Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Flayed1 on November 21, 2006, 11:26:00 AM
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I was just gonna post on our squad forum but I though others might get something out of this also.
Here's a pic to illistrate, the shaded green is what bish owned in MW at the time. At least from what I remember.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n259/Flaydone/squad-night.jpg)
We started off with a couple bomber groups coming off the main island in the SW to bomb FH's at A48. When they hit the radar circle the rest of us took off from A24 NOE in YAK-9T's and LA-5's for deacking perposes, 110's for town and of course the goon.
Our bomber formations hit the hangers just befor we got there with the main assult force and as we were coming in the bombers put their remaining bombs on the town. Next the YAK's and LA-5's quickly deacked the town and started on the field (Thats where I got shot down Friggin field ack:furious :p ) some guys managed to take down an IL2 or two while the 110's blasted town and got the goon in.
After that the Knights where then aware some what of where we were.
The next assult was just about the same on A45 minus the bombers and there was a little more resistance. After we took that then the fun began along with the problems that is actually the point of this post.
Once we had A45 the Knights were on the defence and that in itself made the attack harder but the main problem was one of unit coheasion. We had some guys that wanted to take V46 and others that wanted to jump right on A47 with the idea that taking the air base would make taking the Vbase easier and yet others that were defending A45 from GV assault but that was something that had to be done so no problem there.. Either way would have worked in my opinion but once your force devides it makes things much more difficult.
I went to V46 to see how thing were going and it didn't look real great. Several flacks and a tiger or 2 rolling around the field with sups siting here an there not to meantion 1 VH and ack were still up. :)
I figured that the remaining VH was first priority because the other two had already started on the 15 min count down. I did repeated dives droping bombs from my A6M5 along with other fighters that had ord and finally the VH went down. After this some started nailing ack and I started straifing the sups so the GV's couldn't repair. After the 3rd pass an osty got a good hit right into my canopy. Blood went every where then BOOM I was dead Osty.
I came back in my zeke and droped my 2 50kg bombs on an osty and killed it JB42, swung around and dumped my 250kg on 1 of 2 tigers that were rolling to the spawn to no effect. Meanwile over the radio we hear the goon driver is having problems with a fighter and is shot down shortly after.
Thing were looking bleak, two of the VH's had stoped smoking and were just about to pop and we thought we didn't have any troops in the area. The only up side was that the guys that had gone on to hit A47 were keeping the fighters busy. When what do I see as I fly over the base but that sneaky bastage Goaly has a goon parked right in front of the map room :noid
We take the base and almost have a handle on 47 when the CV from P55 shows up and blows that whole attempt out of the water LOL :O
After a bit of furballing we finally get rid of that pesky CV but other problems develop. We want to keep pushing on A47 but knights are trying to take back V46 at the same time. I was up in bombers to kill FH's at 47 but right befor I got there someone else hit them so I shifted to the VH and nailed it.
With 6 bombs remaining I turn around to go after after the troops to make taking V46 back much harder, I look back and find a flight of A20's (BOSTONS) on my 6 LOL. I pretend to ignore them and let them zoom in on me then blew them all up in about 3 seconds flat :rofl . I continue on and bomb 1 of the 2 barracks that were up but didn't see the other one because of the smoke from a burning ammo bunker. By the time I get turned around AGAIN:rolleyes: someone had straifed it down. So I turn my 24's around again and just start for home when an F4U-1 starts pinging me. I mow off a wing and he go's spinning into the ground then a 190 A5 comes in after me, hitting one of my outer fuel tanks, engine oil on my right drone and my tail gunner... Poor Bob never saw it coming. :) I blow up the 190 in short order and rtb with my 5 kills.
The night prety much went in this cycle at 47 and 46 we even had a spit mission go in to 47 clearing it out and porking ord. All was good but that CV was back again..... Then one of the barracks came back up I kill it but after I land or die, don't remember if I made it out, an ord bunker pops back up and they start bombing 46 again.
My thoughts on this is we just got to bogged down defending V46 and what neede to happen was a shift in tactics from trying to take A47 and instead just get a good solid pork run on it, Troops and ord all at once instead of the piece meal way it was done with an ord bunker or barracks poping up every few minuits. This would have freed up the guys defending V46 so we could have delt with the CV and smacked A47 in short order..
This stratagy would have also worked for V46 to some degree and let us concentrate on 47 a bit more but it still would have been a bit of a distraction.
Any way I hope you liked the story. :) And if you have other thoughts on how you would have done things differently feel free to post.
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Thx for the AAR.... they are always welcome IMO.
This is definatly a different type of gameplay than I follow. However, I like the fact that you were fighting for your taken bases and not just rolling undefended bases. At least that is how it sounds to me.
Salute
Dave
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porkin troops at vbases renders them almost useless.. could have then focused more on the air base and the cv.. but nice aar though sounds like u guys had alot of fun..
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Originally posted by TW9
sounds like u guys had alot of fun..
We always do :D
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Big
to BiPolar in that osti of his. I have never been hit so often from so far and at such strange angles by anyone else. .
