral.com/specials/special43/articles/1224taserlist24-ON.html)
Part of this I am going to continue to you in a PM as its suject matter would be inapproperiate here
but
Not denying that drugs werent a xcontributing factor.
but there are also alot of those cases where the tazer was the final straw.
Furthermore. Police do not know the overall medical condition of the people they are tazing ahead of time.
In tests involving police officers. The officers are typically in good to exellent health
And their medical history well documented
That doesnt typically reflect what they face in the real world where anyone drugs or no drugs and reguardless of age can have have a pre existing medical condition where the use of a taser. particularly repeatedly can be fatal.
Any time you shoot someone with electricity no matter how small the amount there is a risk of causing damage or tripping a pre existing condition
also the mere placement of electrical curent can be a major factor.
When shooting a taser at a distance. you dont always get to hit the exact spot you want to
If for that reason and that reason alone the use of a taser should not be a first or even a second option but closer to a third.
Barring a direct and immediate threat to the officers
Verbal orders.
Physical restraint. Pin and cuff (non prolonged)
Then and only then if the subject is resisting physically shold a taser be used. And then only to get him into a prone position to where handcuffs can be placed on his person.
The more you tase the greater the danger
Studies show in healthy people there is no "significant" Damage
The studues do not say no damage at all they say "no significant damage"
And they are done on people already known to be healthy and on a few controled tests on pigs which pointed out
"Specifically, the study examined the pigs' blood and found a jump in the enzyme Troponin T, the body's clearest sign of heart injury. It also found the pigs suffering high levels of blood acid, a potentially life threatening condition called acidosis.
"It's a red flag," says Dr. Charles Rackley, a respected cardiologist at Georgetown University Hospital.
Asked what his diagnosis would be if a patient came to him with these blood levels, Rackley says, "My initial impression would be that meant some heart muscle damage, or heart attack."
Obviously the more the tase is used and the longer its used. the more significant the damage becomes"
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I didn't think I'd write to this thread before the two have proven themselves, but Drediock, your posts are great. I wish I could express myself and bring out my point as well. Yes, I'm being honest.
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Been there and done that!
LEO training requires the probes, "Taser Training" before we can carry it. It's great fun if you're into full body muscle cramps!
Thank god I don't have to be shot just to carry a gun! I don't heal as fast as I did in the 80's.
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Drediok,
This is what you posted...
"The risk of receiving violence comes with the job
Its what your paid for
Exactly why you cant sue your police Dept of your shot in the line of duty.
that danger. Comes with the job"
That certainly sounds to me a lot like police are paid to be assaulted...
In any event I did say police accept the danger as being part of the job and if I incorrectly construed what the point was you were trying to make I apologize...
And NO Police cannot sue our police departments for being shot but they sure can sue the person who shoots them or assaults them..
And Positional Asphyxia is a real danger not an "amusement".. Two people have died in the Pittsburgh Pennsylvania area in the last 15 years as a result of this... This led to State Wide Training on the threat and Dangers of "swarming" to the ground uncooperative suspects..
The fact that you can read some articles or make assumptions that it is easy to place handcuffs on a resisting subject shows you probably have never tried to accomplish such a task... You are further making an assuption that if the officers did swarm him to the ground all resistance was going to immediately stop, thus making positional asphyxia a laughable response to what you posted.
Further Passive Resistance is just what it says resistance..... A person does not have to be Actively Resisting to be Resisting, resisting arrest only requires that their actions require police to use force to overcome the resistance
The fact of the matter is in most use of force policies Tasers are a very low level of use of force...
For an example:
Presence
Verbal Commands
Peper Spray
Taser
Soft Empty Hand Control
Hard Empty Hand Control
Baton
K-9
Less Lethal Applications
Deadly Force
The bottom line is IF YOU OBEY THE ORDERS AND INSTRUCTIONS there need be no further level of force used other than verbal commands..
