Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Husky01 on December 05, 2006, 02:11:23 PM
-
I have noticed that the P-38 is very underestamated in Aces High why so? It goes vert with almost anything is pretty fast, and out turn most planes when using flaps. So why is it not used all that much like the spit or la7?
-
Because people watch me and say "Oh, he can't possibly be THAT bad, it must be the plane."
-
Originally posted by Husky01
I have noticed that the P-38 is very underestamated in Aces High why so? It goes vert with almost anything is pretty fast, and out turn most planes when using flaps. So why is it not used all that much like the spit or la7?
shhhh dont tell everyone....
i dont fly them that often....but when i do i normally get over 8K/D on them.
of corse being twin engined its great for taking damage, and still dragging you home. I once had a fight vs the "congo" line of planes hitting my bases.... had 6kills before people got wise, got another 2 before a spit managed to kill my engine just before he flopped over in a rope-de-dope...
however now, im 75miles away from the nearest "safe" base, and only have 1 engine and one aileron. the fight to fly that back was rough.... but to top it off a p51D (who i had killed 3 times) was chasing me these 3 sectors home... i got to friendly ack just as he got to 2k....
the P38 is only a great plane if you know how to use it.... and to be fair, whenever anyone asks whats the best plane to fly... most will say LA7, Niki or P51.... so thats why newbies get stuck on those planes.
-
its hard to fly
comes apart easily
absorbs flak like a tire
-
As a long time P-38 flier, I can say with certainty that the reason why the P-38 isn't a very popular airplane in the simulator is because it is incorrectly modelled. In the simulator, given roughly equal pilots and equal energy states, the 38 doesn't outroll anything, doesn't outturn any of its popular opponents other than the P-47 and FW-190, doesn't outclimb Spitfires and Me-109s, and isn't one of the fastest ships in the planeset. To boot, it's quite fragile, it's a huge target, and locks up in a dive at any altitude. The only truly great feature of the P-38 in the simulator is the gentle stall handling (which still isn't as gentle as the real P-38's).
Don't get me wrong, it's not a miserable fighter in the simulator. It's just not good enough to keep up with the competition. It's not nearly as good as it was in real life. The real P-38 was a lot faster, turned better, did not compress below 15,000 feet, and was virtually impossible to spin unless the pilot was cross-controlling or using differential power. I recommend reading Warren Bodie's book. He's the only author to take the time to talk to Clarence "Kelly" Johnson, co-designer of the P-38. Bodie's book contains an exclusive foreword by Johnson himself, stating that it is the most accurate account he has read.
-
Originally posted by Husky01
I have noticed that the P-38 is very underestamated in Aces High why so? It goes vert with almost anything is pretty fast, and out turn most planes when using flaps. So why is it not used all that much like the spit or la7?
Because it's a bomber silly :aok
-
Originally posted by Kazaa
Because it's a bomber silly
Drop dead, limey.
-
If you are a good driver its a kickass plane. Its also a huge target and flypaper in a dogfight.
-
As a long time P-38 flier, I can say with certainty that the reason why the P-38 isn't a very popular airplane in the simulator is because it is incorrectly modelled.
Why am I not surprised, to see this comment from you?
In the simulator, given roughly equal pilots and equal energy states, the 38 doesn't outroll anything, doesn't outturn any of its popular opponents other than the P-47 and FW-190, doesn't outclimb Spitfires and Me-109s, and isn't one of the fastest ships in the planeset. To boot, it's quite fragile, it's a huge target, and locks up in a dive at any altitude.
As it should be.
The only truly great feature of the P-38 in the simulator is the gentle stall handling (which still isn't as gentle as the real P-38's).
You've flown P-38s before?
Don't get me wrong, it's not a miserable fighter in the simulator. It's just not good enough to keep up with the competition.
You obviously haven't seen the TEDs of Ah in action.
It's not nearly as good as it was in real life. The real P-38 was a lot faster
No.
turned better
Doubtful.
did not compress below 15,000 feet
"compression" and "heavy controls" is not the same thing
and was virtually impossible to spin unless the pilot was cross-controlling or using differential power.
debatable.
