Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: FrodeMk3 on December 03, 2006, 02:37:36 PM
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Hey, I need to pick a few brains on this subject. Ever since AHI, I've been able to wade into a furball and more or less hold my own (1-4 kills, then get shot down.) However, I've noticed now, I'm usually more outnumbered in the vicinity. I was in LW Orange, trying to find a fight where I did'nt have 6 friendlies on one con. So, I flew over the skirmish line fights, and went back towards the NME field a little. I found a friendly on the deck in trouble. I dove in, but said countryman was in a chute before I could get within 2k of his antoganists. At that point, I was facing 6 to 1 odds. I was in a Ki-84, and I could'nt run from some of the planes in the area(Saw at least one LA-7.) So, I elected to fight it out.
What I'm looking for, are some tips and tricks to be able to even the odds a little, before I'm stuck doing nothing but evasives, from 3 v 1 and more odds. I was only able to make one firing pass (which was evaded) and from then on, It was only a matter of time till I got shot down. I don't want to resort to flying nothing but an LA-7, But it's starting to look that way.
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Switch to the country with #'s :aok :lol
edit: What part of Cali you in?
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Hey kam...I'm in Bakersfield, about 100 miles N of LA.
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Don't just dive in, scan the situation on radar, dar bar on whole sector.
PS kamilyun u forgot to ignore ball
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If you're really that worried about surviving, stay out of 6 to 1 fights. ;)
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Yea duh jus basically said it... Dont just dive into a fight...before you commit to a target scan the sky for any potential high cons looking for an easy pick... Take a look at the ENM dar bar on the map and see how it is compared to Friendly... If dar is Big but You see no one around that only means one thing: that their on their way....get ur alt up and get ready for the wave of ENM cons.....
Its all about Situational Awarness...
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Originally posted by duh
PS kamilyun u forgot to ignore ball
Thanks. I added him :D
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this persin is on yor ignor list to see this post clik herre
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OMG the the most genius thing ive seen all year furball, hubs! :D
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
At that point, I was facing 6 to 1 odds. I was in a Ki-84, and I could'nt run from some of the planes in the area(Saw at least one LA-7.) So, I elected to fight it out.
Could have outclimbed most of them..
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Platano, normally the topic of this thread would seem like a stupid question. The reason I've put this forth, is because I have personally witnessed Fester pull off 4-6 vs 1 odds, and I know other sticks have done it. The problem is, If I become unwilling to dive into a furball, then what point in upping a plane at all? To me, I get the most fun out of getting into as much of a situation I can handle, and still have some chance of survival.
But lately, the furballs' in Orange seem...Too big.
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we need films frode, then we can for sure say 'you shoulda done this' or 'shouldnt of done this' maybe. hard to lend advice when we dont know what you usually do in that situation.
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Really, there's no formula for it, and there's no tried and true strategy. Every fight is different, even if it's the same 7 guys every time. It's part gunnery, a lot SA, part knowing what your plane can do, what the other guys' can do, not being the first guy to make a serious mistake, spotting the guy who does make one, starting situation, everyone's alt, speed, etc etc.
That being said, the only way to get better at that kind of thing, is to keep at it. Watch some films, yours and others, and try to figure out what you could have done better, or instead, and then to track all 102 factors in the middle of the fight, and hope the other guys aren't doing the same. GL. ;)
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Ty guys, I'll try and get some films posted. I appreciate all the input <
>
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
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Originally posted by Ball
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BAH! PUNKS! :mad: :furious
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Originally posted by TW9
Could have outclimbed most of them..
and rope the silly little buggers...
did that in my first niki sortie for like 3 years.... roped 3 guys in ONE rope....lol
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Just keep doing it. You can only get better. The rtb is over-rated, and the planes cost 15 bucks a month whether you land it or not.
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Your best options when outnumbered are to stay high and stay fast. Conserve E as much as you can with shallow turns. Chandelle to maintain energy and grab altitude. Ki-84 WILL out run a good chunk of the plane set at many alts, so drag the La-7 out from the pack where you can turn him to death. If you've got a good enough head start you might be able to pull him away from his buddies to 1v1 him before they can catch up (note that most La drivers are one-pass wonders in the main. They make their one mach-speed pass, and if they blow even a little of their advantage will turn tail and run hoping you follow so they can shoot you in the back when you disengage).
If you still had enough of an E advantage after your initial dive, you should have been able to zoom out and then use the 84's straight climb advantage to disengage.
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
Ty guys, I'll try and get some films posted. I appreciate all the input <>
SA is the number one thing. I flew with Wax in AH1 and have yet to see someone with better SA than him. But, what I started doing was listening to music on WMP while flying, I turned it up to the point where I was constantly on the hats and keypad. It works, and I still do it to this day.