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Interesting AAR, and interesting question.
If you are having a squad night with the goal of capture, have you considered starting off with a strat porking mission?
This idea actually moves from the tactical -- what some guys call "strategy" is way too local to be anything but tactics -- but the idea can have a huge impact on what happens the rest of the night for you.
Any troops that go down are only down for 15 minutes at default. (Hangars are down 15 minutes regardless of resupply BTW...but you knew that) If you hit the strat system intelligently, you can get enemy troops/supplies OFF the restoration treadmill so you can direct your resources towards more captures or more concentrated defense.
What about trying this? --
1) First mission, full squad present. Send heavy buffs against the Troop facility and the Strat City. Goal is to get both below 10% if possible. That combination means that if you kill a base's troops, they will stay down a LONG time -- maybe hours. City damage means the troop training strat stays down longer, so its important if you dont want to have to go back to strat in the same night.
2) Then go for your first base, leaving its troops up. If you see a train/barge coming, DESTROY IT -- doing so extends down time for everything.
3) After capture, use a mission to pork surrounding base troops. Now defense gets easier, because the enemy has to work really hard to get troops in. That leaves more resources for further attacks....and so on.
The effect of supply trains on towns isnt really clear from the help files. But, I think it works like this:
Per the help file, town buildings stay down for FORTY FIVE minutes.
Per the help file, supply trains/barges reduce the down time for base strats by THIRTY MINUTES per train.
Trains come every TEN minutes.
Combining the two -- if you allow one train through, you get town buildings down for what we actually see, fifteen minutes.
Many trash the strat system in AH. Truth is, I dont think most people understand how it works, and those who do understand it dont use it. It'd be great if groups started to play with the possibilities.
So, BOPS -- go for it, and let us know how it works!
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you know why they don't do that in the EW don't cha?
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Yeah, what passes for bombers in EW have trouble taking down an outhouse, much less a town. (Unless you're willing to spend some hoarded bomber perks on Lancs)
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Nice AAR.
MW came into its own last night! Hopefully it stays populated.
Buffs on FH, VH and town, with Fighters for gvs, defenders and cleanup is pretty much unstoppable. It is nice to see vs. the usual NOE to undefended bases that gets slaughtered.
BOPS
BUT ... it was ROOKS you were tangling with, not KNIGHTS.
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Because 45 is so close to 46, they would assume that the next valid attack would have been 46.
You could have sent a couple guys to 46 to feint an attack, and then launch your bombers and NOE attackers from 48 to 47 just like you did from 24 to 48.
The couple of guys attacking 46 would cause 47 to blink, which would not lead them to believe that they were being attacked from another flank (bombers and NOE).
The bombers and NOE could have porked 47s ord and troops. Once that was accomplished, you could have made a concentrated effort on 46 and taken it.
Once 46 was taken, they have no way to get it back. Once 46 became operational (re-supplied ?), you could have then rolled a coordinated GV / Air Attack on 47 and sent your bombers to wack 47 again if needed and then fly north and take out the CV.
Once the CV becomes no threat, you could continue to press 47 with GVs and Air until you took it.
Not saying this is the best way ... but it could have been one possibility ... using a united squad front with a couple of squad guys taking attention away from the real power.
The splitting of your forces, as you pointed out, was your problem ... it worked nicely for the capture of 48 and 45 ... you should have stuck with it.
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BiPolar is damn good in a ostie for sure .
I was with him at a vbase , he gets all the kills hehe .
matie
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WOW guys I'm impressed, I never thought I would get so many positive responses to this thread thank you. It's nice to see people actually thinking about something rather than argue over things you can't change. :)
to you all.
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Originally posted by storch
you know why they don't do that in the EW don't cha?
It's bekause were so skared of storch....he always chutes us down :cry
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Originally posted by storch
you know why they don't do that in the EW don't cha?
There was nobody in EW to fight. So if we had held squad night in EW we would have been called milk runners.. Find a way to get enough people into EW and I would love to play in there. I hope that MW stays populated and EW will follow at some point.
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I'm sorry...... AAR?
problem with acronyms here
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After action report.
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AAR's are cool, shame they dont get posted more often here... hehe :D
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Because 45 is so close to 46, they would assume that the next valid attack would have been 46.
You could have sent a couple guys to 46 to feint an attack, and then launch your bombers and NOE attackers from 48 to 47 just like you did from 24 to 48.
we did something like that in EW a few weeks ago.. knits was overun with rooks i believe, but a few guys (err 10 of the WHOLE knit population of 12) all logged onto same channel and set up multiple attacks.
(http://www.ajwebb.eclipse.co.uk/Pictures/Aces/new/knits.jpg)
we came up with the idea that 8 guys would head to A55 to deack (old days ack), kill VH, and "look" like the real attack. some of the guys then on purpose went north to make V68 flash but also to fly a northern cap from anyone coming from that direction.
the "main" attack of two hurr2cs and 2 goons (me a goon) flew NOE to V68. I kept discoing but we did end up capturing V68. Also due to the "pre capture" work at A55 already being done, we rolled GV's in and took A55 fast too. It was great to see a whole country working towards one goal.
