Aces High Bulletin Board

General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: hitech on December 01, 2006, 10:49:32 AM

Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hitech on December 01, 2006, 10:49:32 AM: I'm altering the capture system to be a little more flexible.

The system will work as follows
Each field will have a list of fields. One of these fields in the list must be owned enorder to capture the field.

This has the effect of creating multiple links between fields.
Also those links can be 1 way or 2 way.
A one way like would work like

A1<-->A2<->A3<->A5
|
\/
A4

Bishes first took a1 a2 a3 and a4
then knits took A3 and A2 back from A5

Bishes could not again capture A3 even though it is connected to A4.

Now for the favor.
Can you use the compello map and layout what you think would be a good link setup using the above system. I.E. just draw arrows between the fields.

Note you can dead end fields like A4 if you wish.

Basic goal is to create pinch points. I.E. only 1 point of attack at some places.
And up to 3 fields available for attack at other times. Most places I would like to see 2 points of attack only.

HiTech
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Ball on December 01, 2006, 10:51:46 AM: stang does favours.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Simaril on December 01, 2006, 10:56:25 AM: I think HiTech is asking for a favor that's legal outside Nevada, though....
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Donzo on December 01, 2006, 10:58:37 AM: Question:

Would the intent be to have all of the bases on the map linked in this way?
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Ball on December 01, 2006, 11:03:48 AM: http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=193579

(http://www.chromosphere.com/you-suck-internet.jpg)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Stang on December 01, 2006, 11:26:32 AM: It's "favor"

Your-0-Tard.

:furious
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 11:36:06 AM: Rgr Ill read in more detail after I'm through with the 20K lanc run I'm on. takes sooooo ling to get these up here. :)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Ball on December 01, 2006, 11:38:29 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Flayed1
Rgr Ill read in more detail after I'm through with the 20K lanc run I'm on. takes sooooo ling to get these up here. :)

where are you, i can help speed things up :t
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Bronk on December 01, 2006, 11:41:17 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Ball
where are you, i can help speed things up :t

If that's a 262 intercept you're planning... film it .:D

Bronk
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Ball on December 01, 2006, 11:42:23 AM: oh yah, i said i would send you a film of a 262 sortie, will dig one out over the weekend :)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 12:04:00 PM: Ok sorry for the delay. :) after taking the City down to 76% and Grunt training down to 29% and almost making it home Jensk came in with is 262 and shot me down. :) But both of his engines were dead when I bailed lol :D

Ok now to the request. So kinda like I have been doing on my other posted pics but this time with the entire map using this new systen right? :)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hitech on December 01, 2006, 12:07:17 PM: Correct as make sure you pay attention to arrows on both sides or one.

Also was think you could set up 2 capture chains with this system just like we have now. And then add 1 link in each country between the 2 chains.

HiTech
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Yeager on December 01, 2006, 12:44:53 PM: its almost like a traditional board game integrated with a 3D game, two completely mutally exclusive experiences being integrated. I like it.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: JB35 on December 01, 2006, 01:24:44 PM: can someone say "Chutes and Ladders" :D
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 01:38:47 PM: Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Correct as make sure you pay attention to arrows on both sides or one.

Also was think you could set up 2 capture chains with this system just like we have now. And then add 1 link in each country between the 2 chains.

HiTech

Ok umm 2 chains? Want to make certain I get this right befor I screw up :)

Right now it looks like we have 1 chain right? So I could add another one that kinda paralels the first or some such and you want a bridge between them at some point say in the middle of each country so when you reach that point you could then cross over and spread into the other line? Or did I just get it all wrong? :)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hitech on December 01, 2006, 01:52:28 PM: You got it, except you can start capture in either chain since you already own some fields in both chains.

But if one country would capture the entire chain, need a way to get back to it. Hence the bridge.

btw was just a basic starting concept for you.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 01:59:57 PM: OK I think I get it now. :) I just got done cut and pasting 4 screen shots of the clipboard map togeather so I would have something to work on ;)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 02:14:11 PM: OK just started and got to wondering once a line go's into a one way say to a dead end do you want the dead end line to be all 1 way or should the defending country be able to take bases back up to the point where they were cut off?

Like in your example they can't capture A3 from A4 but should a base beyond A4 be able to get A4 back? Or should the attackers just be able to push one way with the only hope for that line being that the defenders take back A3?

Hope I'm not geting to complicated.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hitech on December 01, 2006, 02:19:01 PM: Your choice, I was just was giving you some basic ideas.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hubsonfire on December 01, 2006, 02:34:05 PM: Either of you have any comment on the CV/Port suggestions in that thread? ie, the ports start a secondary chain, or at least a branch off one of them? Do you think that concept, or some variation, would work?
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hitech on December 01, 2006, 02:48:11 PM: Not big on the idea hub: Problem is it can once again create to many fronts.

But something like all ports only have all CVs as there link could work.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hubsonfire on December 01, 2006, 02:52:48 PM: Fair enough, was just trying to figure out how to make the CVs useful beyond just support along the coasts. I suppose their overall usefulness would depend on and vary with the maps currently up.

on your variation, you mean ports only let you capture the CV that belongs to it, which only lets you capture the next port, which only lets you get the next CV, etc?
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 02:55:24 PM: TY HT work will continue :)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 01, 2006, 02:56:47 PM: What about the idea of a CV being able to start a new "thread" at a coastal field when it is in range of that coastal field ?

At the speed of the CV group, I wouldn't think that it could open new fronts with any great speed, but does allow some sort of a stealthy end-around.

Just trying to think of a way to keep CVs involved. If the attack front goes inland (away from the coast) , then for all intents and purposes, the CVs are null and void.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 03:23:28 PM: Slap I'm thinking on this and wonder if it might be possible to keep more of a costal line going and an inland line, thus alowing the CV's to serve their purpose.

I think this new system may work out better in this regard.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hitech on December 01, 2006, 03:26:53 PM: Hub: was tring to describe that ports could only be captured by CVs, But how I was thinking of could not be implemented under the current design.

I.E. Never mind my thought.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Simaril on December 01, 2006, 03:30:50 PM: I really appreciate you guys working on this in a way that lets us all see. Even though lots of things cant be done this way, it IS nice to get an idea of what that development process looks like.

~~and an extra ~~to Flayed and the many others who volunteer incredible time for the love of the game!~~~~
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: navajoboy on December 01, 2006, 03:33:00 PM: and Flayed1,
while your at it.

some coffee might be helpful. :)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 03:41:47 PM: Quote
Originally posted by navajoboy
and Flayed1,
while your at it.

some coffee might be helpful. :)

LOL for who me?? I'll most likely be sitting here all night scratching my head on this one :) Already I have erased things a few times and started over.

I like the challange though.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 01, 2006, 03:47:34 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Flayed1
Slap I'm thinking on this and wonder if it might be possible to keep more of a costal line going and an inland line, thus alowing the CV's to serve their purpose.

I think this new system may work out better in this regard.

That would be very cool ... CV groups are an integral part of this game (when available) and should not be left behind and neutered.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 01, 2006, 03:51:33 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Flayed1
LOL for who me?? I'll most likely be sitting here all night scratching my head on this one :) Already I have erased things a few times and started over.

I like the challange though.

We have faith in you ... :p
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hubsonfire on December 01, 2006, 04:58:12 PM: The idea of the 2 paths running sort of parallel, one nearer the shore, one further inland, seems like it has some merit. I agree on the CV both being useful for attacking, and also providing the hectic furballs I enjoy.

Got a particular map you're trying to lay this out on?
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 05:14:35 PM: Ok I have gone most of the way across the northern part of the north continent and things are looking fairly good. I even took some screen shots of the clipboard map with Vehicle spawns up so I could take them into account some what, this is a bit hard because the map wasn't exactly desighned for this system but I think I have managed to make use of the spawns in some good ways.

I think I have found the spot where I want to put the cross over in where people could jump to the second line of bases and was thinking this could either be a back door for the defending country once the attacker crosses this point on one line or if it went the other way it would produce more fronts much earlier than I feel you would want, or still if it were a 2 way then you would have a constant battle there or more fronts and I'm guessing this last one would be the worst of the evils for you. Given the options I'm guessing just a one way would be the best option. Depending on what line you are on you will either need to look out for the defenders back dooring you or the attackers trying to invade the second line. This could be good from a stratigic point of view and make people look around the map some..

The only option I see around this if you don't want that, would be for you to program in a spacific line that would only let you cross over when you have taken all the bases on one of the lines in that country. Don't know if this is possible but that is my thought on the matter.

Then again you may have already thought of this and I'm typing this for no reason. :)

BTW I've been thinking on this so hard that I actually got a head ache lol. This is a rare thing for me.. I think I found the cure though by going down to the store for a tallboy to help me relax :D

Work will now continue.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 05:16:20 PM: Cv's still may have some problems if say the base they are working on suddenly changes from captuable to non capturable but I was looking at the feature yesterday and in a way it is another form of stratagy. Instead of sitting there ang just trying to defend the feild from an overwheming force with say 2 vehicle spawns coming into it, you can now push and take the next base and shut the door on the attackers :)

Other than that I think I can keep a good share of the coastal bases in some order to make CV attack more viable. I will at least try.

Compello is the map, just trying to rework the current map.

EDIT: I just got to looking at it and the 2 line meathod will also let two opposing countries clash on the 3rd countries land without instantly causing a reset.
This just gets better and better.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Donzo on December 01, 2006, 05:46:32 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Flayed1
BTW I've been thinking on this so hard that I actually got a head ache lol. This is a rare thing for me.. I think I found the cure though by going down to the store for a tallboy to help me relax :D

Just one?
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 05:57:46 PM: Sorry I forgot to meantion the bottle of wine for later. ;)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: thndregg on December 01, 2006, 06:50:44 PM: Flayd for your efforts, however they pan out.

I came home for lunch today, and here comes Flayd speeding down the other lane to my house on his bike, all excited about being asked by HT for his ideas for the game. It was a funny thing to see as he was explaining all this to me while catching his breath. Then, as I'm sitting here in my office chair chowing down on Mac & Cheese, he comandeers the comp for a bit, checking for replies from HT. He definitely cares about making this game better for everyone, and he's constructive about it, more so than I am.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Overlag on December 01, 2006, 08:09:59 PM: like it... this will turn it into more of a supply line war.... more realistic.... its restrictive, and not restrictive at the same time...

kinda like the battle of the bulge.... and the germans falling to capture Bastogne and loosing the advance.