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Originally posted by FiLtH
Just keep doing it. You can only get better. The rtb is over-rated, and the planes cost 15 bucks a month whether you land it or not.
some like to do more than kill and die.... some like compleating there mission, and RTBing... these people often dont HO and do other dweeby stuff......
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This is simple...... I just fly bombers at 20 some odd thousand feet over the furball.... I have a great furball survival rate using this meathod. :p
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LOL I think Frode knows that staying high and cherry picking is one way to survive. I dont think this is lost on many except the completely new.
Overlag, this thread was more about how to fight in overwhelming numbers not how to do the safety dance with little risk. What you add is little help to frode or anyone, dont you think?? No disrespect meant.
Frode: It's all about SA, angles and defense. In these fights you have to stay on the defensive and wait for the other guys to make mistakes that you can capitalize on, without making any mistakes yourself. That is why this is so challenging and fun when it starts to gel for you.
You need to pull into anyone that is about to jump on your six thus taking away their shot. Try to pull into them in such a way that you get them all going in the same direction, thus grouping them so they aren't coming at you from all different directions. There are no hard fast rules on how to do this, just instinct and most of all experience and good SA. When you do pull you want to pull just hard enough to stay out of their shot vector, but not so hard you kill a lot of E. But sometimes you dont have a choice.
Don't climb no matter what, unless you have an e advantage over all of them. This doesn't mean don't pull up for a few second to perform a wing over type move, but the last thing you want is to be nose up and slow where your maneuverability and roll rate ( ability to change direction quickly ) is majorly reduced.
You need to get comfortable with guys crawling up your six and breaking at the last moment, then rolling back into them. This comes with recognizing when they are that close but don't have a shot. you need to read their thrust vector and speed in relation to their shot vector so you know when they are in close but can't hit you. The best way to do this is fly on the deck for a while and allow yourself to be BnZd. If you can outlast a BnZ pilot, never giving him a shot, it forces you learn how to wait to the last moment to break and it forces you to wait till they make a mistake.
Once you get guys in close they are easier to out maneuver and kill, rather than just avoid their attack. If you get them all in close and grouped together you can fight them all as one and your odds get better.
know off the bat that this is a hard road to master, but once you do this game takes on a whole new perspective. Then you realize what edge of your seat, heart racing action really means.
As hub, et-al have said there is no set recipe, you just have to accrue enough experiences and a skill set that only comes from being in these situations enough times to learn the skills necessary to survive and do well in them. Yeah at the beginning you will die a lot, but it will start to come together if you stay at it and you will realize why pure ACM is one of the most satisfying aspects of this game for many. And being outnumbered and holding your own kind of the Holy Grail. Most of all be very aggressive. Anytime you hear about the guys that were successful in real life they alway talk about these types being very aggressive.
You have to ask yourself tho, do you have what it takes to take your lumps and get better? If you do the payoff is great when you start winning 3 V 1, 4 V 1, etc.
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The reason guys like Lev survive fights like that is they make every opportunity for a snapshot count, and not just raking a badguy, they kill it. Gunnery is #1 in my book. I can fly and survive in 2-4 vs 1 for a decent amount of time, but I only rarely get any killing snapshots, but Lev does nearly every shot he takes. I know Fester has unreal gunnery too, thats probably how he did it.
I dont think outright flying skills do it, its making the most fleeting of snapshots a killshot that makes bad odds fighting survivable.
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Absolutely Grits!!!! But you need the flying to stay alive long enough to get the opportunity for those shots.
I'm in your boat.
I would love to hear from Elf boy(Lev), Drex, Sax, Laz, Toad, Slap, Furb, Stang et-al who I have watched alone down in the weeds completely surrounded. I dive in to help, die and as I am flying back to the fight they are RTB with all the kills LOL :rofl
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I know from fighting guys like Stang, Lev, Furball that they dont miss those low % shots that most do. I will do a move against them that gives a low % shot, that the average person misses so I dont hessitate to do it, but those guys DONT miss those shots. BluKitty, Yucca, the list is actually quite long, but think of anybody that the community thinks of as "really good" and they have gunnery in the top 1%. Sure they can outfly most people, but what makes them deadly in a furball is their gunnery. Give any of those guys the most brief of low% shots and at best you are flying away with parts missing, but usually you are in the tower thinking WTF just happened?
On the other hand, I have won lots of fights where my opponent outflew me, but they couldnt make the low % snapshots, and I did.
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LOL ok Grits so you are saying that all you need to survive in this game is be able to make great shots lol.
Yes I agree that being able to make those great shots makes a big difference, but if you don't give up those shots then it comes down to flying.
On the same thought, If all I do is practice my shooting then I will be as good as Lev et-al. I don't think so.
Let's face it, if all you had to be was a good shot then all Top Gun would be is lessons on target practice. :aok
But yes the combination of great ACM skill and excellent gunnery is deadly.
