Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Fatty on August 26, 2001, 04:00:00 PM
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If you fly planes that are hard to fly because you like the challenge, but then spend your time complaining about being outmatched, then I hate to be the one to break it to you, but you don't like the challenge, you're just another looking for easy kills.
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Whatwuzathesaid? :confused:
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Been listening to channel one, sorry. The most excellent online pilots in the world have been expressing some frustration that the "hardest" plane they can find and fly as a challenge sometimes getting killed.
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He means if you pick a so called "hard to fly plane", it's because you like the challenge of it. Hense, when you inevitably meet the fight with the odds not in your favor, they wouldn't be crying on channel one. Quite the opposite in fact, if it's indeed the challenge they like.
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:D right but sometime awoid some <uber> planes is just like awoid radar locked amram misile on you :D
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Ah, you mean if I fly a 109 F-4 and get wacked by a La7 or some such, I shouldn't whine about it?
Hehe, not I said the cat. :D
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Originally posted by minus:
:D right but sometime awoid some <uber> planes is just like awoid radar locked amram misile on you :D
You can set your watch by it :)
Cobra
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109F4 will 0\/\/n j00
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"deep thoughts by fatty handy" :D
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I find it more satisfying to kill someone while flying a P47, or an A8 because it means I had to put the fight in my terms.. and work harder against an equal opponet who,.. for example.. would be in a Spit or n1k hehe :D
easymode ! lol bleh..
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Originally posted by DeeZCamp:
I find it more satisfying to kill someone while flying a P47, or an A8 because it means I had to put the fight in my terms.. and work harder against an equal opponet who,.. for example.. would be in a Spit or n1k hehe :D
But what if you dictate the terms of an engagement by fighting to the strengths of your plane and yet still lose? Why would it take Spit or N1K pilots any less skill to defeat able P-47 or 190A8 drivers flying their planes to their advantages?
What I mean is... it always takes skill to defeat opponents flying to the strengths of their planes by flying to the strengths of your own, regardless of what the planes happen to be.
-- Todd/DMF
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An N1K2 can kill a 190A8 1v1 no matter how it flies. The 190A8 has no strengths vis-a-vis the N1K2. The Dora, on the other hand, can run from it at will, which makes it a lot easier to kill them. I've got an excellent K/D in the Dora this tour, especially vs spits and n1k2s, because I can run if I get into a bad situation with them. La7s are really the only plane that I don't like to fight in a Dora, but you can get lucky and outrun them maybe half the time.
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The A-8 is still faster than an N1K2, but not by much at AH combat altitudes. The N1K2 holds more of the cards by quite a bit in this confrontation. Acceleration, turn rate and radius, climb and e-retention against the Fw190A-8's roll rate and top speed.
What I dislike is when people fight to the strength of a Spit or N1K2 and then whine when it kills them.
Imagine how you'd all laugh at a N1K2 pilot who was whining after having had his bellybutton handed to him in a turn fight with an A6M5b.
Why should it be any different for the Fw190D-9 pilot who gets his bellybutton handed to him in a turn fight with an N1K2?
I think that most people fly the aircraft they fly because of the way it looks, or a mystique attached to that aircraft captures their imagination. Unfortunately, some of these aircraft are harder to do well in and it frusterates people when they lose to people who are simply flying the easiest aircraft to succeed in. Tne usual targets of abuse are the N1K2-J and Spitfire, but if you fly to the strengths of your Fw190D-9, Typhoon, P-51, Bf109G-10 or La-7 you'll usually win. The Spitfire is a natural fit to the MA style of play and the N1K2-J is a late 1944 aircraft that is also a natural fit to the MA style.