As stated before the Taser is nothing more than a tool to bring about compliance, as is pepper spray... (Which makes me wonder if we would still be having this debate had the officers used pepper spray several times to bring about the compliance sought)..
And as far as your comment about me being a trainer for police I am and my traning is in application of Deadly Force and the Legal Use of Force in general.. No I do not Train on Tasers and am not an instructor in the use of Tasers... However as this thread had turned into a discussion as to if the Use of Force was excessive or improper I feel my experience (17 years) is applicable..
The fact you would not want me to train any police officers who serve your community makes no difference to me in the least.. for I am not there to train officers based upon someone or anyones personal opinion
(mine included) but am there to train them as to the laws pertaining to use of force and its applications..
I do not care what YOU FEEL should have, would have or could have been done. The only thing I care about and was responding to is did these officers act properly.. Unfortunately my view conflicts with yours, but as I said based solely upon the video what I saw and heard my general opinion is YES.. The actions were Proper and Lawful.
The main thing you are seeking in applications of force below the level of deadly force is compliance... All applications of force above verbal commands is quite frankly about bringing about pain compliance... From wrist locks, to arm bars to pepper spray and yes Tasers..
At times do SOME police officers exceed the levels of force needed to bring about compliance.. Unfortuntely YES THEY DO.. And in my opinion those that do this maliciously are nothing more than common criminals and in fact should be treated more harshly than common criminals.. For they have taken an oath and are there to protect those whom they serve.. They are not above the law and I find these types of officers particularly vile.. for their actions taint all police officers with their actions...
The bottom line is there needed to be no application of force at all had this man made the decision to comply.. there needed to be no more than one had he complied after the initial application of the taser.. HE WAS THE ONE WHO COULD HAVE STOPPED THIS AT ANY TIME BUT FOR WHATEVER REASON MADE THE CHOICE NOT TO..
Now if the post in this thread stating this man was subjected to Taser after leaving and solely based upon the fact "police didnt like what he was saying" are true then this is another matter... For this would not be a improper and unlawful use of force.. But as stated based upon the video only.. the application of force was lawful and justifed..
PS... By the way OZARK LMAO!!!!!! :rofl
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So if the kid wouldnt get out of the road the cops can run him over?
The thing that is disturbing is the amount the kid was tased. I had no problem with one or maybe two, but 5?
Those two cops were much much bigger than this kid and had him under control. They could have cuffed and carried him out of there, but chose to hit him over and over with the taser.
Dont forget their conduct led to the crowd gathering as much as the moron kid did.
If they would have picked him up and dragged him outta there we wouldnt have anything to talk about.
I think they used excessive force on the kid. Did he deserve to get tased, yup. Once they could subdue the kid (especially cuz he was half their size) they should probably have dragged him out and threw him in the clink.
If I am a lawyer in LA, id be drooling for this case. lol
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The guy was an idiot, and one looking for trouble. Universities are full of moderately intelligent people with unrestrained idealism, unlimited free time, and psychological issues.
Somehow, he got exactly what he was looking for: he was tazed, the cops look really bad, and it's national exposure.
Someone anonymously posted this over at slashdot. I can't vouch for its authenticity, but saying the bystanders (ca. 6:50) "back over there, or you're gonna get tazed too" is pretty smart.
As a police officer, I have two things to say about this:
1) This kid sounds like an bellybutton and I'm certain that there will be more than enough "He got what he deserved posts." I might even agree in the moral sense, but not in the ethical or legal sense, because....
2) This cop should never work in law enforcement again. This is inappropriate use of force by any professional standard. One post is not nearly enough to recount the things he did incorrectly, but I'll hit the high points;
General rules for any controlled encounter (one where you aren't in danger from the get go) include finding out what the issue is, telling the subject what he/she needs to do, and explaining what will happen if they do not. There is almost never a need to place your hands on anyone for any reason until you are ready to take them into custody unless you are suddenly attacked. This "officer" is grossly incompetent. Understand we deal with aggressive people that posture by yelling and swearing at us all the time - this should not disrupt the officer on bit. Keep. Your. Cool. So, screaming/swearing or not, this encounter should have been over with three sentences from the officer.
