Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: G0ALY on November 17, 2006, 02:35:20 PM
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Howdy all… My new (used) deer rifle arrived in the mail last night. It’s a replica of an 1853 Enfield .58 caliber musket. This type of weapon was used by both sides during the civil war.
With more and more of my friends switching to lightweight, ultra-modern inline muzzleloaders, I decided to go “Old school”… And there will be none of them fancy sabot rounds and pre-measured pellets of propellant… Its going to be real black powder and correct 525 grain Minnie-balls.
I put a “Hawken” style rifle in the picture to give you an idea of this things size.
(http://www.MyOnlineImages.com/members/goalyeb/images/enfield.jpg)
What do you think, just a little too Freudian?
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;)
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Needs a scope :cool: :p
black powder is a hoot to shoot. whats the range and accuracy of your shot?
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Scopes = blasphemy. Especially on a gun like that.
I have a .50 caliber T/C Grey Hawk. Iron sights. Just like every other weapon I own thanks.
I do carry binoculars though :)
Purdy gun, Goaly.
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Awesome!!
If I ever go hunting..
I'll take my 1861 Springfield Replica .58cal as my main, and perhaps a bolt action as a back up..
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that's about a thirty yard gun if it's a musket and you won't be able to shoot minie ball but round shot.
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hunting is for p*ssys....Be a real man and play Rugby
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jk...I have no problem with the hunting of deer if it is for a purpose more than simply shooting it...What really pisses me off though is big game hunting...I have a good friend who wants to hunt a lion or a tiger one day...I always tell him what a p-ssy he is, and if he were a real man...or if anyone for that matter was a real man, and they wanted to hunt a predator, they should try it with a knife so it's a fair fight...not sitting 200 yards away with a high powered rifle..
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well, if the barrel is rifled great! effective range out to 125- yards or so, if it is smoothbore half that, I just got back today from a day in the woods with my .54 sidelock, I use peep sites for hunting the little blacktail buck I got today was only 40 yards or so with conical bullets.
we still have a tag for my son, I have 2 other 50 cal sidelocks one is a cva kit other is a T/C Hawken. So far the I think I have 3 small bucks and one cow elk with black powder gear I may never hunt center fire again LOL, Oregon limits us to loose powder and conical bullets or balls. no sabots or pellets. and open sites only, I have done ok so far, some of my buds us inlines but I will stick to my side locks. let us know how it shoots:aok
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Originally posted by cav58d
jk...I have no problem with the hunting of deer if it is for a purpose more than simply shooting it...What really pisses me off though is big game hunting...I have a good friend who wants to hunt a lion or a tiger one day...I always tell him what a p-ssy he is, and if he were a real man...or if anyone for that matter was a real man, and they wanted to hunt a predator, they should try it with a knife so it's a fair fight...not sitting 200 yards away with a high powered rifle..
Agreed. Or those guys who go out to these ranches with farm raised game.They choose what they want to "hunt" and are driven out to the herd and pick one.
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Big game trophy hunting pisses me off, but what's wrong with harvesting your own meat? Yea it doesn't say much about their manliness, but still, how is it any different than going to the butcher? Well, the difference is that you know where the meat came from, it's fun for some people, and when procuring meat nowadays, it is actually sort of cool to get involved a little earlier in the process.
Why should some minimum wage cow-killer in a slaughterhouse kill your meat if you're willing to go out and do it yourself? The animal is dead either way, so what's wrong with going out and doing it yourself?
Shooting a penned up deer isn't something I'd go around bragging about but you have to admit, it is just a tiny bit cooler than just going to the butcher. If nothing else, it proves that you freely admit that if you want to eat meat, something's gotta die, and you're willing to do the killing yourself if necessary.
I have friends who eat meat but who also say they'd willingly starve if they had to kill the animal themselves. That's pretty sad...
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Hey Goaly. I bought a rifle just like yours back in April. Haven't hunted with it yet, but it seems reliable and fairly accurate. Had a cataract in right eye fixed (was seeing a double front sight) so gotta go out and try it again. I'm shooting REAL bullets that I cast myself with an aluminum Lyman bullet mold #575. I use Goex FFg black powder...about 65 grains.