I recommend reading Warren Bodie's book. He's the only author to take the time to talk to Clarence "Kelly" Johnson, co-designer of the P-38. Bodie's book contains an exclusive foreword by Johnson himself, stating that it is the most accurate account he has read.
Most probably.
-
lol Kweassa, that got some giggles out of me :D
-
With the 80th flying the P38 nearly exclusively in the MA, we have made great strides in lowering the expectations of the P-38 and it's capabilities.
-
38 an awesome plane if you know how to fly it. It can catch people by surprise. I fly it all the time and I dont think its undermodeld. If it flew as well as you say it did in real life then it would have been the ultimate fighter of WWII. It held its own but wasnt THE BEST. Its pretty much the same in AH. It does everything well (except roll) but its not the best at anything.
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
it's a huge target, and locks up in a dive at any altitude.
I disagree with these points. The side, front and rear profiles of the 38 is actually smaller than most of the planeset, you just have to know how to give your opponant the smallest target to aim for. Also, with cross controlling and dive brakes a dive can be controlled to the point where it is posible to drop 10k+ straight onto an enemy plane, something I've done often to 262's.
-
Originally posted by TinmanX
I disagree with these points. The side, front and rear profiles of the 38 is actually smaller than most of the planeset, you just have to know how to give your opponant the smallest target to aim for. Also, with cross controlling and dive brakes a dive can be controlled to the point where it is posible to drop 10k+ straight onto an enemy plane, something I've done often to 262's.
Your comments about the profiles is absolutely correct, however, in a turning fight you're looking at planform far more often than the other profiles and it looses big time there. Someone once said he could get a barndoor to fly if given enough power and the 38 pretty much looks like he was right.;)
-
its the best at looking awesom.
-
Originally posted by Monty405
its the best at looking awesom.
I concur. Wholeheartedly.
-
I tangled with a p-38 in my spit9. He did a damn good job of making me work for the kill, and it was the ground that did him in, not (wholly) me. He told me that the secret to turn- fighting in a p-38 was to keep either a quarter or eighth tanks of gas in the wings. I think he said he upped with 75% fuel, then burned each wing off individually to the desired level, then just switched to the main tank and left it there.
-
Benny, I would say that quite a few of the bad points that you mention in your post about the P-38, are shared by many other planes in this game. For example, a spit is a great turner, and is fast, But it isn't the fastest plane in the game. Nor, is it considered the absolute best turner. But, It has a good mix of those qualities. I believe that is true of the P-38, as well. When you're in the game, you need to talk to somebody who flies the 38 regularly, like Ack-Ack, and watch them.
Besides, in RL, you would'nt hear a complaint from Richard Bong or Thomas McGuire, or Larry "Scrappy" Blumer.
-
I fear no 38 co alt co E and i don't care how good the pilot is. Its a shame but the 38 is a Flynn target for me. I flew it last week and couldn't get over what a pos it is. If you don't have a advantage in a 38 your dead. Its does hold e well but go below 300 mph its a slug. Basically to be good in a 38 you need alt and more alt. Like ack-ack sorry but its tru, great pilot but to use the 38 you need to be 20k.
Case closed and if anyone would like to prove me wrong i will be on all night for some DA fun.
You pick the ride
ki 84 and 67
all spits including spit 1
nikki
la5 and 7
all f4u's
all 109's
Hurri 1 and 2
i would be ok with the 190a5 but that need some testing
yak for sure
co alt co e 10k i would be willing to do a A20
-
Originally posted by FX1
I fear no 38 co alt co E and i don't care how good the pilot is. Its a shame but the 38 is a Flynn target for me. I flew it last week and couldn't get over what a pos it is. If you don't have a advantage in a 38 your dead. Its does hold e well but go below 300 mph its a slug. Basically to be good in a 38 you need alt and more alt. Like ack-ack sorry but its tru, great pilot but to use the 38 you need to be 20k.
Case closed and if anyone would like to prove me wrong i will be on all night for some DA fun.
You pick the ride
ki 84 and 67
all spits including spit 1
nikki
la5 and 7
all f4u's
all 109's
Hurri 1 and 2
i would be ok with the 190a5 but that need some testing
yak for sure
co alt co e 10k i would be willing to do a A20
ok
-
Need a chest thumping emoticon, lolz.