:aok
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 08:11:26 PM: Ok here is what I got done today so far. I hope this is what your thinking of HT if not let me know what I did wrong and I'll give it another stab. :)
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n259/Flaydone/compello1.jpg)

I don't have the arrow heads on the lines yet ,I found it easier to figure out if I just drew lines. I will add the arrow heads later but for the most part I'm thinking most off shoots from the main lines should be one way. Reason being if I made the off shoots work 2 ways I think the war would get stuck on those small forks going back and forth instead of progressing up the line and deaper into NME territory.

There are 2 major lines, an inner and outer.

I have tried to keep the shoreline bases in a line so CV's would have more of a role. Also I have tried to run the lines so that we should avoid the Vbase stale mate that we seem to have now. All GV fields should have an air base on either side or at least an even distance from what would be an NME air field on the other side.

I have tried to make the small forks that only go to a Vbase valuable in that they have a spawn into a base farther up the line.

I'll finish this up tomorrow unless HT or someone can see a major flaw in it.
Title: Re: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 08:44:59 PM: Quote
Originally posted by hitech

Basic goal is to create pinch points. I.E. only 1 point of attack at some places.
And up to 3 fields available for attack at other times. Most places I would like to see 2 points of attack only.

HiTech

Hmm when you said 3 fields for attack did you mean that base 1 could attack base 2, 3 and 4 in front of it on top of the 1 base that is behind it like

.........2
....... /
0---1----3
....... \
.........4

Or the more toned down verion I just cooked up?

I went with the toned down version thinking that you wouldn't want to many fronts but I may have been mistaken. :)

Let me know and I'll redo if I need to.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Overlag on December 01, 2006, 08:53:05 PM: i think he means two lines of bases that can be taken seperately, but at certain points along the line theres a pinch, where BOTH the bases in the line need to be taken before the next can be ie:

1------3-------5------7--\...../-----11-------13
............................. ........\../
............................. .........9
............................. ......../..\
2------4-------6------8--/.....\-----10-------14

hmm ASCII pictures.

so the trail of bases 1-3-5-7 then stops at 9, until 8 is captured?

of corse you might start at a base like 9 in that picture, and have the line break up wider... this makes 9 a very very important target to defend and attack.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 09:03:03 PM: No I think I got the 2 line thing like he wanted... At least I think I did, I'm just not certain I made big enough spreads on some bases... Might have been to concervitive.

Oh well I''l just wait for the word from the boss and ajust it as neaded.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: bj229r on December 01, 2006, 09:07:04 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Donzo
Question:

Would the intent be to have all of the bases on the map linked in this way?

OBViously to hinder the Bop's even MORE:lol
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Overlag on December 01, 2006, 09:08:57 PM: how about the odd V base around the map thats not in the chain and therefor always captureable? that way covert "back door" captures could break up the chain?

of coarse V bases are generally just a thawn in someones side, but it can be helpful in drawing some people away from the main battle front... also help people that like the 2nd front option (a bit of freedom)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 09:16:09 PM: I agree but I think at this point HT is trying to get this line system working properly... after that it's not hard to just leave a base here and there out for capture at any time... Maybe some by strat targets and such sor at least while you held the base you wouldn't have to go so far to kill the factories. :)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Hajo on December 01, 2006, 10:04:57 PM: I've been playing online flight sims for a long time. This without a doubt is the best at interacting between the developers and the community that I've seen in online gaming.

to HTC and the players that take the time to develope ideas and maps as well as skins.

This without a doubt is the best online gaming experience I've had in many years.

Well done!
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: thndregg on December 01, 2006, 10:26:37 PM: Quote
Originally posted by bj229r
OBViously to hinder the Bop's even MORE:lol

HT is working with a BOP, so just CAN IT and let the work continue.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: FTJR on December 01, 2006, 11:36:11 PM: Agree with Hajo on this, great to see this interfacing, to all involved.

Once question, is hitting the strats going to affect this game play in any meaning full way? Or is that too early in the equation?

Regards
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 01, 2006, 11:51:11 PM: Ok I was gonna fly but this thing just kept calling to me so here it is with the arrows.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n259/Flaydone/compello2.jpg)
woops looks like i missed some up there by the north HQ.. Those should all be 2 way except the one leading to the large field under the HQ.

I'm still not positive I got it exactly the way HT wanted it but even this should be an improvement.. I think this should eliminate a bunch of the field related stale mates not to meantion we can start out with a 2 base front per country for a total of 4.

I might be able to do better but it is hard when the map isn't really made with this system in mind, not impossible and I think all large maps could be brought back using this system but harder to impliment on existing maps then on something that has it's bases and spawns desighned to work with this..

Though at the moment I would rather work with this then wait for ever for a map to be built for this system :)

I think with some effort we should be able to make most of every type of player happy for the most part ;)

I am really wanting to see the fight that develops when say rooks and knights meet on say the inner line with the bish picking on who ever they like the least from the outer line. Shoud be entertaining.

Oh and the bridge lines are the green ones HT I didn't know what you wanted to do there as far as direction/rules so I just highlighted them.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 02, 2006, 12:00:30 AM: Quote
Originally posted by FTJR
Agree with Hajo on this, great to see this interfacing, to all involved.

Once question, is hitting the strats going to affect this game play in any meaning full way? Or is that too early in the equation?

Regards

Hitting the strats will have the same effect it always has and espetially if you are the invading force into another country.. If you don't pork city and troops then the NME barracks just keep poping up every 15 min. (I think HT shortened barracks down times but don't quote me)

While being on the defending side the attackers take bases on your land there for the strat on these bases should not resup automaticly. So if you do an agressive porking campane on fields that they have taken it can be a real pain for the attackers.

The problem I and some other squad members found was with the current setup in LW Orange was that no one was looking any place else other than the 2 fields they could hit. thus very boring strat runs with no threat of anyone coming up to hiy your bombers.

I would hope that having 2 seperate lines, inner and outer in this case would spread peoples awareness and thus mount more of a defence.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Donzo on December 02, 2006, 12:04:05 AM: Nice job Flayd! :aok
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 02, 2006, 12:07:00 AM: Think it will work better Donzo?
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Traveler on December 02, 2006, 12:45:24 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Flayed1
Hitting the strats will have the same effect it always has and espetially if you are the invading force into another country.. If you don't pork city and troops then the NME barracks just keep poping up every 15 min. (I think HT shortened barracks down times but don't quote me)

While being on the defending side the attackers take bases on your land there for the strat on these bases should not resup automaticly. So if you do an agressive porking campane on fields that they have taken it can be a real pain for the attackers.

The problem I and some other squad members found was with the current setup in LW Orange was that no one was looking any place else other than the 2 fields they could hit. thus very boring strat runs with no threat of anyone coming up to hiy your bombers.

I would hope that having 2 seperate lines, inner and outer in this case would spread peoples awareness and thus mount more of a defence.

The strat game is totally dead under this one base capture system. all resources will just fight at the choak points. All other attacks are meaning less.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 02, 2006, 01:32:23 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Traveler
The strat game is totally dead under this one base capture system. all resources will just fight at the choak points. All other attacks are meaning less.

Not so and I proved this last night even on the more flawed setup we have.

Knights had bases on bish land so I and other squad members porked all the barrack on the 3 air bases the knights had captured. they also had 2 Vfields but they didn't spawn to the air bases to resup them and didn't spawn to a captureable base so they were no threat. Now after doing this they would have to run goon all the way across the water to either resup the air bases or bring troops in... This effectivly choked off the knight advance befor it ever reached the choke base.

Now if you are talking about being forced to go to this base or that.... Say the arena cap of 220 (219) to avoid the .3333 of a person has been reached and all sides have the same # of people (I know this is a dream:) )The current system makes all 73 hit 2 points so say 36 on 1 end and 37 on the other.. this for the most part is a furballers dream I would think and that is what we have now for the most part. Bases don't move much at all and people just keep slamming their heads against the wall....

Now you update the system to something like we are working on in this thread and what do you get... Now instead of 2 bases to fight on you start with 4 and this brings it down to 18 per field but how often do you see a perfect balance at every field on a map. The #'s will shift here and there and someone will get the upper hand and take the next base in order..

Now say the attacker gets up to a point where the line forkes like in this thread.. The attacker wants to keep rolling upthe line but cant just let this fork go... Lets say the attacker is smart and deploys most of his force on up the lineas if to ignore the fork and deploys a small attack force under dar to snag the first base in the fork....

Also there is now an added strat property to think about... If a base you are at is under heavy attack and the NME is obviously trying to take it. If your side could just get the organization/mission togeather and manage to take the next base up the line then the one you were just at is safe....

There is still strat play in this system. Some needs to be brought out by reshapig the current system and some needs to be discovered while other strat play will always be there.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Donzo on December 02, 2006, 02:42:46 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Flayed1
Think it will work better Donzo?

I think it might....never know until we give it a go.
Title: Re: Re: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: KryptoniteXP on December 02, 2006, 03:52:47 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Flayed1
Hmm when you said 3 fields for attack did you mean that base 1 could attack base 2, 3 and 4 in front of it on top of the 1 base that is behind it like

.........2
....... /
0---1----3
....... \
.........4

Or the more toned down verion I just cooked up?

I went with the toned down version thinking that you wouldn't want to many fronts but I may have been mistaken. :)

Let me know and I'll redo if I need to.

what i took from it is that at some points the "line" could branch so that you had a choice of 2 or 3 bases to take and then re-narrow (word?) after that is complete...

Where A1 was just taken by A33 (the only on that could have) and A33 was taken by A32 (the only one that could have)... it widens for a spurt...
Example:
A1 could take A2, A3, or A4
A2 could take A1, A3, A4
A3 could take any of the others

As well as the two lines like you have shown :)

Just a guess

Good luck and thanks for putting your time into it... :aok
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: TexMurphy on December 02, 2006, 06:30:24 AM: Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Hub: was tring to describe that ports could only be captured by CVs, But how I was thinking of could not be implemented under the current design.

I.E. Never mind my thought.

