Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: Phil on November 22, 2006, 11:51:26 PM
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Need all the help you can give....
Pilot skills: average pilot. I know the basic rules before engaging(light on fuel, best speed for turning radius, flaps....)
Scenario: 15k alt with Spit9/50%fuel/fresh ammo
Head on with P38. With respect, I don't go for HO shots. Lets fight with skills and maneovers etc...
My speed well over 400+. His speed I assume would be about the same.
Zooooom we go side by side. I looked behind and I want to keep my nose level/ bit downward to gain distance/speed before making my next move....
Now I pay attention to his distance 800yds and then 1000yds now he's banking hard and I'm still going approx 450-475mph in the opposite direction....
Next thing I see is him closing in:confused: 900yds-800yds-700yds
You know the rest of the story:cry
How the hell can a plane go by me when I'm doin' 400+, proceed with a hard turn or stall turn and then catch up when I'm divin' doing 475+:furious
For you P38 vets, can you give me some advice on WHAT I SHOULDN'T DO when encountering "you". Don't mind losing, but don't like being too easy. I want to have a GOOD SCRAP :furious :rofl :cry
For those of you who shot me down, I'm not a quiter !
Give me time and I'LL BE BACK:rofl
Phil
OPP7755:aok
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Film your engagements and you will see what is happening.
1. He was probably faster than you at the merge.
2. He turned early.
3. You probably turned into him a bit to keep visual behind you.
4. He only turned ~ 90 degrees ( maybe less) after the merge and still had enough speed to run you down.
To counter with disengaging in mind, pass as close to him as possible and make a slight turn away from him always keeping your tail pointed at him.
BUT... you're in a Spit MAN! You should have been Early Turning him! For beginners... go vertical just before merge and then Pull, Point and shoot. It will work against all but the best.
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If you want real answers to this type of thing then you need to take and then post the film of the engaugement.
Without it everything is just speculation.
Dave
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man how steep of a dive did you do to be going 400+MPH in a spit? with that type of altitude you could of dove on his 6. But of course best bet is to film it.
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Wouldn't a P-38 compress at those speeds? Even if it somehow trimmed out enough to get some sort of control, the shaking of the airframe makes it really hard to set up any sort of gun solution...475 kts is mighty fast for a Lightning.
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Originally posted by SAS_KID
man how steep of a dive did you do to be going 400+MPH in a spit? with that type of altitude you could of dove on his 6. But of course best bet is to film it.
Don't think my thread mentions that I'm on his six.
Never dove on him:rolleyes:
On a level flight, Spit9 can easly make 400mph and with WEP putting the nose down a bit, you will make the 475+
Phil
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Sounds like the lead turn and/or merge is what got you. Like Nomak said, without film it's hard to say.
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Not much to add but here goes....
1) spit IX doesnt do 400mph level flight at any alt below 22k or so....speed at 15k is about 375 (about same as the P-38)
2) the 38 is heavier and will dive better (but also compresses much sooner)
So you werent going 400+ to start and you didnt get near 475 unless you were really diving and yes the 38's gonna catch you from that alt.
You also have a significant "discrepency" sp??.....if the two of you pass in the classic "planes level, guns cold" dueling merge {not the much more common dive for the dirt variety} then either you see him going up or out but he's out at 2 or 2.5 or 3. But you start him at 800 to 1000 and then say he's banking hard...not possible in a 38 going "475"....it wont even pull up at that speed. The elevator authority doesnt allow it....
My best guess is that you were going 380 or so (15k wep speed)....the con was actually higher and dove into the merge from vis range but was down to 15k or a bit less by the time you passed.....so he WAS going 450....he started to pull up from the under and by the time he got the speed down enough to gain full elevator authority your seeing him 1000 out. But he's in the vert pulling thru at 350-380 and now diving down on you from 18k....meanwhile your in a gentle dive. He'll run you down in no time....
I can tell you that your primary problem is pretty simple
I know the basic rules before engaging(light on fuel, best speed for turning radius, flaps....)
This is dead wrong...the basic rule for engaging is to be the aggressor. The single most famous quote in combat aviation sums it up "there are two types of planes, fighters and targets". Simply put you flew like a target (no disrepect intended)....
My speed well over 400+. His speed I assume would be about the same. Me thinks you assumed wrong...
I looked behind and I want to keep my nose level/ bit downward to gain distance/speed before making my next move....
Which would be what?....you just merged at high speed blew thru the merge and watched him crawl up your oscar. You simply dont have the time to process a "dog fight" in this manner....you can fly in the MA and engage particpate and contribute to "the cause" but you cant be remotely competative in a 1 on 1 or small group engagement.
