Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: B@tfinkV on November 30, 2006, 03:18:57 AM
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i have been wanting to make a post to show these flms for a while and i figured alot of people are asking questions about P38s. So here is a thread dedicated to P38s of all models vs the spitfire, in these two cases its a spitfire MKv, the most deadly of all spits in a turnfight.
P38G owns spit5 (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/P38G_owns_spit5.ahf)
P38J VS spit5 (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/P38J_vs_spit5.ahf)
there is obviously alot to explain about how these fights end with the P38 on top, infact too much to explain.
what i thought would be better is if anyone looking to learn the P38 first watched the films, and then ask questions about how it was flown. i say this because the manouvers are well known already and i dont want to go into great detail unless someone feels they want me to.
anyhow, enjoy the films, and try watching them from a couple of other views including the cockpit/recorded hat view modes. F5 fixed external view with trails on is a very good way to grasp the flight paths and manouvers.
i hope these are usefull to someone.
S!
bat
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
in these two cases its a spitfire MKv, the most deadly of all spits in a turnfight.
Hehe wrong, Seafire has more ammo and turns better :D
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more ammo, but not a chance in hell of turning better.
don't make me take your cocky little butt to DA to proove it :D
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Originally posted by Krypto
Hehe wrong, Seafire has more ammo and turns better :D
Seafire hase more ammo but Spit 5 turns slightly better.
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I like the wing fluttering down by itself in your 6 view near the end:).....
I wont argue the the superiority of the 38 vs the spit....especially if the spit driver doesnt really understand the issues. I got owned spitIX vs 38 recently on first few but once I learned a bit more about the "do's and don'ts" I was able to turn the tides....
Here I'd say the better pilot was a much bigger factor. You should have one timed him on the initial reverse....just bad luck (or good for him) he snuck by. He then duplicated fundementally the same mistake. Some folks dont seem to learn the fundemental reality that speed kills ;) ......
Wish I could tighten up my reverses that well....both shots were nicely set up....
***at edit***
Looking at the 38G clip
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
more ammo, but not a chance in hell of turning better.
don't make me take your cocky little butt to DA to proove it :D
Sure lets go, this weekend. Cause last I recall, flying the Seafire with Sonic23 it seemed to turn MUCH better. Easier to outturn 5's. Or is it just me?
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Originally posted by Krypto
Sure lets go, this weekend. Cause last I recall, flying the Seafire with Sonic23 it seemed to turn MUCH better. Easier to outturn 5's. Or is it just me?
I belive sonic23 only flies spitt9
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Nice films Batfink , especialy the 2nd one :aok
I know what a spit5 can do. It's a great plane.
My opinion : the spits didn't know how to deal with the speeds (especialy low speed). I bet they didn't touch the throttle.
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The second film with the J was great. I've been trying to use that rudder flup reversal lately but I lose control doing it. Good to see it can actually be done. I was going to give up on doing that.
If I can get in some pings on the flip like that may be able to scare the spit into trying to dive away.
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there is obviously alot to explain about how these fights end with the P38 on top, infact too much to explain.
In the first film with the G you were fighting was piloted by a babyseal and that in itself explains a lot.
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thats patialy true sweet2th, but i think given a few more turns he would have figured it out.
i have fought that guy before and he does have a few tricks up his sleeve.
the main factor is that they don't expect a P38 to go ultra-aggresive.
the flip you describe is very usefull damionte, and often very hard to recover from. the recovery relies on a good judgement of your angle of attack, in a game where you cannot 'feel' G-force. its essentially an elaborate and risky snap roll, forced by pulling back as much as possible and applying alot of rudder. one of the most vital parts of the recovery in AH2 is to push the stick forward at the same time as applying the reverse ailerons and rudder. pushing the stick forward, even if it doesnt look like you need to, will really help in returning to an even AoA.
I wonder if anyone also noticed at the end of the P38J fight, the aircraft is forced into a flat stall, angle of attack is showing the plane to be almost literaly falling straight down while keeping the nose high. It's almost impossible to create that ammount of drag in the spitfire to slow down, and the inevitable overshoot occours. its then a case of righting the AoA and restarting a rolling attitude to earn gun solutions as the spit tried to get back behind the 38.
in this situation the spits best opition would have been to flat turn away and force the 38 to either follow (with no hope of winning) or extend out and remerge from a disadvantage.
i wouldnt say either pilots of the spits were flying to thier best ablity, mainly because they were FAR too overconfident in the spit vs 38 match up.
the longer the fights go on, the more likely the 38 is to mess up, as can be seen in the lucky escape in the J that surprisingly only takes off an aileron/
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Originally posted by Krypto
Or is it just me?
