Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hangtime on May 13, 2000, 03:03:00 AM
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Remove it or not?? State why. Be concise. No name callin. Just give yer vote and yer reasoning.
[This message has been edited by Hangtime (edited 05-13-2000).]
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Personaly, I fly the F4u-D model as a favorite, as I feel the C model is a bit more powerful than what the job requires. I think the Gun/round data should be verified, and a decision be made from that point.
How's that for fence-sitting (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Greg 'wmutt' Cook
332nd Flying Mongrels
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How about turn off Arcade Mode gunnery?
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No........
I like the Big Blue target..
It screams,come kill me out loud.
Oh, and funked only replyed to reach 1700 posts. Cause he flys cannons too (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
Dog out...
[This message has been edited by Wardog (edited 05-13-2000).]
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Remove it. Reason: there is an aircraft with similar flight characterstics, so there's no need for it, and the guns on it are just laughable and destroys most fights.
When I meet a Spit of gun hog, I gotta jink and hope that he doesn't ping me from 800+, whereas other aircraft I can save my e and ahve a more "realistic" flight.
Also, we don't want to lose the regulars and that's happening now. So please, for the sake of the community remove the C. The proponents of the Hog can just as well fly the D.
Why did they add that aircraft anyway? It's not like there's a huge differen in flight model between the two hogs, like there is between the 109's.
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 05-13-2000).]
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keep it!!
take nothing away!!
add add add!
f4u's are the easiest kills in the game.
all you have to do is not head on them and you win. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I've flown the f4u1c a bit this tour mostly as jabo attack which is tons of fun. I would hate to see that aspect of enjoyment taken away.
but what I think is the reason the f4u1'c guns are so effective is the ammount of ammo carried.
It carries so many cannon rounds the corsair regular can take those low probability distance shots spray a ton of ammo and have ammo remaining for another few kills.
the f4u is not the only 4 hispano armed fighter. the typhoon also has 4 cannons but carries less ammo, has more dispersion from the guns way out on the wings, carries less ordnance and maneuvers less easily although it has great top speed.
I wish i had magic cannons you all are talking about but it takes me a good 5 to 6 hits in one area with the f4u to get a fatal hit on a target.
I just dont see how 4 cannons would do anything other than shred any aluminum plane to bits no matter what range they hit as long as they hit.
why not turn off range icons under d3? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
btw you guys know about high altitude shooting right? 1000yards came regularly to the good shooters at altitude in real life from the documentary i just saw on Korean War dogfights.
the f4u1c will be much less competitive when AH gets flooded with yaks, yak9's gonna be so quick and maneuverable only shot the f4 gonna have is a head on and only a moron takes the head on in all but the worst situations where its shoot head on or get no shot at all.
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 05-13-2000).]
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Removing ANY aircraft (as long as its historic, which the -1C is) sets a very, very bad precedent.
That means whenever anyone gets sick of the dweeb plane of the week, they can scream for it to be removed. And it might. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
If this starts... Your favorite aircraft might be next !!
StSanta, think about what your saying. The very same thing could be said of a Dora or even the A8, depending on your point of view.
And for everyones information, that don't know, I do NOT fly the -1C myself. I think its highly overrated.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-13-2000).]
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Verm thanks for saving me the time to type a reply.
This whole discussion reminds me of FA and the players crying about the Frank in the Arcade rooms. The Zone ended up removing the Frank just because the players were whining about how good it was (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
Fury
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yep I think we better get our daily dose of McCarthyism for today (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
the Yak9 must go...
its communist, its to small, to fast and its red.
the P-38L must be removed...
its got two engines and no torque problems so it must be communist too! remove it!
The 109G10 is overmodelled! remove it!...
no other aircraft gets the luxury of Nitros Oxide. the g10 can run away any time it wants and climbs like a rocket... it must be a communist too! remove it!
The 190a5 is to uber!...
it turns with the a6m5a and has 4 cannons!
it must be a red... remove it!
La5fn...
It's red!!!!
remove it!!!
I could go on but this is just to stupid to continue on with and I already said my view in a previous post.
cheers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Okay, I despise the F4U-1C of all aircraft in AH, but I don't think its capabilities are far from reality, or the truth. Below, is a list of various aircraft in AH followed by their armament's salvo weight, which is total projectile mass per second:[list=1]
- Fw 190A-8 (w/115g MG151), 6.71kg/sec
- F4U-1C, 6.50kg/sec
- Fw 190A-8 (w/92g MG151), 5.57kg/sec
- Spit IX, 4.46kg/sec
- P-38L, 4.05kg/sec
- F4U-1D, 3.64kg/sec
- Spit V, 3.46kg/sec
- C.205 (w/92g MG151), 3.12kg/sec
- La-5FN, 2.56kg/sec
- Bf 109G-6 (w/115g MG151), 2.46kg/sec
- Bf 109G-6 (w/92g MG151), 2.17kg/sec[/list=a]
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(http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero/5GIAP.jpg)
leonid, Komandir
5 GIAP VVS RKKA (http://www.adamfive.com/guerrero)
"Our cause is just. The enemy will be crushed. Victory will be ours."
[This message has been edited by leonid (edited 05-13-2000).]
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Remove the ppl who want it removed. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
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I'm all for strengthening the panzer armour again - they're very easy to kill with the Typhoon (and therefore F4U-1C). It's simply not worth carrying rockets or bombs since the cannon rounds do the job better!
Plane vs plane combat is not an issue, the 1C (or Typhoon) isn't that hard to evade you know...
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(http://www.jtsystems.demon.co.uk/tempstruff/DumaAlternative.jpg)
Duma
XO The Red Dragons
http://www.reddragons.de (http://www.reddragons.de)
[This message has been edited by -duma- (edited 05-13-2000).]
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The F4U-1C appears to be an unfortunate set of coincidences. For jabo and ground attack it would seem to be an unbeatable choice.
1. Toughest plane in the game?
2. Reasonably fast.
3. Rolls well, stable gun platform.
4. Four cannon, with a ton of ammo.
5. Able to carry 2 bombs and 4 rockets.
The P-51D and P-38L can carry more rockets(6 and 10), but their guns are much less powerful and their inline engines probably make them more vulnerable to damage.
The Typhoon has the same guns, but with less ammo and less ordinance ability.
The other 4x20mm planes(Fw 190A-8, N1K2-J) have comparitively pitiful ordinance loads, and less powerful cannon with less ammo.
Removing ANY aircraft (as long as its historic, which the -1C is) sets a very, very bad precedent.
Hopefully though, the precedent of it's inclusion will allow other similar planes to be included too. Eg: Yak-9UT, 3xB-20 La-7, Mustang Ia, Ki-44/61/84 with 4x20mm etc.
PS: Someone invent a time machine, go back and make the USAAF put 4x20mm in the P-51D. Now just imagine THAT plane in AH from day 1. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Verm, removing a historical plane might be a bad idea, but I wonder if putting it in wasn't an even worse one.
The thing is, the difference is flight characteristics are negligble between the C and D The same cannot be said about the 109's (maybe between G10 and G6, but if you're a dedicated 109 driver, I think you'll find a substantial difference).
My main two arguments is the fantastico guns of the C, the fact that flight models are almost identical and then that regulars are planning to leave.
I don't know how the A5 will fly, and if it is similar to A8, then I say we don't need it. If it is an A8 with Überguns, leave it out too.
Mostly I stay well clear of the F4U's guns, but sometimes I get within D800 which is about where the F4UC lethality becomes a big factor.
Sure, the plane is overrated. I mean, it's a C with big guns. The guns, however, make a world of difference in this case.
What good logical reasons would there be to keep it in the game? Granted, your point is well made that it is a historical aircrat (albeit it was produced in very low numbers and IIRC, not widely used in AA). One other argument would be that they've spent time modelling it (doubtful, adding other guns and tweaking the FM just a little would be enough) and a third that it is a favourite ride of many people.
Verm; I'll make you an offer. I'll sacrifice one of my favourite planes, the G10 or the FW190A8 for the taking out of the Hog C. I do this to keep some regulars I really like in the game, among with the other reasons I've described.
Fair enough?
Not that it is my choice, but it goes to show what I am willing to do.
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 05-13-2000).]
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Keep the plane but tune down the gun the guns are way too strong.
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Ok, actually became a paying customer last night. I have allways liked a brace of fifties and historicaly they were considered a devestating gunset. I don't belive that they are represented well enough in AH. Many sims are much worse but for the most part... This is cannon birds. To be competitive you need to have a cannon plane. If fifties were a bit more powerful then there would be no need but as you can see this is not the case. A plane with 6 fifties should put out more lead per second than a Spit 9 with more API projectiles hitting those not modeled fatal ac parts.... I think everyone will agree that is not the case.