Yes, V68 was a undefend base and we was "milkrunning" but it opend the frontline, and gave us the GV spawns we really needed to get OUR bases (and HQ) back.
And because Bish and rooks was fighting the each other to try and get the most bases before final push, our country lived :D
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Originally posted by Flayed1
WOW guys I'm impressed, I never thought I would get so many positive responses to this thread thank you. It's nice to see people actually thinking about something rather than argue over things you can't change. :)
to you all.
Dweeeb! hee hee JK back when I was #'s dweeb we'd have half the country eating up virtual land. pork troops at vbase and hit airbase hard. That's the ticket!
:aok
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Originally posted by Flayed1
There was nobody in EW to fight. So if we had held squad night in EW we would have been called milk runners.. Find a way to get enough people into EW and I would love to play in there. I hope that MW stays populated and EW will follow at some point.
I thought it was because the new setup makes it harder given the cartoon inventory in the EW.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Many trash the strat system in AH. Truth is, I dont think most people understand how it works, and those who do understand it dont use it. It'd be great if groups started to play with the possibilities.
So, BOPS -- go for it, and let us know how it works!
i think the issue is everyone seems to think 1 person should be able to make the difference... and i guess thats cos they play counterstrike where one guy with a AWP can take out the whole team while sniping from miles away....... boy what fun look how cool i am..... anyway.....
trains (and other supply lines) can be hit, and yes, you are right stopping the resupply trains means town stays down 45minutes.
i was bored the other day and was bombing rook cities and then AAA or Ord factory all day.... however once i got bored of that, i saw there radar factory, 50miles without our lands... and it was at 23%. I upped a mossie, and just kept pounding the trains for almost an hour. It never went up 1%. as soon as i stopped and the first train got there, it started poping up.
i didnt do this to have "fun" though.... i just wanted to test the results fully. mainly because, i would like to get my squad into this sort of operation. we mainly fly B17s (303rd) and mainly hit AAA (i hit cities during the day before squad gets in). However i would like us to join deep penitration raids on JUST those trains.... take out a few trains, and fight our way out.... fun fun fun and also stops resupply.
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Yeah, to get the strat system hurting in any meaningful way you need to get a group involved.
It would be way cool to get a group started with true strat efforts. Once people saw what strats could do, they might actually try to defend the strat system (although as HT said elsewhere, defense is usually lots less exciting than offense). Who knows.... maybe we could start to see the AH equivalent of the strategic bombing campaign of WW2.
BTW, it has all been done before, and on a large map to boot. A few months before I started AH, someone spent weeks organizing among the Rook squads. They put together a combined maximum effort, the Rook Joint Operation (RJO) that started with a 100% porking of the entire strat system (on a large map) for both Bish and Nits, They then systematically assigned bases to squads, and kept a constant pressure across both fronts to take bases pretty much at will. I heard that HT actually called the organizer to talk about the night...it was the first and only time that the entire strat system was down!
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Originally posted by Overlag
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trains (and other supply lines) can be hit, and yes, you are right stopping the resupply trains means town stays down 45minutes.
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Why not add a train mashalling yard in each zone that could be hit to slow the rate of trains/trucks coming out. Might add another level to the strat system that is able to be interdicted...
Just a thought anyway, would be cool to do low alt penetration missions like all those gun cam movies you see of the AC straffing the trains/trucks.
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Originally posted by zorstorer
Why not add a train mashalling yard in each zone that could be hit to slow the rate of trains/trucks coming out. Might add another level to the strat system that is able to be interdicted...
Just a thought anyway, would be cool to do low alt penetration missions like all those gun cam movies you see of the AC straffing the trains/trucks.
that's why people mention they want more strat.... things like this would be cool, but whole maps would need redesign to add things this way.
I always thought the HQ should be something different... maybe a city, and all strat in the same area. Within this, a Train Mashalling yard that supplys ALL the fields. etc. something along that lines means bombers have to fly over large expanse of enemy airspace, and has to be organised to make the diffence. 3-4 bases around this "HQ" would be uncaptureable, and there for will be the "final" bases on reset.
Right now we have strat spread out (except SFMA which is my fave map because of this), which means the strat is too easy to hit, by just capturing 2 or 3 bases its already within your territory... it just doesnt make sence..
Originally posted by Simaril
Yeah, to get the strat system hurting in any meaningful way you need to get a group involved.
It would be way cool to get a group started with true strat efforts. Once people saw what strats could do, they might actually try to defend the strat system (although as HT said elsewhere, defense is usually lots less exciting than offense). Who knows.... maybe we could start to see the AH equivalent of the strategic bombing campaign of WW2.