I haven't been lubing these bullets but may try to get ahold of a product called Alox. I read where you put some bullets in a sandwich bag along with some Alox and shake 'em and move 'em around for a bit. Dunno if this increases accuracy, but may help with fouling somewhat.
You probably already know about it but a handy device for unloading without firing uses a CO2 cartridge that fits over the nipple and blows the powder and bullet/patched ball out.
Good luck with the Enfield and give us a buck report.
Les
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Shooting times had an article a few months ago on paper wrapping around the bullets. Said it used to be a big deal and is still probably a good thing. Helps accuracy, increases number of shots before fouling becomes an issue.
Not sure it applies...
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I used to hunt with a black powder rifle. My neighbor and I got together and got a couple Thompson kits and built our own Hawkins. We even browned them to keep it more traditional. I did use the adjustable sight however. I like tradition but I'm not a stickler for it. The adjustable sights were far better than a wide fixed notch rear sight.
One of the things I learned is that the REAL bullets do perform a bit better with a coating of a light grease. I kept my ready bullets in a loading block or small single charge speed loaders when hunting. If you use the grease the fouling stays softer and you get more shots before wiping the barrel.
Another thing I learned is that the max pressure load wasn't always the most accurate with those bullets. The load just below max gave the best accuracy and decent velocity as well.
Sabot style bullets didn't work for either of my Hawkin rifles. I just didn't get the accuracy that I did with the REAL bullets. I don't know if they were stripping out on the rifling or what.
I started with real black powder but switched over to Pyrodex. I got far more shots before having to wipe the barrel and having a slightly reduced smoke cloud helped in tracking the deer after the shot. I could see if the deer was hit and how badly depending on its reaction to the impact. With black powder the smoke was too heavy to do that unless there was a decent crosswind. The barrel was slower to rust as well with Pyrodex.
I found CCI caps to be the "hottest" and used Remington caps just to clear the oil out of the nipple and flame bore before loading. I also used "hot shot" nipples. They made it easier to get the old cap off of the nipple for a reload and seemed to have fewer misfires as well.
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Good info Maverick. Thank you. Those Thompson kits are nice, I use to have a .50 Renegade already assembled. Beautiful rifle. Think I'm gonna try that Alox on the REAL bullet. Someone makes expensive hunting pre-lubed bullets, name escapes me, but they're about $25.00 for 50 bullets. May buy a box sometime just to see if they're more accurate. A patched ball for my Enfield is difficult to load even the first round in a clean barrel, very tight fit the entire length of the barrel. And that's with a lubed patch. The REAL bullet is much easier to load. I carry a half inch piece of dowel for a ramrod.
I don't get out too much nowadays to hunt. Not like a few years ago, but am gonna hunt some this year. I've only killed two deer muzzleloading hunting. This year if I can't hit a paper plate sized target at 40 yards consistantly, I won't hunt with it. Most good hunting shot opportunities are within 15 /20 yards in the woods.
Les
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Originally posted by G0ALY
I put a “Hawken” style rifle in the picture to give you an idea of this things size.
What do you think, just a little too Freudian?
Even Freud said "sometimes a cigar is just a cigar"
:D
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Mav,
I use round balls wrapped in wadding and find them to be very much suitable. My father uses a .54 caliber hawken and swears by 'powerband' bullets. Bullet shape with a plastic skirt on the rear of the round which expends and grabs into the rifling.
I've heard/seen/read mixed reviews and questionable performance with them out of some guns but they have more than proven themselves out of my father's hawken. At 100yds he's roughly 2" high. 200yds 2" low and 300 yards something like 8" low.
We're talking 2" groups at the long ranges and I was honestly impressed.
Might be worth picking up a flat of them (20 bullets) to try them through your rifle.
No wadding, grease or other slicky/sticky/smelly stuff on your hands.
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The Minnie balls arrived today. I will be lubing them with “Bore Butter”. It does have a nice rifled barrel, so these should perform well… I’ll let you know. ”
(http://www.MyOnlineImages.com/members/goalyeb/images/mini.jpg)
I am seriously looking into purchasing a mold for these bullets and casting them myself.