That was my initial thought about CVs and Ports as well... but realized for that to work each plane would have to be "taged" with its takeoff origin as the system now just "opens" bases for taking... you can take a base from any field... the restriction is which field you can take not where you have to take off...

hence I sudgested that Ports should be open for taking from any base.

In most cases on most maps I guess this would effectivly be the same thing as you would need to get a CV up to the port inorder to take it unless you want really really long flights...

Tex
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: DadRabit on December 02, 2006, 09:08:15 AM: S!

Nice job Flayed1. It is great everyone is providing input to work these problems out. Add a couple more base openings and I think we got a happy medium. More fronts=better chances of 1 0n 1 quality fights. :aok

S!
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 02, 2006, 10:10:57 AM: Don't quite have the patience as Flayed ... nor the time this morning ... but this would be my take on it.

The green lines indicate initial attack points.

The burgundy line indicates where two fronts would join.

All paths are two-way unless indicated by a red dot ... that field is one-way.

Flayed ... I can understand the source of the headache ... and I'm not trying to rain on your parade ... just trying to help.

There are probably a million different ways to do this ... I just tried to add more spidering of captureable bases.

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r249/rjhoyt/capture2-1.jpg)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: FALCONWING on December 02, 2006, 10:36:01 AM: Great work guys....love seeing this sort of interaction!!!

this is what i imagined a bbs being for!

thanks to HT and Flayd and the others who are giving ideas!!

please keep this up!:aok
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 02, 2006, 10:43:36 AM: Was just looking at the map some more ... after a cup o joe ... and was thinking about the sneaky NOE backdoor raid ... so I added another front-line connector (in yellow). It's a long ride, but if done NOE ... it could be fun.

The possibilities are endless ... only thing is that I would think that each map would need multiple "attack" lists so as to mix it up each time the map is loaded.

Once a map is made, maybe HT would then let other players present an "attack" list for those that don't possess the talent to make a map, but can see the strat on a map.

(http://i146.photobucket.com/albums/r249/rjhoyt/capture3.jpg)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 02, 2006, 10:47:25 AM: I understand slap and that is what I was wondering after I got done... HT seems real concerned about keeping the fronts small so I went that rout trying not to go to far from his plan but the more I look at it I think I may not have gone far enough...

I think I might get my morning coffee and work up another version with some places where it spiders out more.. Then I'll have a couple options. :)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 02, 2006, 10:57:43 AM: Sweet ... look for some nice "end-around" points like my yellow line ... for the NOE sneaky dudes.

Wish HT would jump in here and give ya a "yay" - "neigh" - or "your on the right track just a little something here ..."
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 02, 2006, 11:05:11 AM: Actually slap you seem to have a tallent for this type of thinking.

I really think your example could work as well or better than the round loop I have on mine...

Ya know with this system we could use the same maps but with different capture lines.. and basicly turn 1 map into multiple maps...

If we can help HT to get a good system working I hope he would release a tool that people could use to place lines on the current maps and submit them.. Most people don't have the time or patiance to build an entire new map but maybe this would be a way to introduce some variety into the same old stuff :)
Title: Base Size Should Matter...
Post by: EagleDNY on December 02, 2006, 11:13:16 AM: Might I suggest that lines of attack to multiple bases / thread crossing points be set up at Large Bases where possible?

This sets up the largest battles at the large airbases, which have the ack and hangers to be able to survive a big battle (for a while) when the bomber stream starts coming in, and provides an actual strategic reason for the large base to exist - it guards a key defensive point.

I know this might not work perfectly on the maps we have now, but if you try to make it a point to do this and implement it on future maps I think it would be a good idea.

EagleDNY
$.02
Title: Re: Base Size Should Matter...
Post by: SlapShot on December 02, 2006, 11:20:40 AM: Quote
Originally posted by EagleDNY
Might I suggest that lines of attack to multiple bases / thread crossing points be set up at Large Bases where possible?

This sets up the largest battles at the large airbases, which have the ack and hangers to be able to survive a big battle (for a while) when the bomber stream starts coming in, and provides an actual strategic reason for the large base to exist - it guards a key defensive point.

I know this might not work perfectly on the maps we have now, but if you try to make it a point to do this and implement it on future maps I think it would be a good idea.

EagleDNY
$.02

Good idea .... maybe Flayed has, but I haven't really looked at the map with that much detail as to what should fight what ... I was just trying to see if this is the "technique" that HT was looking for.

If HT was to give a thumbs up ... then a more detailed and balanced "attack list" could be made.

With that ... as both Flayed and I have said ... you could make your own "attack" list if HT were to accept player made "attack lists". Like Flayed said ... this technique could give many dimensions to just one map.

I would think that making an "attack list", as tedious as it may seem, is no where on the level of tediousness when making a map ... and would allow "strat" minded individuals some real input into this game.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 02, 2006, 11:32:22 AM: I know what your saying and I am trying to take things like that into account...

I think things like:

Base size
Spawn lines
Coastal/inland
Base type proxcimity IE- to many Vbases in the line with not enough air cover for either side is bad.
Spetial bases-- 163 base and zone bases.
Terrain--- I don't think making the next capturable base be one that is on the other side of a huge 20K mountain range would be much fun trying to capture if you didn't have a good base to come from :)

And the usuall base ALT

There may be more things to think about..

The thing is it is difficult to take these things all into consideration while adding this new system to it also... All we can do is give it our best shot and see if it works out. :)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hubsonfire on December 02, 2006, 11:36:18 AM: I like the ideas of different routes with each reset, and the large bases being the points at which the front can take different directions.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 02, 2006, 11:48:17 AM: If this is the way of the future, I would hope that HT could build ... a "Strat Attack Mapper"

The SAM would present a map in fullscreen mode and would allow the same type of zooming and moving of the map like what we now have on the clipboard.

We would then use a route mapping tool (similar to plotting CV points) and it would allow the notation of 2-way and 1-way route points.

When your done, you push a button that will compile the "attack list" that could be submitted.

HT gets the "attack list" ... loads the "attack list" in the SAM ... checks it out and gives it a thumbs up or down or tweaks it himself, if need be.

Oh ... when the "done" button is pushed, it would let you know if you had not included any bases in the "attack list".
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: EagleDNY on December 02, 2006, 11:49:56 AM: Thats a good multiplier - the same map, but with different attack / choke points runs through the rotation on a reset. Even with small maps, this adds a nice dimension.

EagleDNY
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: whels on December 02, 2006, 12:02:37 PM: HT,

is it possible under current setup to have it where the enemy can not see what bases are available to be captured by you side. example:

Knits see bases 1 4 8 and 10 captureable on thier map but on bish or rook
side all they See is regular base icon. this would allow diversion attacks, to setup the real strike. as it is right now. they have no reason to check/defend the non captureable bases, just pigpile defend the 1 or 2 captureable. this would force you to defend the whole map, cause u wont know which bases are takeable on your side.

whels
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Traveler on December 02, 2006, 12:04:49 PM: Here's a thought, design a base capture system that allows member of a country to attack at points that they chose to attack at and defend at bases that they chose to defend at.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 02, 2006, 12:15:03 PM: Quote
Originally posted by whels
HT,

is it possible under current setup to have it where the enemy can not see what bases are available to be captured by you side. example:

Knits see bases 1 4 8 and 10 captureable on thier map but on bish or rook
side all they See is regular base icon. this would allow diversion attacks, to setup the real strike. as it is right now. they have no reason to check/defend the non captureable bases, just pigpile defend the 1 or 2 captureable. this would force you to defend the whole map, cause u wont know which bases are takeable on your side.

whels

I see where you are coming from, but I think HT wants us to see where the attack points are so that a country can know where to concentrate their forces ... bottom line here is that he is trying to get forces to oppose each other.

Now, if the attack route is allowed to spider in multiple directions, then you could create a diversion attack at one captureable field, while another field on the spider leg is really the base that you intend to capture.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 02, 2006, 12:17:10 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Traveler
Here's a thought, design a base capture system that allows member of a country to attack at points that they chose to attack at and defend at bases that they chose to defend at.

And who in a country would get to make the decision(s) ?
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hubsonfire on December 02, 2006, 12:19:20 PM: Don't get baited, Slap, that's not a suggestion nor an idea.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 02, 2006, 12:25:12 PM: Quote
Originally posted by hubsonfire
Don't get baited, Slap, that's not a suggestion nor an idea.

:D ... nope ... was leading him down the CV commander road ... the idea would never work if that were the premises.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 02, 2006, 12:49:34 PM: Is there a way to reduce the text that is displayed for field names and field elevations ... in offline mode.

Trying to plot and understand the layout ... the text really gets in the way, at least on this map ... and it's needed to really see whats going on and plan accordingly.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 02, 2006, 12:54:12 PM: Slap I was thinking on your setup and the problem I see is that HT seems to want loops.

Currently in orange it is a single loop and he basicly gave me the option to double it and add forks to expand the front a bit..

On your example though I like it, it looks like you would have about 10 different lines...

Hmmm I just had a thought.... I bet I could run the lines some how to have the seperate countries really fight over controll of a line giong into the third country..

At least in the center of this map.. With HT's new idea it may be possible for one country to cut off an invading country and start follwing it up the line if they could hold on to the (T) base.

Ahhh brain strain again LOL
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 02, 2006, 12:59:32 PM: Slap what I am having to do is cut and paste screen shots of the clipboard map togeather in photoshop that have no field info on them. and take seperate screen shots of the clipboard with info displayed and keep that beside my working map as a referance. Kinda a pain. :)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: BaldEagl on December 02, 2006, 01:09:13 PM: I posted the folllowing in the other thread this morning and SlapShot seemed to think it would be better served here so I just copied my various posts over. Hope I'm not doing something I'm not supposed to here.

I just had a nother idea that might make this work on the big maps. Why not try opening all bases in particular zones so you have the forward zones of each counrty open? I can't remember how many zones are on the big maps so maybe this wont work but if there's not enough then how about re-writing the zones so there are a few more?

Just an idea.

I was thinking about this a little more. There's probably a relatively easy way to re-write the zones. Let the factories support the same fields they support now (a "master zone") but splt the fields into two or maybe even three sub zones (or "capture zones").

When say, 60-70% of a currently available capture zone has been captured, then the next one becomes available for capture along with the remaining fieds in the current capture zone.

