Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: clerick on November 27, 2006, 07:26:09 PM
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I was looking for opinions and comparisons of the different P-38 G,L and J. Pros and cons of each model.
Thanks,
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You might find this link helpful:
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=p38g&p2=p38j&p3=p38l
What you canīt see on this charts is that the P38L , while sharing the same stats with the P38J has dive flaps which you may find helpful especially during bombing runs.
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Also, the PL has "enhanced" aileron control.... it rolls faster then the PJ.
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Differences between the J and L are slight in my experiences (with the exception of the boosted ailerons in the L), or I'm just not good enough to notice or exploit any differences that are there and typically fly them the same. The G is considerably slower and has less power available. However if you get it light on fuel it can sure go round 'n round and is great fun to take into a furball, twisting and turning down in the weeds with spitfires and the like.
General consensus on all models is to leave Combat Trim either off or set it to a button on the joystick so it can be toggled to retrim quickly when need be then switched back off. In my experience CT greatly inhibits the stability in the verticle and the 38's ability to hang nose high. Back when I was getting started in the 38 most people advised me to begin with the L as it has similar speed and performance to the J but is a little easier to toss around the sky with those ailerons. Personally I've found more frequent and consistant success with the G than anything else but I tend to attribute that to my time flying the hellcat and I think my flying style is similar in both A/C.
There are some very good 38 jocks cruising these boards, who I'm sure can give more quantitative and precise advice than I. I would also recommend visiting the Training Arena the staff there keeps 1-2 38 jocks on the roster I'm sure. If you're in the Main Arenas feel free to look me up I fly under the same handle I post with here.
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Combat trimoff? Interesting thought. I'm still getting used to using flaps and rudder in this beast. I spent a little time in the TA with Murdr but was having audio issues due because of my firewall so it wasnt as productive as it could be.
In the time i have been flying it i've started to get glimpses of of why the Germans called it the forked tailed devil. But it is deffinately a challenge, i think thats why i like it. Seems like uppinging in a spit 8 is just a bit TOO easy, i deffinately get more kills that way, but when i was on the deck furballing against an F4U it was fun! Thats why i'm here. I remember the cartoon that was posted where a swarm of noobs were vulching a base, i dont get how anyone can find that worth $15 a month.
Thank you all for your input, i just need to keep processing and training and figuring out what works and what gets me blowed up.
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Combat trim off in a P38 is a must, manually trim elevators to neutral and (as long as both engines available) leave rudder and aileron trim neutral.......
With combat trim off you will find the following good things:
Keeps you from stalling too early
-Delays (IMHO) compressing
-Plane seems a little more nimble in the vertical
-Downside: if u r busy in combat and cant trim manually, u may have to hold some stick pressure (back or forward) just to keep the aircraft level. This can make gunnery a little difficult, but with the nose mounted guns, thats no too much trouble.
By all means use the autotrim features: level, angle, speed when u have time. They will trim the aircraft for you pretty well.
Difference in G,J and L models.
G is as fast as J or L, but because it cant accelerate as well and takes almost thrice as long as the J/L to reach top speed it gives the mpression of being slower as most cons will get away. However the G can roll and turn like a spit. Its the most nimble of them all. Also IMHO in a dive it doesnt compress as quickly as a J/L.
J and L have little difference except for the hydraulic boost ailerons on the L. The J is lighter than L and seems to handle low speeds (below 200mph) better (IMHO) than the L. At speeds below 250mph it can roll pretty well too (though not like a 38G).
Above 250mph, the G and J start having trouble rolling, but the 38L can roll like a FW190.
All have the same guns, but L carries the most ordnance.
Love the 38s guns, 150 rds 20mm (more than spits) 500rds per gun 50cals (more than even a P47).
10rkts and 2000lbs give it quite a punch. Pity so many use it as a kamikazie Jabbo machine:(
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interesting points, i might have to try the G for some of these huge furballs that seem to eat me up in the L i've been flying.
Whichever model, its a difficult plane to fly. Lots of people have asked why i dont fly somthing different, i.e. easier. I think that the difficulty IS the reason. If i can get good in this plane, i can probably fly almost anything else that much better. That and the fact that it seems to do EVERYTHING well, but no one thing great. Like an American Swiss Army Knife.