BTW, it has all been done before, and on a large map to boot. A few months before I started AH, someone spent weeks organizing among the Rook squads. They put together a combined maximum effort, the Rook Joint Operation (RJO) that started with a 100% porking of the entire strat system (on a large map) for both Bish and Nits, They then systematically assigned bases to squads, and kept a constant pressure across both fronts to take bases pretty much at will. I heard that HT actually called the organizer to talk about the night...it was the first and only time that the entire strat system was down!
aye, i remember this. And fester once came over to knits to do the same against rooks.... he used the new demand of bombers (the b24 just came out so everyone wanted to fly it) and crushed rooks strat to the point they all left...
City down to 0%, troops down to 0%, Hit hq and destroy all troops within 100miles.... rooks had no dar for like 2hours. boy the whines was bad... but to be fair, it took us 3hours to get to that point of being in the position to hurt them that bad..... why didnt they see it coming?
I do like anti buff runs, but the issue is these ALSO need to be organised if the buffs are organised. you need 190a8's or 110's up, with 109 escorts for the p51's.... but its a lot easier to get attackers organised and using team work. defenders just up in dribs and drabs. This often mean they are totally utterly decimated by whatever attacking force it it... be it a bomber raid, or a base capture raid.....
Defenders rarely have the organisation to make the difference against a organised attack.
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Tonight 6 of us uped off the south island in MW on uterus or what ever the name is :) and flew B-17's allllllll the way to rook strat in the NE corner of the map reaching 28K :D
Rook strat down to.....
City-61%
Ammo-69%
Radar-67%
Troops-31%
AAA-72%
we only lost a few planes and were even complimented on our formation :)
Took a long time though.
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Originally posted by Overlag
that's why people mention they want more strat.... things like this would be cool, but whole maps would need redesign to add things this way.
.......snip.......[/i]
In fairness, its hard to argue for more strat when we arent using what is there already. I mean, why take the time and invest the money to make marshalling yards when no one bothers to kill the trains now?
How much easier would captures be if somebody ran the train track to kill the train before it got in?
I would bet under 1% of people have ANY idea that they can keep buildings down by killing that supply route. How often have you heard, "hurry hurry, get the goon in....buildings are going to pop soon!" -- but have you EVER seen a team interdict the trains/barges?
BTW..does anyone know if killing the bridges on the train route actually stops them from passing? Or, does killing the engine stop the cars from moving?
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hey flayed next time you guys want to do something like that, advertise it on here like filth does occassionally. JG54 will up and make it realistic for you. we'll see how many make it up and back then. :D
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Originally posted by zorstorer
Why not add a train mashalling yard in each zone that could be hit to slow the rate of trains/trucks coming out. Might add another level to the strat system that is able to be interdicted...
Just a thought anyway, would be cool to do low alt penetration missions like all those gun cam movies you see of the AC straffing the trains/trucks.
Already was an element of the game, once upon a time. People could/would hunt trains and trucks. Then these were changed to be hard to kill (especially trains) and nobody messed with them too much anymore.
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Originally posted by Simaril
I would bet under 1% of people have ANY idea that they can keep buildings down by killing that supply route. How often have you heard, "hurry hurry, get the goon in....buildings are going to pop soon!" -- but have you EVER seen a team interdict the trains/barges?
BTW..does anyone know if killing the bridges on the train route actually stops them from passing? Or, does killing the engine stop the cars from moving?
I think the issue here is very few people know how to play the game.... thats why you see:
1: P51's/La7s running away from fights,.
2: hordes of said planes.
3: Lancasters dropping bombs at 500AGL and then going WTF my bombs didnt go off.
4: dont see many people using the strat system to its fullest.
oh and its always best to kill the supply truck itself...
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I think the issue here is very few people know how to play the game....
No truer words could be spoken.
I like the idea that a large squad like the BOPs are not only taking on these types missions ... but also telling people about it ... this will help to start an education process of how to play the whole game ... not just smash town after town after town.
I would like to think that the latest changes (uber-ack and mucho troops) has been the impetus for the BOPs to take this tact on playing the game. If some other larger squads, that don't fly for the same country as the BOPs, were to do the same ... the arenas would be buzzin' with all sorts of activity outside of smash/defend base after base after base ... and that would be a good thing.
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Agree 100%, Slap
Makes me wonder if the real key to getting great gameplay for both A2A guys and the capture folks is simple -- everybody just do a Good Job at what they like, and it all works?
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Originally posted by Simaril
Agree 100%, Slap
Makes me wonder if the real key to getting great gameplay for both A2A guys and the capture folks is simple -- everybody just do a Good Job at what they like, and it all works?
Eh, for some. For some (many?) others, the path of least resistance is always going to be the most popular. When you can find a way to encourage them to participate fully as others do... then you're on to something, IMO. I only wish I knew a foolproof way to do that.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Eh, for some. For some (many?) others, the path of least resistance is always going to be the most popular. When you can find a way to encourage them to participate fully as others do... then you're on to something, IMO. I only wish I knew a foolproof way to do that.
Maybe CT will have that effect on some?
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Originally posted by zorstorer
Maybe CT will have that effect on some?
I dunno about that. I get the impression that CT isn't going to really cater to many current players. I'm sure some will enjoy it immensely, but the masses... doubtful, IMO. Granted, that's going only from info we've been given that is somewhat dated, but anyway, that's the feeling I get.