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ah ha - look at your little whiney whine about whiners whiney fatty ;) i scoff at you and your veiled whine-
voluntary dispersion would solve the problem. if people saw these ultraplanes less they wouldn't care so much. hear any chog whines lately? of course not- take a friggin chance in something other than the top 3 planes - good grief you might actually like it!
i think of wwii i think of p38s, 109s,p47s, p51, zekes, yaks, spitfires....i mean who thinks of the n1k when they think of wwii? the 4 japanese guys who flew em that last year probably.
it's a cool marvel of a plane but an arena full of them is wearing people's patience - it won't be appreciated that way and that is a shame in itself.
the plane i fly (the g2)barely has 1,000 kills and the nik had like 13,000 last time i checked. is it wrong to find that fact ironic considering their roles in the real world? there are tons of planes hovering around that 2-3,000 kill mark and then the top planes are way ahead(last i checked it could be different now).
my only whine is that of the huge planeset we are lucky to have, 95% of it falls into that 'challenging' category due to the prowess of a few planes. it's not the planes uberness it's the unimaginative quality of the pilots who flock to them in search of some special edge.
many cool wwii fighters sit abandoned or under-used because people know they are gonna get shredded if they even try. oh, a few guys that stay at 30k ft and their awesome acm yeah yeah blah blah but you know what i mean. i'm talkin about the other 1600 of us.
it gets frustrating but you'll get no whines from me - i'd rather die cursing in a 'challenging' plane than follow the herd and step in that creamo smelling stuff they leave behind. ;)
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Oh, I agree 100% with you Karnak. The P51, Dora, G10, and La7 are all excellent planes in the MA. They can do very well (better than the Spits and N1K2s) because they offer you the ability to run when you need to, whereas the other two don't. I've died in the Dora this tour, but it was always because I did something wrong (like attack a buff :)). If you fly any of the "fast" planes right, you will have an excellent K/D against the Spit and N1K2. For instance- in the Dora this tour, I am 7 and 1 against N1K2. Overall I'm 15 and 2. Against the Spit IX I'm 6 and 1 in the Dora, 13 and 2 overall.
I honestly don't think that the "turning" crowd has any advantage over the "runstang" crowd- because we can run from them, they can run but they'll just die tired :D
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The A5 is still one of the most amusing planes to fly :)
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LOL fatty, so true :)
and Minus... its "AMRAAM"
I worked on them for several years, and there is nothing in AH that comes close :)
[ 08-27-2001: Message edited by: -ammo- ]
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I don't think so Fish. I think quite the opposite, 95% of the planes here are easy to get kills in, the possible exceptions being the c202 and maybe a 109a8 flown in a furball.
Everything in between is people pretending (or believing?) they're flying hard planes and whining about others to try and prove it.
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Depends on how you fly the plane Fatty. The 190A8 isn't much good in any situation, unless you are attacking low level buffs, then it shines.
Calling a plane "hard" or "easy" to get kills in is basically describing how well the plane fits into the MA. An example of an "easy" plane to get kills in is the N1K2 (it sure isn't so popular because of its historical reputation, agreed?). It is probably one of the best accelerators in the game, one of the best climbers in the game(sustained and zoom), one of the best divers in the game (again, sustained and not, but it is better at the beginning), and one of the best turners in the game (behind the Spits and Zero). On top of that it has 4 20mm cannons with a relatively large ammo load. The only negative thing about the plane is it is pretty slow in level flight.
Since most of the combat in Aces High involves turning, diving, climbing, and accelerating, a plane that does well in these areas will do well in the MA, even if its top speed is comparatively low.
On the other end of the "easy" scale are the very fast planes, with the LA7 being on the top. It is the second fastest plane in the game on the deck, which makes it easy to run away from slower airplanes that have gotten in a good position. Furthermore, the La7 easily outturns all the other "fast" planes (dora, P51, Tiffie), and out accelerates them as well. It has a climb rate equal to the 109G10 up to around 7k, and dives well. I guess you could say that the weaknesses of this airplane are its low speed handling (which doesnt come into play very often), and the ammo and fuel load (both of which are fairly small). The La7 is a "easy" plane because you can kill the other fast planes comparitively easily, and run away from the N1K2 and Spits.
In the middle you have planes that I would consider "challenging", if not hard. For me, this category includes most of the U.S.A planes (with the exception of the P51), most of the German planes (with the exception of the 109G10 and the 190D9 [and the G10 is iffy]), the other Japanese planes and the Italian planes.
I consider them "challenging" because when you take off in them you know you are most likely going to meet planes that can A. Outturn you, or B. Outrun you, or C. both plane types together. In my opinion, this makes it harder to be "successful" in those planes. You may disagree with me, and that is fine. All I am doing is explaining my opinion, and possibly clarifying the opinions of others who may agree with me but haven't expressed it this way.
