Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: bj229r on November 20, 2006, 08:54:14 PM
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link (http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=23097_ISNA_Survey-_Paranoia_Conspiracy_Theories_Support_for_Violence&only)
I could understand if this poll was taken in Pakistan or somethin....
At the annual convention of the Islamic Society of North America (a radical Islamic front group that has been the subject of numerous LGF posts), a survey was taken of 307 attendees on their attitudes toward America—with very disturbing results: Survey Conducted At 2006 ISNA Convention. (Hat tip: saywhat?)
1. Are you a U.S. Citizen? (If no, then don’t fill out survey.)
YES - 307
NO - 0
2. Do you consider yourself to be a Muslim first, an American first, or both equally?
MUSLIM FIRST - 214
AMERICAN FIRST - 4
BOTH EQUALLY - 86
UNDECIDED - 3
3. Is the American government at war with the religion of Islam?
YES - 208
NO - 79
UNDECIDED - 20
4. Can a good Muslim be a good American?
YES - 292
NO - 11
UNDECIDED - 4
5. Did Muslims hijack planes and fly them into buildings on 9/11?
YES - 117
NO - 139
UNDECIDED - 51
6. Did the U.S. government have advance knowledge of the 9/11 attacks, and allow the attacks to occur?
YES - 200
NO - 70
UNDECIDED - 37
7. Did the U.S. government organize the 9/11 attacks?
YES - 106
NO - 151
UNDECIDED - 50
8. Are the tapes of Osama Bin Laden, claiming responsibility for the 9/11 attacks and threatening future attacks, real or fake?
REAL - 126
FAKE - 129
UNDECIDED - 52
9. Did Muslims commit the July 2005 train and bus bombings in London?
YES - 140
NO - 104
UNDECIDED - 63
10. The Canadian government says it stopped a plot by Canadian Muslims in June 2006 to attack targets in Canada. Do you believe there was a real plot by Muslims?
YES - 61
NO - 202
UNDECIDED - 44
11. The British government says it stopped a plot by British Muslims in August 2006 to bomb planes flying to America. Do you believe there was a real plot by Muslims?
YES - 66
NO - 191
UNDECIDED - 50
12. Is Al Qaeda a real organization, operated by Muslims who are trying to attack America?
YES - 149
NO - 109
UNDECIDED - 49
13. Is Al Qaeda attacking America because Al Qaeda hates American freedoms?
YES - 17
NO - 269
UNDECIDED - 21
14. Is Al Qaeda attacking America because Al Qaeda hates American involvement in the Muslim world?
YES - 228
NO - 54
UNDECIDED - 25
There’s more. Most of the respondents think our attack on Afghanistan after 9/11 was not justified.
25. Was America justified in invading Afghanistan after 9/11?
YES - 51
NO - 248
UNDECIDED - 8
And large percentages also believe Muslims have the right to commit violence against Americans, both overseas and in this country.
26. Is violence by Muslims against American civilians acceptable, in retaliation for the American government’s actions in the Muslim world?
YES - 23
NO - 274
UNDECIDED - 10
27. Is violence by Muslims against the American military overseas acceptable, in retaliation for the American government’s actions in the Muslim world?
YES - 134
NO - 154
UNDECIDED - 19
28. Is violence by Muslims against the American military in the U.S. acceptable, in retaliation for the American government’s actions in the Muslim world?
YES - 73
NO - 211
UNDECIDED - 23
29. Is violence by Muslims against American government officials acceptable, in retaliation for the American government’s actions in the Muslim world?
YES - 51
NO - 231
UNDECIDED - 25
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not so surprising...
look at how the guilty/not guilty thing still plays out over the OJ Simpson verdict...
whites say: guilty
blacks say: not:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by xrtoronto
not so surprising...
look at how the guilty/not guilty thing still plays out over the OJ Simpson verdict...
whites say: guilty
blacks say: not:rolleyes:
Basically, racists think that OJ was not guilty.
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Ever notice how Democrats Troll everywhere?
Pack it up and take it to PETA maybe they'll cry for you.
Sheesh,
Mac
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The purpose of the survey was to better understand the views of American Muslims on issues relating to Islam, Muslims, and American national security. It is important to let Muslims articulate their varied opinions on these issues in order to encourage dialogue within the Muslim community and with the rest of American society.
However, this was NOT a scientific survey, because ISNA Convention attendees who visited the Muslims For A Safe America booth are not necessarily representative of the American Muslim community as a whole.
There's some interesting dialogue on their web site. It's worth reading. (Most of it anyway)
Source (http://muslimsforasafeamerica.org/?p=48)
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These are probably a pretty close reflection of the truth.