I think an idea like this could appease all factions. It allows some freedom of choice but still focuses players into a smaller area. NOE guys could still do their thing, particularily at the outside fringes of some of the big map zones. CV's for the most part still come into play, etc., etc.

It seems like it would also be a relatively easy solution for HiTech and his staff although I'm not a programmer so I can't say for sure.

Geez, I'm gushing with ideas now. Here's one more to add to this line of thought. Say a capture zone is 60-70% captured so the next one is set to open. Make all abutting zones open until one field is taken, then close everything but the fields in the capture zone with the lost field. This way the direction of battle across the map could change based on the strategy of the players and add another element to gameplay. This one might be too complex to easily implement but it might be cool.

OK, tell me to shut up now.

OK, I lied. I didn't shut up. The "pinch points" could still be accomplished on the jump from main zone to main zone or even from capture zone to capture zone.

After reading this thread it seems like you could do this with the line and arrow system you're using now but maybe not.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Laurie on December 02, 2006, 01:12:02 PM: Reallly nice work flayd, wtg <>,

this is just an idea to possibly enhance it,

maybe a few more 'chain-starter bases' on coasts to really make cv's useful,

so say you you could steam it down the cost and start at new chain to stir things up a bit?

just an idea.

thats some realll nice work tho man.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 02, 2006, 01:18:09 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Flayed1
Slap I was thinking on your setup and the problem I see is that HT seems to want loops.

Currently in orange it is a single loop and he basicly gave me the option to double it and add forks to expand the front a bit..

On your example though I like it, it looks like you would have about 10 different lines...

Hmmm I just had a thought.... I bet I could run the lines some how to have the seperate countries really fight over controll of a line giong into the third country..

At least in the center of this map.. With HT's new idea it may be possible for one country to cut off an invading country and start follwing it up the line if they could hold on to the (T) base.

Ahhh brain strain again LOL

OK ... I understand your or his notion on the "loop" idea. I was trying to see if he would allow a spider technique as long as the concentration was not too fractured, but would allow a country to spread itself out a little more.

Granted, the picture that I presented may have been too "loose", but I really was not paying attention to all the details ... I was just wanting to get an acceptance of the concept.

My feelings is that if the route is too focused (the other side of "loose"), then an understaffed country will simply get bulldozed.

If you were to allow multiple semi-concentrated routes, the country with the overwhelming numbers just may shoot themselves in the foot by fracturing and diluting their attack force on a front.

If the cattle are all herded down one chute ... well ... you get the idea.

There are a zillion ways to look at this ... granted, the bottom line is to design an attack route that will cause conflict, but on the other hand give it some evolving diversity, dynamics, and choices.

From what I am reading in the other post ... people don't want to be cattle driven down just one path and have the pre determined attack route do all the thinking for them ... I think they are insulted.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 02, 2006, 01:20:00 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Flayed1
Slap what I am having to do is cut and paste screen shots of the clipboard map togeather in photoshop that have no field info on them. and take seperate screen shots of the clipboard with info displayed and keep that beside my working map as a referance. Kinda a pain. :)

Kinda a pain

Yup ... hence the question ... :D
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Simaril on December 02, 2006, 01:22:04 PM: An aside --

I really like the idea of using the map itself as a template, and having a variety of the attack chains. It'd be the same as, say, Risk -- where troop placement makes strategy different every game, even though the board doesnt change.

Think of the advantages:

1. Significantly less "monotony effect" since the maps would play differently

2. Increased opportunity for community design participation.

3. Makes the arenas into HUGE TESTING LABS to let designers see how different approaches affect actual gameplay (like "Gee, if the V base were at a little lower altitude it might let aircraft do a sneak on the rear base"; or "I think the version with more unchained, isolated bases is more fun than the one with straight lines converging on a choke point"). That in turn would greatly increase the success of future designs.

4. Strategically minded players would get more fun from each map, since there wouldn't be a "best approach" that worked on, say, Trinity's chain sequence every time.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 02, 2006, 01:26:45 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
An aside --

I really like the idea of using the map itself as a template, and having a variety of the attack chains. It'd be the same as, say, Risk -- where troop placement makes strategy different every game, even though the board doesnt change.

Think of the advantages:

1. Significantly less "monotony effect" since the maps would play differently

2. Increased opportunity for community design participation.

3. Makes the arenas into HUGE TESTING LABS to let designers see how different approaches affect actual gameplay (like "Gee, if the V base were at a little lower altitude it might let aircraft do a sneak on the rear base"; or "I think the version with more unchained, isolated bases is more fun than the one with straight lines converging on a choke point"). That in turn would greatly increase the success of future designs.

4. Strategically minded players would get more fun from each map, since there wouldn't be a "best approach" that worked on, say, Trinity's chain sequence every time.

Yup ... the doors that this notion opens is numerous and appealing.

I am dusting off my MAW strat hat at this very moment ... lots of dust on the bugger.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hitech on December 02, 2006, 01:28:08 PM: Thanks flayed1, That should work for the next round. Btw hope to have the system in place, along with releaseing the terrain editor that lays out the paths.

And yes it wouldn't be to big of deal to have multiple path sets per terrain, even thow they are made in the TE, the are not int the terrain file itself, but just reside on the host.

HiTech
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 02, 2006, 01:44:57 PM: Thanx :) and glad to be of help... I'm gonna continue to work on some other ideas for it. I hope others do to and post in here.. This is one of the most constructive threads I've ever seen :D

EDIT: BTW I was just wondering about your thoughts on those bridge lines... Making them spetial to open up when certain objectives are met? or just standard lines?
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 02, 2006, 01:53:57 PM: Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Thanks flayed1, That should work for the next round. Btw hope to have the system in place, along with releaseing the terrain editor that lays out the paths.

And yes it wouldn't be to big of deal to have multiple path sets per terrain, even thow they are made in the TE, the are not int the terrain file itself, but just reside on the host.

HiTech

HT ... could you go into a little more detail on what exactly it is that you are looking for. I am really intrigued with this notion and would like to put my spin on it ... as well as others probably ... and I think we need some more direction.

I posted a couple of screenshots with some spidering routes ... are those acceptable ?
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 02, 2006, 02:00:10 PM: This is one of the most constructive threads I've ever seen

Absolutely !!! ... if not the most ... ;)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hitech on December 02, 2006, 02:22:48 PM: Flayed1: Will get into the details of layouts next week. It can take a while, I'm sure you know, to look at possible out comes from different links.

SlapShot: Isn't really any one system i'm looking for. But what ever systems is used it needs to keep the fields available for capture on 1 front at anyone time down to 2 or 3. More than that, the forces just start by passing each other.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 02, 2006, 02:27:21 PM: Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Flayed1: Will get into the details of layouts next week. It can take a while, I'm sure you know, to look at possible out comes from different links.

SlapShot: Isn't really any one system i'm looking for. But what ever systems is used it needs to keep the fields available for capture on 1 front at anyone time down to 2 or 3. More than that, the forces just start by passing each other.

:aok
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 02, 2006, 02:27:45 PM: Ok here's my idea to get some 3 sided combat for bases going and still keep with HT's plan...
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n259/Flaydone/hub.jpg)
I dub this the Hub Of Combat :)

In this idea the 3 countries coud attack each other and have all 3 in the same area at once trying to gain a beachhead... If one makes it on to the other it is entirely possible to be back doored by the 3rd country. :D after the inital bases are taken then it can go back to a little more standard line though I can see spots like this iland as well for two country battles. The line then can continue on around and come back as it does in my current example.

What ya think?

Oh and slap if you have the time why not work up an Idea and post it?? That way if there is something there that HT likes he could just add it to the next version when he is ready to continue. :)

I think the more brains we have working on this the faster it can be smoothed out.

EDIT: I think I just figured out a way to make some kind of long range NOE missions still possible and have them also have a purpose instead of sneak this base and go nowhere. I'' work on that and post another pic for examination....

Man HiTech I havn't put so much thought into one thing in so long... My head is hurting again today.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: BaldEagl on December 02, 2006, 03:43:12 PM: Not to get off topic here but in the other thread I was wondering why there was always a furball in the "Valley of the Dweebs" in the original Air Warrior. I remembered why. Of all the bases on the map the two closest were on either side of the VOD. People who wanted to fight, not fly were naturally attracted to the VOD. This concept might also be applied here by creating clusters of bases. A cluster might contain say 3-5 bases in close proximity with a 2, 3 or even 4 sector expanse to the next cluster. This would keep the "fighters" in close and the "stratagists" would have a very difficult time maintaining the numbers to successfully jump to the next cluster although I'm sure it would be done. Once a cluster was taken it would take all available players working together to make the jump. This could be accomplished with the current maps by eliminating say 50-60% of the existing fields or whatever number accomplished this.

Just another idea.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 02, 2006, 04:31:34 PM: Actually the more I think about it there is no reason that we cant have long range NOE missions to take some bases a long distance from the main fight...

The way the system works is any base left out of the chain is capturable by all right. So NOE could happen but the base/ bases left off the line and capturable at any time need to have a perpose.. With the old system you did NOE runs usually to sneek a base in order to start a new front and roll in from behind, with the new system that won't work so well. so what I'm thinking is that in order to give an NOE mission some function we put a capturable at any time (CAAT) for short base/bases next to strat targets... This would give usefullness to sneaking a long distance base. You sneak that base so you have easier access to the factory/city it sits by at least as long as you can hold it :)

I think actually if creative enough use is made with the 1 way lines we could even set up some bases that could be nice NOE mission targets and open up small fronts in an NME country and if done right would allow for the defending country to slam the door behind the attackers if they started moving inland.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hubsonfire on December 02, 2006, 05:06:50 PM: Interesting.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 03, 2006, 01:56:03 AM: OK after I got done flying tonight I started thinking about this some more.. :)

And I was wondering if this was something that could be programed into the system.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n259/Flaydone/try1noe.jpg)
Basicly you have your normal spawns but a certain bases you have those red ones that could only be seen by the attacking country. Say knights would have 1 or 2 of these in Rookland and a couple in Bishland on the knight advance line that they could see and the same with the other countries.

So the idea is that if you work your way to the base where the line starts you then get the option to jump ahead on the line to what ever base it leads to, be it NOE mission or a conventional one. This would give you some advantage over your oponant if the capture was successfull.