Hopefully I will have a chance to get this rifle out and shooting this weekend, because deer season starts on Monday. In Ohio you are limited to shotgun (slug only) or muzzleloaders, there is no high-power rifle season. Also due to the huge increase in the deer population they are encouraging hunters to harvest does.
Either way, I’m looking forward to spending some time in the woods
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"I am seriously looking into purchasing a mold for these bullets and casting them myself."
i dont recomend it. my brother had good equipment and didnt have any luck with casting. much easier to buy good bullets. not to mention the time involved and the lead exposure.
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agreed. stick with molding jigheads not bullets.
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wonderfull looking weapon goaly, you must be thrilled to pieces with it, i bet its feel good in your hands compared to an M4 rifle with super heat lazer tracking tank destroying foam deployment options.
also excelnt posts eagl, S!
first time i caught a trout I was hunting it up and down a mile stretch of shallow stream for 3 hours with my friend luke, we were 7 years old and we used bamboo canes to shatter its spine by a hit to the dorsal fin. the hunt consisted of crepping through crystal clear 2 foot deep water and getting within striking distance of our prey only to have him dart off up or downstream at 250mph just before we could reach him. in the end we outsmarted the fish (woowooo! gotta start small:D ) by creeping up near him and throwing stones to disturb the surface 10yrds the other side of him, silly bugger swam right into my leg and i finaly got enough of a target to disable him. flipped him onto the bank and had to crush his skull with a heavy log. we took him home is a wet jersey and ate him. that night at bed time i remember almost crying about the life i had taken, and my mother consoling me. i think she was just happy to have beautifully fresh brown trout for supper. the best part looking back now is that we were dressed in camo dpms with face paint, and it was in the 100 acre estate owned by Sir Francis Dashwood, where the game keeper used to shoot tresspasers with a 4-10 shotgun for sport. the fearless innocence of childhood and the thrill of hutning killing and eating an animal in an untouched paradise of lakes and elaborate statues and buildings, with the extra thrill of it being highly dangerous with human enemys to contend with...and all this not more than 20 miles from the edges of the decayed sprall of London....i truly led a privelidged childhood, and we never had enough money to simply buy privelidges, they were there just for the takin made by the planet for me.
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Goally,
Before you start casting your own check on the cost of good PLAIN lead. You can sometimes get it from plumbing supply houses. If you cast for black powder you'll need pure or plain lead and not an alloy. That means no scrap lead like you could use for other cartidges.
This might make the cost of "rolling your own" a bit higher than buying them pre cast. Another consideration would be that hollow cavity slugs like that can be hard to cast.
The equipment is simple, a coleman stove, melting pot, dipping ladle and the mold. It WILL take time to get good slugs but if you get the temp right and have a good roll of luck you can get a bunch cast in an afternoon. Casrt in an area of GOOD ventilation, preferably with a breeze blowing across you and towards the melting pot so you are breathing fresh air all the time.
I did cast my own REAL bullets but didn't bother with the hollow points or round ball. Round ball was cheap to buy. I figured with a .50 cal and soft lead the solid slugs would be fine. They worked great in my old .45 kit gun.
Golfer,
I haven't fired my smokepole for a while. It's in storage right now. Since I was using it strictly for hunting I went for a conical bullet rather than round ball. I had better accuracy with the conical or REAL bullets than ball in this particular rifle. At .50 cal the round ball had a reasonable amount of weight but when I started out it was with the .45 and that was too small to hunt deer with IMO being only 125 grains. The TC conical bullet was over 225 gr. and had far better ballistics. I cast them for the rifle until I wore out the barrel.
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Goaly,
Both are fantastic rifles. I just picked up a Traditions 50 cal flint lock pistol. Where I don't think I'll hunt with it, shooting it is just a blast! The best thing about black powder, is after about 3 or 4 shots all the bugs at the range are dead from the smoke!
When I got this pistol, I thought it strange, I found my self sitting at the computer reading up on how firearms of the early 18th century worked! I had to relearn the technology
Good luck at your hunt!
Phaser11
Shoot safe, Shoot often and share your sport!
!
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Some notes, shooting with the Minies...