So... I not only say keep the 1C but I say add the Hellcat with the 2 20mm and 4 fifties option. Add a cannon option to any plane that had em... Give everyone a chance at playing "cannon aces".
lazs
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I agree...send it to hell or downgrade those turbolasers.
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I don't know that removing a plane would lead to such dire concequences. These same guys (HT and Pyro) removed the cannon Hawg from WB when it really unbalanced the arena there. To be honest I was really surprised to see it even introduced here after what happened in WB with it.
Having said that I don't really mind having it in the planes set. One on one without a huge energy advantage, they're pretty easy to deal with. I think the real problem is the gunnery model in the sim.
I'm sure that Pyro is correct when he says that the guns are as accurate as they possibly can be, however with perfect range data available at all times and the FOV feature (which I think is a great idea BTW) it is just too easy to kill at ranges beyond those experianced in RL.
Want to make the dweeb 1000yd gunnery go away? It's really simple to do. Keep the icons just junk the range info. People will then have no choice but to get up close and personnal before firing.
The cannon Hawg and other cannon planes will still be deadly, but you won't see any more of the 1000yd spray and pray. Actually you probably will still see it, but it won't be anywhere near as effective as it is now.
Pryo once asked, "Do we want complete accuracy in the modeling of the gunnery, or do we want to model accuratly the historical result of the gunnery? Well we have seen what complete accuracy in modeling the guns has done, maybe we should have gone with the historical result. Personnally I would like to see all rounds just disappear after about 500 yds.
Accurate? No. Realistic in what you should expect for WWII airborne gunnery? I think it would be better than what we currently have.
Sharky
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Keep it.
Hooligan
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Keep the plane it has been here for months now and i still dont see everybody flying it. yes the cannons make it deadly but all the cannons in the game are deadly. the plane has its advantages and disadvantages like everything else in the game
Trell
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So... I not only say keep the 1C but I say add the Hellcat with the 2 20mm and 4 fifties option. Add a cannon option to any plane that had em... Give everyone a chance at playing "cannon aces".
lazs
Does that include adding the 4 cannon option to the Spit V and IX?
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I think it is a Hispano issue, not the f/m of the Hawg. Revisit the lethality issue.
...or...
What Joemud said.
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Remove the P51 first then the Spit then the FW then you can pick on the F4U-1C
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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I vote no.
-Westy
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Don't remove anything... the F4U1C is a dog to fly anyway.. instead we want more planes!
Gimme a jug and even I will whipe my bellybutton with the F4
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StSanta I understand your sentiment (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) and it admirable.
But where does it stop? Personally I die many times over to Spitfires and N1K2's, than I ever do to F4U-1C's. And I bet (if removing planes became a "Voting" thing) that I could get quite a few votes from the populace to remove Spitfires. Yes there is that much hatred for Spitfires out there, but is that a reason to remove it from the game?
IMO, both are bad. We have too few planes as it is, and to me to actually "ban" one is tantamount to sacriledge.
Plus, the C and D should have very similar FM's. The x6 .50's plus their ammo are about the same weight as the x4 20mm and their ammo. If the FM's were significantly different, then we would know there is a problem.
Sharky, you know as well as I do that the F4U-4B and the F4U-1C are two entirely different beasts. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) The -4B has the speed of a G10, much better climb, and hell of alot better acceleration. If these people don't like the -1C, they would absolutely crap their pants over a -4B.
And 1k gunnery? For all the talk on the BBS, I still havent' seen a single person produce film of them consistently getting kills at 1k. Occaisonal hits yes. Regular kills, not in my experience.
Nashwan, 4 Cannon Spit IX's? We already have them. They're called N1K2's (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) Seriously, they don't bother me. Spitfires that get into good firing solutions on me, kill me quite quickly as it is. Rarely do I come away "shot up" from a spitire. Their guns are quite lethal already. So sure, IMO bring them on.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
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Guys,
Lets think about whats been discussed here.
Are we talking about removing a plane because something is amiss with the guns or are we talking about removing a plane because someone has had a few bad experiences in getting shot down by it?
The tone of the thread is bearing for the former and I think this is just plane (pun (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) wrong. All of us have planes in which we have trouble against and if we all start calling for removal of said planes, we'd all be flying spits.
Personally, I havent found anything particularly UBER about the guns on the F4U-1C. Sure theres alot of ammo and there are a couple aces out theres whos gunnery in the F4U is strictly superb but is this the plane's fault? The guns on the F4U-1C are not any more deadly than those on the N1K1 other than the rate of fire and a SLIGHTLY faster round (I mean very slightly faster....I've flown both planes especially the Niki).
The F4U is not an uberplane....its just flown by Uberpilots.
Keep it.
-Ding
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Dingy should run for congress
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I don't think the -C should have been modeled, but since it's here it's sort of stupid to remove it. After all, this is just a big main arena with people flying whatever they want. If we ever get an historical arena, the -C won't be available much there. Problem solved.
Of all the planes in AH, the -C is the only one which makes me say 'damn, I barely even pinged him' as I watch an enemy plane disintegrate. Not even the Niki or the A8 are as lethal. I'll leave it to the experts to discuss whether its guns are modeled well.
Lazs-- my favorite ride is a P-51D with 4x.50 cal, and I have no problems getting kills in it, even against buffs. Cannons are not necessary but they do make the enemy go down a lot faster.
ra
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Originally posted by indian:
Remove the P51 first then the Spit then the FW then you can pick on the F4U-1C
Indian...the FW before F4U1-c?...Fw190 is beaten by F4U in ABSOLUTELY all performances:
1-Dives better
2-higher speed at all altitudes
3-better hi alt performance
4-better turner
5-combat flaps
6-one-ping-kill-cannons
7-better zoom
8-equal rollrate
I was once asked "how do you fight a F4U in a fw190?" I answered "improvise cuz the f4u is an all around better plane".
I used to think that F4U accelerated worse than Fw. After seeing Bee's post in Vehicle forum, I see I was wrong.
So, let the Fw in peacle plz.Thks (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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I vote to remove the next plane on the list that will surely follow. And the next plane, and the next plane, until we are left with just 1 plane to fly...then I'll vote to remove that one too, so that we have no planes to fly.
Cobra
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ooops, double post (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by RAM (edited 05-13-2000).]
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Keep it!
I need cannon armed pork to substain my diet!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Maybe tune down the cannon a bit but it should not be removed
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Swager
I/JG2~Richthofen~
"Damn.....I can't believe I missed that shot!!!"
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/swager.jpg)
JG2 "Richthofen" (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2/)
[This message has been edited by Swager (edited 05-13-2000).]
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Honestly I feel this a/c shouldn't have been modeled but since its here I don't think it should be removed. Once you can get out of its way it usually a pretty easy kill. I think that cannon lethality should be looked into. I have noticed that things like, fighters, bombers, tanks, fuel dumps, large beer bottles and pizzas vaporize very quickly when the Area 51(TM) high speed advanced technology projectile weapons are trained on them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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remove the blasted thing as many have stated before, at least untill we have some more super limited production late late late late war super planes.
and the guns just cant be correct have seen 3 pings take off the wing of a 17 just silly.
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I vote NO
mainly for the reason Verm states, it would set a dangerous precedent.
However, I will vote to fix all the hispanos. Every hispano armed bird has a major advantage. They can peel panzers in one pass (even spits, I've done it and had it done to me). I peeled to 2 panzers in a single pass (very close together) in a P38 with guns only. It had to be that single hispano that peeled them, because I've survived 7 passes from a P-51 and watched it fly away while I was laughing in my tank.
Who needs cannon anyway? I usually land with all 150 of me 20mm rounds unless I was attacking bombers or ground targets (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
"Those who can't kill with .50s fly cannon"
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CavemanJ
CO, The Wrecking Crew
"Airpower is a thunderbolt launched from an egg shell invisibly tethered to a base."
--Hoffman Nickerson
To close with and destroy the enemy by use of fire, manuever, and shock effect
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Remove it --> No
Reduce the ammo load for play balance --> Yes
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Remove it ...NO
Tune down the guns for play ballance or peace of mind.....NO
Find out why they seem to be more excellent then the historical record seems to support..
Yes...
Or this is not going to go away. I dont want all cannons in the game to be equivilent. I want the flavour. I want the HS to have its advantages and its weaknesses.
I hope that HTC gets the gunnery routines to such a state that they can plug in the numbers for the HS or any other cannon and go ahhhhh thats it. I believe they will. Or my six HS Martin Baker MB5 will be a real handful.
