Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: scottydawg on November 26, 2006, 10:34:08 AM
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Lately the 'bomb then auger (or .ef)' has been happening quite a lot, even in the non-LW arenas. I remember that there was some discussion about trying to make the damage from these types of attacks less. Was there any resolution to it? I hope we can figure out something because it's pretty much 'gaming the game' and it sucks.
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It's been brought up many many many times before w/ a variety of ideas on how to "fix" the issue. I'm not sure if HT has commented on any of them or not. At one point the idea was raised about limiting bomb release to AoA to the horizon, I do seem to remember something about what you mentioned. I'm sure if you do a search on dive bombing lancs or something akin to that you could find enough threads to eat up a good chunk of your day. Kind of annoying behavior if you ask me but until a suitable solution comes along I suppose we're just going to have to make do as is.
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The perked ord system will fix all bombing issues next patch :t
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Originally posted by kamilyun
The perked ord system will fix all bombing issues next patch :t
Don't get your hopes up to high. :) All I have seen on the Perked ord system from Pyro was concerning the better cannon loads on the fighters and such.. I have seen nothing posted on this system for bombers. And even if they did I don't think it would effect me much. :D ;)
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Originally posted by Flayed1
Don't get your hopes up to high. :) All I have seen on the Perked ord system from Pyro was concerning the better cannon loads on the fighters and such.. I have seen nothing posted on this system for bombers. And even if they did I don't think it would effect me much. :D ;)
Is this confession that your a pork and auger dweeb?
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Originally posted by kamilyun
The perked ord system will fix all bombing issues next patch :t
Only way would be to perk everything. Something I'd be surprised as hell to see HTC do. Even if you perked 1000lb bombs on fighters for example, it wouldn't stop the divebombing 4 engine bombers, personally I wouldn't mind seeing some of the heavier loads on fighters perked, might see an increase in use of the light bombers we have in the planeset, like the TBM, and SBD for example. But that is a another can of worms all together. To stop the auger dweebs I think we need some in game mechanics to make it more difficult or impossible to do combined with teaching people who want to bomb how to bomb "correctly" something that is much more accurate with a little practice. Sure some people don't want to learn how to do it properly and there's not much other we can do about that, other than place actual game play resrtictions. Still there will be others that if a few people sat down and showed them how to bomb and actually hit something we could probably put a dent in the pork and auger gameplay.
New people are always encouraged to go to the TA and get with a trainer to learn how to dogfight.. why can't we help them learn how to bomb too?
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I'd suggest the CorkyJr solution. Skip the bomb and just auger. Works to perfection every time and no one gets hurt :)
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Is this confession that your a pork and auger dweeb?
Ummm I have to say and most people that know me in game know that I am about as far from a pork and auger dweeb as you can possibly get lol..
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You could try perking every bomber exept one (like the B5N?) Perk them alot, and then see how many people start actually trying to survive to RTB.
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Originally posted by Clifra Jones
Is this confession that your a pork and auger dweeb?
He definitely isn't. I should know. In real life we are brothers.
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many threads have been posted on this topic. Alot of suggestions over the years have been suggested. anything been done about it ?....sweet F A .
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Originally posted by LYNX
many threads have been posted on this topic. Alot of suggestions over the years have been suggested. anything been done about it ?
Unfortunately no.
Buffs in a dive shouldn't be able to deliver ordinance at all (except for JU88...those make surprisingly good dive bombers...even have dive brakes!). How hard would it be to make bombs only drop from the bombadier's position in B17's, Lancs and -24's? That would ensure level flight...although you could be quick enough to game it and jump from pilot to F6 and instantly drop the ord. Hmm...but not if there was an angle limiter...
B-26 used special retarded bombs (as in extra drag, not the short bus...) for low-level bombing. I'd love[/b] to see these as perked ordinance~!!
Large bombs should have a much higher minimum arming distance. Can anyone find out how far they'd have to fall in order for the spinner to fuse the bomb for detonation? A couple hundred feet from drop to boom seems way too little for crew safety...