-
Just got po'ed at the 38 last week. Felt like a newb in it and thought to myself its a shame that the 38 is modelled like it is.
I am not a history aviation guy but the 38 must have had some strong points.
-
It has many strong points. It's just not as nimble as the Spixteen, and you'll get killed every time trying to fly it the same way.
-
Posted by Stang
"Need a chest thumping emoticon, lolz."
(http://213.131.227.84/~old/d/evil-smiley-face.jpg)
I like that one.
-
to think that i've been flying it at 8k and below into hordes with the rest of the 80th. sheesh, i always wondered what i was doing wrong.
-
Monty405 - "its the best at looking awesom."
I was ok with pretty much everything in this thread until I got to that! Dang near choked on my grilled cheese sandwich! Have you not seen the Corsairs????? How could anything even dare to compare with, let alone exceed a plane like the F4U???
My personal opinion regarding the 38, is that it is blamed for performance issues which are really the fault of the pilot. Few people in this game actually stick with a plane long enough to learn its strengths and weaknesses, and how to capitolize on the plane the other guy is flying.
I for one thought the F4U really lacked after the first few months I played the game. I was wrong of course. I stuck with it because it's always been my favorite, and now I seldom fly anything else. There are not any planes in the set that give me problems, but rather pilots that give me problems, and it doesn't really seem to matter what plane they fly.
The 38, like the f4U and others, is GOOD at lots of things, even if it isn't the best. It's not really BAD at much either. Fly it enough, learn it inside and out, and you will be dangerous in it.
I remember a pilot named "Pellik" that was phenomenal in the 38. In a good fight, I could last as long as 10-15 seconds against him. I'm sure he concentrated on the strengths of the 38, and preyed on the weaknesses of his opponents, and didn't spend too much time dwelling on the things the 38 "should have been better at" whether in this game or in RL. There are others like him in this game, that excel at flying certain planes.
I'm guessing that if you stick with the 38 for 6 months or so, and fly it and little else, and supplement that with some time in the DA with some of the better sticks, you'll start turning heads. It's a painful start for sure, but it will be worth it if you really like the 38. Most people in this game don't fly any plane enough to really get more than maybe 50% of its abilities to show. Especially with the difficult planes, they fly them for a bit and then give up and go back to the easier planes. The easier planes are flown often enough for folks to get fairly good in them. This leads to some of the easier planes being labeled as "uber".
One danger not often addressed with learning a plane in detail, and also developing a high level of SA regarding your opponents, is that you will likely be accused of UFO flying, and possibly even cheating. Then they'll start with the "that plane is so over-modelled " whines. How could someone fly that plane so well, when they couldn't get it to fly like that???
Bummer eh?
PS. I for one truly stink in the 38!
-
Originally posted by Stang
It has many strong points. It's just not as nimble as the Spixteen, and you'll get killed every time trying to fly it the same way.
Tru its not my ride our style.
Stang your one of the 10 guys flynn in the game at this point do you ever fly a 38?
-
ok I have posted this film before, and for some reason my name was deleated ..i ithink its because when that guy kept making new names and trolling. Anyway, this is me and Creton. I think we can agree Creton is THE BEST K4 pilot in this game and he certainly is Top5 overall as far as all around pilots go. Now I dont remember the particulars of this film but i know its 38 vs 109k4. I would get in more detail but im at work and cant really watch this at the moment. If i recall we had something like 4 fights and we split them 2 to 2. I dont know if they are all on this film.