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190A8 is a babe, Fatty's just being a popsicle ;)
Saw
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The whiners fly the "hard" planes so they can always have a good excuse when they get shot down.
The true good guys dont apply, since they rarely get shot down in their plane of choice, or just dont care if they get shot down at all (me)
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The fastest plane in here is a challenge? Heh. And don't put the "other" japanese planes in that category either, I fly them because they are extremely easy.
But don't worry, excuses and explainations for each death will continue unabated, loudly broadcast for everyone to hear before they logoff in a huffy. So let the excuses roll, just know that we know you're not that good, otherwise you wouldn't be filling the text buffer with inaccurate explainations.
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I have been stinking up the MA lately I think my score is in the 1500s and I could care less. I fly the JUG near exlusive. My squaddies rock in the jug and I am trying to better my skills. IMO it is a challenge to fly but that is what I want for my money. For the record I have always hated the NIK and always will. Thats what opinions are for.
Most NIKopters are dweebs but so what. I have been called alt dweeb and stratodick before. Like my Grandfather used to say 'screw em if they cant take a joke'
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As you struggle along to get kills with your 8 .50s...
Heh.
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I suck in everything, perk planes included,so I hold exclusive rights to whine about anything and anybody. :D
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I've said it before on Channel 1 and I'll say it again here... :) This is Pac Man w/wings. Its a VIDEO game... and the more you play the better you'll get... even if your IQ is just above a chimps (mine is barely :) )
xBAT
P.S. Pudding anyone?
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I'd definately say the N1K2 is easier to get kills in than the P47. 8 .50s may be able to do as much damage as 4x20mm, but the Jug still has to bring those guns to bear.
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Furballing only (in which case there's a long list of planes that will hand the n1k it's lunch).
Snapshots? Long shots? If you think the n1k2 is better than 3400 rounds of 8 50s with their high rof, then you've been reading too many conspiracy threads.
If it's turning on the deck then the n1k2 is probably going to get that < 200 yard shot, and likely you'll hear something about ubernik helecopter on prop superclimb nonsense on channel 1.
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We are of course excluding the ufon1k from the "it always takes skill to defeat opponents flying to the strengths of their planes by flying to the strengths of your own, regardless of what the planes happen to be" part right?
I will film almost every fight after 1.08 when I see a n1k. If HTC fixes the drag and puts torque on that thing, ill laugh my bellybutton off when the n1kdweebs meet real physics for once. No more 15g turns losing 10 mph & zoom up after hi E planes to then hang on prop at 80mph while spraying.
imo, anyone flying that thing should be ashamed of himself, its almost like abusing a bug. almost.
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Why not start filming now and show us "...15g turns losing 10 mph & zoom up after hi E planes to then hang on prop at 80mph while spraying..."?
The only people that have to be ashamed are the people who can't stand getting beat and have to make excuses. You'd think they would get used to it.
bowser
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Bowser,
Of course he can't film it now. They don't do that when the camera is on, they're shy. ;)
So, we're just going to have to take his word for it, no matter how many times we've tried to do those things in the N1K2-J and haven't been able to come close. ;)
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Too true, Karnak.
The N1K2-J is indeed a very shy creature when it knows it is being watched. It takes great skill to catch one unawares and film it while it is letting its inner self out on a rampage.
Perhaps someday some Nobel prize winning naturalist will catch a few frames for all ofus to enjoy.
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I don't attribute any magical abilities to the N1K2, but the fact remains that it IS an easy plane to get kills in. Can it turn a really hard 360 and make up ground on you as you pass? No, I've never seen that. Can it outturn every plane except the Spit and Zeke? Yes, in my experience it can. Can it accelerate with a 190D9 and a 109G10? Yes, in my experience it can. Can it dive with a 190D9? Yes, for the first 5 seconds or so, after that the 190 pulls away. Can it climb with a 109G10? It can't quite keep up in a sustained climb, but in my experience the zoom climb is every bit as good.
Can a 190d9 or a 109g10 kill a N1K2? Absolutely. I'm 20 and 3 against them this tour. Do you have to be very, very careful about how you engage them? Yes, you do.
The N1K2 is one of the two most dangerous planes in the game, in my opinion. If you screw up around one, you will be shot down.