It would also be nice if say the base was retaken by the original country the secret line would change starting and ending points so that it would be a surprise all the time and people would never know what base would be the secret target.

This might be a pain to program, I don't know because I'm not a programmer but I was just trying to think of a way to keep some of the sneaky missions in game. Otherwise the NME will always have some idea where you might attack.

Anyway just throwing ideas out here. :)

Oh BTW HT I fixed the missing arrow heads in the pic above.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: BaldEagl on December 03, 2006, 02:32:58 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Flayed1
Actually the more I think about it there is no reason that we cant have long range NOE missions to take some bases a long distance from the main fight...

The way the system works is any base left out of the chain is capturable by all right. So NOE could happen but the base/ bases left off the line and capturable at any time need to have a perpose.. With the old system you did NOE runs usually to sneek a base in order to start a new front and roll in from behind, with the new system that won't work so well. so what I'm thinking is that in order to give an NOE mission some function we put a capturable at any time (CAAT) for short base/bases next to strat targets... This would give usefullness to sneaking a long distance base. You sneak that base so you have easier access to the factory/city it sits by at least as long as you can hold it :)

I think actually if creative enough use is made with the 1 way lines we could even set up some bases that could be nice NOE mission targets and open up small fronts in an NME country and if done right would allow for the defending country to slam the door behind the attackers if they started moving inland.

I finally relented tonight and tried the orange arena. One thing I noticed was that zone bases are no longer capturable to cut off enemy supply lines until you get to them in the chain. Maybe zone bases shold be off the chain(s) and always left capturable. Another thought.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: eagl on December 03, 2006, 06:14:13 AM: To help out the NOE types, how about making the "end" fields from every active chain always attackable? That way you get the 2 or 3 "front line" fields HT requires, plus a handful of rear area fields that the sneek attack types can take to open up a new front by taking the end field of a chain.

If it's too hard to do this at the end of chains, make a few offshoot fields in at various interesting parts of the chain. For example, if you have a rear area field in a valley, that might make for a cool place to allow attacks at any time, and from there the attacker can jump off into one of the normal chains.

If this would still allow too many attackable fields, how about implementing this but only for the country that has the fewest numbers online? That would give the outnumbered country the special advantage of being able to attack a non-front-line field. Might help level the playing field a bit when the numbers get out of whack.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 03, 2006, 07:51:23 AM: Quote
Originally posted by BaldEagl
I finally relented tonight and tried the orange arena. One thing I noticed was that zone bases are no longer capturable to cut off enemy supply lines until you get to them in the chain. Maybe zone bases shold be off the chain(s) and always left capturable. Another thought.

I see good and gbad to this idea..

Good- Would be a good thing to do for spetial bases like the zone bases and maybe even the 163 base.

Bad- Would this make the country strat targets ignored even more than they are now? Why worry about porking the strat factories and city when you can just go for the zone base??

Also the CAAT bases can only capture other CAAT bases so we would have to hope that the spetial nature of these bases is enough to make people want to grab them.

When HT releases the line editor we can work up these ideas and try them. :)

P.S. HiTech now that I think about it more, don't worry about my last idea with the red lines... I think I am geting ahead of things. I might be able to acomplish similar goals with the standard lines/CAAT bases... :)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 03, 2006, 07:57:39 AM: Quote
Originally posted by eagl
To help out the NOE types, how about making the "end" fields from every active chain always attackable? That way you get the 2 or 3 "front line" fields HT requires, plus a handful of rear area fields that the sneek attack types can take to open up a new front by taking the end field of a chain.

If it's too hard to do this at the end of chains, make a few offshoot fields in at various interesting parts of the chain. For example, if you have a rear area field in a valley, that might make for a cool place to allow attacks at any time, and from there the attacker can jump off into one of the normal chains.

If this would still allow too many attackable fields, how about implementing this but only for the country that has the fewest numbers online? That would give the outnumbered country the special advantage of being able to attack a non-front-line field. Might help level the playing field a bit when the numbers get out of whack.

Well first like in my above post the CAAT bases can't capture any fields on the line. Yor idea might work out somehow if it is possible to do as Laurie thought of and have line starter bases instead of just the loop we have currently.

I think we will have to wait and see what HT's final work up of the line system and editor are like.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: rabbidrabbit on December 03, 2006, 08:39:26 AM: Great to see the interaction HT!

How about this for a suggestion...

Enable base captures outside the defined paths with lvts only. This would give CV's their power back but would restrict expansion of the new fronts given lvts are slow.

Its nice to get beyond the predefined route given how restrictive it is. There is merit to allowing more strategy not less in the the game although there is merit to concentrating the fight with lower numbers.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: thndregg on December 03, 2006, 10:17:06 AM: :eek: HiTech, I was just noticing my brother's BBS post times this morning.
It's all your fault!:p You altered his sleep pattern.:confused: . It's very uncharacteristic of Flayd to function on less sleep. What kind of coffee did you mail him?:huh

I WANT SOME!!!!:cry :furious

:D
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: NoBaddy on December 03, 2006, 10:33:40 AM: Quote
Originally posted by whels
HT,

is it possible under current setup to have it where the enemy can not see what bases are available to be captured by you side. example:

Knits see bases 1 4 8 and 10 captureable on thier map but on bish or rook
side all they See is regular base icon. this would allow diversion attacks, to setup the real strike. as it is right now. they have no reason to check/defend the non captureable bases, just pigpile defend the 1 or 2 captureable. this would force you to defend the whole map, cause u wont know which bases are takeable on your side.

whels

I like it. It would make feints a more viable tactic.

One thing I would like to suggest, there should be more than ONE attack list. Part of the problem with strategy in this game is that once you learn how a system works, you control it and little or no thought is required.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Tilt on December 03, 2006, 11:12:36 AM: This form of logic offers up some superb possibilities

terrains could be constructed that guided the two way land grab along routes populated with GV fields and ports..............

Off these routes are air fields actually positioned closer to the front line with their link running to a more rear ward field.

...........--------->A6........................................................A8<--------........./............................................................................................\
......../..............................................................................................\
----->V1<-------------->V2<----------->P3<------------->P5<------------>V7<------
.....................................\
.......................................\
........................................\
......................................... ------->A4

These links would mirror the gv spawn routes (and pt spawn routes across the sea between ports) you may or may not allow GV's to leap oceans bringing airborne and CV's more into play at ports. Spawns routes become "roads" down which the armies travel.

The terrain geography (mountains, rivers etc) would reflect the routes along which stuff travels.

Near the "cross links" (between one invasion route and another)would be Zone centres. With clusters of cities and strat objects usually set to support the area between them and the original front line.

By not putting the main route thru airfields you move the battle away from the airfield itsself without removing the airfield from the area of the battle.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hitech on December 03, 2006, 11:19:25 AM: Frayed1: Please check my work.

(http://downloads.hitechcreations.com/comptest2.JPG)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Zanth on December 03, 2006, 11:25:28 AM: Can we also have gv spawns from/to all fields in these links?
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: rabbidrabbit on December 03, 2006, 11:57:10 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Zanth
Can we also have gv spawns from/to all fields in these links?

thats a spiffy idea...>
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Tilt on December 03, 2006, 12:01:46 PM: HT OK I know I'm not Frayed1

From 4.17 to 7.17 you have a very long cul de sac of bases.

Might I suggest you link between the two Vbases 6.16.5 to 6.17.5 (V254-V52)

break the link between A255-A34

Connect V52<>V51<>A44<>A33->A34->A21

Leave A33<>V32 (etc)

Break A34<-A21(this seems wierd as you have it any way..its a unique link on the map)

Break V254<-V252

Make V254<>A253

Make A253->A255

The cross links between inner and outer invasion routes are

1 link long in the NE
2 links long in the West
3 links long in the South.

Could they all be 2 links long? and sort of more equi-distant from the HQ on each continent.

eg in the south cross link from v122<>v115
break v122<>v123
Make v123<-a??(13.2.7)

Also look mat the long cul de sac in16.15 to 18.16

jeez this is complicated I better draw it
(http://www.tilt.clara.net/pics/mods.jpg)

red ringed the changes

noted the arrow I left arounf a33 are wrong
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 03, 2006, 12:02:12 PM: Frayed1

I'll bet he is ... after all his hard work ... :rofl
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 03, 2006, 12:08:05 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Tilt
HT OK I know I'm not Frayed1

From 4.17 to 7.17 you have a very long cul de sac of bases.

Might I suggest you link between the two Vbases 6.16.5 to 6.17.5 (V254-V52)

break the link between A255-A34

Connect V52<>V51<>A44<>A33->A34->A21

Leave A33<>V32 (etc)

Break A34<-A21(this seems wierd as you have it any way..its a unique link on the map)

Break V254<-V252

Make V254<>A253

Make A253->A255

The cross links between inner and outer invasion routes are

1 link long in the NE
2 links long in the West
3 links long in the South.

Could they all be 2 links long? and sort of more equi-distant from the HQ on each continent.

eg in the south cross link from v122<>v115
break v122<>v123
Make v123<-a??(13.2.7)

Also look mat the long cul de sac in16.15 to 18.16

jeez this is complicated I better draw it

Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Thanks flayed1, That should work for the next round. Btw hope to have the system in place, along with releaseing the terrain editor that lays out the paths.

And yes it wouldn't be to big of deal to have multiple path sets per terrain, even thow they are made in the TE, the are not int the terrain file itself, but just reside on the host.

HiTech

With that, we can create our own "Attack/Strat Path" and submit it to HT and from the above quote, each terrain could have MULTIPLE "Attack/Strat Paths" assigned to it so when the map is reset, a new list could be loaded ... giving us a new map ... in a sense.

I'm looking forward to this new tool so I can give it shot.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: thndregg on December 03, 2006, 12:13:31 PM: Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
Frayed1

I'll bet he is ... after all his hard work ... :rofl

LOL Slap. I had the same thought. They get along so well I guess because they're crappy spellers. :p
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hitech on December 03, 2006, 12:14:46 PM: Just had a thought , some one else might have mentioned it, it is how I was thinking CV's could be extra.

We could take all the ports off the link chain, that way CV's could attack other ports at any time.