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Originally posted by clerick
interesting points, i might have to try the G for some of these huge furballs that seem to eat me up in the L i've been flying.
Whichever model, its a difficult plane to fly. Lots of people have asked why i dont fly somthing different, i.e. easier. I think that the difficulty IS the reason. If i can get good in this plane, i can probably fly almost anything else that much better. That and the fact that it seems to do EVERYTHING well, but no one thing great. Like an American Swiss Army Knife.
If you like the pain try getting good in the Hurri Mk1 ;)
Everything else will fly like a scalded cat after :D
Just in case you think I am joking, ask schatzi ;)
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Originally posted by clerick
That and the fact that it seems to do EVERYTHING well, but no one thing great. Like an American Swiss Army Knife.
That is exactly why Ive flown it all these years in AW, WBs, and AH. It does do one thing great though... maneuver in the vertical.
I prefer the J myself. It handles enterences to instantanious turns just a tad better, and is slightly more stable at slow speeds. I say that with the note that the difference is so small that the average player would not feel any difference at all.
The L is an excelent JABO plane, and that is primarily what I use it for.
The G is by far the tightest turning of the bunch, but the lack of WEP somewhat hampers the 38s inherent vertical prowless, and also makes it very difficult to egress the battle.
Good info being given here, but I would note that the 3 models are only virtually equal in speed at normal power. The J and L will leave the G in the dust with WEP engaged.
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seems that verticle fights are where i need to be training. I know that it wont turn with most of the planes that i see in the MA, ESPECIALLY LW arenas. I just hate flashing that big "Shoot me down" target when you pull vertical. I might need to do some ride alongs and see how the pros handle it.
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Oh, hey clerick...that reminds me. You were the one who couldn't play films, weren't you? There was a bug, here is the fix:
Originally posted by Pyro
Crap, looks like a film viewer on the Patch 1 build didn't update. Grab this file and that should fix it.
http://downloads.hitechcreations.com/AH2091FILMVIEW.EXE
If you follow one of the links in my sig, you'll find dozens of 38 flims.
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I was able to play films and hve been studying them religiously. What i couldnt do was use voice that one day in the TA (stooooopid firewall). When i have time i would like to schedule another session or five.
I got a new stick and have been trying to find the best configuration... any input would be appreciated. Especially when it comes to dialing in the inputs.
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Originally posted by clerick
I was able to play films and hve been studying them religiously. What i couldnt do was use voice that one day in the TA (stooooopid firewall). When i have time i would like to schedule another session or five.
I got a new stick and have been trying to find the best configuration... any input would be appreciated. Especially when it comes to dialing in the inputs.
Five lessons are recommended at least :)
What brand/type is your new stick?
For mapping i usually recommend doing the basics:
Pitch, Roll, Rudder, Throttle (analog inputs mapped to the corresponding axis)
Look up (operable at same time as hatswitch!)
Fire Primary
Fire Secondary (operable at same time as Fire Primary, so you can actually Fire Both)
Flaps down
Flaps up
WEP
Range Voice (if you have a mic)
The rest is personal preference. The less you have to remove hands from stick in a fight, the better.
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LOL... funny that you should have repiled Schatzi. I took your advice in the TA that one day and went to Wal Mart... $20 for a Saitek ST290 Pro. NOT my first choice but better then what i had.
Mostly i was wondering about the affects of scalling adjustments on the handleing of a plane. Does it make THAT much of a difference?
So far i have the views mapped, not sure i love the rear view out of a 38, but i've been playing with ways to improve it using F10 and what not.
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Originally posted by clerick
Mostly i was wondering about the affects of scalling adjustments on the handleing of a plane. Does it make THAT much of a difference?
It depends on the brand of the stick and the operator. Some joystick models have a very "bouncy" feel when you are trying to make fine movements near the center of the stick. With scaleing you can filter that out so you get a more precise response out of the stick. I think it is worth playing around with until the response feels right to you. It's is more a matter of getting it set up for precision than making the plane handle, and on that point it can help very much with gunnery.
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Rear view is still better than the F4U. Though the F4U can see everywhere else better.