A) "Sir, per university rules and regs, I need you to show me your valid student ID or leave the library."
B) "I need to to show me your valid student ID or leave the library right now, or I'll have to take you into custody for trespassing and disturbing the peace."
C) "Sir, I am placing you under arrest." Then Mirandize him and be done with it. If he does anything but exactly what you tell him ("Sir, place your hands behind your back.") then....
Now and only now, if he/she resists (NOT if he simply fails to cooperate i.e. passive resistence), you may use force sufficient to subdue him to the point of having him cease to be a danger to the officer or bystanders. That's pretty simple stuff, folks. Basically, never be the first to use force, but when you do - do it quickly and overwhelmingly then STOP when he's restrained. You are a trained professional who owns the situation and NOT a street brawler.
From what I can tell, he never told the subject he was under arrest until after at least five taserings, some of which occurred while he was in cuffs and all but the first while he was on the ground unable to stand under his own power. This "officer" grabbed the guy's arm while he was leaving. Bad move, even if it seems like a little thing. Physical contact constitutes use of force, and any trained officer knows this is a big line to cross. I don't care if he didn't leave immediately - in that case place him calmly in custody early on and be done with it, no argument needed. You're the cop; you NEVER need to be in an argument. You aren't asking him what he wants to do, you're telling him. Never ever let a subject think they are in control. Arguing tells the subject they have some power.
What he did is inexcusable. If this power-tripping bully didn't have a badge what would you think of somebody tasering a defenseless person on the ground FIVE TIMES some while he was handcuffed and yelling at him to "get up." A badge doesn't free you from responsibility, it adds to to it exponentially.
This sadistic SOB gives all true professional LEOs a bad name and is part of the reason so many distrust cops. I've had training on most of the common less-than-lethal systems (lawyers don't let us call them non-lethal) including tasers, stun guns, pepper spray, rubber bullets and even conducted some training on the same. Unless this guy was issued a system with no training, he knows damn well the individual won't be getting up immediately after one tasing, let alone five. Frankly, I hope this guy answers for assault charges.
To summarize, to non-cops this might appear to be a case of overreacting during a tense moment with a belligerent person. To most professionals, this is about as vanilla an arrest as there is where the cop did basically everything wrong. So wrong, in fact, I intend to use these videos as a training aid.
This was so absurd that I actually laughed when the guy threatened to to taser the bystander who asked for his name and badge number. It's almost like he was trying to get fired and sued.
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Fishu,
Thank you. I appreciate the compliment
sgt203
"Risk" I kept saying "risk" man
But no problems. I can understand how this can be an emotional subject for you
I must now confess that my comment about wanting you to train or not was made more to see what reaction you would have to it then anything I thought.
You could be the greatest trainer EVAR for all I know. But I dont know ya
I was pleasantly surprised thast you didnt quite give the reaction I was expecting given the last couple of replies. But it was enough for me to make a point.
basically as the comedian said "I told ya that story to be able to tell ya this one"
Really you and all cops for that matter should care. Not so much what I think as an individual. But what the public thinks as a whole.
While the township may sign your paychecks
We the public as a whole are in the end who you are working for.
In your line of work perception can be everything. It can mean the difference in alot of different ways.
the difference can be
Whether it being in control of a situation. Or going overboard like a jackbooted thug can be one taser shock too many in the publics eye
and that can be the difference between having the admiration and support of the public. Or being feared and loathed and huge public outcry.
It is a very very fine line to talk sometimes I know
And perception isnt always fair or even right.
but in he end its always there fair or not.
And in the end the public is who is going to decide for you if it is right or not.
that is why one must be especially careful in what you do. And to whom you do it to
Givent he surroundings. Its not like this was a group of street thugs or gangbangers in the middle of a riot.