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Ok I need a glossary or something:o Please define what Pork and Auger mean in this game. I can't figure it out but it can't be good
gusman44
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Originally posted by gusman
Ok I need a glossary or something:o Please define what Pork and Auger mean in this game. I can't figure it out but it can't be good
gusman44
If you're serious... :)
"Often" people who want to destroy barracks or CVs will just up some sort of bomber or bomb-laden attack plane, fly to the target and dive in with no plan of pulling out after they drop bombs. Sometimes it's just a desperate gamey move b/c there's no penalty for dying. Other times it's trully a lack of skill or not anticipating control surface lock up.
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Originally posted by Warspawn
Large bombs should have a much higher minimum arming distance. Can anyone find out how far they'd have to fall in order for the spinner to fuse the bomb for detonation? A couple hundred feet from drop to boom seems way too little for crew safety...
I believe, (but I could be mistaken), that the bombs have to travel 1,000' from point of release at present.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
I'd suggest the CorkyJr solution. Skip the bomb and just auger. Works to perfection every time and no one gets hurt :)
You always were a trendsetter. :)
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Thanks Kamilyun, I'm serious.
So Auger would be this games's version of a Kamikaze run. No thought is taken about completeing a good bomb run and returning and landing whole. That's not really in the spirit of the game. :eek:
What is Pork?
Thanks for being patient.
gusman44
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pork = blow up. Usually the phrase "pork n auger" means suicidal attacks on strategic objects on the field (troop barracks, ammo bunkers, radar). It's the AH equivalent of kamikaze attacks.
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Originally posted by Warspawn
Buffs in a dive shouldn't be able to deliver ordinance at all (except for JU88...those make surprisingly good dive bombers...even have dive brakes!). How hard would it be to make bombs only drop from the bombadier's position in B17's, Lancs and -24's? That would ensure level flight...although you could be quick enough to game it and jump from pilot to F6 and instantly drop the ord. Hmm...but not if there was an angle limiter...
I would love something like this. I hate the lame bellybutton bomber abuse going on.
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I do it from time to time. But I make sure any enemy have a crack at me before I do it. The long drive home is sometimes too much to bear.
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Why cant the wings be modeled to snap/break off at a preset AOA or speed?
:confused:
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i am in full agreement that heavy buffs should not be able to dive bomb.
i will sometimes ditch my buffs after ords are gone but NEVER if an ememy
is pursuing or in icon range. i do not apologise for sometimes ditching if no enemy is around because frankly after spending 15 min getting to target i hardly feel like putting in another 15 min to RTB.
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I caught some buffs headed to a factory, I got one of them right before he dropped. He switched to other one, dropped, then bailed. lol I got two proxies and one kill. I see people do this drop and auger crap constantly. I believe that no "one" player should be able to pilot three planes. There are enough people in game now to limit one bomber plane per person!
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I agree completely with the angle of release limiter. Heavy bombers (especially in formation) should not have the ability to pinpoint bomb.
However, I believe the original thought was in regard to "pork and auger" which refers less to the "dive bombing buffs" (as noted a problem in the game play) and more to the "bomb and bail" types.
The "pork and auger" manuever, as I understand it, is when a player ups a set of bombers, flys over the target (usually low or med alt.), drops ordinance on target (hangers, radar, ord, barracks, etc.) then ejects rather than flying home. This is particularly annoying to the defenders who move to engage only to get close and miss the satisfaction of a potential fun battle (the whole point of the game). The part I don't understand about this practice.... if you bail out and auger the planes, you are going to "die" anyway. So why not stay and fight? You still may die, but you may at least take one or two with you.
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What about this
If you bail or crash the data for the sortie is not logged
IE If ya dump a load on a city and bail or crash then none of what you did is counted towards your Rank and Zero perks....
If you want it counted then stay alive...
I think that this should also be for fighter's
Might reduce the HOing
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Actually my original post had nothing to do with dive bombing... just the clowns that make their run and then tower out. I think that towering out within 5 minutes of a run should negate the damage done on that run. Just IMHO.
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Oh, you mean Fortressing.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Oh, you mean Fortressing.
:rofl
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Originally posted by scottydawg
Actually my original post had nothing to do with dive bombing... just the clowns that make their run and then tower out. I think that towering out within 5 minutes of a run should negate the damage done on that run. Just IMHO.
Well, then they would wait 5 mins 10 secs before towering out.
Not everyone plays this game for realism...