I guess it's just you. The SpitV has a measured turn radius about 60 feet smaller than the Seafire.
Indeed, all the F4Us, 109F-4, Niki and Spit9 all turn smaller circles than the Seafire.
My regards,
Widewing
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Odd, maybe hitech gave me magical powers? My seafire turns better then any spit, just alot slower excel and a little less climb then the 8.
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Thank you for posting the films Batty.
IMO you just out flew your opponet's. It was you not the plane in those particular films.
In a close in Knife/Angles fight (Which is what is shown in the films) IMO the mk V will flat out chew up a P38g or a p38j .
If you would like we can go to the DA on any night and give it a try. Lemmie know.
Dave
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Originally posted by Krypto
Odd, maybe hitech gave me magical powers? My seafire turns better then any spit, just alot slower excel and a little less climb then the 8.
The AH2 Seafire Mk.II weighs 855 lb more than the Spitfire Mk.V when both are fully loaded. That's just about 11% more mass to drag around. Given the same wing area, it is not possible for the Seafire to match the Mk.V's turning radius.
Now, if the Seafire is carrying only 25% of fuel capacity, it weighs almost 500 lbs less than at full load. That will get it close to the Mk.V in a constant rate turn. Close, but not quite good enough.
I suspect you are making the universal assumption that because you were able to out-turn Spitfires with the Seafire, the Seafire is the better turner. What this really means is that you were the better pilot, able to get more from your plane than the other guy was.
If you want to test the two aircraft yourself, I can provide you with the detailed procedure we use to establish baseline turn performance for all AH2 aircraft.
Turn radius and Turn rate for all Spitfire types. 25% fuel, flaps deployed. From smallest to largest. The data is Mosq's data, but I have duplicated his results within 1%. Therefore, it is quite accurate, IMHO.
Spit1: 370.8 ft @ 21.2 degrees/sec
Spit5: 386.4 ft @ 21.0 degrees/sec
Spit9: 432.9 ft @ 20.5 degrees/sec
Seafire: 443.5 ft @ 18.5 degrees/sec
Spit8: 447.9 ft @ 20.9 degrees/sec
Spit16: 450.3 ft @ 19.9 degrees/sec
Spit14: 509.3 ft @ 19.4 degrees/sec
If you prefer a practical demonstration, meet me in the TA and we'll fly some head-to-head tests, and duel if you wish. I realize we have substantially different schedules, but we do see each other there from time to time. So, if you see me, give me a yell.
My regards,
Widewing
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Widewing, are those numbers with stall limiter on/off? Manual or CT trim? Same questions for Batfink plus, do you see much difference in vertical reversals with various limiter/trim settings?
Just a BTW, has anyone demonstrated actual performance deltas with these settings? I know many claim better performance, particularly with stall limiter off but I don't recall seeing any hard data that validated the concept. I'm wondering if it's more a "sense" of improvement vice a quantifiable difference.
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Originally posted by Mace2004
Widewing, are those numbers with stall limiter on/off? Manual or CT trim? Same questions for Batfink plus, do you see much difference in vertical reversals with various limiter/trim settings?
Just a BTW, has anyone demonstrated actual performance deltas with these settings? I know many claim better performance, particularly with stall limiter off but I don't recall seeing any hard data that validated the concept. I'm wondering if it's more a "sense" of improvement vice a quantifiable difference.
Stall limiter is off, manual trim. However, for most aircraft there is no measurable difference with or without combat trim engaged.
I have film of the F4U-1A being flown in a constant left turn with stall limiter off while being followed by another F4U-1A flown with stall limiter on. The Corsair with it off consistently turns a smaller circle. Not much, but smaller nonetheless. I'll see if I can find the film among the hundreds stored on my external hard drive.
My regards,
Widewing
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WW.....
I would be interested in trying out the seafire vs mk V thing. I think it would also be fun to do some of the 38G/J vs mk V ala the original post.
Not claiming to know here but......
My feeling is that if the 38's were flown in a vertical, nose up style and flown to gain and maintain energy advantage over the spit they will win every time. However if the spit can get it to a turn/angles contest the 38's will be history. Your thoughts here?
I think the new TA has a "Dueling" type area? I would of course (u know me) prefer that.