1. Dont overlube them. The nice thing about using Minie-ball as your bullets is that they expand at the base when you fire, so the skirt contacts the rifling. The major reason for rifling in black powder guns is to give the gunk somewhere to go, not to provide better accuracy. With the twisted grooves in the barrel, the crud leftover after the shot goes down there and leaves the barrel itself free of obstructions longer, so you can get more shots fired before you have to clean it. All you want is just enough lube to fill those grooves in the skirt. When the skirt expands, the lube will catch the gunk in them from the previous shot, and carry it out the barrel, helping keep the barrel clean enough to continuously fire. If you put too much lube on the bullet, it wont really do any harm, but it will make more of a mess. And if it gets down into your powder, it can cause clumping and uneven fire.
2. After firing, remove the percussion cap, place the stock on the ground, and blow into the barrel. Dont want to chance pouring powder in for your next shot and having a spark glowing down there in a little lump of powder that didnt go off with the rest. Good way to lose some eyebrows.
3. When you put the Minie into the barrel, you dont patch it like you do a round ball, and you certainly dont have to ram it. You dont want to accidentally deform the bullet. Just use the rod and lightly tap it to make sure its all the way down and didnt catch on anything. The Minie is designed to DROP in, because of the skirt expansion. It will be plenty large enough when the explosion starts it down the barrel.
4. If you decide to cast your own, check with tire stores for used wheel weights. Great source of free lead. Be cautious casting Minie-balls though, because of the way they need to expand. The skirt needs to be just right, and there should be "cuts" on the side where the lead is VERY thin (this helps with the expansion of the skirt). Try to find some folks who already make their own if you are serious about it, and watch how they do it.
As noted already, if you cast your own lead, make sure you have proper ventilation, good equipment, and proper protective gear. A good leather apron is priceless for this kind of work. Lead melts at 360 degrees. You dont want to slop that on you.
Enjoy your rifle. :) They are quite accurate and hit with LOTS of power.
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Agree with the above except for number two. Sure it's on the safe side but it's more of an old wives tale.
It has probably happened but it would have been either in combat or some other situation that would warrant loading the gun much much much faster than you'd ever intend.
At my ho hum pace of loading at the range (and in the woods really) I'm probaby around 2 minutes per shot. After a couple shots it's time to get out the hammer and tap the ball down the barrel using the starter and glove to cushion the impact.
I've fired multiple times in the woods twice with muzzleloaders. The most recent I successfully killed a tree with a .54 caliber hawken. The deer I shot at didn't run so I made like davy crockett and just started pouring powder down the barrel. Rammed home a bullet and put on a new cap. Loaded in ready to fire in record time (maybe 30 seconds for me). I fired from a prone position shooting down a hill. The good news is the gun didn't go off due to burning cinders/embers. On to the bad news...
Long story short when I woke up it had started snowing and i was looking up at the sky with blood running down my nose. Looked around and I'd slid backwards down the lime pile I was laying on top of and the gun was next to me slightly further down the hill. I crawled back up to the top of the pile and looked to see that there was a dead deer and wondered how long I'd been out.
Long story short...use a powder measure. I estimated I used about 300 grain worth of powder when I intended to use 120.
ooooops.
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Golfer, those old wives got the story from somewhere. :)
Like many accidents involved in black powder shooting, it wont happen often. But when it does you'll remember it forever, and be damn lucky if you dont lose your eyes in the process.
I load and use black powder all the time. In percussion cap guns, flintlocks, and in black powder catridges. I use BP guns in shooting competitions, in demonstrations, for hunting, and just for fun. I've encountered many "old wives tales" that modern shooters tell me I dont have to give any thought to. I usually hear later on they had some accident. I dont want to join their ranks. An extra couple of seconds to be on the safe side is worth it to me.
Rule 1 of shooting. BE SAFE.
Rule 2 of shooting. HAVE FUN.
If there is ever any necessity to choose between the two, remember which one is number 1.
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2. After firing, remove the percussion cap, place the stock on the ground, and blow into the barrel. Dont want to chance pouring powder in for your next shot and having a spark glowing down there in a little lump of powder that didnt go off with the rest. Good way to lose some eyebrows.