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It ruins the game
people should be flying Tiffie for ground attack/panzer killing. Instead tehy fly the hog cuz its so much better. Try a 4 cannon a8 then a 4 cannon hog and see the difference in lethality.
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It should be disabled for online, enabled for offline.
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Rendar
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f4u1c should be removed - maybe then we'll see typhoons
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Zigrat dont mean this to be an attack but i though i read some where that the Ic was a US ground attack plane. i could be wrong i dont remember where i read that at.
one other thought i dont think that the plane is that hard to kill as long as he does not have alt on you. the plane is not really uber its nothin more than a hog that can kill with snap shots. the last thing i would want to see is HTC to start turning down cannon power. it would affect alot of planes here not just the hog. i think pyro showd his reasons y the cannons are soo powerfull back in a 50 cal thread.
trell
[This message has been edited by Trell (edited 05-13-2000).]
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Does anyone remember Torque's common 8-10 kills in the n1k2 before the 1C came out? Should we get rid of that one too?
That's a plane I'm actually afraid of if I see it come above me, the f4u-1c is easily avoided. Let's get rid of the George.
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Fatty
Fat Drunk Bastards (http://fdb.50megs.com)
"I ain't givin none of you bastards a hug who ain't bought me at least 6 beers."
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Hell NO ! If you start removing A/c we'll end up in a Spits only arena ..
I fly the D but i wnt to have the OPTION of lying the C when i'm sick of 1 ping Spits, Nikis, FW's and 205's and 109's
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I vote for torques Idea: Remove the whiners.
the whiners are desperately needed over at IEN where the shiney happy people working there honestly care what you think (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I fly the "C" I also fly other planes as well. I die a lot more in the "C" than I get kills. Why do I fly it......................
1-) Its Big
2-) Its got bent wings
3-) Its Blue
4-) Its real purdy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
5-) With my gunnery skills, I need those cannon.
I vote keep it!
coker
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Remove? No.
But it's certainly decreasing the fun with the sim, so a thought out gameplay balance could be an option maybe?
Az
II.(K)/JG2
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Originally posted by HaHa:
f4u1c should be removed - maybe then we'll see typhoons
No! No more Typhoons!
Currently I'm almost unique and everyone seems to think the Typhoon sucks. Don't let them actually try to LEARN how to fly it! Please! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif)
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Many times the case has been made 'It's the Pilot; Not the plane'.
"The quality of the box matters little. Success depends on the man who sits in it"
--- Baron Manfred von Richthofen
It would seem at first glance that the 1-c with its 4 hispanos kinda wipes that idea into the crapper.
"Good flying never killed an enemy yet"
---- Ed Mannock. RAF; 73 Victories WWI
With the exception of a few system awarded manuver kills; the same is true here. You need to lay ordinance on the target. Gunnery is required.
"The most important thing in flying was shooting, next the various tactics in comming into a fight and last of all flying ability itself."
---- Billy Bishop. RAF 73 victories WWI
Ahhhh.. now we get to the crux.. That gunnery; more than the A/C or the Pilot is a key factor for killing consistently.
"... the best was when you made one pass; shot an opponent down quickly; and pulled back up. The secret was to do the job in one pass... "
---- Erich Rudorffer, LW, 222 Victories WWII
And; here we see that killing 'em fast is crucial too.
Take a mediocre pilot and drop him in a 1-c hawg; you've got a very dangerous situation for even a skilled opponent. One touch; one snapshot and yer toast.. Take a good pilot and stick him in the 1-c and yah have a heluva problem on your hands. Put a great pilot in one and you have a funeral every 20 seconds.
Pull the plane?? Nope. Not after reading this thread; tho truth be told prior to the very good discussions in the previous posts I was willing to vote for elimination.
Now; I'm looking at those range icons... get rid of them. Lets make the gunnery more realistic!
"Aerial Gunnery is 90 percent instinct and 10 percent aim."
---- Fred Libby; RFC, 1st American Ace WWI
LETS GET THE FOCUS BACK ON SKILLS; ELIMINATE RANGE ICONS IN THE MA!
my .02
Hang
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The reason I play AH. We got uber out the ass. On agw I use to read different ideas to try and duplicate the fear of death. Ive never read a thread like that on this BB. Here,one badly planned attack and you dont go home. The 1C is just part of that. And yes i do remember torque in the NIk2. I dont want him back in it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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serious?
Nay.
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Fatty I'm gonna suggest to Gordo we skip the demerits this time and just place ya in the hole this time.Leave George outta this.Besides isn't George your next favorite ride other than Hogs (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif)
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ArkanReb
FAT DRUNK BASTARDS (http://fdb.50megs.com)
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I say keep it in there. You all can learn not to get in the way of its cannons. Who on the battle feild runs right in to the lions mouth, Run i say, jump weave any thing so it dont have a stright shot on ya. I love killing em, You know damn well that thay cant see you becuase of the blind spot in the rear. And most of them that i see cant fly em sept for Torque. Then you best IMO run faster, and pray to God. At least kiss your but goodby. Like any plane if it is flown right it can be a killer. There all death traps or killers it all in the pilot.
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Even though Fatty has a good point, screw him.
The F4U-C has lasers, sure, but I have yet to get them behind a plane consistant, and that is reason enough to let it be. It's just a squeak to fly.
At least in the F4U-C, when you totally suck you get killed. It gets slow, it can't turn great, and ya can't even see Gordo driving a Mobile home towing a pizza parlor behind you. For those reasons I don't drive it.
However, the P51, in the hands of a dweeb all the way to a master of the game, will ALWAYS be unbeatable. It, just runs away.
Boom, Zoom, Point her South, get away soon.
Yeeeeeeeeuuuuuuuk!
So delete that crappy plane is ONE has to be deleted.But deleting planes is bad.
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Keep it.
Just do not make much noise when we get the 262 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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I say keep it..... just tone down the guns, or really up the tank armour (upping tank armour not my favorite choice)
Jarbo
of the Buccaneers
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Originally posted by Hangtime:
LETS GET THE FOCUS BACK ON SKILLS; ELIMINATE RANGE ICONS IN THE MA!
my .02
Hang
This has my vote !!!!!! But just the range
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air_rules = Play fair ....Don't worry about points......Keep a sense of humor......Drink Jim Beam......and don't let the fediddlein cat walk on the keyboard.......!!!
(http://www.geocities.com/MotorCity/Track/1589/airlogo.gif)
air_squadron (http://www.airsquadron.com)
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I'd hate to see any plane removed. I would like Pyro to make sure that the lethality of its guns are correct. IMO they are just too much.
(I find it interesting from the stats above that the 190 puts out more lead per salvo, but I know that it can't kill with just a couple hits.)
The F4u-1c isn't an uber-plane, IMO it's the easiest plane to shoot down when it's below you. What makes it so special is its guns.
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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RAM that was a joke most took it that way, all that have read my post know I want all types of planes in the game. Pyros post should show all the way the game is heading they have said before they want to stand out among the WWII Aircombat sims and the only way is to do plane that have not been done before. If they realy wanted to unbalance the arena they would have put in the F4U-4B.
Now if hairball will shut up and let Hangtime have his keyboard back wwe wont need this post again.
By the for hairball I have 2 breeds of dogs in my house and turn and burn beagle and a boom and zoom German Shepard. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
By the way I dont hate cats just like cat jokes. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Tommy (INDIAN) Toon
1st Aces High Trainer Corps.
Home of The Allied Fighter Wing A.F.W.
A.F.W. Homepage (http://www.geocities.com/~tltoon)
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The 1-c is the weakest plane in the set in alot of area's...without a serious E advantage it's a very difficult bird to survive in. Most of the good 1-C drivers would be just as effective in a 190,1-d or pony...as for the guns...I really don't see that much differance vs 4 20mm in 190,4 20mm in nikki,4 20mm in tiffie, or 3 20mm in 109 with regard to leathality...one good shot in any and parts fly off.
Now the range/ammo load out is certainly an issue...and the 1-c "dweeb kill" is out there...but 90% of the guys who got me in the damm thing either bounced my bellybutton while I was occupied...or suprised the hell out of me with a good "go for broke" snap shot...both are just part of the game to me...ya pay your money...pick your ride...and take your chances.
Most of the really good sticks in here are kind of like bear bryant...they whup ya with their plane...then come on back and wup ya with yours...it's not the wood wupping on ya...it's the guy holding tha damm bat (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif).
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I agree. The ONLY thing that makes planes so good is not their guns, but the fact that the pilot can "magically" know the distance.