People used to argue over who was better when I played the game Team Fortress (for Quake 1). LPBs (those with high speed connections) said that their fast connection was no advantage at all, and that only their "skill" at the game had any impact on how well they did. Most HPB's disagreed with them, and thought that the connection did play a role in how well you performed in the game. I thought that it was a little of both- the players skill was the main determinant, but the connection speed was a big help. I still think that way, after having my cablemodem for a number of years now.
I believe that it is the same sort of thing in Aces High. You have people that say "oh, it is the pilot, not the plane", and you have those that disagree. I tend to believe that the pilot is the chief factor in the outcome of any fight, but you'd have to be a fool to say the plane had no input at all.
As a for instance,lets take pilot A and pilot B, both are of equal skill. One is flying a 109F4 and one is flying a N1K2. The planes are at the same altitude, heading towards eachother, distance is perhaps 6 kilometers. Out of 10 fights, who will win the majority? I personally would say the N1K2, you may disagree.
I realize that conditions in the MA are quite different than the scenario that I've just described, however, I do not feel that it renders my point any less valid. In the MA, if I meet a N1K2, a large factor in the decision whether or not to engage is the type of plane I am in. If I am in a Dora or a P51d, or an La7- sure, I'll take that N1K2 on, and I'll most likely win the fight.
If I'm flying a 190A8 or a 109G2, I know realistically that I am most likely going to end up on the losing end, unless the other pilot is baked. That could be the reason that numbers are so low for the German planes (other than the G10 and D9), the U.S. planes (other than the P51 and F4U), the other Japanese planes, the other Russian planes, and the Italian planes. People have flown those planes and found that they do not stack up well against the current "favorites" in the arena, so they sit unused. Another possible reason is that numbers aren't yet high enough that we show a lot of usage on all the planes we have.
But I honestly don't believe that most people that DON'T fly a N1K2, spit, or LA7 are "whiners in disguise"- I think most of them are either looking for a challenge or wanting to be different.
Again, most of this is pure personal opinion, so feel free to disagree with me.
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But I honestly don't believe that most people that DON'T fly a N1K2, spit, or LA7 are "whiners in disguise"- I think most of them are either looking for a challenge or wanting to be different.
I actually agree with you on that one. Only the ones that feel the need to point out on channel 1 when they are shot down by one (ignoring the fact none of us even know they were shot down) to "set the record straight" are what would fall into the original category I set forth.
Each night there's several hundred people playing. Only a handfull babble on channel one endlessly and pointlessly providing excuses.
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Tac, your just going to go from "burn Nikidweeb burn!" every time you get a kill on one to "Lol, aint a ufo no more!" if they change anything. We can hardly wait.
How you can obsess on 1 topic, for months and months, channel 1 post afer channel one post daily, over and over on one stupid topic is beyond me. Your the only person I squelch everytime I log on, only because you say the same niki cries endlessly.
Either it's some weird fetish/obsession, or your just plain stupid.
What I don't get is your pry great at this game, so you should just adapt accordingly. They don't bother me none.
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Just HO niki's. Simple. Easy. Quick.
The niki IS a UFO. The niki IS a crutch. And because of this 9/10 Niki pilots are not 'skilled'. There are a handful that really do know what to do.
So 9/10 HOs with the Niki are against a guy with crap aim, who tends to have second thoughts about the HO with 4 hispanos blazing at him.
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Just HO typhoons's. Simple. Easy. Quick.
The typhoon IS a UFO. The typhoon IS a crutch. And because of this 9/10 typhoon pilots are not 'skilled'. There are a handful that really do know what to do.
So 9/10 HOs with the typhoon are against a guy with crap aim, who tends to have second thoughts about the HO with 2 HO 5 blazing at him.
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LOL to both of you- I'm not HO'ing anything with 4 cannons :).
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Hey Fatty, try squeezing your bellybutton into the cockpit of a typhoon, fly at standard operational alts for this plane and see how successful you are against N1K2-J's and La7's and I'll be watching lol@U dweebster
N1K2-J pilots = girlie dweebster cowards
remember its a game, gettin killed don't really hurt lessen you got real low self esteem.
Chow :D
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I hate you all. :)
xBAT
P.S. The smiley face is simply anthor indication of my impending implosion.