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Oh, you mean Fortressing.
:rofl :aok
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Originally posted by Flayed1
Ummm I have to say and most people that know me in game know that I am about as far from a pork and auger dweeb as you can possibly get lol..
Yeah, I know Flayed, just jerkin your chain!
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Currently there is no real hard pressing reason for buff drivers to land their birds after a run.
Yes, new version gives the use of bombers on towns and fields to help take field more importance for some. 3 or 4 flights of buffs can finish a town in one pass easliy enough..... but why land them... for the perks?
:rofl
Most serious buff drivers have well over 1,000 buff perks already, some many thousands. Arado not all that great a ride to spend them on, nor can I see spending them on Lancs in EW (not that I like Lancs to begin with, and flights of 3 Arados are my favorite ship killers...only reason I fly them at all....and I still usually land them).
You give buff drivers a plane or two worth spending perks on, or the ability to buy up to an additional 3 drones for their formations (3 across, 2 deep), they'll start landing their planes again.
You put in a perkable A-26 Invader, or He-177, buff drivers will want to land their bomb runs.
You perk the heavy load out for a Lanc ... 10,000kg of ord maximum load, compared to the more typical 6,400kg ord load they carry in-game. Or add the Tall Boy or Grand Slam as perked options, you'll see more bombers landed. B-17's also had a heavier maximum load than what we see in-game.
Or allow buff perks to be transfered to vehicles or fighters perks, you may see more buffs landed.
Or you can perk all drones, nerf the limited buff planeset we have already, and good luck getting any buff drivers to help you take a town or field down in the first place. A lot of us would walk away from buffs altogether at that point. Pure furballers would like that option though.
Buff drivers need either better perked rides, more perked drones to have an serious impact, larger perked ord load options, or able to use buff perks elsewere if you want to see them stop dive buffing and bailing after they drop ord. Simple self gratification.
Personally, I usually try to land all my rides. Especially when I've a couple kills to land with buffs. But, lately, I've been avoiding buffs. Not worth the effort to take them up any more. Used to like sub-orbital strat perk runs to lure up fighters.... but with all the troop barracks now, that is no longer a viable ops plan any more. Teamwork lacking on a strategic level most nights in the arenas to coordinate effectively to bother as well. What is the point?
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Originally posted by tedrbr
You give buff drivers a plane or two worth spending perks on, or the ability to buy up to an additional 3 drones for their formations (3 across, 2 deep), they'll start landing their planes again.
This is probably the most reasoned post I can remember ever seeing from a buff driver. There's good stuff in here, that might keep this group of people in the game as something more than greifers. Especially in combination with the suggetions in some of the strat threads I've seen.
But it raises a collateral question: Why in the world would anyone ever want to pay EXTRA for a Heinkel 177? Just curious.
- oldman
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Well, He-177 would not be my first choice, the Invader would be, but hard to list perk-worthy bombers and heavy attack planes for use in AHII:
A-26 Invader, Mosquito B.Mk XVI, He-177, B-29.... and that's pretty much it for buffs worth perks. Several prototypes sure, but nothing really actually fielded works.
Certainly nothing the Japanese, Italians, or Russians fielded are perk worthy.
The He-177 Greif is about as heavy a LufWobble bomber that got deployed in any numbers. Late model He-177's didn't burn as easily, or readily, as the early Zippo version. Carries more than a B-24 (6,000 kg internal, plus 1,200kg on the wings), at nearly the same speed (295 to 350 mph depending on source).
And it's a heavy bomber actually designed for dive bombing (which is why it had so many problems in the first place). But even as a perk buff, is would be a cheap one..... or it would not get used much. Invader would cost more perks than a Greif would for certain, yet another good reason to go with the A-26 --- you can justify a higher perk cost for them than an He-177.
The Hs293 guided missiles ahd FX 1400 guided bombs are the real show stopper with the He-177 inclusion in AH-II, IMHO, similar reason we won't see the B25 (CV launches) and B-29 (nookes) --- too many IwantIwant postings.
edit -- actually, since we'd want to reduce bomb and bail, give buff drivers a reason to land em for perks, and want them to spend a decent amount of perks for the effort, the two buffs I list actually worth sizable perk costs are the Invader and Superfortress..... and we are not getting the Superfortress .... so to meet the needs with a new buff, it almost has to be the Invader.