Which brings us to the other "most famous" quote in air combat. "Better a mig on my 6 then no mig at all".... I'll gladly give a 38 (or any plane for that matter) my 6. The guy who kills me from 1.2 out on my 6 is gonna kill me regardless (probably 80% of the time) {in a true 1 on 1}.....
If you havent spent time in the TA I highly encourage you to. You have the right attitude and a little knowledge and polish will take you a long way. I fly knight under "snaphook". Anytime you see me up feel free to tag along as an observer....
BTW if you search back thru a few pages you'll find two clips....one is a 109F vs 38G clip...the other a p40 vs nikki clip.
The 38 clip shows a full fight vs the 109....a couple of defensive reverses including one at 800 or so. If you listen to the vox you'll hear me telling a squaddie i'm fine (which I was).
I reverse planes in the MA all the time at 1.2 800 or even less. Any of the trainers will happly work with you to first assess your actual skill level, then build your fundemental understanding of dogfighting and then work on moving you from the target catagory to where you want to be....
Thats when the fun starts....when a guy in a fighter meets a target....and finds out he's dealing with another fighter. :aok
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Heya Phil,
Yeah from your discription it seems you just didn't do the right thing on the merge. I'm not sure who tought you to go into a shallow dive after the merge. It's just about the worst thing you can do in anything short of say a P51 which can out run just about anything.
Swing by the training room for the rest of the week. Look around for Kwuest. I'm very rarely not in a P38. If you see me just mention the thread and I'll be happy to fly with you.
I'm no master or ace but I know enough of the basics to get you going. I am experienced enough though, and can get you more familiar with fighting against the P38.
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I'm learning' the hard way !
I feel like a BIG CANDY for you enemy vets outhere:cry
Slowly with time, hopefully I will recognize my WRONG MANEOVERS and will TRADE for good ones !:aok
Your advice is well taken...:aok
I've started FILMING my scenarios.
SNAPHOOK thanks for your input. You seemed to v'been around for a while and gained lots of experience. I will keep your ID on my list and will look you up in the future....
I like SMART flying and don't want to rush into fights. I like to ASSESS the situation before engaging. I like to process the plane/info.(pro and con of the EA) Then I take action.
I do pay attention of my speed, I try to fight on the way up, I use flaps when wanting my nose up to give me a "snapshot"
Sometimes my ATTACKING and DEFENCE tactics are well thaught BUT when I applie them, it doesn''t turn out like I planned...:huh
Like you said, TIME will POLISH my flying skills and hopefully will give me better results !
THANKS EVERYONE :D
Phil
OPP7755
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Just keep plugging away, by all means fly smart....but realize that almost all the "aces" preach aggression as the cornerstone of air combat. when in doubt attack even in the face of inferior odds or tactical position....
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Originally posted by humble
...not possible in a 38 going "475"....it wont even pull up at that speed. The elevator authority doesnt allow it....
You are incorrect.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Phil
Like you said, TIME will POLISH my flying skills and hopefully will give me better results !
THANKS EVERYONE :D
Phil
OPP7755
Get some quality time with a Trainer.... will make learning much more enjoyable and quicker then trial and error :).
trainers@hitechcreations.com
Schatzi
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Originally posted by Ack-Ack
You are incorrect.
ack-ack
I'm certainly not going to argue the 38 with you....
When I fly the 38 somewhere around 440 IAS (at my normal alts of 10-12k) it enters compression. Regardless of how much elevator I input it will hang in "the shudders" for a short time. Once the control surfaces unlock the plane has excellent evevator authority. At that point a 38 at high speed will scream thru a vertical reverse retaining alot of E.....which is what I was speculating about.
A good 38 driver will push the 38 right to that grey area then use the trim to fly the bird and pop it back out....I might have the speed of by a small margin at 15k but I dont think by much
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The main thing to remember no matter what you fly is to use your plane's strengths and exploit you opponent's weaknesses.
In level flight you and the P38 are close but you have a definite climb advantage and if the P38 pilot doesn't know how to properly use flaps a turn advantage.
If you intend to take up the fight with this guy then enter the merge off-set from head on so you can start your turn 6-800 out. If that doesn't put you on his six try out-turning him but be careful because if he knows how to fly that plane with flaps he'll be able to get some nice snapshots on you. Just feel it out. The next thing to try is to loop. If e-levels are close to start he won't be able to stay with you through multiple loops but again you have to be careful as he can make a really tight turn over the top with flaps. Finally, go into a spiraling climb watching him out your rear quarter. He won't be able to stay with this and as he loses e roll over on top of him to force him verticle and you'll get him hanging on his props. This last move works against a lot of planes with a Spit.