I'm betting that the only thing that will sway most players to change the way they play, is a dramatic alteration of the current environment.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I think the issue here is very few people know how to play the game....
No truer words could be spoken.
I like the idea that a large squad like the BOPs are not only taking on these types missions ... but also telling people about it ... this will help to start an education process of how to play the whole game ... not just smash town after town after town.
I would like to think that the latest changes (uber-ack and mucho troops) has been the impetus for the BOPs to take this tact on playing the game. If some other larger squads, that don't fly for the same country as the BOPs, were to do the same ... the arenas would be buzzin' with all sorts of activity outside of smash/defend base after base after base ... and that would be a good thing.
well said sir... maybe more squads should post AAR's and also help explain to others how to play the game.
the only way i learnt WWIIOL was by reading AAR's for almost a YEAR before i joined the game. Without it i wouldnt have no which way to drive, or how to drive etc.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Interesting AAR, and interesting question.
If you are having a squad night with the goal of capture, have you considered starting off with a strat porking mission?
This idea actually moves from the tactical -- what some guys call "strategy" is way too local to be anything but tactics -- but the idea can have a huge impact on what happens the rest of the night for you.
Any troops that go down are only down for 15 minutes at default. (Hangars are down 15 minutes regardless of resupply BTW...but you knew that) If you hit the strat system intelligently, you can get enemy troops/supplies OFF the restoration treadmill so you can direct your resources towards more captures or more concentrated defense.
What about trying this? --
1) First mission, full squad present. Send heavy buffs against the Troop facility and the Strat City. Goal is to get both below 10% if possible. That combination means that if you kill a base's troops, they will stay down a LONG time -- maybe hours. City damage means the troop training strat stays down longer, so its important if you dont want to have to go back to strat in the same night.
2) Then go for your first base, leaving its troops up. If you see a train/barge coming, DESTROY IT -- doing so extends down time for everything.
3) After capture, use a mission to pork surrounding base troops. Now defense gets easier, because the enemy has to work really hard to get troops in. That leaves more resources for further attacks....and so on.
The effect of supply trains on towns isnt really clear from the help files. But, I think it works like this:
Per the help file, town buildings stay down for FORTY FIVE minutes.
Per the help file, supply trains/barges reduce the down time for base strats by THIRTY MINUTES per train.
Trains come every TEN minutes.
Combining the two -- if you allow one train through, you get town buildings down for what we actually see, fifteen minutes.
Many trash the strat system in AH. Truth is, I dont think most people understand how it works, and those who do understand it dont use it. It'd be great if groups started to play with the possibilities.
So, BOPS -- go for it, and let us know how it works!
Question about the strats, if you kill the city and troop factory, then you kill the barracks at an nme field, then you capture that nme field. Now you have a field that the troops will not generate on for several hours???
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Field changes hands so now your own troop strat takes over. The field is no longer owned by the team with the porked strat.
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Originally posted by Shuffler
Field changes hands so now your own troop strat takes over. The field is no longer owned by the team with the porked strat.
The trains and trucks leaving the strats, where do they go?
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Originally posted by Traveler
Question about the strats, if you kill the city and troop factory, then you kill the barracks at an nme field, then you capture that nme field. Now you have a field that the troops will not generate on for several hours???
airfields outside your "starting" fields take ALOT longer to rebuild.. not sure how long but they arnt really supplied by anything.
ie if you left click on them and click status, the strat area will be blank.
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If I understood the zone functions correctly, and they haven't changed, once you take control of a base that is a part of a zone controlled by an enemy, it is no longer served by the resupply system, and would require supplies to be flown in by your country. I may be incorrect, but this is the way I believe it works (or at least worked this way in the past. Some maps seem to have only 1 zone, so this may no longer apply).
Also, if this hasn't changed as well, you can blow up either the engine or one of the first cars in the train, and the rest will sit there until the next resupply train leaves that depot. With regards to the truck convoys, there used to be some sort of variable in those as well. If the strat was at, say, 50%, the trucks would only provide half the rebuilding effect that they would if the strat was at 100%, with the lead trucks pretty much always having supplies, and the trailing trucks being the ones that are pretty much null when the strat is damaged. I'm really not current on any of this stuff, preferring to put ordnance on people, since strats don't whine. ;)
I think that's all in the help files, but I can't say with any certainty whether or not this information is still accurate.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
If I understood the zone functions correctly, and they haven't changed, once you take control of a base that is a part of a zone controlled by an enemy, it is no longer served by the resupply system, and would require supplies to be flown in by your country.
Exactly. This is why zone bases are so important and why fights for them are usually quite fierce.
Unfortunately, most (maybe all?) the smaller maps only have one zone centered on the HQ -- so the concentrated fights for an important base are not as necessary anymore. All bases are more or less the same now.
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Greetings,
This is why the zone bases are so important. When they are captured, the Strats switch sides.
Edit - Oops, just noticed I got beat to the observation!