13. Is Al Qaeda attacking America because Al Qaeda hates American freedoms?
YES - 17
NO - 269
UNDECIDED - 21
14. Is Al Qaeda attacking America because Al Qaeda hates American involvement in the Muslim world?
YES - 228
NO - 54
UNDECIDED - 25
Doesn't make it sane, just the truth. And quite a bit different than the fear mongers tales out of Washington.
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I'd rather have "fear monger's" in DC anyday of the week instead of "peace in our timer's".
(http://i59.photobucket.com/albums/g308/txflood77598/david_woodersonSMALL.jpg)
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Originally posted by midnight Target
These are probably a pretty close reflection of the truth.
Doesn't make it sane, just the truth. And quite a bit different than the fear mongers tales out of Washington.
The poll was of American Muslims. They're subject to the same propaganda as the rest of us are, to wit: it's America's fault. The real truth is a little more complicated. Bin Ladin and his Sunni/Wahabist ilk want to recreate the Muslim conquests of the 7th century and re-establish the Islamic Caliphate based on Shari'a law, or, to put it another way the "establishment of Allah's Rule on Earth". The radicals believe they are entitled to reclaim all land that was conquered during the Muslim crusades because once an area is conquered by the Muslims it is given to them by Allah and is forever theirs by right. Just in case you're not clear as to what this entails, they would be reclaiming all the land from Spain (Andalusia) to India...that's just to start. The Shia side of the equation is driven to a very large degree by the desire for Iranian hegemony and essentially re-establishment of the Persian empire. Of course that gameplan also includes Shari'a.
They like to place all the blame for conflict on the US and Israel which isn't much different than Hitler's portrayal of the Jews as the root of all evil to unite the German people in his "crusade" or the Japanese blaming WWII on the American embargo which, of course, was a direct result of Japanese fun and games in Manchuria. There is no doubt that like Hitler and Tojo, Islamist leaders are using actions by the US as recruiting tools, that's the way war works. I'm also sure that much of the Ummah probably do actually believe this is all about America and Israel. Just look at the self-denial in the answers to questions in this survey. It would have been an even more interesting survey had they asked questions related to Muslim conquest and what the "perfect" world would look like.
The reason the Islamists don't like us is 1) because we're standing in the way, 2) we represent moral and social values that are anethma to Islam. As to 1, I'm proud that we're standing in their way. As far as 2 is concerned, I'm shocked that Liberals, who love to espouse tolerance are so willing to tolerate such an intolerant religion. I guess the thinking here is "at least they aren't Republicans." Maybe those of you worried about "fear mongers" ought to read a little more than liberal blogs to get your info.
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Oh come on...this survey is like asking members of PETA if they think hamburgers are good....the results are gonna be a *bit* skewed.
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fearmongers beats fishmongers too (unless they are smelly fearmongers)
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Originally posted by RightF00T
Oh come on...this survey is like asking members of PETA if they think hamburgers are good....the results are gonna be a *bit* skewed.
LOL:aok
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Originally posted by AWMac
Ever notice how Democrats Troll everywhere?
Pack it up and take it to PETA maybe they'll cry for you.
Sheesh,
Mac
Hmmm... I'm looking at the posts above this and I can't find the Democrat.
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I don't like it asks if you're a Muslim first or an American first.
The whole separation of church and state has gotten lost somewhere and "American" in that survey is a religion.
You can be an American and a Muslim at the same time.
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I doubt you'd see many differences in survey of christians sayyyyyy on the bosnian conflict.
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Originally posted by Vulcan
I doubt you'd see many differences in survey of christians sayyyyyy on the bosnian conflict.
Most Americans know even less about the Bosnian conflict than they do about Islamists.
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yep... I would love some liberal here to explain how they can tollerate such an intolerant and backwards religion like the muslim one...
I would think that jon stewart for instance would be making fun of burkas and showing obscene pictures of the prophet and such...
That liberal womens rights groups would be spending all their time condeming the religion.
Why is that not happening? chicken?
lazs
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Originally posted by Golfer
I don't like it asks if you're a Muslim first or an American first.
The whole separation of church and state has gotten lost somewhere and "American" in that survey is a religion.
You can be an American and a Muslim at the same time.
There was a choice "both equally" to that question. Not so many chose it.
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The liberals (who I think would find an Islamic government oppressive in the extreme) don't believe that Islam can usurp the existing American liberality. Those who reject so vehemently Christianity may find they do so with Islam at far greater peril.
I could be wrong. There might be a nation in this world wherein the majority of the populace is Muslim yet the society and goverment are liberal?