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And on the Eighth Day sayeth the Lord, "Man shall have pissing contests every day no matter how trivial the subject."
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Originally posted by Quah!
LOL ok Grits so you are saying that all you need to survive in this game is be able to make great shots lol.
Yes I agree that being able to make those great shots makes a big difference, but if you don't give up those shots then it comes down to flying.
On the same thought, If all I do is practice my shooting then I will be as good as Lev et-al. I don't think so.
Let's face it, if all you had to be was a good shot then all Top Gun would be is lessons on target practice. :aok
But yes the combination of great ACM skill and excellent gunnery is deadly.
great gunnery is needed since in a furball u arent going to know whos trying to set u up for a gun solution all the time. and the longer u are trying to get one on somebody else the more and more likely ur getting homed in on.
the more quick snapshots u can get off the more u will have a chance of making it out.. More so than just pure skill alone..
ps i own u :aok . check avatar
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The 1337 QUAHck has spokend! You are wrong, grits! ONLY Quah knows the path to enlightenment.
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Find one place I said great gunnery isn't needed.
But great gunnery alone won't help you survive.
As for a pissing contest, not so, I would call these a conversation, Grits knows I have the upmost respect for him.
On the other hand hub it teh l33t of ghey :)
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Originally posted by Quah!
LOL ok Grits so you are saying that all you need to survive in this game is be able to make great shots lol.
Nope both flying ability and gunnery are crucial. What I am saying is those "greats" are far above me and most other people in both flying and gunnery, but their gunnery is what really separates them from the herd.
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Originally posted by Grits
but their gunnery is what really separates them from the herd.
that an their ability to somehow make u regret being on their 6 :aok
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Well no doubt, what I and I am sure others would like to hear is what ACM values, you guys, (Tw and Grits) would look for in a furball other then the fairly obvious although completely valid, being a crack shot.
I wasn't trying to puff out my chest or come off like an expert, but here is a conversation many could participate in that would have a lot of value and be more fun reading than 11 pages of whines about game play. ;)
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Frode, i had a similar question long ago... maybe the answers help you as well....
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=156424
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Originally posted by Quah!
I would love to hear from Elf boy(Lev), Drex, Sax, Laz, Toad, Slap, Furb, Stang et-al who I have watched alone down in the weeds completely surrounded. I dive in to help, die and as I am flying back to the fight they are RTB with all the kills LOL :rofl
How cute, BK's have a fanboi!
Know where your opponents are, and when you can afford to go for a shot, dont go for a shot if it means you are giving a shooting opportunity to one of your opponents.
The noob mistake while outnumbered is just to concentrate on one con (the "i will take one with me" attitude), i dont want to take one with me - i want to kill them all! Separate each attack and take it as it comes in, try to make it so that on your reversals you are giving yourself the chance to kill them without breaking your stride.
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well of course it depends on the situation.. kind of have to think a few manuevers ahead.. i mean if u make one e draining hard break for 1 con ur probably setting urself up for the next guy to pick u.. its also good to do evasives that will give u a shot for roughly 1 second maybe 2 if u pul it off good ie.. for some reason i end up trying to put myself at an attacking cons high 10ish oclock when they're in on me and slide in behind them as they're going by. so u dont want to just evade the con. that just leaves u where u started. u want to bait him into and angle inwhich u can get a gun solution on em while he's going by... that way theres 1 less con u have to worry about..
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Originally posted by FrodeMk3
I don't want to resort to flying nothing but an LA-7, But it's starting to look that way.
You need to learn what your plane can do. Ki84 with e (you said you were diving in) should have owned them or be able to clime away. Nothing can out clime it and if anyone tried to follow you up, he would be an easy kill. My point is that even if you were in a lala you would have died. You got slow making one pass and that was it.
The plane does not matter if you don't know how to use it. Ki84 is better than the LA7, unless for you better is faster. In anycase, learn your planes and you would have taken a couple with you.
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Originally posted by Ball
How cute, BK's have a fanboi!
Know where your opponents are, and when you can afford to go for a shot, dont go for a shot if it means you are giving a shooting opportunity to one of your opponents.
The noob mistake while outnumbered is just to concentrate on one con (the "i will take one with me" attitude), i dont want to take one with me - i want to kill them all! Separate each attack and take it as it comes in, try to make it so that on your reversals you are giving yourself the chance to kill them without breaking your stride.
Right, this where ACM, SA, and gunnery all come together. I still make that mistake of staying on one target too long. Reverse one, and instantly check your 6 and locate the others before you return to the one you just reversed. The 2-4 vs 1's that I survive the longest (and on the very rare occasion win) are the ones I have opponents that give separation and the fight is really several 1v1's instead of all attacking at the same time. The ones that are tough are the ones where all 3-4 press the attack at the same time and they dont take separate spaced attacks.