Remove the Range icon and you will see all these problems dissapear...and for once, we might see some REAL flying instead of the usual "oh he's higher than me and at 4k range, ill climb to near stall, wait till he's inside 1.2 k and shoot him up with my cannons!" syndrome everyone hates.
So much realism here..and yet we get space-age laser ranging gear! Im sure grandpa would've LOVED to have one of those when he was on the cockpit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Well, don't really know how the AH F4U-1c shoots. However, I do know that I thought the guys in WB who complained about the cannon-armed F4U-4 were a buncha crybabies who didn't know how to avoid a HeadOn pass. I suspect the same is true here with regard to those complainin' about the -1c.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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you see the problem with only firing up close in ww2 was not because the bullets could not damage out at 1000 yards. but because the pilots didn't have the range info to know how much lead to pull to hit that far out!
death to range icons
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Well I am a crybaby..But you should give it a try for a while. It really hits you how weird it is not when they get you..but when you fly it. The HO from a 1c can of course be avoided. But some of the Fokker DVII shots that you can make hangin on your nose are increadable. The plane stayes very pointable in a near hammerhead. Nasty combo with those cannons and the range info and lots of ammo. But tell yourself that the people that have concernes about it are whiners if it makes it eiser for you. I guess the alternative is that it makes you feel cool to call people whiners...
Remember the HS before their first correction..I could easily kill b17s by the time the range indicated 1k... the bomber pilots that didnt like that were whiners.
they should have learned the anti BVR manuver to avoid me...
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SnakeEyes, it's not the HO's I object to. They are avoidable, although aoiding them sometimes cost you E or position.
It's the magical One Ping, One Death bit that concerns me. That and the fact that due to these fantastic guns, I really fight the F4UC in a MUCH more different, and difficult, way than I do with say the P-51. With the latter, I can try barrel rolls, quick breaks, horisontal ant vertical scissors and have a reasonable chance of survival since I can let him in just a little bit closer and still survive a ping or two.
If it's the plane people love, then the D is basically is the same one. If it is the guns, which I suspect is the case, then why not just say so?
These are my observations. They aren't the words of a crybaby, SnakeEye. Maybe if you wished to adress the points I've made in this and other posts this discussion could go forward. It's quite obvious that you apply the WB analogy to those who have questions about the C in this game.
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 05-14-2000).]
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One of the solutions would be to make cannon Hog a low availability plane. Historically. Some 200 or so were produced, and they were all retrofitted with .50s later, afaik. Here it has more sorties in a week than it was its whole historical record (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Once we get uber planes in limited numbers, just put cannon Hog with them.
Some 1400 262s were produced. Some 30 000 109s and some 200 cannon Hogs.
So, for every cannon Hog available 7 262s and 150 109s should be available. And 0.75 Ta 152s (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Dont remove the plane!!!!!
Make the hispanos a little less "uber" or upgrade all other 20mm with exploding shells.
The debatte on Hisp/mausers shows that the hispanos are way way overmodelled on the F4u**c1.
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BORK,BORK,BORK!!!"
Crabofix <What happend?...:A stranger morgie turndee burndee ,flip flip flip flip flip flip>
Flygflottlj.19(Lento R5)"swedish Gladiators"
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Make the hispanos a little less "uber" or upgrade all other 20mm with exploding shells.
The debatte on Hisp/mausers shows that the hispanos are way way overmodelled on the F4u**c1.
Ummm sorry Crabofix, but all other cannons do have exploding shells.
And the debate on Hisp/mausers has shown that they should be quite a bit more lethal than the mauser, unless you have been reading a thread that I have missed.
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-14-2000).]
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SnakeEyes... I think you will find that, just as in WB, the majority of the people complaining are of the "wife beating girly grey" persuassion. They want to have the only snap shot kill, don't blow your e planes in the game. Who can blame them. If you read the TAIS report on testing between the Manly Blue Hog and Hellcat against a captured eurotrash 190A-5 U4 you will see that Hogs have Allready been undermodeled for gameplay.
lazs
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Shit I suck with that plane too !!!! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) (cannon hog) Seems even with so called "uber" guns u still have to hit the target ??? lol , Well maybe I suck with them all ?
No vote here , I like the Typhoon best though (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) . Speed baby speed .
c ya's spro
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Keep the 1C, remove it's easy mode cannons, like funked said.
I have film where F4U-1C con is D950 yards on my six, and I'm in a historically good armoured FW190-A8, 1 ping, 1 shell, Poof! Dead. Email if you want to view it.
Also, saw (1) F4U-1C take out 4 bombers, all with good gunners, one pass a piece...uber cannons!
[This message has been edited by Ripsnort (edited 05-14-2000).]
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I beg all to consider a 3rd alternative.
Is it the Hispano's themselves that are so incredible? Or the ammo that is being modeled?????
Give the Hispano's the option to carry either AP ammo (for ground attack) or HE ammo (for fighting planes, bombers)
The HE ammo should NOT penetrate armor, and the AP ammo could take down a plane, but not as well as HE since there is no explosive componant.
Make them choose one or the other, then handicap them accordingly.
The other thing to remember, is that the Hispano was the TOP all around 20mm cannon in WWII.
Do NOT rememove the 1-c from the game. DO recheck the figures on the Hispano's
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I'm a little leery of all these '1 ping death' reports. For those that don't know, you don't hear all the pings. I've actually had zero ping deaths, while a 190 was behind me. Do I assume he hit me zero times and the 190s cannons are that overmodelled?
Unless you're managing to kill planes consistantly with two rounds of ammo spent, then there is no evidence for the '1 ping death' syndrome.
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Fatty
Fat Drunk Bastards (http://fdb.50megs.com)
"I ain't givin none of you bastards a hug who ain't bought me at least 6 beers."
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Don't remove it or else I'd have to hear Fatty squeak.
Gordo
Fat drunk Bastards (http://fdb.50megs.com/)
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No, please don't remove it.
Why?
1.Fly the big blue from time to time myself.
2.Do not have too much trouble when encountered by a 1c, means i can get my bellybutton out of the hell most times (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
blitz
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I don't have a problem with it. If we had the D9 people would be crying about it. I think some get frustated because they just can't conquer this game. I do hate to see a high F4u when I am in a pony but war is hell!
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Keep it--why in the world would you want to get rid of any AC!
yes it 4 20mm are powerfull--they are supposed to be.
Stayu away from the business end of those guns. In AH, all the cannons are bad news--
I agree with all of verms points too.
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cammo.jpg)
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I don't want it removed, but the Panzer definitely needs stronger armor against it. One F4U1C can kill six panzers handily. That's just ridiculous.
How many 20mm rounds = 1000lbs of eggs?
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Hristo:
Be careful of what you ask for, you just might get it. I seem to recall that only 700 or so 190Ds were ever produced. And only one squad of Ta152s really saw any combat.
In any event, I suspect that the same rule applies here as applied in WB... 1 Ping Sound is not equal to only 1 Ping Hitting.
PS - I think you're right, Lazs. I've always taken my 1 ping death medicine like a good boy. But perhaps that's because I tote 6x50s around. The Grey boys are only used to dishing-out the one-ping kills... and it seems that they don't take their medicine real well.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Originally posted by Ghosth:
Do NOT rememove the 1-c from the game. DO recheck the figures on the Hispano's
I have been going over a lot of weapon details this weekend and will continue to this week. Regardless, the 1C isn't going to be the biggest baddest plane in this game. Nastier planes will be coming, but some things will be changing in a couple versions that will balance things out and increase the fun factor.
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Doug "Pyro" Balmos
HiTech Creations
The road to hell is paved with good intentions.
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Darnit Pyro that's like giving a damp sponge to someone who's been stranded in the desert for a week. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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(http://userwww.sfsu.edu/~kalger/sig.gif)
"Sorry can't talk now, gotta shoot."
-Bud Anderson
[This message has been edited by Soulyss (edited 05-14-2000).]
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SnakeEyes wrote:
PS - I think you're right, Lazs. I've always taken my 1 ping death medicine like a good boy. But perhaps that's because I tote 6x50s around. The Grey boys are only used to dishing-out the one-ping kills... and it seems that they don't take their medicine real well.
The grey boys are the LW, yes?
PLEASE oh PLEASE come join me in my 109 and watch me do the one ping wonder thing. Think it is safe to say that 6*50's is a more powerful package than 1*20 +2*13mm.
On a good day, I use about 50 rounds of 20mm, including misses. When I hit an enemy, it sure does not go down with one hit. it goes down when I get an aspect shot off from short distance landing lots of rounds in a very small area. I got some films if ya wanna see (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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F4u-1C OUT OUT!!!
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"Nastier planes will be comeing". (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by easymo (edited 05-15-2000).]