Agree with most everything but this SoA. If there was a glowing clump and you fanned it by blowing down the barrel, what do you think would happen?:
I was taught to leave the cap on the nipple after firing with hammer closed, so no air could get through there and fan possible glowing remnants of a cloth patch. Wait a couple minutes and then load not from the flask but from a powder measure. Then if it does go off it's only 65 grains and not a flask.
This can't be said enough and repeated again and again. Avoid any habit or custom of having your face anywhere near the muzzle at all times except when cleaning or inspecting the bore. Always hold the rifle at an angle away when using a ramrod and make sure the bullet is seated firmly on the charge. Black powder will go off by percussion and possibly by ramming too hard. A space between the powder and the ball may cause the rifle barrel to break open when fired. Couple firm pushes along with measuring by means of the ramrod the distance a properly loaded charge would be (if in doubt) seats the bullet next to the powder. Spectators should not be off to the side but behind the shooter.
Always unload when in camp. It's easy to reload. A dropped rifle could go off. Treat the rifle as if it could go off by it's own will at any time. Don't stand in front of or point at anything that wouldn't look good with a big hole in it.
Les
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Originally posted by Leslie
2. After firing, remove the percussion cap, place the stock on the ground, and blow into the barrel. Dont want to chance pouring powder in for your next shot and having a spark glowing down there in a little lump of powder that didnt go off with the rest. Good way to lose some eyebrows.
Agree with most everything but this SoA. If there was a glowing clump and you fanned it by blowing down the barrel, what do you think would happen?:
I was taught to leave the cap on the nipple after firing with hammer closed, so no air could get through there and fan possible glowing remnants of a cloth patch. Wait a couple minutes and then load not from the flask but from a powder measure. Then if it does go off it's only 65 grains and not a flask.
Les
The reasoning I was given was that it did several things. Your exhaled breath has more carbon dioxide than oxygen. Any small clumps of powder that might have an ember glowing arent going to be big enough to do anything to hurt you, and there's plenty of room down there for it to burn out. The breath also moves air down the barrel to help cool it off in between shots. By the time you have measured your powder and are ready to reload, there shouldnt be anything left dangerous in the barrel (if there ever was).
I heartily agree, you should NEVER put your face near the barrel once you start pouring powder in it. Inevitably though, people do look down the barrel when they pour in the powder. I also agree with using the measure to pour in the powder instead of the flask, although I'm guilty of doing that myself when I'm in a hurry.
Couple more things that you reminded me of as well. If you EVER have any doubt whether you already loaded the gun and cant remember, cap it and fire it (in a safe direction of course). Wasting a cap is much preferred to wasting the gun (and maybe your life) if you double load it. If you load it and fire it and the gun doesnt go off, dont assume it wont. Wet or clumpy powder can get a spark in it and burn slow, and ignite as much as a minute or two later. Let it sit, pointed in a safe direction, until you are fairly sure it wont go off, and then you can start procedures to try to unload it. I highly recommend a CO2 discharge system for this. I've used them a few times, they work great. Fast, easy, and much safer than using a ball puller because you dont have to put ANYTHING in front of the barrel.
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The number one rule of fire arm safety:
1. Always tread every fire arm as if it were loaded.
That makes putting your mouth over the muzzle of the gun and blowing ... right out. Or, was this a joke? If it was, it was in very poor taste.
The number two rule for muzzle loading firearms:
2. Always measure and add power from a separate powder measurer and never put powder in directly from the powder flask. This is especially true for rifles. Cap and ball revolvers aren't as critical because if you put too much powder, the ball won't fit.
I don't put on a percussion cap until the last step, but I do put it on so I know the gun is loaded. Black powder guns are a hoot. I looked into smokeless black powder alternatives, but the smoke is part of the fun! When did they start rifling muskets?
Regards,
Malta
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No it's not a joke. I've done it myself without thinking. It serves no purpose. I do check out the .270 by opening the bolt and looking down the barrel when I'm hunting, to make sure nothing is in the barrel to start out with. Obsessive complusive I guess.
Les
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Blowing down the barrel of a smoke pole was more for adding moisture to the fouling and helping to keep it soft. It also helped to indicate the touch hole or percussion nipple was still open for the next shot. Not a good idea at all.