Hope this helps. Have fun.
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Hi Phil,
i see your thread got hijacked a bit. I highlighted some parts of your post and gave it numbers.
Originally posted by Phil
Need all the help you can give....
Pilot skills: average pilot. I know the basic rules before engaging(light on fuel, best speed for turning radius, flaps....)
Scenario: 15k alt with Spit9/50%fuel/fresh ammo
Head on with P38. With respect, I don't go for HO shots. Lets fight with skills and maneovers etc...
My speed well over 400+. His speed I assume(1) would be about the same.
Zooooom we go side by side(2). I looked behind and I want to
keep my nose level/ bit downward to gain distance/speed before making my next move(3)....
Now I pay attention to his distance 800yds and then 1000yds
now he's banking hard and I'm still going approx 450-475mph in the opposite direction....(4)
Next thing I see is him closing in:confused: 900yds-800yds-700yds
You know the rest of the story:cry
How the hell can a plane go by me when I'm doin' 400+, proceed with a hard turn or stall turn and then catch up when I'm divin' doing 475+(5):furious
For you P38 vets(6), can you give me some advice on WHAT I SHOULDN'T DO when encountering "you". Don't mind losing, but don't like being too easy. I want to have a GOOD SCRAP :furious :rofl :cry
For those of you who shot me down, I'm not a quiter !
Give me time and I'LL BE BACK:rofl
Phil
OPP7755:aok
(1) Filming helps. As others say your speed and his speed estimations are doubtful.
Often when i check a Situation on film it turns out the other plane had 5k alt advantage and dove down to my alt before i saw him, zooming in with over 500mph while i do 300mph cause i barely lvled and havent accelerated. Or i kept flying his direciton and he was slightly higher, pushing me in a climb and only having 250mph instead of my usual 350.
Checking http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php either both of you already had a good dive before the engagement or none of you had more than 370mph. The Dive/lineup/Climb/Slowdown is a verry important part of a 1v1 combat and since you dont say anything about it we can only speculate that he had the better tactic here already.
(2) Side by side? Probably his nose was facing up and yours down, if he was eaven flying straight at all and has not already started to turn around.
Usually in a merge you try to gain an advantage, this can be an angle helping you to turn to his tail, a separation that you already start using (and he doesnt) or facing nose up with the other guy facing nose down.
You can gain an angle when you start turning slightly before he does, including some other parameters. i.e. if you do it to early he can use it against you. Also it is favorable to pass him below or to the side, where taking advantage of the side pass is a not that easy. Might be in this case you want to pass directly and without angle to deny him that advantage.
I said nose - up on a direct pass is favorable? It puts you into a climb, decelerating, which makes it easier to turn around faster than he does while the other plane is in a dive, which either lets him loose a lot of energy turning around or time pulling the plane into a climb.
(3) As others mentioned that is worst you can do. Against any opponent it is necessary that you turn around and bring your guns on him, otherwise you give him time to sit straight behind you. If the other plane is slower you can get away and try again, but if hes faster he will catch you and be in a verry good position behind you. Better than that put your nose up and turn around. It doesnt matter if you do a "perfect" move or not, but turning around or eaven doing a climb will put you in a much better situation.
(4) Now he is probably far higher than you and turns around when slow, after that he dives down on you. That is a good strategy to fight & keep energy, fly straight when fast and to turn climb / turn / dive.
(5)When he climbs / turns / accelerates/ dives he gains energy, because when he climbes his engine pulls him, when he accelerate his engine pulls him. When you do a constant dive at above the speed that your aircraft does at the corresponding alts in lvl flight you LOOSE energy, since you have to use extra altitute to keep the speed you fly and eaven more to accelerate. So while he went climbing you startet loosing energy. Every second that you fly above the max speed of your plane you loose energy.
(6)Now, if you two were in the same plane he would have probably still got you. So while i am not an p38 pilot there is not much P38ing to that. Still, when you look at the charts the P38 gets a speed advantage below 15k and will catch up with you anyway.
Overall you dont have the time to plan and the plan usually changes every moment, so whatever plan you do it will be obsolete if it doesnt (A) Improoves your position imidiatly (B)kills the other guy shortly. I think spit 9 against P38 is a good match especially at 15k, i would try to turn around fast and get a shot using the size of the p38 against it.
The way you write it you should really read up on merges & energy as well as trying to find someone to teach you, maybe join a squad to get some more input. I am a pretty bad pilot myself, otherwise i would offer you a ride or some winging, but maybe you try to join someones plane and see how he does it or ask other pilots to do some duels in TA & DA for praktice. Good time to do that is when the combat in the arena is uneven and the situation verry boring.