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As if! I love the 1C. It stays...
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Is cannon-Hog uber ? Never ! Only whiners call it uber. The plane is just too damn ugly to be uber. It is just a fantasy crutch for certain pilots, pulled out of the closet to satisfy the cannon envy (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Keep it, kill it, strafe the chutes of cannon-Hoggers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
There is nothing manly in cannon-Hoggin people around. Period. D-Hogging, otoh, is quite different category. I have much respect for these guys.
Santa, do not pay too much attention to a guy with scary name who doesn't even play AH. However, that doesn't seem to stop him to contionously advocate certain side and deny the other side a plane which was actually there. Not to mention the blabbing of a certain manly guy. What makes him so manly anyway. Flying one of the ugliest planes in history ? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
However, do not remove the cannon Hog. Do not remove the Hispanos. Fix MK 108. Dump the icons. And yes, give us the antidote for this fantasy-Hog. A historical LW plane will do.
[This message has been edited by Hristo (edited 05-15-2000).]
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Keep it!
From score database, tour 3:
jochen has 9 kills and has been killed 1 time against the F4U-1C.
Now, I can accept that. And I fly 109's and 190's only. Those cannons are problem only when they point to you so don't let him point them to you. It's simple as that!
On the other hand...
jochen has 6 kills and has been killed 5 times against the B-26B.
I don't know what to think about this one?
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jochen Jagdflieger JG 2 'Richthofen' Aces High
Geschwaderkommodore (on leave) Jagdgeschwader 2 'Richthofen' (http://personal.inet.fi/cool/jan.nousiainen/JG2) Warbirds
Thanks for the Fw 190A-5 HTC!
Ladysmith wants you forthwith to come to her relief
Burn your briefs you leave for France tonight
Carefully cut the straps of the booby-traps and set the captives free
But don't shoot 'til you see her big blue eyes
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Don't remove it, I like it when I fly it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Keep the 1C but dump the range information on the icons.
So much of defensive ACM relies on forcing overshoots (scissors, high G barrel rolls etc)
Perfect range info allows shooters to open up at 600 yds with a very real possibility of getting a kill. Dump the range info = shorten the firing range = increased value of overshoot ACM.
IMHO, the very best thing brand W ever did was bring in close range killing. Energy fights became viable, and BnZ was given a whole new lease of life.
Pyro once asked, "Do we want complete accuracy in the modeling of the gunnery, or do we want to model accuratly the historical result of the gunnery?
You can't do a perfectly accurate gunnery model WITHOUT also perfectly simulating the conditions under which the gun was fired (no perfect range data).
Do one, without doing both, and you finish up with a LESS accurate model IMHO. Or how about wing flexing of the Spitfire in high G turns, leading to increased bullet dispersion? Is THAT modelled in AH?
Should it be, in order to have a 'perfectly accurate gun model'? Barrel overheat and wear? Gun jams?
There is a LOT more to a perfectly accurate gunnery model than ensuring that the rounds fly a proper ballistic path!
Dump the range icons ..... NOW! (Please (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 05-15-2000).]
[This message has been edited by Jekyll (edited 05-15-2000).]
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Keep it!
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bikekil
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
(http://www.raf303.org/308/308banner.gif)
[This message has been edited by bike killa (edited 05-15-2000).]
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Originally posted by Hristo:
Keep it, kill it, strafe the chutes of cannon-Hoggers (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Man Hristo Hammer is going to be real pissed off at you now. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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!!! Heater !!!
(http://www.geocities.com/heater_nl/_private/heater1.jpg)
Shit Happens All The Time
"If you have any trouble sounding condescending, find a Unix user to show you how it's done."
[This message has been edited by Heater (edited 05-15-2000).]
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I dont care either way.. (Dont really fly enough for it to matter what I get killed by <G> ), but one would have thought that they would have learned from their mistake of introducing the F4U-4C in WB (Or was it B?...anyways..the one with the 4 cannons (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)).
Exactly the same whines, gripes, defenses, etc...wonder if we'll see the same result?
Daff
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CO, 56th Fighter Group
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
Stay away from the business end of those guns. In AH, all the cannons are bad news--
With all due respect, Ammo, one cannot avoid the business end when having a good dogfight with another plane, inevitably, a high F4U always comes in and ruins it.
Also, tell me how to stay away from the business end when flying a slow bomber. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S>
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Dunno squat about HS ballistics, but I do know armor quite well (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) IMHO, all cannon birds have something not quite right in respect to damage, cannon at 1.0 = dead panzer IV, 1000lb at 10 feet = maybe tracked?
FYI a 1000lb bomb landing 10 feet from any tank ever built = upside down tank, believe it, I've seen it on the range a thousand times. In air to air I think the cannon hog has an advantage only because it has 4 cannon,face it a snapshot that connects from any pure cannon bird is death, even most spit pilots don't bother with the .303's until they run outta cannon. Range icons? yep bad, they not only supply range but indicate relative speed, trash 'em and you'll see a helluva lot of BnZ planes doing overshoots on the target, 'course those that learn to adjust are gonna become the proper WHAAAM! "where the hell did he come from?" types (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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pzvg- "5 years and I still can't shoot"
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keep it, otherwise i won't die enough.
Sour
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Sourkraut
JG-2 Richthofen (http://www.busprod.com/weazel2)
"Hey - someone has to be the target...."
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/sour.jpg)
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For all of you who really hate stats:
- F4U-1C --> 5838 kills / 3036 deaths
- F4U-1D --> 225 kills / 417 deaths
You could most likely conclude, because the only differnence is the armament, that armament is the reason. Logically, this is why one plane successful, and the lack of success in the other. (Shocked? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
Conclusion about the F4U-1C vs the F4U-1D:
- It is not the F/M or the plane as it is modeled (Unless the yellow nose art has some mystery effect (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
- It is flown tremendously more often by players
- It is tremendously more successful
The reasons that the guns are more effective:
- Very high lethality
- Very good long range effectiveness
BUT..... For any gun system to be lethal, it must get hits on target. This totally relies on players providing the neccessary accuracy to get hits.
---------------------------------
I see the WISDOM in Hangtimes proposal of removing ranging ICONS. His proposal will only effect the accuracy of the player shooting, not the mismodeling of guns for play balance.
Addtionally, the lethality of the gun does matter, but it is getting hits that matters more. To get hits, the shooting must be accurate. Range ICONS greatly increase player accuracy, perhaps artificially to much so.
---------------------------------
F4U-1D Conclusion:
This is the plane that might actually need to be removed from the MA. Interest in flying it is very low as is its success.
Further Conclusion:
Check the stats. After the F4U-1C, it is cannon equiped LW planes that have the highest success in the MA.
Therefore; if you keep removing or wanting to remove the "BBB" (Biggest Baddest Bird) then you will end up flying the F4U-1D and nothing else! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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Mino
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by Ripsnort:
With all due respect, Ammo, one cannot avoid the business end when having a good dogfight with another plane, inevitably, a high F4U always comes in and ruins it.
Also, tell me how to stay away from the business end when flying a slow bomber. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
<S>
Rip- the respect goes to you (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
My philosiphy is this--It matters not which AC it is with few exceptions--as long as they guy that happens along when you are in a heated dogfight is higher than you. If the guy is in the C-hawg, Spit,109, P51-- he is gonna ruin your day. The Hawg HAS TO BE HIGHER THAN YOU TO BE EFFECTIVE. A low energy low alt Corsair is not the threat a Spit is. I get more worried when I see a high spit or NIK than I do a HAWG. All they have to do is point the nose in the direction they want the AC to go and it goes (it is less forgiving to fly). Exception--and all it means is he needs more time with his guns to hurt you--AC like the 202 W/O cannons.
The Cannons are strong, i agree to that. i think the spits are pretty deadly too! Too strong? I am not sure its the cannons or the damage model. I do think the Panzer damage model needs some tweeks for sure.
And RIP--I know how frustrating it is to have a great long enduring dogfight only to have either one of his countrymen or your come and take part--yup gotta hate it--but this is the way of the arena (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) As far as the bombers--hmmmm--- dont fly targets (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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Saintaw... more power to ya if you fly with that armament. I'm used to the 4x20mm whiners in WB. Still, I suspect that 1 Ping noise does not always mean that you've been hit by only 1 Ping.
For the record, I played the Beta but decided against staying. Just didn't find AH gripping enough to stay... tho' I keep in tune to see where it's headed. If they ever model the F8F, P51H, or Ta152, then I might reconsider. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) Of course, if that happens Hristo is gonna get his shorts in a knot.