There is more than enough O2 in your breath to sustain and fan burning. The CO2 isn't high enough to extinguish any embers.
Always always load from a measure and NEVER from your flask. Doing otherwise means you are loading a weapon with a hand grenade.
Never put your body parts directly over the muzzle of the weapon. Don't use your palm to tamp the rod, always grip it so the rod will slip through your grip and not through your hand. Same for a ball starter.
If you are unsure of the load status, use your ran rod. Load the weapon innitially. Drop the ramrod down the barrel, get a felt tip marker and mark the ramrod at the point it just exits the barrel. That is your load marker. If the ramrod mark goes well into the barrel on a check, it's unloaded. If you see the mark at all, it's loaded. Use a barrel or ball worm to unload the gun. Firing the load at the end of a day on a hunt will cause it to absorb moisture during the night and can keep it from firing with a fresh charge in the morning.
Always cap the gun as the last step before firing. Never never put a cap on the nipple before it's loaded and you are going to fire.
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Originally posted by Maverick
Blowing down the barrel of a smoke pole was more for adding moisture to the fouling and helping to keep it soft. It also helped to indicate the touch hole or percussion nipple was still open for the next shot. Not a good idea at all.
There is more than enough O2 in your breath to sustain and fan burning. The CO2 isn't high enough to extinguish any embers.
Hrm, guess I'm getting too used to being in "devils advocate" mode and got argumentative. I dont disagree, I was just pointing out what I had been taught to do by oldtimers, and why (now that you mention it, I remember them mentioning the moisture thing too). I'm not quite dumb enough to think there arent better ways to do it or that I could be wrong. All the arguments against make sense.
One thing I've found though, is that alot of the traditional ways of doing things developed for a good reason. Sometimes we really dont know more than the old farts, and I try to keep that in mind.
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i have a 30-30 and a 30-06:noid :furious :t
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Originally posted by Leslie
No it's not a joke. I've done it myself without thinking. It serves no purpose. I do check out the .270 by opening the bolt and looking down the barrel when I'm hunting, to make sure nothing is in the barrel to start out with. Obsessive complusive I guess.
Les
its bein safe i respect that
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Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Hrm, guess I'm getting too used to being in "devils advocate" mode and got argumentative. I dont disagree, I was just pointing out what I had been taught to do by oldtimers, and why (now that you mention it, I remember them mentioning the moisture thing too). I'm not quite dumb enough to think there arent better ways to do it or that I could be wrong. All the arguments against make sense.
One thing I've found though, is that alot of the traditional ways of doing things developed for a good reason. Sometimes we really dont know more than the old farts, and I try to keep that in mind.
Some times the old ways kept on just because they just didn't know any better......(JK :)) In the reading I did on some of the Mountain men they gave the moisture bit for the reason but that was only when they needed a quick reload too. I never had any reason to test the theory, I just swabbed the bore at 3 shots. It got way too hard to load with the shallow rifling on my TC kit gun if I didn't.
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A couple of points.
Before you ever load a new black powder rifle for the first time, drop the ramrod down the bore. Mark it where it exits the muzzle. Now, de-capped, load powder and ball/bullet (I use prelubed wonder wads under the bullet). After ramming home the bullet and charge, mark the ramrod where it exits the muzzle.
Should you ever find yourself wondering if the rifle is loaded, make sure there's no cap on the nipple, and with the hammer on halfcock, drop in the ramrod, which will now tell you if it's loaded or not. Simple as simple gets.
Second point. Rifling was added to black powder rifles specifically to improve accuracy, not to provide a volume for residual fouling. The use of pre-lubed wads under the bullet will help keep the fouling soft. You need only run a bore brush in and out a few times to remove the worst of the fouling during a range session. If excessive fouling is an issue, consider the use of Pyrodex instead of black powder. It burns cleaner and can be used in any rifle that normally uses BP.
As to reloading with a powder measure or horn... Hunters should consider buying plastic speed loaders. These are plastic tubes with an internal divider. One side contains pre-measured powder, the other side a wad and bullet. Pop one cap off, pour in powder, pop the other cap and push in the wad and bullet. Fast, easy and error free. Carry about 5 or 6 speed loaders in you pocket.