:noid
Regards,
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I've been playing almost a year, but I'm mostly clueless as to the strat side of the game... (where are the targets, the effects of taking them out, etc.).
Is this information (the game play part of it... not the technical descriptions in the help) explained anywhere?
Someone said it previously... most newer players (1 year or less) probably don't even know that this side of AH exists.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
I think the issue here is very few people know how to play the game....
No truer words could be spoken.
I like the idea that a large squad like the BOPs are not only taking on these types missions ... but also telling people about it ... this will help to start an education process of how to play the whole game ... not just smash town after town after town.
I would like to think that the latest changes (uber-ack and mucho troops) has been the impetus for the BOPs to take this tact on playing the game. If some other larger squads, that don't fly for the same country as the BOPs, were to do the same ... the arenas would be buzzin' with all sorts of activity outside of smash/defend base after base after base ... and that would be a good thing.
Would be a lil more laudible had they broadcasted this BEFORE squad night started--at start time, they were whacking undefended bases with 25+ guys (by the time they took v46, 10+ guys were starting to slow them up), as all the Rooks were furballing at 22-- a squad can instantly gather everyone and start defending a base that is being run over, mere country-mates take a lot longer, sorta like making the Queen Mary do a U-turn. A truly impressive squad mission would be to pick the ONE base where all the Rooks were, and take it-- 25+ Bops + the hangers-on would make a darn good battle:aok
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Originally posted by bj229r
Would be a lil more laudible had they broadcasted this BEFORE squad night started--at start time, they were whacking undefended bases with 25+ guys (by the time they took v46, 10+ guys were starting to slow them up), as all the Rooks were furballing at 22-- a squad can instantly gather everyone and start defending a base that is being run over, mere country-mates take a lot longer, sorta like making the Queen Mary do a U-turn. A truly impressive squad mission would be to pick the ONE base where all the Rooks were, and take it-- 25+ Bops + the hangers-on would make a darn good battle:aok
see this:
Originally posted by Overlag
Defenders rarely have the organisation to make the difference against a organised attack.
and to be fair, thats the reason we have so much ack... because people dont like defending.
(not an aint ack whine, im fine with ack as it is)
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Originally posted by calan
I've been playing almost a year, but I'm mostly clueless as to the strat side of the game... (where are the targets, the effects of taking them out, etc.).
Is this information (the game play part of it... not the technical descriptions in the help) explained anywhere?
Someone said it previously... most newer players (1 year or less) probably don't even know that this side of AH exists.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/ahhelp/map.html#ss
This is under the Support/Help menus on the homepage. It also appears in the downloadable Help files, but I'm not sure where they're linked anymore.
Some of the info may be outdated, but the basics are unchanged, AFAIK.
And I see I was incorrect on a few things, but anyway, it's explained better (and accurately :) ) in the link.
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I'd seen that before hub, but nothing as far as how to actually "play" the strat angle of the game.
Where are these targets located on the maps? What Icons? When and how should they be attacked? etc etc
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Simplistic example. Kill the city, the factories in that zone rebuild much slower. If you hit them next, the strats on the fields in that zone rebuild much slower as well. Hit them next. Now, in this particular zone, the city and factories are all at 0%. Convoys, barges, and or trains in this zone are now having 0 effect. Plus, the guys blowing all this **** up are going to run out of targets, and they'll probably go after your convoys next, and start hunting resupply goons.
Without the convoys, and with no barracks intact on any fields in that area, there are no troops, no vehicle supplies, no field supplies... no way to restore the strats on the field without flying them in from the next zone. Long flights in a C47 through an active area rife with enemies (in situations like this, normally sadists like myself, letting the goon get close enough to his destination to see it, then shooting him down).
End result for the red people- if you're trying to run some sort of attack out of this zone, you're SOL. You have planes, guns, and gas, but no troops, no radar at the fields, no bombs, no rockets, can't see much, and can't resupply anything to bring it back up faster. Your fields have been porked completely, and you might as well go make a sandwich, or get used to furballing, because the offensive part of the war, for you, is over for 2 hours.
On your clipboard map, rightclick, and select Legend from the pulldown menu. This will show you all the symbols of the various components and factories, and then it's just a matter of spotting them on the map. They vary somewhat, but tend to be evenly distributed across most maps, I think. I haven't attacked a factory in ages, because the choo choo of doom doesn't like me.
As to timing and whatnot, I suppose it depends more on what you're trying to accomplish. A complete and total porking takes quite a bit of coordination, and a lot of ord on each target. Unless you've got a helluva lotta people, you're playing whackamole. Get one target down, and another comes back up, etc etc.
That help any?
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Originally posted by calan
I've been playing almost a year, but I'm mostly clueless as to the strat side of the game... (where are the targets, the effects of taking them out, etc.).
Is this information (the game play part of it... not the technical descriptions in the help) explained anywhere?
Someone said it previously... most newer players (1 year or less) probably don't even know that this side of AH exists.
I have been here since '01
I don't know that side of AH exists.
Dave
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Originally posted by calan
I've been playing almost a year, but I'm mostly clueless as to the strat side of the game... (where are the targets, the effects of taking them out, etc.).