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SnakeEyes
o-o-o-
=4th Fighter Group=
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Keep it! I think it would be foolish to remove it, or any plane for that matter.
and install a...
Rolling Plane Set.
Yes we need a few more planes before HTC can run a reasonable RPS, but that will solve much of the problem. Or should I say complaints.
or better yet!
Historical Arena! (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
------------------------
daddog
332nd Flying Mongrels (http://www.ropescourse.org/flying.htm)
Snapshots (http://www.ropescourse.org/snapshot.htm)
(http://www.ropescourse.org/cdaddog.jpg)
Before you criticize someone, walk a mile in his shoes.
That way, if he gets angry, he'll be a mile away - and barefoot.
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Back up there a ways, Verm said it best.
Keep it.
I'm a hard-core F4U-1D pilot. (One of very few from the looks of it.) Yep, I've been carved by 1C's sometimes, but those have always been good pilots. Hell, Torque would have killed me if he was flying a kite I'm sure. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
Wait until I get my hands on a P47N! 8 fifties.... I can hear the whining already.
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
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Keep it.
But give us RAF types the Spitfire XIV
Give the LW types the Fw190D-9
Give the Russian types the YAK-9U
Give the Japanese types the J7W1 Shinden or the A7M3 Reppu.
Give the Italian types whatever aircraft they ask for.
Sisu
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Karnak, the USN equivalent to the late-war-wonders you mention is the F4U-4. Be careful what you ask for. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
Personally, I have little trouble evading the clumsy Hog drivers. Then (if I'm flying a Typhoon or Mustang) I run them down and execute them. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
[This message has been edited by funked (edited 05-15-2000).]
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Originally posted by Vermillion:
Ummm sorry Crabofix, but all other cannons do have exploding shells.
And the debate on Hisp/mausers has shown that they should be quite a bit more lethal than the mauser, unless you have been reading a thread that I have missed.
They definatly should be more powerful then the 151. I have learned a great deal about the HS and it should probaly be the benchmark cannon for WW2. Pyros job is to decide if flying 4 of them in AH is like flying 4 of them in WW2. I suspect that it is not. The LW planes are not underguned by any stretch.(imho) So we come down to a question of how much more powerful?
Removing the 1c has got to be the wrong answer. For the tanks... add 5mm or roof armour. Add a 20mm ack wagon. Add set ambush command.
For the planes. ....alot harder. But please dont make it 30% less effecitve. Find out why its more effecitve then it should be(if it is (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif))
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BTW, in Tour 3 I was 24 kills to 3 deaths in the F4U-1D. Nothin' wrong with 6x.50 cal my friends. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
(Don't look at my tour-4 numbers... I'm in a slump. <G> I'm only 9K to 6D already (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif))
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Lephturn - Chief Trainer
A member of The Flying Pigs
Visit Lephturn's Aerodrome for AH news, resources, and training data.
http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/ (http://users.andara.com/~sconrad/)
(http://tuweb.ucis.dal.ca/~dconrad/ahf/lepht.gif)
"MY P-47 is a pretty good ship
And she took a round coming 'cross the Channel last trip
I was thinking 'bout my baby and lettin' her rip
Always got me through so far
Well they can ship me all over this great big world
But I'll never find nothing like my North End girl
I'm taking her home with me one day, sir
Soon as we win this war"
- Steve Earl
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stsanta... I would love to "fly along" with you in your g10. Can you join up with someone in this sim? I mean, can a person co-pilot or observe?
lazs
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Keep the "C" but review it's guns AGAIN and AGAIN.
I'm not for removing ANY planes but I feel there needs to be some game balance and the Hog C's guns have ALWAYS seemed WAY over powered.
Mox
TWC
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Originally posted by -lazs-:
stsanta... I would love to "fly along" with you in your g10. Can you join up with someone in this sim? I mean, can a person co-pilot or observe?
lazs
Laz, yes you can, but you cannot film the event (at least the last time I tried), only pilot can film it.
Just type .join XXXX (XXX is pilot name)
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lazs, sure feel free to join me. Be aware; I am not a very good pilot, but that shouldn't count since all I want to do is demonstrate that it takes a number of hits from close range to down a fighter, right?
Well, provided I get near one (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
<S!>
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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Flying observer isn't going to work. Latency effects are going to make it so that you can follow the maneuvers but the shooting will be totally goofy.
Hooligan
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I've thought this over,,, "Thinking" removing the range icon, you ment removing the whole icon itself. I wouldn't like this , because the range icon gives back for the lack of depth perception on a flat screen. Then i closed my eyes and thought about the icons some more. And Although i like the game atmosphere more than a realistic atmosphere, I wouldn't mind trying out the game with just the range icon gone.
I like the F4 in the game, it should stay, I rarely fly it , but i do take advantage of it's Ground assualt capacities. My kill death against the Hog is about 1 to 1, mostly they jump me when i am already engaged ( but isn't that the way they are supposed to be flown?)I can't Blame the plane here, If i ever see a slow and low Hog it's pork dinner tonite. Although it is used to HO alot, oh well i HO in my niki also and win most of those. The Hog isn't that much of an "uber" plane or it's cannons ( to be more politically correct) If it was, the sky would be littered with them, and that is NOT the case. Flown right it's and Awsome plane ( it was ) flown wrong, it makes a fast coffin, Just like any other plane, no more, no less. You just need to learn All the planesets modeling , and know their weaknesses and strenghts, You don't turn fight in a pony against a spit, do you?
I say UP the tank strenght against 50's 20mm etc. leave it alone for Bombs, and other tank shells.
As far as the terrain,,,, Hmm my thoughts i HAVE ALWAYS WANTED, In here and a few other syms....
I like the new terrain , but miss the old one , where you where forced to fight in the canyons and valleys ( this eliminated alot of the gettng jumped while you were engaged.)
I took a snapshot and redid a small sector, i added train bridges and a few other obsticles for using as some real precistion fighting.... How do you post the picture here?
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Keep the F4U-C. BUT the same thing was happening in Warbirds as is happening in AH. The solution was to switch to a rolling plane set. I want to see other planes that were rare and lethal(the TA152,Do335,FW 190D,ME410,P-47(all with optional armaments, too!). But you have to be careful what planes you release into a main arena with early war planes you want people to experience and fly. The F4U-C was probably released too early(before numbers of players(skilled players,too) were high enough for a rolling plane set ,or other planes that would have equal firepower and ability were released with enough variety to compete equally with a range of differently skilled pilots. The early war planes would still be "ass-out" in one arena. Yes only HTC can decide when they have the numbers to create seperate arenas for late war planes(so you don't have to wait for weeks to fly your favorite),or go to a rolling plane set. I don't want to wait three weeks to fly my favorite plane. But, I flew many planes that I couldn't fly(and live long) in the main arena because of the rolling plane set.How do you think the A6 Zero coming out is going to fair in this late war atmosphere. Who will want(refering to newer pilots)to fly it more than once when any stray round sends you into "zippo" mode. Newer pilots who lack the skill to survive in a favored plane are going to go to the plane that they perceive as "Uber" whether it is true or not.I dont want to fly against one type of plane all of the time. Without new players your game is gone and with it your "I'm the man" position.
The solution is to make a smaller arena with all of the planes in it. And an arena with a rolling plane set.This would alleviate the need for an historical arena until the numbers are up. That way every plane can be experienced in a more equitable environment. The historically minded people are satisfied. And everyone should have what they want. Lets not beat around the bush. I like AH. But without capitalizing on its early release and getting its player numbers up quickly it is going to be hurt by WW2 online. AH can ill afford any kind of strife within its player community. We all want to have fun. It is not easy to balance an online game. Be part of a solution people. Not part of a battle that only hurts the fun your going to have by posturing (with your ego in hand) and taking a stand at a point in a sims life when it is still not completely developed. The strides made in such a short time are too easily forgotten by people who play alot. Six months is not a long time. I am ussually polite and dont cause problems over things I do in a "game". It is a game. I get very pissed by "people or children more likely",talking toejam about someone when they have the anonymity of thousands of miles of fiber optic lines to feel secure. Flaming someone for puttimg up an honest opinion about a "game" issue is as cowardly as releasing a virus. Wait until a convention, then rear up on your pissed soaked hind legs look them in the eye and talk your toejam. IMHO Berserkr
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I loved the 1c when if first came out, but I realy thought the novelty would burn out by now. Those cannon just plane SUCK ARSE. and I couldn't tell you when the last time I saw a f4u-1d was. Hmm thousands of 1d's made and 200 1c's, yet all we see in the air is 1c's.