A friend of mine took a buck with a Navy Arms 1853 Enfield at about 90 yards.. It's a fine rifle.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by storch
that's about a thirty yard gun if it's a musket and you won't be able to shoot minie ball but round shot.
round shot is good, no? :lol
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Well, The Enfield was taken to the range today and WOW! Was it interesting!
We began by using 70 grains of real black powder. At 50 yards the first volley of 6 rounds were in a 6-inch group, aprox. five inches above the bull’s-eye. Not too bad for open sights.
Then it got real weird…
We opened a brand new container of one of those black powder substitutes. We wanted to compare the pattern to good old black powder. A huge reduction in recoil was noticed, and the pattern opened up. It opened WAY UP!…
Of the next six shots fired, only two holes could be found in the 4-FOOT by 4-FOOT piece of cardboard we had our bull’s-eye centered on. The two holes we 3 foot apart, and both of the holes were misshapen. One was oblong and the other was the perfect profile of the minnie ball… Obviously the bullets tumbling as they were going down range. But what caused this? And where did the other four rounds go?
I switched back to the real black powder and the group tightened right back up. The recoil also returned too its previous level.
I had also brought my Pedersoli 12gauge side-by-side muzzle-loading shotgun to the range today, so we preformed a little test… I loaded it just as I normally do, but I used the new powder. I then fired it towards the target… Once again there was a noticeable drop in recoil, and this time we could see a burning wad fly about 10 yards down the range. I had never seen in flight, or even found on the ground, a wad that had been fired form this gun.
After much thought, here is my hypothesis: The new black powder substitute was defective. It was extremely slow burning. This would account for the reduction in recoil, and it would explain why I could see the wad after it had been left the shotgun barrel… The powder that had been packed against it, was stuck to it, and was still burning as it went down the range.
As for the 4 missing .58 caliber minnie balls… I believe that the hollow base of the bullet was filled with the defective slow-burning powder. This powder was compressed into the hollow base of the bullet when the ball was packed onto the powder by the ramrod during the loading process. When the musket was fired, the cone shaped charge of powder in the base of the bullet was still burning after it had left the end of the barrel. This gave the minnie balls the characteristics of an unguided, un-stabilized, missile. And they propelled themselves at least the two feet required to completely miss the target.
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Originally posted by G0ALY
We opened a brand new container of one of those black powder substitutes. We wanted to compare the pattern to good old black powder. A huge reduction in recoil was noticed, and the pattern opened up. It opened WAY UP!…
What was the BP substitute? What granulation?
I have used Pyrodex in several of my muzzle loaders and they all shot nice tight groups.. I suggest Pyrodex Select or RS.
My regards,
Widewing
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It was American Pioneer Powder in FFG.
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Originally posted by G0ALY
It was American Pioneer Powder in FFG.
I've never used their powder. So, I checked their website.
I don't see any recommended loads for a .58 cal rifle on the American Pioneer website. Below is from the website.
Bore dia/volume or powder/weight of bullet/velocity
.45 caliber/100 grains of FFG Powder/250 Grains/1912 fps
.50 caliber/100 grains of FFG Powder/240 Grains/1823 fps
.50 caliber/120 grains of FFG Powder/240 Grains/1905 fps
If you were shooting with just 70 grains under a 350 grain bullet, you could expect erratic performance and very light recoil. I suggest you consult the user's manual that came with the rifle and see what loads are recommended. I suspect that you may be very much limited by allowable chamber pressures.
Using Pyrodex in my Hawkin rifles, I typically use 120 to 130 grain charges. But, these are heavy-walled barrels that have been proofed with 3 times that load.
You can e-mail American Pioneer through their website (http://www.americanpioneerpowder.com/index.html) and quiz them about your problem.
My regards,
Widewing
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i sometimes imagine the deer being nazis or new york yankee unionists as i pull the trigger.
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I've used pyrodex in my rifles. I found that they use the same VOLUME of pyrodex for the same weight of black powder. In other words I used the same measure of pyrodex as I used for black powder. Pyro was a bit harder to ignite so I used the hottest caps I cold find which were CCI's.