Otherwise, we are back to larger ord loads for current buffs (buff loads now modeled after "typical" WWII loads, but they were capable or heavier load outs, Lanc and B-17 in particular), more perk-purchase drones (up to 3 more), or transfering perks to GV and Fighter use.
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As for the Heinkel, do you think they would model the engine flameouts? ;)
I'd say put some medium bombers in like the B 25 and HE 111... then perk the heavies and perk formations.
Then again, what the heck do I know.
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Originally posted by scottydawg
As for the Heinkel, do you think they would model the engine flameouts? ;)
I'd say put some medium bombers in like the B 25 and HE 111... then perk the heavies and perk formations.
So, you are (seriously?) saying we put in a bunch of early era, underperforming buffs, Spanish War type stuff, then NERF the existing buff set by using perks for all drones and heavy bombers?
Result: you will just have buff drivers go on to other things. Maybe other games. What would be the point of (trying to) running single He-111's, Bostons, Ki-67's, and A-20's to get enough perks to fly single (or maybe formations of) B-24's, B-17's, Ju-88's, and Lancs which we can do for free now (in most arenas)?
That will solve bomb and bail alright.... might be a bit hard to even FIND a buff over the battlefield under those circumstances.
Or put another way; perk the La-7, Spit XVI, P-38L, Pony-D, and Niki and see the fitr pilots howl en mass.
The He-111 may look better than other German planes, but it was outdated by 1941. A decent plane for EW and senerio play, but totaly outclassed in LW where most people fly in the arenas.
As to He-177 flam outs... very common in early versions, but change of engine solved most of the self immolation problem. As I stated, very few perk worthy bombers that can be added to the game as things stand.My vote would be for either the A-26 Invader, perk for maximum ord loads (or Long Tom, or Grand Slam), or allow perk purchase of up to an additional 3 drones, if possible problems in turrent fire can be overcome.
I would not mind seeing an expanded planeset of buffs expecially from Russian, German, British, and Japanese (ie non-American) air forces, it's just I do not see any of them worth spending perks on, and I think buff drivers need something other than the Arado that is worth the use of perkies, before adding other buffs to the plane set. I was after all trying to answer the original bomb and bail thread.
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Problem: Buff drivers who bomb and bail (or auger).
Reasons: No real incentive to return to base and land. Perkies can only be used on Ar234, which many buff drivers don't care to fly. With no real need for perks, no reason to land the buffs.
Possible Solutions:
Solution #1 - Go Better: Add perk-worthy bomber planes to the planeset.
Identified bombers that could be perk worthy: A-26 Invader, Mosquito B.Mk XVI, He-177, B-29. A-26 Invader is probably the most perk-worthy that we could actually see in-game (not going to see the B-29, a Skeeter is a Skeeter, and the He-177, though a nice addition to the heavy buff set, and non-American for a change, does not rate a high perk cost to be an effective economy sink for perks in-game).
Suggest that a flight of three A-26 Invaders might cost the same as 1 Me262 would in the arena. LW ride. A sweet attack plane, strafer, bomber interceptor, but not overly dominating in bomber role; and a decent economy sink for buff perks.
The Mosquito B.Mk XVI and He-177 would both be good second choices after an A-26 if you wanted to give 2 new buff rides.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/b/b6/B-26.jpg/250px-B-26.jpg)
Solution #2 - Go Bigger: Perkable Maximum Ord Load Options.
Allow pilots to use perks to load their buffs with the maximum ordance they could carry. Figure a cost per plane of about twice what they can earn from a typical successful mission. Multiple that across three planes in a flight, factor in failed missions, and this will limit how often buff drivers can run with max loadout.
Cons: The heavy loads with these planes on many of the game maps runways will result in overloaded buffs hanging in trees and imbedded into hillsides from failed take offs. Slower to alt. Slower speeds.