I don't like to remove planes either, but I look at it like this..... I wouldn't want to lose any part/parts of my body, but if I had a tumor I'd get it cut out QUICK. The f4u-1c to me is a big hairy malignant tumor and is KILLING this game for me. I hope they get rid of it and fast (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
I also hope some people show up in the SEA tonight so I don't have to fly alone (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
udie
PS. Sifter,
Oh buddy oh squaddie oh pal of mine, the best wingman ever known to man...... You ever heard of paragraphs? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/rolleyes.gif)
[This message has been edited by Udie (edited 05-15-2000).]
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Please do not remove it. That's how I warm up everynite for gunnery practice in my LaV....The C makes a perfect drone (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
[This message has been edited by Cleaner (edited 05-15-2000).]
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Please look at the modeling of the guns do not remove the plane. A squadmate has proved these are laser cannons he has taken out fighter hangers with 2 passes with the guns. I asked him to send the movie to Hitech. Hope he does it
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Originally posted by leonid:
Okay, I despise the F4U-1C of all aircraft in AH, but I don't think its capabilities are far from reality, or the truth. Below, is a list of various aircraft in AH followed by their armament's salvo weight, which is total projectile mass per second:[list=1]
- Fw 190A-8 (w/115g MG151), 6.71kg/sec
- F4U-1C, 6.50kg/sec
- Fw 190A-8 (w/92g MG151), 5.57kg/sec
- Spit IX, 4.46kg/sec
- P-38L, 4.05kg/sec
- F4U-1D, 3.64kg/sec
- Spit V, 3.46kg/sec
- C.205 (w/92g MG151), 3.12kg/sec
- La-5FN, 2.56kg/sec
- Bf 109G-6 (w/115g MG151), 2.46kg/sec
- Bf 109G-6 (w/92g MG151), 2.17kg/sec[/list=a]
[/B]
But F4u-C has unbelievable flying characterics, where FW190A-8 is more like elephant compared to F4u...
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Just wait for Zeke to come *grins*
That will be a REAL disturbance in good fights (though, I think that N1K2 still stays as that most stupidest plane of all, because its fast and turns good)
Now that thing will catch you up cold when going slow.
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It is easy to see from this post that the loudest protest come from people that want the german plane set to have the best weapons/ammo or something. It makes me wonder why I can fly a 109g10 or a 205 and
not even worry about a f4u nearby (unless
it's high)and some people seem to think it's
ruining the game. I'm not that good at the
game. I spend most of my AH time in a F4u and know it's limits (which are easy, I repeat, EASY to outfly in most planes)so this
whole discussion is very confussing to me.
The most exiciting thing in this game for me is to zoom in at 550, line up a shot (this
isn't an easy thing to do either, you fw pilots should know this too) and blast a plane.
1 ping kills??? You guys just aren't paying attention or something. I've been 1 ping dead by every plane in here, even gunners on bombers. So this point is no point at all. Even the 303s on the spit thru the cockpit will kill you fast.
I'll keep flying my beloved Big Blue as long as it's here. It was, and is the best BnZ in the game. (well P51 maybe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) And if you LW types want to strafe my chute for it? Well that just shows your poor character.
Keep the Big Blue and the talons of Death!
(don't forget that the 20mm work on chutes too, if you guys start this, IT will ruin the game, not f4u1c)
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Originally posted by Nemo:
It is easy to see from this post that the loudest protest come from people that want the german plane set to have the best weapons/ammo or something. It makes me wonder why I can fly a 109g10 or a 205 and
not even worry about a f4u nearby (unless
it's high)and some people seem to think it's
ruining the game. I'm not that good at the
game. I spend most of my AH time in a F4u and know it's limits (which are easy, I repeat, EASY to outfly in most planes)so this
whole discussion is very confussing to me.
The most exiciting thing in this game for me is to zoom in at 550, line up a shot (this
isn't an easy thing to do either, you fw pilots should know this too) and blast a plane.
1 ping kills??? You guys just aren't paying attention or something. I've been 1 ping dead by every plane in here, even gunners on bombers. So this point is no point at all. Even the 303s on the spit thru the cockpit will kill you fast.
I'll keep flying my beloved Big Blue as long as it's here. It was, and is the best BnZ in the game. (well P51 maybe (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) And if you LW types want to strafe my chute for it? Well that just shows your poor character.
Keep the Big Blue and the talons of Death!
(don't forget that the 20mm work on chutes too, if you guys start this, IT will ruin the game, not f4u1c)
Nemo, a snapshot of a 109 (20mm,not 30) wont kill you with one ping. A 190 can make you some damage with one ping, but 98% times wont kill you.
A snapshot of a f4uc will break your tail, destroy a wing or kill an engine nearly 75% times. If you ever hear a ping from a F4U you can be sure that you are half dead.
I dont hear a single whine about typhoons, tho. Why?...because, say what you say, Nemo, F4U is a deadly plane by itself. It is like Fw190...in fact is better fighter than Fw190 in all except acceleration (and not by a far difference). Typhoon is bassicaly a pig.
So dont come and say that F4U isnt a good plane. Fw190 is feared althoug is a pig. F4U is way better and has turbolasers.If I'd given the choice to fly a 109G10 with 600 30mm rounds with hispano ballistics, or 60 Hispano 20mm with Mk108 ballistics I'd always fly Hispano 20mm (even with 30mm ballistics,yes). That round packs an unrealistic punch.
Tune down the damned rocket launchers ,fer god's sake!!! Hangars need 3000lbs of bombs and they are destroyed in 2 passes of CannonHawg!!!!
Or I'll quit (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif) (hehehe)
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Don't remove it.
Tweak the guns down some. IMHO the cannons are the C model are the absolute worst thing about Aces High. Complete game imbalance for a plane that barely did anything in the war.
Tone down the guns and let the Quakers have a real challenge. Ohh wait I wasn't supposed to call anyone names.. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
Mox
The Wrecking Crew
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Originally posted by Nemo:
It is easy to see from this post that the loudest protest come from people that want the german plane set to have the best weapons/ammo or something.
Nice try on trying to bring that rubbish from AGW over here (Lazs your best friend?) but most of the LW squadrons here fly ALL planes in the set, exception being scenario's.
Simple fact is as soon as the F4U-1C was implemented, there were crys of foul on the guns, and HTC has detected something funny with them.
------------------
Ripsnort(-rip1-)
~GeschwaderKommodore~I./JG2~Richthofen~[/i]
CLICK>> JG2 INFORMATION (http://Ripsnort60.tripod.com/JG2inquirer.html)
Panzer Group Afrika~15th Panzer Division~[/i]
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/ripsnort.jpg)
Too often, we lose sight of life's simple pleasures. Remember, when
someone annoys you it takes 42 muscles in your face to frown, BUT, it
only takes 4 muscles to extend your arm, grasp the joystick button,
and shoot the sucker down!
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Can we just remove Torque?
(Just kidding)
I really hate seeing thousands of 400mph blue streaks, and million of 20mm tracers wizzing everywhere.
Any solution that reduces the # of 1C's works well for me.
eskimo
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You guys.......
Last night I signed on and rook 6 was under attack. Three (not 1,2, but 3) f4u's were right over the field just out of the ack guarding for a bomber that was coming. I hopped in a 205 and came up and stayed in the ack for a minute. One of my fellow rooks went charging in and the f4u's jumped him. I went out and got on 1's 6 and he was down in just 3 seconds, 2 short bursts from my 205. One of the other f4's turned quickly when he saw me come in so I pulled up and over, pointed straight down and aimed right for the f4's cockpit...blam...dead f4u. Now for the last 1. He pulled around and was coming for me ho. At distance 1.1 (did you read that right, yes 1.1, I'll say it again 1100) I shot a short burst, center mass, then pulled hard out of the way of the coming cannon shells. I heard a ping or 2 then looked behind me for the view of the f4 smoking and falling to earth. Then I got lucky, right in front of me was a 205 hanging on it's prop after my fellow rook. One short burst and Shamus was dead, just a bonus. 4 Kills for Nemo. Then the bishop swarm came in so I went to rook 9 and grabbed my trusty f4u1c so I could maybe dive in and clear the cap. I hauled bellybutton and got to maybe 10k and dove in, a quick pass on a b17 and I was dead (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) So I guess the 205 is really the quake bird (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (all this really happened. 5/31/00 around 10pm cst just ask shamus, he must have been coming in while I was on the f4u's and saw the whole thing)(as of 12pm we still had 6 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) )
These complaints amount to nothing but whining. I'll repeat again. The f4u is easy to kill. If you don't think so, instead of constant complaining, saying that you'll shoot chutes of f4u pilots (this comment came from a Hristos who has no problem out flying any plane, very strange that)or that your going to quit. Why not get some training or something. Because this is a fact, I'm not good at flying at all and I have no problems against an f4u, I just aim well I guess. I don't know.