HiTech
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 03, 2006, 12:24:35 PM: Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Just had a thought , some one else might have mentioned it, it is how I was thinking CV's could be extra.

We could take all the ports off the link chain, that way CV's could attack other ports at any time.

HiTech

That would be cool ... but what if the current map layout doesn't have any GV spawn points from a port ?

What about letting CVs attack any coastal base ? ... stealth CV attacks would be great.

edit : Let me see if I understand you ... if a base IS NOT in the chain ... it is always attackable ?
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hubsonfire on December 03, 2006, 01:01:39 PM: Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
That would be cool ... but what if the current map layout doesn't have any GV spawn points from a port ?

What about letting CVs attack any coastal base ? ... stealth CV attacks would be great.

edit : Let me see if I understand you ... if a base IS NOT in the chain ... it is always attackable ?

Even if the port is a deadend, GV wise, you get another roving airfield, which ain't all that bad.

And yeah, unless something's changed, if it's not on the blue line, it's up for grabs by anyone.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 03, 2006, 01:34:59 PM: 2 things right off is a 21 suposed to be hooked to A34?? I don't show this link on mine. Also I missed an arrow head on A22 to P23 that was going to be a 2 way.

I also missed the arrow heads on the north A10 to A4 was going to be a 2 way and V7 to A3 was going to be a 1 way but we could let it be and se how that works out, it could get interesting there if the attackers try to move past without taking A3. :D

Other than that I think you got it right on...

EDIT: I like the idea of having the ports left out of the line. Currently on my lines there I have no CAAT bases because I was concentrating on getting the line right.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 03, 2006, 01:44:27 PM: Tilt I can see where your coming from to some degree but I don't think these will have a real big effect on the map, maybe a good battle here or there??
I would like to see how it functions as is.. If I made a mistake then we will know it don't work well that way. :)

I think HT is getting close to releasing an editor so if you have the time you can rework the map into something you think is better.. Like HT said we could have multiple line maps for each map.

At the moment I would just love to see tis one up instead of the current one :D
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 03, 2006, 01:51:20 PM: OH BTW HiTech I can't wait till I can put the pretty purple arrows on my maps. :D
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: TexMurphy on December 03, 2006, 02:14:17 PM: Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Just had a thought , some one else might have mentioned it, it is how I was thinking CV's could be extra.

We could take all the ports off the link chain, that way CV's could attack other ports at any time.

HiTech

Better then now but still I would much rather see the ports beeing on the link.

What about this. Ports are linked to ports. For example P24<->P23.

This gives us the long range NOE missions and increased CV usage in one strike.

Tex
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 03, 2006, 02:22:42 PM: Tex if we take the ports off the line then you can attack them from were ever when ever to capture them. So long NOE missions would work well.

The problem I do see is that ports are extreamly hard to hold even when you have an airbase to defend them from...

Maybe we could also let 1 air base by each port be a CAAT base also? then you could NOE or use a cv to get the air base and the port in turn and then you could use the air base to defend your port.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: TexMurphy on December 03, 2006, 03:12:19 PM: Reason I do want the ports connected is that unconnected bases are usless. Taking them doesnt give you anything back.

If the issue is that we dont want too many fronts well lets have one of the cross the ocean connect points be the port to port.

For example sub the v52<->v254 connection with P24<->P23.

Tex
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Overlag on December 03, 2006, 06:04:37 PM: Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Frayed1: Please check my work.

(http://downloads.hitechcreations.com/comptest2.JPG)

a34 has 2 exit bases from it... all other front line bases only have 1
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 03, 2006, 07:35:16 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Flayed1
2 things right off is a 21 suposed to be hooked to A34?? I don't show this link on mine. Also I missed an arrow head on A22 to P23 that was going to be a 2 way.

I also missed the arrow heads on the north A10 to A4 was going to be a 2 way and V7 to A3 was going to be a 1 way but we could let it be and se how that works out, it could get interesting there if the attackers try to move past without taking A3. :D

Other than that I think you got it right on...

EDIT: I like the idea of having the ports left out of the line. Currently on my lines there I have no CAAT bases because I was concentrating on getting the line right.

first thing I meantioned Overlag. :)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: FTJR on December 04, 2006, 12:04:29 AM: From a reading the map point of view. Perhaps you could leave off the arrow heads UNLESS its a one way spawn.. They kind of clutter up the map.
e.g

A1------------------V6 spawn from/to both fields
A1----------------> V6 spawn only from A1 to V6 not vice versa.

Just a tweak..

Regards
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: sgt203 on December 04, 2006, 05:12:42 AM: Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Just had a thought , some one else might have mentioned it, it is how I was thinking CV's could be extra.

We could take all the ports off the link chain, that way CV's could attack other ports at any time.

HiTech

I know nothing about programming so I dont know if this is possible..

If you want to make CV's more active in the game is it possible to open up coastal fields in their " areas of operations"... It would work something like this...... ( note that the "crossing points" between land bases are not included).

C-62 can capture:

V254, A251, A250, A245, P243, A236, A215

C244 can capture

A59, A60, P61, V52, A44, A33 , V20

C24 can capture

A253, A249, A240, P241, A234, V235, A229

C242 can capture

A21, A22, P23, A35, A36, A45, A53

It would work this way for each CV Group...

You could limit the number of bases capturable or make the bases that are able to be capturable unknown to the side being attacked... (or both)

This would give CV's a more vital role in the game..

It would allow the strategy guys to think of ways to use the CV to open a new chain of capturable bases for their side...

IT would appease the "sneak attack guys" as this would make each country forced to defend all coastal bases (or at least some) as you could run long range NOE Mission from a carrier to distant bases ( if your were able to bring troops from another field for the purpose of capture)

And if the Ports are off the chain of capturable bases and your side is on the defensive you could try to retake a port for the purpose of opening avenues to counter attack for your side with the CV, even behind enemy "lines"

Sorry if this was brought up already, ive read most of the posts, but with 50,000 posts in here it was near impossible to read them all

Just my $.02
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 04, 2006, 08:35:30 AM: Ya know we could just leave most of the coastal bases as CAAT bases... If any type of rolling of bases did happen it wold only be at bases on the coast and would still be capturable from the chain...

Basicly the CAAT bases would make up their own chain around the coast or groups/lines of bases that pushed inland a bit. CV's would then have many targets.
We would just have to rework chains yo allow for this.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 04, 2006, 08:40:28 AM: Remind me what "CAAT" means ? ... too lazy to go back and look ... :D
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 04, 2006, 08:46:02 AM: Capture At Any Time;)
Mornin slap
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: TexMurphy on December 04, 2006, 08:57:42 AM: HiTech,

On the issue of the CVs.

Does a CV that spawns from a certain port always have the same number? I.e P52 always spawning C52?

If yes then wouldnt it be possible to add entries into the capture chain file with C52<->AXX, C52<->VYY?

Then wouldnt the spawn of C52 result in AXX and VYY becoming capturable???

Tex
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 04, 2006, 09:00:03 AM: HT I was looking at your map and was thinking about the base that had two lines going to it ... In the future I was wondering if there was any problem with having multipul lines going to the same base... I don't think there would be but I want to check befor I do anything with it. :)

If there is no problem the system would work almost exactly like my Idea in that old post of mine and I think I could come up with more important bases, back door bases and such.

Just checking.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Widewing on December 04, 2006, 09:23:00 AM: Gent's, after reading most of this thread (whew!), I have one suggestion that would really make things interesting, IMHO. It would also place a new and historically accurate importance on sea power.

My suggestion is simple: Any CV can capture any base regardless of the progression designed into the map. I believe that this will place greater importance on CV task groups, and add a degree of uncertainty and opportunity not there with the current proposal. It also means that some resources will need to be allocated finding and destroying CV groups to prevent a 'second front' situation from occurring.

My regards,

Widewing
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 04, 2006, 09:57:01 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
Gent's, after reading most of this thread (whew!), I have one suggestion that would really make things interesting, IMHO. It would also place a new and historically accurate importance on sea power.

My suggestion is simple: Any CV can capture any base regardless of the progression designed into the map. I believe that this will place greater importance on CV task groups, and add a degree of uncertainty and opportunity not there with the current proposal. It also means that some resources will need to be allocated finding and destroying CV groups to prevent a 'second front' situation from occurring.

My regards,

Widewing

I have been pretty much asking for the same thing ... but I think that there has to be some limitations as to what CVs can attack.

Because the system works with a "list" I was thinking that ...

CV groups and what they attack would be maintained in a separate and dynamic list that is generated by the server due to the fact that CVs move ... DUH !!!

A couple of options ...

Once a CV enters a sector that has a base, that base is added to its "capture" list. This pretty much focuses the CVs only on coastal bases.

or

Once a CV enters a sector, all enemy bases that border that sector are added to the CV's "capture" list. This would open up more bases (not too many) than just coastal bases.

Also ... bases that become CV capturable are seen as larger icons on the team that owns the CV ... but not a larger icon for the enemy ... this would make the CV somewhat stealthy and provide the element of surprise that a lot of people are asking/looking for.

What would be cool about this notion ...

With the "map designed" capture list, a CV group, if commanded correctly, would look to attack bases that have a 2-way route ... if they attack a base with a 1-way route, they could travel forward up the chain, but not back down the chain ... another strategic element/decision added to the process.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Laurie on December 04, 2006, 11:15:13 AM: Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
I have been pretty much asking for the same thing ... but I think that there has to be some limitations as to what CVs can attack.

Because the system works with a "list" I was thinking that ...

CV groups and what they attack would be maintained in a separate and dynamic list that is generated by the server due to the fact that CVs move ... DUH !!!

A couple of options ...

Once a CV enters a sector that has a base, that base is added to its "capture" list. This pretty much focuses the CVs only on coastal bases.

or

Once a CV enters a sector, all enemy bases that border that sector are added to the CV's "capture" list. This would open up more bases (not too many) than just coastal bases.

Also ... bases that become CV capturable are seen as larger icons on the team that owns the CV ... but not a larger icon for the enemy ... this would make the CV somewhat stealthy and provide the element of surprise that a lot of people are asking/looking for.

What would be cool about this notion ...