Most hats are at least 8 way now instead of just 4 way. If your hat can look 8 ways make sure you also set the view back over both shoulders and not just straight back. As well as diagonally up left and right out of the top of the cockpit. I spend a lot of time inverted when chasing someone simply because the view out of the top corners is soo much better.
Tip for checking your 6 is to do a snap roll while looking back over your shoulders. Let's you make sure no one is sneaking up behind you on those long runs in and out of a sortie area. Especially if you've been sitting on auto pilot for a bit.
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38G is a different beast to me then the J and L. Granted I fly the 38G almost exclusively, but when I do hop in a J or L it just feels heavier to me.
But then again I'm a reformed Spit pilot and the 38G is a real turn fighter. Get under 50 fuel in the G and it will do just fine against just about anything.
But as others mention, it's not the same in the vertical as the other 2 38s and the guys like AKAK, Murdr, Delirium, Raptor etc use that very well.
I've corrupted Soulyss a little bit with the G but he's a far better stick then I am and can eat folks alive in it.
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i was going to make a fresh thread for these films anyhow, but i thought i would post in this one also.
couple of films of the P38 J and G fighting a spitfire mkV.
P38G owns spit5 (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/P38G_owns_spit5.ahf)
P38J VS spitire mkV (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/P38J_vs_spit5.ahf)
i hope they help to show what the two planes can do, and also how much more superiour the 38G is for immediate turn fighting.
S!
bat
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Originally posted by Lusche
You might find this link helpful:
http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php?p1=p38g&p2=p38j&p3=p38l
What you canīt see on this charts is that the P38L , while sharing the same stats with the P38J has dive flaps which you may find helpful especially during bombing runs.
There is something wrong in the firing time of the P38L !
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Originally posted by clerick:
not sure i love the rear view out of a 38
The rear views the best of the 38. Remember that you can move your head around in each view and save a different head position for each view. Whilst looking back, move your head around and hit F10.
P38s rear view is so great you can rarely be picked off from a six attack. Its the 3 and 9 o clk views that are the problem. Those BIG BIG wings tend to get in the way.
I just hate flashing that big "Shoot me down" target
P38 = bullet magnet. :D
Any and everybody wants to take a swing at the good ole P38. Even bombers (especially B26s) occasionally try and take a potshot at you. Most people think BIG+2 engines+so much ord = its an attack plane and couln't possibly fight and so = easy kill.
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It's funny that Soulyss came up. I ran into him in an 8 player arena last night in his Mossy. Lots of flaps out vertical flying... Kicked my butt, but i like to think that i gave him a run on more then a few of the engagements. Lots of film to pour through from that. He was a great guy to talk to, lots of advice.
I have taken a lot of advice, especially flying without CT on, and WOW it does make a difference. Was able to stall out a few bandits then just flop over on them and watch them *POOF*. But It was obvious that E states matter (of COURSE they matter). Not enough for me and they were still able to climb up my big ole 38 butt and blow it off. But either way, i would say it was a breakthrough night for me and its due to the advice from all of you.
THANK YOU!
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Thanks for the kind words but it wasn't me. ;)
I have a doppleganger that flies periodically, he is very good in the 38 (better than I at least, which isn't nessesarily saying much ;)) and I'm sure he can give you some excellent advice.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
i was going to make a fresh thread for these films anyhow, but i thought i would post in this one also.
couple of films of the P38 J and G fighting a spitfire mkV.
P38G owns spit5 (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/P38G_owns_spit5.ahf)
P38J VS spitire mkV (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/P38J_vs_spit5.ahf)
i hope they help to show what the two planes can do, and also how much more superiour the 38G is for immediate turn fighting.
S!
bat
While excluding the Spit experts, I go into any fight with a Spit knowing I can turn with it in the 38G.
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ive seen you fly one and i would agree with you fully guppy!
while the 38J is capable, as demonstrated here, of beating the legendary spit5, the 38G is undoubtable able to 'own' the spit5 unless the spitty pilot really knows whats what.
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Watch out for the P-38G ... it tends to fall apart alot ... at least that what Dan keeps telling us.
Spit ... pffft ... and fear the WildCat ... :noid
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Hrm... I've not found that to be the case... Usually I can fly a 38 "okay" but once I get into knife fights, planes like spitfires get the better of me.