In game B-17 carries a maximum of 6,000 lbs (2721kg) of bombs. Normal bomb loads in europe were 4,000-5,000 lbs. Maximum bomb load carried was 8,000 lbs (3628 kg) and the furthest the max load was carried was to to Nienburg. To do this, internal fuel cells in the bomb bays were removed... which for game purposes would limit fuel load to 3/4 of max. ** Unsure code can allow for this **
In game B-24 carried up to 8,000 lbs, which was the historical max carried to Karlsruhe. Theoretical max was 12,800, but this was impractical. Normal loads were 5,000 lbs.
In game Lanc III carries up to 14,000 lbs (6350 kg) of bombs, which was the rated max. B1 Specials could carry the 21 foot (6.4 m) long 12,000 lb (5,448 kg) 'Tallboy' or 25.5 foot (7.77 m) long 22,000 lb (9,979 kg) "Grand Slam" "earthquake" bombs. This required modification of the bomb-bay doors and limited the operational range to 660 miles. *** Could game code correctly model a Tallboy or Gland Slam blast effect?*** Tallboy or Grand Slam would have to be especially expensive,.... and a lone, slow, Lanc will attract all kinds of attention.
In-game Ju-88 can carry 6613 lbs (3,000 kg) which is already more than sources I've read mention for this particular bird.
In-game Ki-67 can carry up to 1760 lbs (800kg) of ord, which is a normal bomb load. Maximum I've found lists 2,359 lbs, and up to 6,000 lbs on those used as Kamakazis.
Solution #3 - Go More: Allow the Purchase of Additional Drones
Allow up to three more drones, to compliment the existing two in a flight. Cost per drone a little less than an Ar234, to limit their use. Set up in a formation 3 across, 2 deep, and offset slightly (and preferable rear group a little lower as well, as was actually done.
Pro: single pilots having ability to wreck serious havoc on towns and strategic targets like cities and factories. Two or three buff pilots working together can be a strong force to be dealt with. Cons:, unsure existing code can handle 3 additional drones, fire control really off for turrents.... will actually be less effective per gun against enemy targets due to convergence. Buff drivers will have to play off-line with salvos and delays to see what actually works well with new, larger formation. A boon of targets to those fitr jokes that are as adept at interception missions and killing buffs as pulling the wings off of flies.
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1164674807_formation.jpg)
No one solution works for everyone, for example; not-all buff drivers going to like a A-26 attack plane. Many buff drivers go with biggests is bestest path, which is why you see many Lancs on low level attacks. Solution #2 and #3 address this group of buff drivers. I would recommend adopting any two of the three solutions mentioned to address the original problem of giving buff drivers a reason to collect and spend perk points in the game. This will reduce the number of bomb and bail runs to those that are purely there to grief and don't care about perks in any case.
Expected result. More bomb runs. More bombers trying to land after their runs. More high altitude bomb runs. More high altitude interceptors used to attack the buffs. Possibly bring strategic goals and targets back into the game on a higher level.
Useful Links used for this posting, but in no way to be considered the definative answer to any of the numbers I used above. Which sources to treat as "canon" are up to HT.
WWII bomb load discussion: forum.12oclockhigh.net/archive/index.php?t-1505.html
Wiki, with two very good graphs showing bomb loads vs distance for B-17, B-24, and Lanc: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maximum_Reported_B-17_&_B-24_Bomb_Loads
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Bomber_Comparison_Excel_Chart.jpg/300px-Bomber_Comparison_Excel_Chart.jpg
Daytime precision bombing over Europe
upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/e/e6/Nighttime_Area_Bombing_by_RAF.jpg/300px-Nighttime_Area_Bombing_by_RAF.jpg
Nighttime area bombing by the RAF
Nice little discussion on the He-177's history.
forum.axishistory.com/viewtopic.php?t=82567&start=30&sid=3d60e00951f9d7556b74761b556de090
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Afternote:
3 pilots each upping 3 additional drones for a total of 18 aircraft would be very close to the 20 plane Bomber Group mentioned in the image. 9 pilots in this mode with 54 aircraft would come very close to an entire 60-plane Bomber Wing.
May lead to more common use of boxes in the arenas. A target rich environment.
As well as being a economic buff perk sink.
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No comments? Observations? The CODE can't do such-and-such from official sources? I'm missing an obvious perkable bomber or ord load out (okay, incediaries I thought of, but don't think they will model that....)? Bombers are uber and they should all be heavily perked, nerfed, and limited to bases far from FT?