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Originally posted by Overlag
some like to do more than kill and die.... some like compleating there mission, and RTBing... these people often dont HO and do other dweeby stuff......
And some folks rely on horsepower to fight for em. Too each their own.
"Its got a HEMI!"
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just fly a la7 at 500mph and hope someone ends up infront
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Ive found in AH the lethality factor is so high, enabling alot of deadly snapshots that I do not enjoy furballing because all I ever do is takeoff, and Im the type that likes to land. So there is nothing I can say here that hasn't already been said.
Interesting question though.
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Who are you calling a BK, Ball? I'm insulted, hear! Insulted! :D
Anyway, Quah, usually the only reason I get out of a mess like that after having gotten INTO it in the first place is either a LOT of luck, a LOT of dumb bandits or bad shots, or someone seeing my predicament and clearing one or two off (who knows, maybe that ill-fated rescue attempt bought the time and space I needed ;) ).
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Successfully negotiating a complex engagement is pure joy for me. It is what 'floats my boat'. The process itself is half instinct and half systematic pre-meditation. There are a few key components:
1) Patience-On each shot and when picking your prey.
2) Discretion- Know when to cut n' run and when to go balls to the wall.
3) Flexibilty-Take in everything, targets of opportunity abound, adapt to your surroundings and the evolving combat situation.
4) SA-The more you can keep track of while engaged the better, friendly and enemy. Have a general idea of relative E states of as many cons as you can, predict and visualize their probable locations and vectors while not actually looking at them, really good SA is almost like clairvoyant ESP in this regard.
5) Gunnery- Hit hard and fast, killing quickly is a factor of gunnery, bad gunnery means slow kills. If you kill slowly your're going to get saddled, cherry picked and gang-banged no matter how good of a pilot your are.
I see alot of mistakes repeated over and over that cause otherwise skilled players fail to be sucessful in complex engagements, here are some of them:
1) Blow all of their E/options on the first con they come across.
2) Over-commit to one enemy, a furball is full of targets, don't put all of your eggs in one basket, your goal is to kill as many as you can and live...
3) Falling for what I call the 'suck-drag', the 'suck-drag' can be the horizontal or vertical version. In either version you are allowing the enemy to pull you to friends and/or blow too much E. Remember the runner actually has the initiative over the chaser, he is determining when/if/how/where you will be forced to fight.
4) Poor gunnery is death assured for the furballer, in a complex engagement if you cannot kill quickly you're going to get saddled, cherry picked and gang banged ALOT.
There are a few routines and practices that will guarentee some success:
1) Before Engaging always have an exit strategy and save the E to execute it if need be.
2) Don't get 'married' to one con, stay flexible and take out targets of opportunity as the chances arise even if it means letting a fish off the hook.
3) After blowing some E for a kill don't flush the rest down the toilet in an un-educated frenzy. Re-gain some of the lost E if you are under no immeditate threat, re-assess the situation and the ebb n' flow of the battle, get your SA back up then re-engage on your terms.
4) If you are in an E fighter give preference to enemy faster than you. If in a TnB plane give preference to enemy that can out-turn you while your E state is still high. This will enhance your survivability in your local fight area.
5) Be aware of friendlies around you, have some knowledge of what they tend to do. Just because they have a friendly icon doesn't mean they can be counted on to do the most predictable/desireable thing. For example, some players are always heavy and will never engage until they get their ord to target. Some players blow all of their E at the drop of a hat to swirl around on the deck in a death spiral with 5 enemy until they inevitably get shot down. Some friends are great for pulling enemy out of the pack vertically (roping) or horizonally (dragging). Knowing all of this will help you survive and cull the herd of enemy planes at minimal risk.
I hope this helps...
Zazen
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Here is a film of me surviving a 4 v 1. It starts out as a 4 v 2, and my wingie dies because I got too far away from him. I dont do anything special in this other than survive, I only kill one badguy with guns, the others are proxies. I did do a good job of not locking on to one guy for very long, as soon as I reverse one, another is close on my 6. Hope someone might get something helpful out of it.
4v1 (http://www.the-gunfighters.org/AvA-Spit8_0001.ahf)
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Originally posted by Grits
Here is a film of me surviving a 4 v 1. It starts out as a 4 v 2, and my wingie dies because I got too far away from him. I dont do anything special in this other than survive, I only kill one badguy with guns, the others are proxies. I did do a good job of not locking on to one guy for very long, as soon as I reverse one, another is close on my 6. Hope someone might get something helpful out of it.
4v1 (http://www.the-gunfighters.org/AvA-Spit8_0001.ahf)
lol good film grits.. best part was the end "whered they all go?" as jenks augers.. :rofl