FX1 i know youre pretty good but you would prolly conceed that creton is better in a 109. Im just posting this to show you that a well flown 38 can hold its own when flown correctly. Its a HARD plane to fly. Its not a spit...you cant throw it around like one. You need to be smooth and cordinated.
http://members.cox.net/fyreice/creton.ahf (http://members.cox.net/fyreice/creton.ahf)
-
creton is always a fun guy to fight. a good point about the 38 is that you need to be clear in your mind about what you are trying to do, then do it without making mistakes. when flying it to the limit, as with any plane, but even more so at times with the 38, you need to be in complete control. it does not fly like good turning planes, but can still be affective....but when you screw up that tends to be it. roll is terrible, climb is very good. turning is good at mid range speeds. gentle stall can be an asset, and i always have a blast throwing in around at stall speeds.
on thing i've noticed in fighting creton, is that when i've had shots on him, he works on showing me the slimmest profile possible, even in rolling scissor fights. it is one thing that i've tried (i repeat tried) to take away from the few fights i've had with him, as it is invaluable skill for the 38. not always possible, but i am always thinking about what i have exposed. errr ya.
-
Originally posted by FX1
Tru its not my ride our style.
Stang your one of the 10 guys flynn in the game at this point do you ever fly a 38?
The question you should ask yourself is do you ever fly the P-38? Sounds like you rarely do but yet comment on it like you're an expert.
ack-ack
-
As with all the other planes in the Arena.
In the right hands the 38 is an outstanding plane.
But its not an EZmode plane so you wont see as many people in it.
But for those who have taken the time to learn it properly.
It is one of the best and mot dangerous in the game.
Unfortunately, Like the P51, FW, Early model 109s and Jugs most dont take the time to learn how to learn it peoperly.
I dont regularly fly the 38 But it only takes me about 3 seconds to recognise someone who knows it.
If they do I know Im in for a tough fight.
If they dont I know Im getting some fast food for dinner :D
-
The real P-38 easily outturned any fighter Germany produced in the war, and each engine was capable of about 2,000 horsepower. Ground crews regularly set the engines to ratings in excess of 1,800 horsepower.
Originally posted by FrodeMk3
in RL, you would'nt hear a complaint from Richard Bong or Thomas McGuire, or Larry "Scrappy" Blumer.
That's because they got real P-38s and not undermodelled pieces of junk.
-
I don't know. I kind of like my old 38G. Does everything i want it to.
Having never flown a real 38, i'd be pushing it to claim it's designed wrong in here.
I'm an average stick at best, and I feel confident going up against any other plane in it. There are those times I run into a far better pilot then me, and then I'm toast, but that's my fault not my 38G.
-
Originally posted by FX1
Tru its not my ride our style.
Stang your one of the 10 guys flynn in the game at this point do you ever fly a 38?
I fly the 38 when the whim strikes me... I love the plane, but like you it doesn't fit me the best. I usually like to go against superior numbers and the 38 isn't great at that unless it has alt. However, I usually land more kills in it than I do in the 109 or spit. You just have to be a tad more patient in it, and know when to dump the flaps and get slow, and especially when not to.
It's all Corky's fault...
:furious
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
That's because they got real P-38s and not undermodelled pieces of junk.
:rofl
You're off your rocker, noob.
Fly the 38 against a zeke and I think you'll like it much better... in fact it should be untouchable in that situation. That's what Bong and the boys flew against. They never had to deal with the Spit XVI or La7 in it.
The P-38 is a great plane.
-
The 38 is easy to fly tough to master...:cool:
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
The real P-38 easily outturned any fighter Germany produced in the war, and each engine was capable of about 2,000 horsepower. Ground crews regularly set the engines to ratings in excess of 1,800 horsepower.
That's because they got real P-38s and not undermodelled pieces of junk.
I would hardly classify the P-38 as an undermodelled piece of junk in AH. True, not all the stuff is modeled as it was, such as HP ratings for the engines but it's hardly the gimped plane you make it out to be.
It's a jack of all trades, not a master in one area but like the Hellcat, it can perform in all areas quite well. A lot also depends on the pilot but that seems to be lost on a lot in here that think that it's all plane and the pilot is secondary. So some players see guys that are experienced in the P-38 make it dance in the sky and then they try and do it themselves only to end up cannon fodder because they can't do what the experienced P-38 pilot does and then they label the plane as undermodeled or a POS since they don't know how to properly get all they can get out of the plane.
Just my dos centavos.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Stang
It's all Corky's fault...
:furious
Really? I thought it was Dose's fault.
ack-ack
-
I was under the impression that the P38 was underflown, not underestimated. It's like every other plane, I suppose- it's great when it's flown to its strengths, and crappy when it's not.