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Feeling the need to belittle others is frequently a sign of low self esteem. It is often used to try to build ones self up by creating a false sense of superiority in something that both parties are participating in. This kind of juvenile behavior is best observed among children on a play ground where the least socially developed of them use childish name calling to try to make up for their lack of skill.
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I fly what I fly because I like to be different and it fits my style. I do thank some planes provide more "challange" to get kills in. A more indepth knowlege of ACM is often required to be successful in some planes.
The Niki will still be like the Spit in the MA even after the changes. It will be a furballing mofo death-dealer. It will still be heavily used but it'll take abit more "skill" perhaps. I think true skill in a Niki isnt just getting kills...its landing them after the fact.
xBAT
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Errr Karnak... cool post but lack of "skill" in what... monkey bars? Hehe :)
xBAT
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And mimicking even more so Karnak.
I'm kinda sick of people defending the indefensible for the sake of a) getting attention in the form of my type of response, b) just being amazinhunks, c)defending their choice of ac in the MA.
I know the N1K is BS, you know it, just admit it, fly it, who cares, just a game anyhow.
chow :D
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I was killed last night by HISPD and he was NOT in an N1K. Believe it or not I think it was an F4U :eek:.
Bastige! How dare you kill me in something besides the N1K, you un-skilled son of a motherless hispano! ;)
Zippatuh
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Zygote,
No, I don't know that the N1K2-J is BS, and neither do you.
I have never managed to perform a wonder manuver and I have never seen one perform a wonder manuver.
I believe that the N1K2-J's e retention may be a bit too high, but nothing so significant as what you guys are claiming.
What I see is a bunch of crybabies who use the N1K2's popularity as an excuse when they lose. If the Spitfire F.MkIX becomes the most popular, then it will recieve the same abuse.
I have already seen posts to that effect in regards to the Spit IX:
Spit IX is not to be perked.
but their FM must be reviewed, accelerates too much, it does not lose E hardly, and the little that loses recovers it immediately, is effective to any height and its Stall, unlike other airplanes, is always the same one is to the height, not if this is asi really.
i think the spit turns imo too good.
It had a very good low speed handling, and coud fly with a half wing stalled straight on- but it reached the stall very early. The wings were very thin.
This is my only complain about the spit
Those who are prone to whining when they get killed will always whine when they are killed by one of the popular planes and they will always call for its "unrealistic" FM to "fixed".
The fact is that the N1K2-J was a very good warplane when it worked. In AH we don't have the mechanical reliability issues and thus the N1K2-J is a very good warplane. F6F pilots reported that the George 21's did "impossible" manuvers. Sound familiar?
The changes that will probably happen to the N1K2-J are not nearly as drastic as what you are hoping for. Your excuse is safe.
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Toad
i made films with suave and i in the TA
and posted them here. also talked to Robert Shaw himself and showed him the films(while i was at the con we talk this over the dinner Ripsnort, Udie and several other were there as well). Everyone on the boards here said the films showed nothing. Shaw said that something was wrong. Basic setup in the film...Im in a spit9 with 25% fuel and suave was in the niki with 25% fuel. we merged almost head on (325 ias)cept he was about 300 ft lower than i. I pulled up in a shallow climb as we passed and extended. Suave procceds to pull a hi G (+5)immelman with almost no lead turn at all(seen in his film).
i exteneded to almost 1.2 and kept climbing thinking he blew some speed in the turn. Not only did i get shot down the niki flew past me as i was hanging on the prop. Explain this for me. How did he catch me as i extended with almost no G's pulled at all and then catch me in the zoom?
RWY
Originally posted by Toad:
Too true, Karnak.
The N1K2-J is indeed a very shy creature when it knows it is being watched. It takes great skill to catch one unawares and film it while it is letting its inner self out on a rampage.
Perhaps someday some Nobel prize winning naturalist will catch a few frames for all ofus to enjoy.
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RWY, Pryo has said there will be changes. I don't think anyone is arguing that. It's REAL good.
It's the people with set beliefs that that it's a F16, or worse a ufo? I tried to film it climbing better than a LA7, I can't. Apperently, others are having trouble filming that as well.
Your argument is valid, so is Karnaks. Each has it's merits, but neither are worth constantly discussing until changes are made.
Once HTC reviews and implements the changes, it looks like a good topic for the Aircraft and Vehicles Forum. Mostly for now, it's all repetative wanking for the "Nik is a UFO" crowd.