Is this information (the game play part of it... not the technical descriptions in the help) explained anywhere?
Someone said it previously... most newer players (1 year or less) probably don't even know that this side of AH exists.
_____________________________ _______________
Overall it is thus:
Capitol - Strat - Bases
This is all you need know.
Captitol supplies - Strat (factories) which then supplies - Bases
Step 1: Hit Capitol.
Step 2: Hit Factory
Step 3: Hit Fuel/Ammo/or Troops on individual bases = they stay dead longer. These base objects with undamaged resupply (see step 1and step 2 above) will rebuild in 15 minutes.
BONUS: IF you have done Step 1 and Step 2 these things stay dead a heck of a lot longer, though I have never done the math - it is hours.
_____________________________ _______________
If your eyes have not yet glassed over read the HTC file again with this knowledge and a light bulb might go on.
HQ is confusing but this affects it the same way. Radar on bases is not the same thing as HQ, but you have figured that out by not.
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Originally posted by Simaril
In fairness, its hard to argue for more strat when we arent using what is there already. I mean, why take the time and invest the money to make marshalling yards when no one bothers to kill the trains now?
How much easier would captures be if somebody ran the train track to kill the train before it got in?
I would bet under 1% of people have ANY idea that they can keep buildings down by killing that supply route. How often have you heard, "hurry hurry, get the goon in....buildings are going to pop soon!" -- but have you EVER seen a team interdict the trains/barges?
BTW..does anyone know if killing the bridges on the train route actually stops them from passing? Or, does killing the engine stop the cars from moving?
That's because you can't.
And all in all the downtime of town buildings is the least of the problems in an attempt to capture a field.
Helpfiles - Strategic targets
Target: Town building
Destroy with: 1 250 lb
Downtime: 45 mins
Effect: Kills town building to allow for field capture
Supplier: N/A
Can be resupplied: No
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I am very happy the way this thread is going a huge
to the folks willing to discuss without the usual bashing.
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Originally posted by Zwerg
That's because you can't.
And all in all the downtime of town buildings is the least of the problems in an attempt to capture a field.
Helpfiles - Strategic targets
Target: Town building
Destroy with: 1 250 lb
Downtime: 45 mins
Effect: Kills town building to allow for field capture
Supplier: N/A
Can be resupplied: No
Try again:
Also from the help files:
Damaged field and city objects can be rebuilt with the successful delivery of supplies. Conceptually, the objects are being resupplied but visually they are being rebuilt. This is done by reducing the downtime by 30 minutes depending on how much of the supplies reach the destination. If only half of the supplies reach the destination, the downtime is decreased by 15 minutes.
The table you're looking at refers to using player delivered supplies to change downtimes. The computer driven supplies (barges, trains, and truck convoys) work independently of that.
Also, think about it -- when you do a capture, the town buildings stay down 15 minutes, not 45. Ask around if you're not sure....I've never seen, nor heard, of buildings staying down for 3/4 hour. The 15 minutes we actually see is the mathematical outcome of the 45 minute default, reduced by one delivery of the every 10 minute automatic supply system.
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Originally posted by Flayed1
Tonight 6 of us uped off the south island in MW on uterus or what ever the name is :) and flew B-17's allllllll the way to rook strat in the NE corner of the map reaching 28K :D
Rook strat down to.....
City-61%
Ammo-69%
Radar-67%
Troops-31%
AAA-72%
we only lost a few planes and were even complimented on our formation :)
Took a long time though.
Did your 6 planes hit all those centers, or were some down already?
If you hit all those strats, here's something to think about. There is a much greater benefit to essentially completely wiping out the city and one other strat factory, than there is to denting a whole bunch of them. Thats because (according to help files) there is a definite 50% threshold for reducing supply effects, and an implied steeply curved increment in effects. (Someplace in there I read that when the source is damaged 50%, only one of the 6 car supply delivery carries actual supplies...)
What that means is that a 69% damaged city will deliver supplies to its troop factory every 10 minutes, and that each train will reduce the troop factory down time by, say, 15 minutes (instead of the usual 30). The down times start at 3 hours, so normal function will be restored in about 1.25 hours. (That's 7 deliveries for 1.75 hours plus the passage of 1.25 hours real time.)
On the other hand, if you cut the supply far enough it would be the baseline 3 hours till troop training is back up, or it would require an active resupply effort like folks do for the HQ.
The city is KEY, because its damage multiplies effects on everything else (including the HQ). Once you've hit the city, your damage to troops training strat has much more meaning...with the same math we talked about now being applied to troop downtimes on individual fields. And again, you see MUCH more real life effect by smashing the strat than you do by denting it.
SO I'd suggest you run those 6 man sorties against only troop factory and the city. 3 buffs per strat ought to leave them more or less levelled, and that will make any porking you do FAR more effective for the rest of the night.
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Originally posted by zorstorer
I am very happy the way this thread is going a huge to the folks willing to discuss without the usual bashing.