With the "map designed" capture list, a CV group, if commanded correctly, would look to attack bases that have a 2-way route ... if they attack a base with a 1-way route, they could travel forward up the chain, but not back down the chain ... another strategic element/decision added to the process.

been thinking similiar things, would be good,
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: pluck on December 04, 2006, 12:10:55 PM: i also like the idea of cv's being able to capture any base, as in real war they where and still are a valuable asset.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Tilt on December 04, 2006, 02:59:38 PM: This system decides what is available for capture.....................

It does not decide what can capture it................... troops can come from any base.........
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: BaldEagl on December 04, 2006, 11:35:29 PM: This may be similar to another idea that was discussed and I know it's an over-simplification but Here's another idea for how the capture system might work. B's are bases and everthing else connects to the next capturable base(es) both ways. I see this as a viable compromise. It at least keeps the fronts focused. You can't skip ahead to get behind the enemy's front lines but it keeps the front lines fluid and dynamic, CV's are a;ways viable and NOE missions still exist.

B--B--B--B--B
I X I X I X I X I
B--B--B--B--B
I X I X I X I X I
B--B--B--B--B
I X I X I X I X I
B--B--B--B--B

Yet another thought.

Sorry, couldn't get to align right but I think you get the idea.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: sgt203 on December 05, 2006, 02:26:44 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Flayed1
Ya know we could just leave most of the coastal bases as CAAT bases... If any type of rolling of bases did happen it wold only be at bases on the coast and would still be capturable from the chain...

Basicly the CAAT bases would make up their own chain around the coast or groups/lines of bases that pushed inland a bit. CV's would then have many targets.
We would just have to rework chains yo allow for this.

Flayed1 I think this is basically what I meant but they are only capturable from CV located in that area ( if that is possible) ... destroy the CV the area is safe for period of time till it respawns.... Hence importance on protecting and managing your CV in that sector to keep it a viable attack option, while maintaining the focused action hightech seems to be looking for, with the land bases ie.. certain "choke points".

As was asked by TexMurphy if you could run a link from the CV group in a certain area to certain (if not all bases) in that area it would open such bases as "capturable" upon spawning of CV. (or even with a period of time after the CV spawns 15-20 mins where the bases would not be available for capture for those 15-20 mins).

Ideally the other side would not know which bases in that area were capturable to allow for some stealth plays at those fields and the field numbers could rotate upon each spawn from a list of several so the other side has no idea which base is open at any time (ie after 20 mins they know field A### or V### is now available for capture... again). This keeps the element of surprise upon each CV spawning.

Slapshot I think we are on the same page here but being "technologically challenged" I have no idea about what it would take to make this possible. I do feel something needs to be done to give the CV's the power they held with their ability to project power far from land bases.

And if what Tilt stated about the system deciding "what" (bases) can be captured, not what can capture it, is correct (and it sounds right the more I think about it) then what You and Tex described would be the only way to "unlock" the base for capture with a CV operating in the area that I can think of..

I think all these ideas are heading in the right direction with this and <> to all the hard work and ideas that have put forth by all in this community (big <> to flayed1 and hitech for trying to get something together that can be enjoyable to the majority players with varying ideas of what is fun).

:aok
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: sgt203 on December 05, 2006, 05:25:25 AM: Im gonna feel real stupid but I couldn't edit the last post.. over 120 mins.. or I would have deleted it..

But while at work I was thinking alot about all if this and how to make it work for everyone... I came up with this and I really think this is not as STUPID as my last two posts but is an interesting idea...

TexMurphy brought up a very interesting idea and good point.. Along with what Tilt said about "the system says what field are capturable not what can capture them" and along with Slapshots post about having the CV unlock fields in the Zone..

As Tex brought up if CV## spawns it should be able to open a link in the chain of capturable bases.. CV### spawn and bases A### and V### become "unlocked" and eligible for capture...

In a prior post I listed seven bases in each CV's Zone of Operations that could be used to be captured by the CV... Each of these seven bases was outside of line of advance or "choke points".

When a CV spawns (after a period of time ex.. 15-20 mins) the server randomly picks one (or however many) of those bases unlock to be able to be captured. The owners of the base DO NOT KNOW which bases are able to be captured. Only the owners of the CV are aware of which bases are eligible for capture.. This would be the case for each of the CV's in other "areas of operation". When a CV is destroyed those bases lock again and are no longer capturable unitl the CV respawns and the time period expires (15-20 mins).

On the posted map each side has 4 ports and CV's which would mean if each CV was up and operational there would be a minimum of 4 bases each side could try and attack outside of the line of advance to open a new front or relieve pressure to their other bases...

By doing this it would allow for the CV's to have a more active role in the game than there currently is.

It would make the protection and supression of CV's very important.

It would allow for sneak attacks and NOE missions ,not just from the CV but from anybase, into bases along the enemies axis of advance.. ie counter attacks. And yes that does mean you may have an enemy attacking a currently undefended base.

It would allow the strategy types to plan for missions while still having to take into consideration the defense of the CV... If you go on a long NOE Mission and fail to protect the CV and it gets destroyed you have just gone on a long porking run as the base is not able to be captured.

IT allows for the fog of war as the enemy has no idea which bases are eligible for capture at any time.. If you just sucessfully defended A999 and sank the CV saving the base, it does not mean in 20 mins A999 is now eligible for capture.

IT allows for feinging attacks as the enemy does not know what base is capturable you can run a smaller diversionary mission to a base that is in the zone of operation from the CV while your real attack is aimed at another base.

IT allows for easier defense of fields under sneak attack... Kill the CV you stop the attack that simple, the spawning of 60,000 LVT's will not take the base.(unless they would wish to program a time period in where the bases lock after the CV goes down ex 5-10 mins).

I think this possibliity allows for alot of the things, and I didnt list them all, both sides would like to see while maintaining the historical significance of seaborne invasions in WWII and the projection of power by naval task forces.

Most importantly (at least from hitech's perspective) it still allows for a more focused battlefield thereby increasing inteaction between players and hence combat..

Again just my $.02

PS.. Sorry for the double post I did try and delete it..:o :aok

<<>>
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: NHawk on December 05, 2006, 06:12:48 AM: OK, 136 posts after the fact I think the person who made the map will chime in. :)

Amazingly I'm actually pleased with what I'm seeing here. Compello was meant to make everyone work as a team and this little experiment is causing that. (compello latin : to drive together, collect, force, compel).

The last couple of interpretations are very close to the way the map was suppose to work in the first place. The only things I disagree with are the one way capture possibility and CV use. To me a CV should be able to capture any base on the shore. BUT, if a CV captures that base no other base around it is capturable without the aid of a CV. Other than that the routes are darned close to my original intentions. :aok

Edit: With the proposed use of CVs, they become mostly defensive in nature. The only offensive purpose they can serve would be to keep a base down with the guns. And if that's the case, then more escort ships and battleships need to be added to the goups.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: vizwhiz on December 05, 2006, 08:43:51 AM: Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
That would be very cool ... CV groups are an integral part of this game (when available) and should not be left behind and neutered.

I am liking the ways these ideas are going...I haven't finished reading the whole thread yet, but the idea that a CV could start a new thread, or have it's own coastal thread, is a great idea. The CV's should always be a coastal threat, and a coastal target for the enemy as well.

Perhaps, HT, the CV's can start a new thread, but only one that links to the "main" thread? Take a coastal base, and then the next base that can be taken from that one (by the CV) has to be on a line leading to the main thread (via the shortest number of bases)? That would give "short term", but significant objectives for the CV, without it being open-ended. For it to do any good for the CV to start hammering a coastal base, they have to go on to the next two or three that link it up with the main thread. Sorta like the CV driving stakes in from the outside edges toward a more centralized thread.

Or you could leave all the coastal bases off of the main thread, making that inner thread one base away from the coast in all cases, and that you HAVE to take the coastal towns with the CV in order to link it to the main thread.

(just thinking here...)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: vizwhiz on December 05, 2006, 08:45:49 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Simaril
I really appreciate you guys working on this in a way that lets us all see. Even though lots of things cant be done this way, it IS nice to get an idea of what that development process looks like.

~~and an extra ~~to Flayed and the many others who volunteer incredible time for the love of the game!~~~~

======
Yeah, so true! For us geekberts out here, it's almost as fun as playing the game!:D

:confused:

:(

Okay, not really... I like flying better.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 05, 2006, 09:00:07 AM: HT I have to ask.. Do the lines have to be in loops?? or is it possible to just have a couple lines threading into a country seperatly? I have some Ideas that I am working on that have great possibilities but if the tread has to stay looped this severley limmits what can be done.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: vizwhiz on December 05, 2006, 09:08:10 AM: Quote
Originally posted by whels
HT,

is it possible under current setup to have it where the enemy can not see what bases are available to be captured by you side. example:

Knits see bases 1 4 8 and 10 captureable on thier map but on bish or rook
side all they See is regular base icon. this would allow diversion attacks, to setup the real strike. as it is right now. they have no reason to check/defend the non captureable bases, just pigpile defend the 1 or 2 captureable. this would force you to defend the whole map, cause u wont know which bases are takeable on your side.

whels

OOooohh I LIKE this idea!! The enemy never really knows what base you're trying to take, does it? (unless they've decoded your radio transmissions) This adds a GREAT strategic process to how a team works together, the false attacks, the bait-and-switches... Good idea.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 05, 2006, 09:13:46 AM: HT if you could tie the enlarged bases and field order lines into the HQ..... See where I'm going with this? Though I still say it is to easy to resup the HQ. :)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hitech on December 05, 2006, 09:31:53 AM: Flayed1: Nothing in the system makes them be that way. But rember if you dead end somthing, It needs a way to be taken back.

HiTech
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: vizwhiz on December 05, 2006, 09:43:21 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Tilt
This system decides what is available for capture.....................

It does not decide what can capture it................... troops can come from any base.........

I think this is an important point. The CV doesn't actually capture the base...the planes launched bomb, etc. and then troops come from somewhere, ltv's, c47, etc.
As the game stands now, you can attack any base from anywhere...it just doesn't gain you anything. Planes from the CV can attack any base right now, but that doesn't make the base capturable.
What I think we're all asking for on the CV's is to make an "uncapturable" base become "capturable" by some means...either how close the CV is to the base, the fact that the planes launched from the CV, or something like that.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 05, 2006, 09:50:52 AM: Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Flayed1: Nothing in the system makes them be that way. But rember if you dead end somthing, It needs a way to be taken back.