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I think people are blaming the N1K2's "climb rate" on a fairly common mistake that everybody does. Even I used to think the N1K2 had to good of a zoom- now I don't think it does.
Let me preface this with an example from today. I got bounced by a tempest, we fought forever (that was a HELL of a fight). I was in a Dora by the way. I got behind him and he nosed over, I tried to follow. The Tempest makes the Dora look like a slug trying to crawl uphill on a pane of glass! I was like, WOWOW!!. Then he made a mistake. He was going faster than me, and he was d1.2 away. He began to climb, I stayed level. He kept climbing until his "climb" became a rope a dope. At that point, when I was just about under him, I pulled up into MY climb- I passed him as he was stalling and falling down (he still ended up getting me though, he got a snapshot on me in the scissors that followed this and got a pilot wound <sob>. Then he blew my tail off :(.
Point being- the Tempest is both faster AND climbs better- but I zoomed up past him. Why? I dunno, ask a physicist, but I think it was because he wasted some speed in his entry to the rope, and I didn't start climbing until I knew I'd have a shot at him coming down.
The N1K2 can do this just as easily as any other plane can, but because of my ignorance in these matters, I figured the N1K2 was "broken" and therefore people that flew it were "cheaters"- figuratively if not literally.
I honestly don't think you have to treat the N1K2 much different than you treat a Spitfire or a Zeke. You KNOW not to try to turn with one, and a speed-blowing vertical loop IS a turn, just not one in the horizontal plane.
Just make a pass, extend out, make a pass. Make HIM lose his speed and dive to regain it, and eventually you'll wear him down, no matter what kind of plane he is in.
[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: Urchin ]
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Karnak, very rarely get killed by N1K2-J's in my Tiffie, so I don't need an excuse. I haven't claimed to be anything special in AH, i'm a newbie really and don't know much acm.
But I know some things about physics and I know that an ac with the same approximate weight and superior level speed v N1K2-J should easily accelerate in a dive substantially faster v N1K2-J.
Was 15k yesterday in Typhoon, wepping and spotted N1K2-J 3k below and just in front of me, also observed another aircraft coalt and at my 1 oclock position, so I decided not to dive on the N1K believing him to be out or range for an attack. Next think I have cannon fire blazing past my cockpit, N1K's 1k behind now, coalt and slowly losing ground. Explain that Karnak, how does a plane zoom 3k straight up and still have the speed to line up a shot on a wepping tiffie? remember when I saw him he was almost directly below me 3.2k down.
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Originally posted by Urchin:
An N1K2 can kill a 190A8 1v1 no matter how it flies. The 190A8 has no strengths vis-a-vis the N1K2..
To quote a famous indian philospher, "Bull Honkey!" Urchin, it's the pilot, not the plane. If you don't believe it, find the hottest N1kJ2 pilot you can find, talk Fishu into coming back to the arena and match them up - N1Kj2 vs. Fishu in the A8.
Guys just like to whine - it's the nature of guys who are getting whacked. Tonight, I was exploring the shoreline for posies and that damn Kappa blew me up just as I spotted one. Alas, it wasn't the posies that did me in and certainly not the airplane he was flying (P38), it was Kappa. :)
AKcurly
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Zygote,
He saw you, made a zoom climb in an attempt to get a brief shot on you as you flew over him.
He didn't quite make it though apparently.
For me to give a better analysis I need to know how fast you were going, how fast he was going and how far in front of you he was.
Sounds to me like you misjudged his energy state, position or both and were surprised when he almost got you.
[ 08-30-2001: Message edited by: Karnak ]
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Zygote, that's not quite correct. An AC with a faster level acceleration will also accelerate faster in the early phase of a dive.
Only as you get to higher speeds will the faster level speed plane's ability take over.
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Yes, true Fatty, I stand corrected.
Karnak, I was on wep prior to the my seeing the N1K, around 300mph, and I was faster than the N1K below because I almost flew over him, unless of course he was flying different course to me, maybe, still flew up 3k and then drifted off my 6? less he dove first? no idea, just seemed wierd?
Anyhow, I apoligize to fatty for being an amazinhunk, htc stuck the n1k in the game for people to fly, so fly it, I won't, i'll just grab disgustingly large alt and bnz them.
cya's