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Originally posted by Golfer
I don't like it asks if you're a Muslim first or an American first.
The whole separation of church and state has gotten lost somewhere and "American" in that survey is a religion.
You can be an American and a Muslim at the same time.
You've got a point, in the US you can be both, at least that's the way the Constitution sees it. But, let's turn it around. In an Islamic republic or the Caliphate, Islam is the government and all law is Allah's, there is no such thing as "man's" law and non-secular government is illigitimate. The point to the question in the survey is to ask where Muslim loyalties lie but since Islam ultimately believes religion and government are one in the same the question is non-sensical.
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Originally posted by lukster
The liberals (who I think would find an Islamic government oppressive in the extreme) don't believe that Islam can usurp the existing American liberality. Those who reject so vehemently Christianity may find they do so with Islam at far greater peril.
I could be wrong. There might be a nation in this world wherein the majority of the populace is Muslim yet the society and goverment are liberal?
No, there isn't, at least in the American or Western understanding of "liberal". Western liberalism generally means you can do pretty much whatever you want and no one is allowed to "judge" you or impose their religion or morality on you. This is diametrically opposed to Islam. Christians may tell you that what you're doing is wrong and sometimes will attempt to pass laws to stop what they view is immoral but these actions are tempered by democracy unlike Islam. Shari'a law, since it is Allah's will, is absolute, you do not get a say. There is no "live and let live" in Islam.
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Originally posted by bj229r
And large percentages also believe Muslims have the right to commit violence against Americans, both overseas and in this country.
Come again? By the very figures you quote, 89% think that attacks on US civilians are not justifiable, and those that think attacks against US troops overseas are not justifiable are also in the majority (50%), rising to 68% thinking such attacks are not justified in the US. Also, 75% think that attacks against US government officials are not justifiable.
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Originally posted by Momus--
Come again? By the very figures you quote, 89% think that attacks on US civilians are not justifiable, and those that think attacks against US troops overseas are not justifiable are also in the majority (50%), rising to 68% thinking such attacks are not justified in the US. Also, 75% think that attacks against US government officials are not justifiable.
The point he's making is not the percentage of those that don't think this stuff is acceptable, the issue is the percentage that DO:
All these percentages are of those who expressed an opinion:
Is American at war with Islam: Yes 72%
Attacks against US civilians acceptable: Yes 8%
Attacks against US military overseas is acceptable: Yes 47%
Attacks agsinst US military in the US is acceptable: Yes 25%
Attacks against US government officials is acceptable: Yes 18%
I'd say those numbers are pretty significant considering these are supposedly US citizens.
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The poll was of American Muslims.
Yes, but more accurately, the Poll was of: The Islamic Society of North America (a radical Islamic front group).
So it represents the view of about 300 radical muslims living in the US (with a population of 300 million, and an islamic population of perhaps 7 million). Hardly surprising. I Imagine you could easily find 300 Jews, Christians or Hindus that Identify with their religion more than their nation, and that have extreme positions. Does Fred Phelps represent all Christians, or even evangelical Christians for that matter? Hell, you can find 300 pasty skinned Internet conspiracy theorists (if not 3,000 or more) that think the same way regarding 9/11.
FWIW I saw the leader of one of the major Muslim groups (can't remember which one, but it's based in Chicago -- CAIR perhaps) on a BBC "hardball" type program who was more than willing to draw a distinction between an immature Muslim community (such as that in Britain) and a mature community such as that in the US where there is a real effort to assimilate with the communtiy at large. He pulled no punches concering radicals, and handled some very tough questioning, very well.
I'll start worrying when we start to have the same community issues muslims are generating in Europe.
Charon
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Is the Islamic Society of North America a radical front group? I'm not doubting you and we have lots in the US that are, I just hadn't heard that it ISNA was more radical than most other groups. CAIR for instance has been a constant apologist for Islamic extremism and has been linked with HAMAS.
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According to the poster it is. And, it represents the view of 300 individuals total, again according to the poster.
As for CAIR -- I'm not sure if that was the group the leader belonged to, just a guess (but I believe it was). I watched the show in passing while in Germany and wasn't taking notes at the time. I did note the same speaker was interviewed earlier in the International Herald Tribune and was in the UK meeting with European muslim leaders. He pertty much came out and said that muslims have to come out of the 14th century and get with the modern world -- especially those communities in Europe.
As for links to HAMAS, he addressed that saying he disagreed with the terrorist elements but found it hard not to support the hospitals etc. when there were no alternatives to serve those communities. His overall message was not positive to radicals by any stretch of the imagination, was anti Jihad and pro integration into the general culture of the West if you are living in the West. For example, where wearing burkas is concerend (a big issue in Europe and one he was grilled on) he supported the general individual right, as I recall, but saw the real secuirty concerns and the degree with which it creates problems with assimilation in society. Really, a call for Muslims to have some common sense on the issues and to work as part of the system instead of outside of the system.