This was whitebread (for lack of a bettter term) College kids.
and in the end. Right or not. These cops in the public eye look really REALLY bad.
Fair or not you cant treat everyone the same way and expect the same reaction form the public. Each set of surroundings and circumstances is different. and as such have to be treated differently.
Now what might have gone over as no big deal if it had been done to a gangbanger in the projects of LA
Isnt going to go over well when dealing with a college kid. On campus In a college library.
and its pretty safe to say the college kid is much less of a threat to cops then the gangbanger.
So its important to remember your surroundings
doesnt matter if they were right or wrong in their actions or even if it was lawful or not
These cops succeeded in doing nothing but making everyone including themselves look bad in the public eye
I know it isnt fair. Might not even be right.
But it is the way it is
I'll end this debate here.
Twas fun and interesting. and I now know far more about tasers then I ever thought I would or even wanted to know.
In the end I think the jury is going to be out on them for quite some time.
But it wouldnt suprise me at all if then were removed as a tool in the future.
Untill then Taser international stock is on the rise.. if anyone is intersted LOL
Oh and BTW
Your fired :D
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click (http://freesound.iua.upf.edu/samplesViewSingle.php?id=20555)
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Drediock,
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Its all good....
Differing opinions are natural... (and they make for good healthy debate).
You raised some very good points and they were well reasoned....
I agree with you whole heartedly this will be in the courts for a some time..
As I stated my only response was to post my opinion if this was excessive..
I even stated it was unpleasant to watch, I personally get no satisfaction out of ANY use of force, and wished it never had to happen.. Unfortunately that is not nor will it ever be the case..
When I said I didnt care what anyone really thought about I actually was not referring to the perception or how one would look in the public eye... I agree that the Image and reputation of your department is very important in both how the piublic views you, and at times how the crimnals react to you.. I was referring to the fact that no matter how bad something may look does not in and of itself make it unlawful.. Excessive force is unlawful PERIOD..
Does this look bad... YES, Is it unpleasant YES.. Could they possibly have used other tactics in this case YES.. Will this give their image a black eye YES... Will they be sued in court.. YES I do not disagree with any of those points..
Though I'm not so sure if this had taken place in another location the public outcry would have been much different, maybe, but in that Im not so sure..
For the purpose of the posting I was making though, it makes no difference to me, if this was a gangbanger, junkie, college student, or a US Senator.. Use of force is.. use of force.. the person to whom the force is being applied makes no difference..
When I look at uses of force the only thing I look at is it:
1. Excessive (ie has resistance ceased and compliance been obtained)
2. Proportional ( is the use of force proportional to the resistance)
Being as I stated all I did was see the video, nothing more, I did not see them continue to administer force after complaince was obtained by Tasing this subject.. Once he had complied and they were removing him from the area application of forced ceased. Further as it stands right now with taser being so low on the use of force continuum it was not (like it or not) disproportional..
Now as to my personal opinion would I have done exactly the same thing, probably not (and I highly doubt it).. but my personal opinion does not matter.... I must use a professional opinion based solely upon the law governing the use of force and not using 20/20 hindsight..
Distasteful YES... Ugly.. YES Bad Public Reaction... YES
UNLAWFUL.... NO ( based solely upon what I viewed)..
To make a more thorough examination of the incident would require Police Reports, Use of Force Policy (even though a violation of a departments Use of Force Policy does not make said use of Force Unlawful) (Sacramento vs Lewis), Witness statements, and a better view of the video would be nice..
Drediock I can see by your posts you are not "against" law enforcement, and I have not taken any of this personally, but in this particular instance you feel the officers went overboard... and honestly I can see why people may feel this way based upon what I have viewed...
I too will leave this debate as it stands with the understanding that all people have differing points of view and opinions...
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PS... you cant fire me Im civil service:lol :aok