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get the better of you, not get the better of the p38? maybe? i'm not saying its totaly easy, im just saying its totaly possible.
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The 38-G climbs like a raped Ape after 12-K and handles energy manuveres Very well at altitude.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
Watch out for the P-38G ... it tends to fall apart alot ... at least that what Dan keeps telling us.
Spit ... pffft ... and fear the WildCat ... :noid
LOL I see FM-2s and I run for my life cause I know the likely suspects flying that beast :)
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Five lessons are recommended at least :)
>What brand/type is your new stick?<
The rest is personal preference. The less you have to remove hands from stick in a fight, the better.
I use a keyboard only. And I have no monitor. I fly by sound. Sometimes Murdr phones me and tells me when to turn etc.
How much for private lessons? I can afford about $.35 per lesson. I really want to learn the 38 but could you hurry and respond because I wont be here longer than my 2 free weeks.
Ive been flying with only one engine on as I thought I should save the 2nd one for emergencies.
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Originally posted by Silat
I use a keyboard only. And I have no monitor. I fly by sound. Sometimes Murdr phones me and tells me when to turn etc.
How much for private lessons? I can afford about $.35 per lesson. I really want to learn the 38 but could you hurry and respond because I wont be here longer than my 2 free weeks.
Ive been flying with only one engine on as I thought I should save the 2nd one for emergencies.
Call me, Lew. Ill give you some... private... lessons allright! :t
And yes, flying with one engine is perfectly good.... you dont need much maneuvering in a bomber anyway.
:)
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Well I have a feeling the pros are fed up with answering my questions, but I simply am wondering...
How are you people able to handle this P-38J/L? When I fly it, it feels like my C-47 can turn tighter! I'm just not able to see what glorious-ness is behind it...
I compared it to the 109G's and K4.. all of which outclimb, and out turn it. It seriously feels like a giant heavy piece of machinery that I ca't get working... and this goes for all the P-38's. I've loved them so much, but they just don't seem anything at all I've heard in the stories.
I couldn't hang any 109G's or K's in the vertical.. for some reason, I couldn'out dive an La-5, and my plane isn't outturning any Spitfire 9 or 16 even when we're both above 300 IAS. What am I missing ??
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Originally posted by Silat
I use a keyboard only. And I have no monitor. I fly by sound. Sometimes Murdr phones me and tells me when to turn etc.
How much for private lessons? I can afford about $.35 per lesson. I really want to learn the 38 but could you hurry and respond because I wont be here longer than my 2 free weeks.
Ive been flying with only one engine on as I thought I should save the 2nd one for emergencies.
:rofl :lol :rofl
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
Well I have a feeling the pros are fed up with answering my questions, but I simply am wondering...
How are you people able to handle this P-38J/L? When I fly it, it feels like my C-47 can turn tighter! I'm just not able to see what glorious-ness is behind it...
I compared it to the 109G's and K4.. all of which outclimb, and out turn it. It seriously feels like a giant heavy piece of machinery that I ca't get working... and this goes for all the P-38's. I've loved them so much, but they just don't seem anything at all I've heard in the stories.
I couldn't hang any 109G's or K's in the vertical.. for some reason, I couldn'out dive an La-5, and my plane isn't outturning any Spitfire 9 or 16 even when we're both above 300 IAS. What am I missing ??
Fuel weight has a very large effect on the P38's handling, because it is second only to the P47s for gross internal fuel weight in fighters. I try to plan my load out and sorties so that I can TnB with only 50% fuel or less.
The P38 is hard to catagorize with general rules of what you can and can't do because there are so many specifics. For instance there are a number of fighters that a J simply cannot do extended flat turns with and win. But you could loop with many of those same planes and win, if; you're loaded light enough, you have WEP availible, you are in the speed range to use flaps...ect.
Another tricky thing about flying the P38 successfully is that you really need to be flawless with your acm choice if you are going to dogfight. You may be flying a spit or n1k with the same flawed ACM, and never know it because the planes turn performance will often overcome mistakes instead of losing the fight for you. If one flies the same way in the P38, and make the same mistakes, it is very difficult to recover from those mistakes because it is at a disadvantage anyways when it comes to sustained turn performance.