And for you lw types. You'll get a decent fw to fly soon so I asume that this discussion will come to an end then, plane envy can be a bad thing. And for you turn and burn, love of the dog fight types that hate it when a f4u comes burning in and blast you. Then you'll have the fw to complain about. Because we all know what a fw is good for.... (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) It's all part of the game really.
Lazercannons???? If they were lasers, I wouldn't have to lead a shot (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
And whom ever made the comment about some planes not getting a 1 ping kill must not know that shots to the cockpit/pilot are modeled. If you aim at the cockpit/gunner position thats maned and hit it with 1 single 303 from a spitfire, the whole plane will explode because the pilot/gunner is dead, or they will be wounded in the least. So why complain? Just aim better or get out of the way, duck your head, hide, or something. Your f4u complaints seem.....can't come up with a good word......hmmmmmm...petty...w hinning....unfounded.....base less......lame.....unbelievab le....you guys come up with some others...
Keep the f4u1c!! (2nd vote from me I know, does it count? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) ) (don't forget lw types, a good fw is coming soon (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) then I'll fly a p51 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/tongue.gif) )
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wow dufus kills some hogcs in the only position that they are vunerable and suddenly the opinions of 50 men are pointless whines.
stuff it you bellybutton
the plane is still overmodeled ( turning ability slow and death rays)the thing unbalances the arena and has since day one.
turn on a hog arena and no hog arena and see where the croud goes.
(if they were so damb great why didnt they make more of um?)
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count them toad, not even close to 50
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Nemo, I was the other Rook.
The F4U's didn't get me. I saw them, and as I always do with F4Us, I avoided them. The B-17 they were escorting got me (for the 2nd time (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif), I'd taken a P-38 from A1 earlier and been shot down by that bomber). I have never been killed by an F4U AFAIK, because I refuse to play with them and I rubber neck constantly to keep my SA up.
I also counted 4 F4Us ove A6, there was one high up and then 3 more escorting the B-17, so of the 5 enemy aircraft I saw last night, 4 were F4Us.
Sisu
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But wait. Maybe I'm missing something here. In my confussion of why this is even a topic, I'm ignoring the points made by people on the historical aspects of the f4u1c. Is that what this is all about?? Only 200 saw action so why have it?? Well nothing much else is historical in the main arena anyway. P38's fighting f4u's etc. But I can see that point....I guess. Everyone has there point of reference of why they like online flight sims. There own enjoyment factor I'll call it. Mine should be obvious, I enjoy the kill. Maybe I am a "quaker".
I watched a gunfilm on Torques webpage. F4u vs 109. It was beautiful, especially if you turn on the trails. 2 good pilots there, no doubt. I couldn't have managed my e in that fight. I would have been dead quick. That's not for me at all I know, without some more training anyway. But I can fly and shoot and enjoy the main arena the way it is now. Lot's of different things to do and think about. "Some day" (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif) we'll have more arena's and different gameplay so everyone will have something they like. So in the meantime, we'll have to live with it the way it is. So for anyone (towd) that can't see beyond that,and can only see what they want and need, and can only call names and such. I can easily do the same, your an idiot.
So flame me, flame the f4u1c, flame the game, flame htc, it doesn't really matter in the whole scheme of things. Just be patient.
I completly forgot that I hate message boards....I'll stop my ranting in this post now (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif) (i can hear the cheer go up already)
Towd....try to find a little happiness today...you'll be better of in the long run (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
OOps, I just couln't help it, I had to add something....Towd..f4u overmodled in the turns???? you must not have flown it at all in this game......
[This message has been edited by Nemo (edited 06-01-2000).]
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RAM, I can kill all 9 ack at a small airfield and then add in a hangar with two passes with the 190, you want those guns turned down too? It's actually much easier taking out ground targets with the 190, aside from the initial dive, because it climbs back up much faster.
Don't worry though, I don't want to remove the 190 (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/wink.gif)
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Fatty
Fat Drunk Bastards (http://fdb.50megs.com)
"Never before in the field of human conflict was so little owed to so few that weighed and drank so much."
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Nemo your right. You should stay off of message boards.
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"Stupids are like flies. they are everywere, but are easy to kill"
RAM
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Keep the plane. Tone down the guns is all.
Crazy plane. Couple of hits and ya blow up.
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Spike
Let's Flyyyyyyyyy
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I seem to be able to an extreme amount of damage when strafing hangers in a F4U-1C. I don't know if the Typhoons cannons are modeled differently than the 1C's, but it seems so. I can easily strafe down Fhangers with the 1C, but takes several more passes and more time/ammo from a Typhoon.
My vote: Keep the F4U-1C, but revisit the cannon lethality of the plane. Something is definitely amiss there.
Terror
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Remove it until there are enough Newewes to populate an historical arena and a main arena then put it back in main for the quakers.
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When did they put this thing in here and WTF is it for?
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DONT TAKE IT AWAY PLEASE!!!!
its good...
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6 total post and yer already punting topics 6 year old...
Yawn....
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why remove it, remove the nik then. F4u1c is a great attack aircraft, i really dont like it air to air because u can feel the extra wieght the guns give u. Whats the problem with out, there arent many around for it to be a major problem, and its perked. What happen u dont wait anythin to competet with the niks and la7, give me a break.
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I looked into this a while ago - I do believe that the hispano Mk.IIs on the C-Hogs & Spits are a bit more lethal than they should be, and the MG-151s are a bit less lethal.
See this link:Cannon ROF Testing (http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=166056)
The C-Hog is not all that uber - it can be bested by a number of rides. Rather than lose the C-Hog, I'd rather the cannons be fixed across the board.
EagleDNY
$.02
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OMG. Please, close this thread, I thought it was something new and peritinent. I popped on as it was a new post, lo and behold, It outdates AH2.
We have enough trouble with the current whines.
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Originally posted by Citabria
keep it!!
take nothing away!!
add add add!
response: I concurr!
f4u's are the easiest kills in the game
response: Laughable!
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 05-13-2000).]
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Originally posted by AceGec3D
DONT TAKE IT AWAY PLEASE!!!!
its good...
You should be banned for bumping a 6 year old thread
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Originally posted by AceGec3D
DONT TAKE IT AWAY PLEASE!!!!
its good...
Are you a shade/troll?
Time to get the pointed sticks
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Typhoon is bassicaly a pig.
I guess you never encountered DmdCOACH!
EDIT: ARGH! sucked into an ancient thread again! I feel so violated! Nevertheless, my admiration for COACH's skills is just as strong. I swear that guy lived in the Typhoon... or else he was an adept at the black arts. From the deck to 25k, there was (and is) no one like him in that plane.
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omg, i just noticed the date on this thread, who was the genius that brought this back??? they need to remove him.
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IN before the Lock.
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a 6 years old thread has been resurected!
AceGec3D is the true messiah!
:rofl
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While everyone is entitled to their opinion, since it was asked for, I will list mine too. :D
I really don't see what the fuss over the F4U-1C is about:confused: Yes, it has a strong weapon load. But so does the Spit XIV (4 cannon uber plane, I think is the term being tossed around). Or for that matter, the 262 has very big cannons that do a lot of damage for few hits. And the ME163B... 2 Cannons, but WOW what a punch they pack. What do all of these planes have in common? They are perked! They are perked because they do have a slight advantage in terms of speed and punch. But I don't see anyone complaining to have those removed.
I pull the C-Hog out of the hanger every once in a great while, but I don't see where it gives me any huge advantage. I have faced the C-Hog and shot it down same as any other F4. Makes no difference to me -- every plane has it advantages and weaknesses. The key is to pit your advantage against their weakness.
If the point of this thread was that the C-Hog shot you down several times so it must be unfair, then I say remove the LA-7. Or better yet, remove the field guns and ship guns because they shoot me down more than anything else in the game. :rolleyes: :lol
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AceGec3D sir, by all means use that search function. Look up old interesting posts from 5 years ago, really, please do.
Just do us ALL one big favor, once you found & read it. Just remember we read it 5 years ao. So Please don't punt it. Leave it lay where you found it.
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Originally posted by StSanta
My main two arguments is the fantastico guns of the C, the fact that flight models are almost identical and then that regulars are planning to leave.
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
[This message has been edited by StSanta (edited 05-13-2000).]
eh? the Chog has been around alot longer than most regulars i dont see why they would decide to leave now.. Maybe they're just mad then Chog can out HO their LaLa's?
:noid
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lol tw9, where u hiding at these days?