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As a five year P-38 flier, I can say with certainty that if you are in a Spitfire and you get outmaneuvered by a P-38, you really might want to consider flying heavy bombers.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
As a five year P-38 flier, I can say with certainty that if you are in a Spitfire and you get outmaneuvered by a P-38, you really might want to consider flying heavy bombers.
Dont you think thats a little uncalled for in Help and Training Forum?
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
As a five year P-38 flier, I can say with certainty that if you are in a Spitfire and you get outmaneuvered by a P-38, you really might want to consider flying heavy bombers.
LOL. That was FUNNY and I largely agree with you but as ten year Spit pilot (this game and it's predessesor), as you might have ascetained, I've run into some wiley and talented P38 pilots. If I've learned one thing in this time it's that you never want to enter a fight assuming anything. In the right hands any plane can beat virtually any other. I've had P40's give me fits and there's no way they should be able to do that. It all depends on who's piloting that con you're engaging.
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If you're in a Spitfire against a P-38 and you find yourself in an angles fight keep the speed in the medium range (250mph IAS to 150mph IAS). Don't take the fight vertical unless you have an overwhelming energy advantage otherwise the P-38 will easily kill you if you do.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
As a five year P-38 flier, I can say with certainty that if you are in a Spitfire and you get outmaneuvered by a P-38, you really might want to consider flying heavy bombers.
Originally posted by Schatzi
Dont you think thats a little uncalled for in Help and Training Forum?
The only P38 flying benny has done in the last 5 years is one of those toys where you whip around at the end of a string ! While Im no pro at the 38 most of the info benny has posted is way off.
Schutt and Ack-Ack have the best info here. Remember Phil alot of these guys have 1000's of hours "flying" these planes and know many little tricks that get them the kills. Practice and time will bring you up to their abilities too. What you need to learn here is what Aces High planes fly like. Other sims do it different ways and while the basics can translate to this game, I would take the rest with a grain of salt.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
In level flight you and the P38 are close but you have a definite climb advantage and if the P38 pilot doesn't know how to properly use flaps a turn advantage.
Hope this helps. Have fun.
I would like to see this.....and never assume if's.....if's get ya killed....... one way to beat a 38 is to keep him in the horizontal in the mid speed range where he can't get all of his flaps out or allow him to force a vertical fight.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
The main thing to remember no matter what you fly is to use your plane's strengths and exploit you opponent's weaknesses.
This is sound advise.
But it will be hard to know the weaknesses of your opponents plane if you have never flown it. And you can learn only so much by what you read here.
And no offence to spit drivers. but you simply arent going ot learn very much from just driving spits.
Take a day out a week (or night as the case may be) and take the time to learn the other planes as well.
Learn their strengths and weaknesses first hand and not just by what you read.
Then when you do climb in your spit and go up against these planes you will have at least a first hand working knowledge of what they typically can and cant do. And what they are prone to do in certain situations.
You may even learn how to use an opponents strengths against him
This will put you in a much better position to be able to fight against these planes.
Also. Never never never underestimete your opponent no matter what they are in.
always assume you are going against the best
There are alot of guys here that can very quickly turn a situation from what looks like an easy kill. to the fight of your life at a moments notice
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
As a five year P-38 flier, I can say with certainty that if you are in a Spitfire and you get outmaneuvered by a P-38, you really might want to consider flying heavy bombers.
You mean this isnt helpful Schatzi? ;)
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Phil:
I've been in the game for just under 3 years, and its my first serious attempt at a flight sim. I feel your pain.
I also have an "I can do this myself if I try hard enough" personality. Trying that in AH was a huge mistake -- I wish I would have gone to a trainer much sooner than I did.
Here's why:
Doing the right thing poorly will win 80% of the time So much depends on a few concepts and tactics. A couple sessions with a dogfight teacher and you'll be amazed at how much better your combat goes.
Good tactics aren't natural (for most of us) Stumbling through will very rarely give the breakthrough insights that make for good ACM. Some people have an intuition that lets them see the right thing to do, even if they cant explain why its right. The vast, vast majority (like me) do the opposite -- we keep making the same mistakes and can't figure out why they aren't working!
Seeing a trainer would have cut 6-12 months off my learning curve. Set up a session, then practice what you learn for a few weeks. Keep doing that, and you'll be very pleased with the results.
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Thanks again !
I've read, absorbed and put your input into practice.
I've attended the Taining Arena and flew with some good pilots.
Scraps/fights have been recorded and studied carefully....
TIME HEALS MANY THINGS:aok
ps. When playin' the game, pay attention to the "host" msg.
OPP7755 has landed "X" victories in a SPITIX:D
Its working !
Phil
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Awesome! :)