BTW goldie, why the name change?
-
the rv38 is a much better plane
(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/images/rv38.jpg)
-
Husky01 has 430 posts yet I've never seen him before.
:noid :noid :noid
-
Originally posted by Murdr
the rv38 is a much better plane
(http://479th.jasminemarie.com/images/rv38.jpg)
Tonight I pushed an RV-8 to 504 mph diving from 20,000 feet.... About 280 mph beyond VnE.... Controls didn't even stiffen. Filmed it too.
Our P-38J has a turn radius of around 580 feet with full flaps. It's a heavy airplane. In contrast, the Spit16 has a turn radius of 445 feet. No genius required to see what wins in a flat turning contest... Which is why a decent P-38J pilot won't get into that situation. However, a good F6F pilot will flat turn with the Spit16 and eat it alive... Each plane has its strengths and weaknesses. Good pilots fight to their plane's strengths and try to lure the enemy into fighting to his weaknesses. Really skilled pilots can utilize everything their plane has to offer. That makes them very dangerous.
My regards,
Widewing
-
awww hell... widewing... don't tell me that... I always end up turning with spit16's.
I get the sickening feeling that this is going to be like one of those roadrunner cartoons where the coyote doesn't fall until he looks down. :)
-
Strange this topic came up after i was going to fly the 38 this camp. It took about 8 hours to strike that idea.
I did like the load out
1-DT
1-1000 lbs
50 fuel
Sounds perfect 25 mins in the air 1 egg for a gv, 150 cannon and 2000 mg's. Also i loved the skins and the views are better than the new f4u.
Cool bird but its a "duck" and couldn't bring myself to fly with the hoard our fly at mount Everest heights.
-
Originally posted by Husky01
So why is it not used all that much like the spit or la7?
The P38 has an elitest society of cartoon plane pilots. The Hierarchy tree looks like this:
5% - The Secret Society of P38 Pilots:noid
20% - Those that think they are good, but only know how to BnZ
15% - Those that try, and fail miserably to fight in it
60% - Those that use it for bombing
Hense why it is rare to come across a P38 that flies on the edge of the P38 envelope.
-
Benny, what you probably should do is ask HiTech, and ask him what resources that he uses for modeling a plane(I.E., Jane's, Defense Department research files, Other open publications, etc.?) Sources are known to differ...and he might have been forced to go on only 1 or 2, instead of cross-referencing more. I agree with Ack-Ack, though. The plane can do multiple tasks, which is what makes it great.
-
Having gone against both good 38 pilots, and poor ones. and eveything inbetween I'd have to say that my conclusion is that the 38 isnt modeled wrong so much as its probably flown wrong by those that complain about it.
When in capable hands and when flown correctly the 38 is tough to beat.
-
Originally posted by Soulyss
awww hell... widewing... don't tell me that... I always end up turning with spit16's.
I get the sickening feeling that this is going to be like one of those roadrunner cartoons where the coyote doesn't fall until he looks down. :)
I wouldn't worry too much. I'll bet there aren't 10 guys who can turn a 445 foot radius for more than 90 degrees without dumping a wing and spinning out of the turn. That level of turning ability is what the plane can do, most pilots will never even get close to it.
A typical example can be seen in this film. (http://home.att.net/~ww2aviation/109K-4-Spits.ahf) I'm being pursued by a Spit16 and a Spit1. I'm flying a 109K-4 in the TA and pull it into a left-hand lufberry. Neither pilot was able to match my turn radius or turn rate. Their aircraft were able, but they were not. Watch it from the fixed position with the vertical slider all the way down. This will allow you to watch from directly above. Turn on Trails to see the actual turning circles.
Knowing what your plane is capable of and being able to fly it on that edge continuously can make up for the difference on paper, so to speak.
My regards,
Widewing
-
See Rule #4
-
The real P-38 easily outturned any fighter Germany produced in the war.