I think it could be fun and maybe we can learn a thing or 2.
If you are game just say the word. I am off work until Thursday so the next day or 2 would work well for me. ;)
Dave
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Originally posted by Mace2004
Just a BTW, has anyone demonstrated actual performance deltas with these settings? I know many claim better performance, particularly with stall limiter off but I don't recall seeing any hard data that validated the concept. I'm wondering if it's more a "sense" of improvement vice a quantifiable difference.
Ok, I found the film...buried in the middle of a 90 minute film run. I pulled it out and edited it to just 3 minutes.
I'm home today fighting off some sort of flu bug... So in between naps, I searched for it.
When you run the film, there's three things you need to do in order to see the turning circle comparison well.
First, view from the Fixed view. Second, pull the vertical slider all the way to down to the bottom to see the planes from directly above. Finally, turn on Trails to see the actual circles.
I'm flying the plane without an icon. Sloehand is flying the second F4U-1A. He uses stall limiter all the time and thought he was getting full turn performance. This film shows the real difference, but I am somewhat skilled at flying continuous circles at the absolute minimum turn radius (ask Batfink) as I do this a lot testing all the aircraft. So, that probably makes the difference a bit larger.
Here's the film. (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/Stall-Limiter.ahf)
My regards,
Widewing
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Mak I'll do some of that on Tuesday night if you can make it.
Just give pick a time from 5pmCST-10.
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Originally posted by Nomak
WW.....
I would be interested in trying out the seafire vs mk V thing. I think it would also be fun to do some of the 38G/J vs mk V ala the original post.
Not claiming to know here but......
My feeling is that if the 38's were flown in a vertical, nose up style and flown to gain and maintain energy advantage over the spit they will win every time. However if the spit can get it to a turn/angles contest the 38's will be history. Your thoughts here?
I think the new TA has a "Dueling" type area? I would of course (u know me) prefer that.
I think it could be fun and maybe we can learn a thing or 2.
If you are game just say the word. I am off work until Thursday so the next day or 2 would work well for me. ;)
Dave
Hiya Dave,
I'd be happy to do some head to head tests and some duels (although I don't fly Spitfires much). I'm home with the flu and feeling like the inside of a dog's butthole. However, If I'm feeling better later, I'll drop by the TA. I'm in there most evenings after 9 PM, so if we don't get together today, any evening will do. I have a couple of noobs to train tomorrow evening, but there will be time to play.
My regards,
Widewing
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I tested the F4U-1A for minimum turn radius the same day it was released.
Minimum turn radius was 422.7 feet.
With stall limiter on, minimum turn radius increases to 457.2 feet.
It's worse for the Spitfire Mk.V, which goes from 389.2 feet up to a whopping 492.1 feet!
I'd advise anyone who is flying with stall limiter on, to turn it off.
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Nomak
WW.....
My feeling is that if the 38's were flown in a vertical, nose up style and flown to gain and maintain energy advantage over the spit they will win every time. However if the spit can get it to a turn/angles contest the 38's will be history. Your thoughts here?
Dave
true, but the films i posted clearyly show the 38 winning in a turn fight. both films the spitty had alt, E and possition to start with. granted they could have flown better, but in the MA it is good to know what 'could be possible' in any given fight rather than what 'will' happen due to performance charts.
90% of the MA would not have flown those spit5s any better, and that, if i may be so bold, is the part where people looking to get better will be judging thier improvements on and striving to achieve, not by a DA fight with the best of the best spit5 pilots.
i know you spit5 vs me p38 and knife fighting is only going to lead to my being shot down 100% :)
Originally posted by Widewing
, but I am somewhat skilled at flying continuous circles at the absolute minimum turn radius (ask Batfink) [/QUOTE
very true, we went round and round in TA one time through all sorts of acms and just about broke even. finally we got on the deck and flat turning and i couldnt hold it with widewing at all, after about 5 revolutions i was struggling for possition.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
true, but the films i posted clearyly show the 38 winning in a turn fight. both films the spitty had alt, E and possition to start with.
Here is where I am going to make my point Batty.....
The reason you turned inside of the spit is because he was going to fast. He should have either.....
1) Used his E adv to pull up and BnZ you.
2) Cut his speed quickly to engauge you in the knife fight.
He did neither and he lost.