He seemed very moderate.
Charon
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Originally posted by Golfer
I don't like it asks if you're a Muslim first or an American first.
The whole separation of church and state has gotten lost somewhere and "American" in that survey is a religion.
You can be an American and a Muslim at the same time.
The survey didn't state that they had to be one or the other. It did not specify one over the other. It ASKED what the RESPONDENTS opinion was. I found the answers to be rather what I expected. You could have gone to a Hispanic neighborhood on the South side of Tucson or better yet in Nogsales AZ. and substituted Mexican for muslim in the same questions and gotten pretty much the same answers.
Polls are not a neutral item to determine an overall average opinion when the selected pool of respondants is in itself skewed or the questions are skewed either.
1. Are you a U.S. Citizen? (If no, then don’t fill out survey.)
YES - 307
NO - 0
2. Do you consider yourself to be a Muslim first, an American first, or both equally?
MUSLIM FIRST - 214
AMERICAN FIRST - 4
BOTH EQUALLY - 86
UNDECIDED - 3
3. Is the American government at war with the religion of Islam?
YES - 208
NO - 79
UNDECIDED - 20
4. Can a good Muslim be a good American?
YES - 292
NO - 11
UNDECIDED - 4
In the case of the questions I find that they do not indicate a specific bias per se, however the selected pool of respondents certainly is not going to be representative of the overall American population. The respondents were a specifically targeted population, wtf did you expect for answers? The bias of the population is rather expected to be there given the perseptions of the populations. Had you taken the survey to say, Oral Roberts University at the base of his "tower of power" would you expect to get the saem freaking answers?
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Originally posted by Maverick
The survey didn't state that they had to be one or the other. It did not specify one over the other. It ASKED what the RESPONDENTS opinion was. I found the answers to be rather what I expected. You could have gone to a Hispanic neighborhood on the South side of Tucson or better yet in Nogsales AZ. and substituted Mexican for muslim in the same questions and gotten pretty much the same answers.
Polls are not a neutral item to determine an overall average opinion when the selected pool of respondants is in itself skewed or the questions are skewed either.
1. Are you a U.S. Citizen? (If no, then don’t fill out survey.)
YES - 307
NO - 0
2. Do you consider yourself to be a Muslim first, an American first, or both equally?
MUSLIM FIRST - 214
AMERICAN FIRST - 4
BOTH EQUALLY - 86
UNDECIDED - 3
3. Is the American government at war with the religion of Islam?
YES - 208
NO - 79
UNDECIDED - 20
4. Can a good Muslim be a good American?
YES - 292
NO - 11
UNDECIDED - 4
In the case of the questions I find that they do not indicate a specific bias per se, however the selected pool of respondents certainly is not going to be representative of the overall American population. The respondents were a specifically targeted population, wtf did you expect for answers? The bias of the population is rather expected to be there given the perseptions of the populations. Had you taken the survey to say, Oral Roberts University at the base of his "tower of power" would you expect to get the saem freaking answers?
The whole point was to find out what AMERICAN Muslims think, although I have NO idea what would comprise a valid cross-section of U.S. Muslims (That being said, I think it can safely be assumed that most U.S. Muslims are former 'African Americans', and probably had some anti-US bias before converting--Ive been in a LOT of prisons, and the ever-growing Muslim population doesn't look much like Richie Cunningham:lol)
Muslims For A Safe America conducted a survey at the Islamic Society of North America’s 43rd Annual Convention in Chicago from September 1, 2006 to September 4, 2006.
307 Muslims who are American citizens participated in the survey at the Muslims For A Safe America booth at ISNA.
The purpose of the survey was to better understand the views of American Muslims on issues relating to Islam, Muslims, and American national security. It is important to let Muslims articulate their varied opinions on these issues in order to encourage dialogue within the Muslim community and with the rest of American society..
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They didn't really go out and look for the "average American Muslim" with this poll. The start of the thread kinda nixes that premise doesn't it.
At the annual convention of the Islamic Society of North America (a radical Islamic front group
One poll with a specifically targeted admitedly SKEWED population. Hello!!!!
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OK so are you (posters, in general)
Are you an American first, or a Christian first?
Answer carefully, now!
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Well, American since I'm not Christian. Now what?
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im a porn crazy perv before im american, then im christian, then some other stuff, then a guy with a pizza sauce stain on his pants, then im a negroe