I second that :aok
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Originally posted by zorstorer
I am very happy the way this thread is going a huge to the folks willing to discuss without the usual bashing.
I really dont think that most A2A guys have anything against capturing bases -- I know I don't!
Lameness is a pain -- whether its stupidity (taking down hangars without any other plan, then complaining that no one tried to take the base); griefing; or deliberate milk running (avioding any fight at all, and only attacking the undefended).
But if the strat guys are willing to intelligently fight, there's no reason our interests cant intersect with good results!
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Whenever I post a bomber/attack mission, there has to be a long term effect or goal behind it, and it isn't for ruining good furballs. I like those kinds of missions to make sense to people before I post them, and if someone comes up with a better idea, which has often been the case, I adjust the mission parameters to accomidate.
P.S.
to those that participated in and fought against last night's unusual Ki67 bomber/Ki84 escort run. I was very suprised at the high turnout for that mission. Great job! :cool:
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Originally posted by Simaril
Did your 6 planes hit all those centers, or were some down already?
If you hit all those strats, here's something to think about. There is a much greater benefit to essentially completely wiping out the city and one other strat factory, than there is to denting a whole bunch of them. Thats because (according to help files) there is a definite 50% threshold for reducing supply effects, and an implied steeply curved increment in effects. (Someplace in there I read that when the source is damaged 50%, only one of the 6 car supply delivery carries actual supplies...)
What that means is that a 69% damaged city will deliver supplies to its troop factory every 10 minutes, and that each train will reduce the troop factory down time by, say, 15 minutes (instead of the usual 30). The down times start at 3 hours, so normal function will be restored in about 1.25 hours. (That's 7 deliveries for 1.75 hours plus the passage of 1.25 hours real time.)
On the other hand, if you cut the supply far enough it would be the baseline 3 hours till troop training is back up, or it would require an active resupply effort like folks do for the HQ.
The city is KEY, because its damage multiplies effects on everything else (including the HQ). Once you've hit the city, your damage to troops training strat has much more meaning...with the same math we talked about now being applied to troop downtimes on individual fields. And again, you see MUCH more real life effect by smashing the strat than you do by denting it.
SO I'd suggest you run those 6 man sorties against only troop factory and the city. 3 buffs per strat ought to leave them more or less levelled, and that will make any porking you do FAR more effective for the rest of the night.
Yes we hit all of it.. We had origanally intended just to hit city and troops but the plan morphed as we went along :) I do see your point though and hope HT responds to your thread on this subject.
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Originally posted by Simaril
Try again:
"Damaged field and city objects can be rebuilt"
Also, think about it -- when you do a capture, the town buildings stay down 15 minutes, not 45. Ask around if you're not sure....I've never seen, nor heard, of buildings staying down for 3/4 hour. The 15 minutes we actually see is the mathematical outcome of the 45 minute default, reduced by one delivery of the every 10 minute automatic supply system.
Town and City are not the same.
Concerning the downtime of town buildings: I never verified with a clock but I think they stay down much longer than 15 minutes.
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Yes town buildings stay down much longer than 15 min.. I think the 45 is correct. from all to base captures we've done.
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my way of doing bomb runs is to drop lets say 80% of my bombs on the city, then the final 20% on whatever factory i deem a good target.
the issue is team work though.
sure the 303rd can get the city below 50% and also the AAA factory in one go, but, the rest of the "country" dont really notice the effect so dont join in, cos they think its "just milkrunning useless toolsheds".
for instance if knits are getting hit hard, by lets say bish, we'd bomb cities then troops and/or Ord factories. But, you also need local jabo runs on the bases AFTER the factories are dead. But no one realises the opportunity to stall the front. Fights can still be had, but they wont have any troops to take bases...
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Excellent thread guys, and major points for civilized and intelligent discussion among those who have different goals.
By the way, HTC has always strongly encouraged good AAR postings, they love it. And this has been a good one.
All
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Originally posted by Overlag
my way of doing bomb runs is to drop lets say 80% of my bombs on the city, then the final 20% on whatever factory i deem a good target.
the issue is team work though.
sure the 303rd can get the city below 50% and also the AAA factory in one go, but, the rest of the "country" dont really notice the effect so dont join in, cos they think its "just milkrunning useless toolsheds".
for instance if knits are getting hit hard, by lets say bish, we'd bomb cities then troops and/or Ord factories. But, you also need local jabo runs on the bases AFTER the factories are dead. But no one realises the opportunity to stall the front. Fights can still be had, but they wont have any troops to take bases...
Yes Overlag we have the same problem even in the squad. Not so much that people in the squad think of it as milk running but the focus is so much on base capture that it seems there is a big blind spot on the rest of the strat play.
I'm hoping that this may change a bit because now it takes a small strike mission to pork a field effectivly. Just grab a few of your buds get into your favorite HOG or JUG or what ever and pork away while having fun with your friends. :)
And thanks for the positive comment Hilts. I just might have to clear out all the old films on my drive so I can record our squad night activities and add pictures to these AAR's, Heck maybe I should start doing this each week or at least if we have a good/interesting night :)