As you well know (although I think you are overlooking here) the faster the aircraft airspeed the wider the turn circle. I see it all the time with pilots in AH. They think to themselves..... "Im in a spit, hes in a 38 I can win the turn fight" and most of the time they are correct. However if the correct conditions exist..... as shown in your film..... the spit will get "outturned"
IMHO if the air speeds were even and the pilots even the 38 would lose.
Just saying my piece here. Not trying to be argumentative. Take it FWIW.
Dave
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Originally posted by Yukon
Mak I'll do some of that on Tuesday night if you can make it.
Just give pick a time from 5pmCST-10.
Sounds good bro.
8 pm?
Dave
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the spit 5 can fall into the p-38's traps easily when the 38 pilot knows whats what with his plane. its really easy to misjudge the 38's E due to its size and find yourself underneath getting roped .
most of the time its a skill vs skill in this matchup ... if either one makes a mistake though .... there ussually towered.
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Originally posted by Nomak
Here is where I am going to make my point Batty.....
The reason you turned inside of the spit is because he was going to fast. He should have either.....
1) Used his E adv to pull up and BnZ you.
2) Cut his speed quickly to engauge you in the knife fight.
He did neither and he lost.
As you well know (although I think you are overlooking here) the faster the aircraft airspeed the wider the turn circle. I see it all the time with pilots in AH. They think to themselves..... "Im in a spit, hes in a 38 I can win the turn fight" and most of the time they are correct. However if the correct conditions exist..... as shown in your film..... the spit will get "outturned"
IMHO if the air speeds were even and the pilots even the 38 would lose.
Just saying my piece here. Not trying to be argumentative. Take it FWIW.
Dave
I definitely cant argue with the fact that spit5 is a bettre turnfighter than the p38 by a mile.
but i fear you fail to see my point sir, with all due respect.
my point is that this is what will happen in 90% of MA fights, and my post is to help teach how to win an MA fight against your average spitfire pilot, not someone as good as you.
many times a better pilot will lose to a spitfire simply because the spitfire is such a good aircraft, i just want to show the 'next level up' from simply fighting two planes on thier stats, you see where im getting at?
if nomak in a spit5 fought nomak in a P38, the spit would own every fight.
if 'newplayer1' in a spit5 fights 'newplayer2' in a p38 and newplayer2 employs these tactics, NP2 stands more chance of winning than if they both flat turn to decide the fight.
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Originally posted by Mace2004
Manual or CT trim? Same questions for Batfink plus, do you see much difference in vertical reversals with various limiter/trim settings?
This was answered, but I did want to add one thing. Trim will not make a difference in turn performance in AH except at extreme speeds where either compression, or the physical force required to move the control surfaces is beyond the strength of the 'virtual pilot'.
However, because of how trim is modeled in AH, near stall speeds it can affect your range of controller input. As an example, trim 38 elevators to the bottom of the 'L', and perform a vertical reversal with flaps down to stall speed, roll 180 and level out as quickly as possible. While you try to level you may find that you have 50%-60% throw on your joystick before it wants to depart on you.
Repeat the same with combat trim on. You'll find that 15%-25% throw on your joystick will be as much as you get without departing. Either way you will be able to perform the maneuvers within the same radi and altitude range. Main difference is that if there is shooting involved while doing this you have more manual athority with the back end of your stick, rather than being forced to line up a shot while pushing forward.
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
if nomak in a spit5 fought nomak in a P38, the spit would own every fight.
Id give 38 nomak even odds on being able to build E and set up a rope.
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well assuming they started co-E in head on merge, i'd say not a chance in heaven. unless he had a really bad aim day and roped himself early on.
P38 is a big target.
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ve have our vays of dealing with these things. Trrrust me I am an experrt in my veild.
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a fate worse than a fate worse than death? thats preeeeetty bad. - blackadder :D
i'd like to see this fight, but i wouldnt wait around for 3 mins for the 38 to gain alt advantage. that is assuming we can clone nomak and make him try to kill himself :lol
when it comes to P38s, im about as far from expert as anyone could be, so i dont doubt your words murdr.
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Actually Id give the first duel to 38 nomak. Spit nomak would do his typical opening chandelle, and 38 nomak would do a nice 'out for a sunday drive' lazy immelman, and laugh at spit nomak trying to follow him up. After that first duel it would get harder. I dont think spit nomak would fall for that twice.
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Batty....
Your point is well taken, I suppose I misunderstood where you were going with the thread.
"Spit Nomak v 38 Nomak" :rofl Thats funny. My money is on the Spit of course.
Thx for a fun and educational thread Batty.
Dave