So when you see people like myself, akak, guppy, silat, ect. claim to be able to 'out turn' a plane model there are usually a few considerations that are behind the statement. We have a grasp of the specific plane match ups, and what situations we should lose or win in. We try to guide the fight toward our strong points. It is very rarely just a simple 'you should be able to outurn that plane'.
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How are you people able to handle this P-38J/L? When I fly it, it feels like my C-47 can turn tighter! I'm just not able to see what glorious-ness is behind it...
Technically the C-47 does turn tighter at really slow speeds.
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clerk im going to give you the comparisons for the 38's in a nutshell, and this is through experience:
the g model is slighty more agile then the j and l, especialy at low speeds, and yes it does handle like a spit, but it starts to compress around 301 mph, the j model starts to compress around 380mph, but with the dive flaps out the l model can get to about 450mph before it starts to compress. i have found that if you do compress you can trim your elevator trim all the way up and cut the throttle. DONT PULL ON THE STICK, especialy in the l model, between the trim and dive flap, if you pull back on the stick you WILL rip the wings off (trust me, learned that one the hard way with 3 kills under my belt :( ) the j is a decent aircraft, well balanced in speed and manuverabilty ( my favorite of the 3). even with flaps out i have trouble with the l model at low speeds. i love taking guys to the deck in a g model, going full flaps and scissoring them. the g model practicaly hovers if you do it right.
people tell you to turn off auto combat trim when you fly a 38, i only turn it off to help me recover from a dive, otherwise i keep it on.
rudder...... the 38's have HUGE rudders. with nose mounted guns and the huge rudder the 38 is great at snapshots. snapshots alone are hard to master but you can practice on the drones offline, just fly outside the circle and then fly back in perpendicular to thier flight path and lead the target ALOT. there is a post somewhere about snapshots with a video (common help me out fellas).
also try and hook up with murdr in the TA. he taught me to get a 38 to do 3 immelmans in a head-on merge back-to back- to back. quite a neat litte trick when you have a plane that cant climb as well as you. thats another thing, 38 have great climb rates (g model excluded) when you are fighting and aircraft like a p47, some spits ( dweeb16 excluded), try to keep em climbing, burn thier e, i find it easy to rope-a-dope guys in a 38, you dont even have to kill the engine to get rid of the torque that usualy screws up single engine planes because a 38's props turn in opposite directions of each other. just go up, hang on the flaps and pull the nose slightly over 90 degrees straight up or slightly short of it. 38's are nose heavy planes so will full flaps and throttle cut after the stall horn sounds she will nose right over and if you roped the guy right, BAM! now he is the target!
i love the 38! that and the pony are the only planes i fly anymore. i hope i helped and have fun!
p.s. imho the only downside of the p38 is that she is a big target. enemies will land hits on your p38 that would normaly miss smaller planes. thats why i try to come with a friend or else you might as well be shark bait.
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I'm with Scorp on the Combat Trim. I used to fly with it off, but now fly with it on. Don't see any difference.
Also agree about getting guys low on the deck and scissoring with em til they get out front. i don't know if it's the lack of outer wing tanks or what, but the 38G will roll fairly well, in particular with rudder help.
One of the best knock down drag out fights I can remember was when I was bounced by a guy in a Spit 16. He wasn't a newbie. We ended up on the deck in one of those scissiring fights and after 5 minutes of struggling with him, finally got him out front and killed him with a snap shot. He couldn't stay as slow as I could without stalling the 16.
As he had the bounce on me, he had the advantage to start but he could never pull enough lead on me to get a hit. It was funny watching the 38G gain on him in the turn, and seeing his wings give up lift before mine did. he was flaps out too.
Probably ticked him off bigtime that the big old 38G could do that against a 16 :)
I've had some of the same kind of fights against Ki-84s with similar results too.
Don't mean to sound like I win em all, cause i surely don't but I feel confident going into a 1 v 1 in the 38G against whatever's out there.
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Originally posted by Schatzi
Call me, Lew. Ill give you some... private... lessons allright! :t
And yes, flying with one engine is perfectly good.... you dont need much maneuvering in a bomber anyway.
:)
Ring ring... Im calling you.. Answer the phone. I need to learn now.. Hurry up damnit...............