HiTech

Yeah sooo We could do a couple seaperate threads spidering into a country with bridge points between them. I guess that is a loop but you know what I'm talking about. :)

The bridge point would not be accessable untill you finish taking the bases or at least most of them on that particular thread web deep in NME territory...

I think I get it :aok
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: vizwhiz on December 05, 2006, 09:52:36 AM: Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Flayed1: Nothing in the system makes them be that way. But rember if you dead end somthing, It needs a way to be taken back.

HiTech

I was looking at your map, and had that same thought - that if you started down one of the "one way" threads, and the enemy you took it from was able to "catch up" to you, it would become pointless to take the rest of the bases down that thread because you couldn't "turn around" and fight back up the line to push the enemy back from what you already took.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 05, 2006, 10:02:13 AM: Yes exactly that would make the base that started the split extreamly important now wouldn't it? :t

with this meathod if you want to hold onto the bases in the one way you need to maintain controll of that splitter base.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: hitech on December 05, 2006, 10:06:43 AM: Flayed1: Also you have to remember the whole point of the system is to force fighting.

HiTech
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 05, 2006, 10:10:57 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Flayed1
Yes exactly that would make the base that started the split extreamly important now wouldn't it? :t

with this meathod if you want to hold onto the bases in the one way you need to maintain controll of that splitter base.

EVIL ... PURE EVIL (I like the way this man thinks)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 05, 2006, 10:14:17 AM: Yes I understand this and I wans't planning on going astray of the current pan..

Though the more I think about it, it might be more difficult to work up this idea in my head than I first thought.... I always start working with 2 countries and all looks good then I add that 3rd one and it screws up the entire idea LOL

You have my head hurting again HT literally... :) But I would rather have my head hurting thinking about this system than from a hangover.

EDIT: Thinking about it more I guess the loops would work the best...
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 05, 2006, 10:19:54 AM: Quote
Originally posted by SlapShot
EVIL ... PURE EVIL (I like the way this man thinks)

Ya know Slap if I reworked the lines a bit I bet we could have a couple friendly bases that would make the splitter base captuereable so if you want to keep it you would need to take 2 or more bases to hold on to it.

If HT wants fighting I think that would be one on a grand scale LOL
Though I wouldn't want to make it to hard to keep the base or I could see that base being a stalemate base.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Killjoy2 on December 05, 2006, 10:35:29 AM: As we have it now, the highest ranking player can command the the CV and attack were he wants. Of course anyone can take control of the CV until a higher ranking player wants it.

In the future, what about having the highest ranking player being able to plot an attack pattern on the land bases. When he logs, the attack plan can be changed by the next highest ranking player. It's worked for the CV's

Strategy on the fly.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Solar10 on December 05, 2006, 11:02:29 AM: Attack plans must match defense plans for what Hitech wants.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: scottydawg on December 05, 2006, 11:02:49 AM: Quote
Originally posted by hitech

(http://downloads.hitechcreations.com/comptest2.JPG)

How does one get a map this big (without the links)? I've got an idea and want to try and visualize it.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Killjoy2 on December 05, 2006, 11:16:32 AM: Good point.

But what if each country has an attack plan and must defend the other countries strategy?
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 05, 2006, 11:45:48 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Killjoy2
As we have it now, the highest ranking player can command the the CV and attack were he wants. Of course anyone can take control of the CV until a higher ranking player wants it.

In the future, what about having the highest ranking player being able to plot an attack pattern on the land bases. When he logs, the attack plan can be changed by the next highest ranking player. It's worked for the CV's

Strategy on the fly.

I am not saying that this is a bad idea, but it will never fly.

Too many times, I have seen people bicker over where a CV should be going ... I can just imagine the mayhem that would ensue each time one controller gets trumped by a higher ranking controller.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 05, 2006, 12:14:57 PM: Quote
Originally posted by scottydawg
How does one get a map this big (without the links)? I've got an idea and want to try and visualize it.

For those with Ideas hear you go . :)

You should be able to right click and save this to your comp.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n259/Flaydone/compelloblank.jpg)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Laurie on December 05, 2006, 01:29:44 PM: (http://C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Documents\My Pictures\myidea.jpg)

my idea flyd, dont know wether image will show but here goes,

coloured spiders= small zone,
Coloured large dot next to each spider='supply base/depot, has vh, maybe a grass airstrip for a cetain low end plane, (p40?) low end plane. bit like a port. NO DAR tho.

black circled base's= close enough to homlend for water couriered supps, so can be taken anytime.(perhaps maybe if city above 75% or sumthing??)

now in deatil of supply depot's, these would have to be captured to enable corresponding zone to be available for capture, BUT once this depot is captured, all bases in that zone are avialable.. get the idea i hope. the independent bases help make it easier to get foot on enemy 'home land'

CV's, these are base availability triggers, when within half a grid sqaure of a base, it becomes available, but owners do not know.

The navy blue line at rear of territory by HQ works similiarly to current method, its a trail, but there are a few starter bases here, and it can be started at each end.

hope u like it and if you dont, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is always welcome, CONSTRUCTIVE.(http://C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Documents\My Pictures\myidea.jpg)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Laurie on December 05, 2006, 01:31:21 PM: damn picture wont upload, wish there was a browse option for images... :cry
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: vizwhiz on December 05, 2006, 01:33:05 PM: this has been great fun to follow all day, but i've already had to quit flying for a night or two because i'm addicted to it, and now i've been reading this and thinking of all kinds of things about the game and can't get my work done!! aaauuuuugghhh...why's it have to be so FUN???? :D
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: SlapShot on December 05, 2006, 01:55:40 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Laurie
(http://C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Documents\My Pictures\myidea.jpg)

my idea flyd, dont know wether image will show but here goes,

coloured spiders= small zone,
Coloured large dot next to each spider='supply base/depot, has vh, maybe a grass airstrip for a cetain low end plane, (p40?) low end plane. bit like a port. NO DAR tho.

black circled base's= close enough to homlend for water couriered supps, so can be taken anytime.(perhaps maybe if city above 75% or sumthing??)

now in deatil of supply depot's, these would have to be captured to enable corresponding zone to be available for capture, BUT once this depot is captured, all bases in that zone are avialable.. get the idea i hope. the independent bases help make it easier to get foot on enemy 'home land'

CV's, these are base availability triggers, when within half a grid sqaure of a base, it becomes available, but owners do not know.

The navy blue line at rear of territory by HQ works similiarly to current method, its a trail, but there are a few starter bases here, and it can be started at each end.

hope u like it and if you dont, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is always welcome, CONSTRUCTIVE.(http://C:\Documents and Settings\All Users\Documents\My Pictures\myidea.jpg)

The "Attack" tool that HT will be giving us to map these "Attack Lines" will just only do that ... it will allow you to design "Attack Lines" on an existing map.

While your ideas have merit ... you are also asking that the map be re-designed too (at least that is what I think I am reading) and Flayed1 nor anyone else can do that except HTC or the original map maker.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: scottydawg on December 05, 2006, 06:53:18 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Laurie
damn picture wont upload, wish there was a browse option for images... :cry

Email me the picture if you want it hosted.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Laurie on December 06, 2006, 03:54:27 AM: at work currently :( , will send you it this evening if thats ok :aok

cheers,
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: TexInVa on December 06, 2006, 05:49:54 AM: Quote
Originally posted by hitech
Just had a thought , some one else might have mentioned it, it is how I was thinking CV's could be extra.

We could take all the ports off the link chain, that way CV's could attack other ports at any time.

HiTech

And/ or make the task group larger (two or three carriers) or allow the ports to launch two task groups. Steer them in a way to start carrier duels or sea battles.

I can only see this working on maps that would be specifically designed for this, or where ports are very close to each other.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: scottydawg on December 06, 2006, 02:16:50 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Laurie

my idea flyd, dont know wether image will show but here goes,

coloured spiders= small zone,
Coloured large dot next to each spider='supply base/depot, has vh, maybe a grass airstrip for a cetain low end plane, (p40?) low end plane. bit like a port. NO DAR tho.

black circled base's= close enough to homlend for water couriered supps, so can be taken anytime.(perhaps maybe if city above 75% or sumthing??)

now in deatil of supply depot's, these would have to be captured to enable corresponding zone to be available for capture, BUT once this depot is captured, all bases in that zone are avialable.. get the idea i hope. the independent bases help make it easier to get foot on enemy 'home land'

CV's, these are base availability triggers, when within half a grid sqaure of a base, it becomes available, but owners do not know.

The navy blue line at rear of territory by HQ works similiarly to current method, its a trail, but there are a few starter bases here, and it can be started at each end.

hope u like it and if you dont, CONSTRUCTIVE criticism is always welcome, CONSTRUCTIVE.

Hosted for Laurie:
(http://home.comcast.net/~sbrawner/pics/compelloblank.jpg)
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 06, 2006, 02:47:09 PM: The problem with your idea is allot of it looks like it would either need a rewriting of the game code or at the very least a reworking of the actual map...

As far as the capture lines go I have thought about small capture zones but at the same time trying to stay within the boundry of HT's (not to many fronts at one time) rule might be hard..

In short given enough time to think about it and maybe have a map made specifficly for this setup it might be possible but in the current maps I think it might be hard to accomplish and make it work well and within the current rules.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: scottydawg on December 06, 2006, 02:49:43 PM: I kinda like the idea of full cap zones (all bases in a zone must be captured in order to move to the next zone), but might wish it to be laid out more like fronts.

Also like the ports (and maybe a few outlying fields) to be always capturable.
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Laurie on December 06, 2006, 03:05:10 PM: CC this was more of a long term idea to be fiddled with and hopefully in some mutated form appear in game IF this system is used, cant say im in favour of LW orange but, this would be a fairly neutral system.

[edit: thank you for hosting it scottydawg ~~, its appreciated.]~~
Title: Flayed1 Can you do me a favor?
Post by: Flayed1 on December 07, 2006, 09:45:51 AM: HT just saw a problem with the arrows I missed when I loged into orange this morning.... At A47 and V56 they are one way's on the main inside loop... so bish currently can't get any of that line back.....

So much for having me check your work huh :D Sorry hope I do better next time :)