The Germans had essentially only two fighters. The bulkier Fw190, in the game, is easily outturned by any P-38. The lighter 109, less than half of what the P-38 weighs, with a more favorable power loading and smaller wing loading, has a much smaller turning circle than the P-38. But many P-38s are davantageous in instantaneous turning capabilities which often makes it more than a match for a 109, especially on the offensive vertical, not to mention the later Bf109K-4 is thoroughly outturned by the P-38.
So we've got the in-game P-38 easily outturning more than 60% of in-game German fighters, on par with at least 30% of them, and decisively outturned by only the earliest two models of 109s, the E and the F.
So how is this supposed to be "modelled wrong" again?
and each engine was capable of about 2,000 horsepower.
Each engine was also capable of adding more weight to the plane, no?
So try pit the 17,000lbs of P-38 mass with two 2,000hp engines, against a typical single-engined fighters with a single engine rated at 1700~1900hp, weighing in at about 3,000~5,000lbs. Is it any wonder these lighter planes climb faster, turn better, and accelerate better?
Ground crews regularly set the engines to ratings in excess of 1,800 horsepower.
The same could be said for a lot of other fighters as well. AH modelling sticks to published data for all planes, not just the P-38.
-
See Rule #2
-
I think flying style has alot to do with it. Those that like to rope love it as it climbs so nice. Those that BNZ don't fly it so much because of compression, and those that turn fight, can get in something that turns better.
My opinion why its not used so much is its audience is thin, because most either turn or bnz in here, and when bunched into the mix of AH, it kinda becomes a mediocre plane unless used in the vert with precision.
-
Originally posted by Raptor
The P38 has an elitest society of cartoon plane pilots. The Hierarchy tree looks like this:
5% - The Secret Society of P38 Pilots:noid
20% - Those that think they are good, but only know how to BnZ
15% - Those that try, and fail miserably to fight in it
60% - Those that use it for bombing
Hense why it is rare to come across a P38 that flies on the edge of the P38 envelope.
Since Raptor let the cat out of the bag so to speak. It is really a conspiracy of the secret society of AH P38 pilots :)
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/861_1165390269_badge2.jpg)
-
Originally posted by Stang
Fly the 38 against a zeke and I think you'll like it much better... in fact it should be untouchable in that situation. That's what Bong and the boys flew against.
Yes, but Bong and the boys weren't afraid to turn fight with Zekes, either. That "only ninety degrees" rule was for the green pilots. While that doesn't mean that the P-38 turned as well as a Zeke, of course, that does indicate that they were somewhat comparable.
Originally posted by Kweassa
The lighter 109, less than half of what the P-38 weighs, with a more favorable power loading and smaller wing loading, has a much smaller turning circle than the P-38. But many P-38s are davantageous in instantaneous turning capabilities which often makes it more than a match for a 109, especially on the offensive vertical, not to mention the later Bf109K-4 is thoroughly outturned by the P-38.
Ah, wonderful - the tired old "wing loading" argument. The Me-109 did indeed have a considerably lower wingloading than the P-38, but the 38 had massively better flaps and better liftloading (as well as several other factors). You can "calculate" which should turn better until you're blue in the face, leaving out factors. So did a group of aerodynamics students when they calculated that it is impossible for a bumblebee to fly. But the facts remain that bumblebees can fly, and the P-38 was superior to the Me-109 in a sustained turn. Your assessment is quite the opposite of reality; the Me-109 was superior in instantaneous turn only. The P-38 would catch up in a few seconds.
Me-109 and P-38 aces all agreed that the P-38 turned inside the 109 "with ease," but that if they kept their turns short and reversed direction frequently the American would tire quickly because of heavier controls. You'll find dozens of Me-109 pilots who stated that the P-38 was the better turner, and you'll not find a one who said the opposite. And please don't give me that crap from Galland (who later admitted that he wasn't speaking from experience); Galland said nothing about turning ability. You can do faulty calculations based on one of many factors, but you're always going to be wrong.
-
"Aerial" has 0 kills. I smell a troll.
-
Originally posted by roach
See Rule #4
How was he "rude to the core" in this thread?:huh
-
Originally posted by hubsonfire
"Aerial" has 0 kills. I smell a troll.
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=191864
... Head to head. While I'm not the best 38 stick here, I do know my airplane. These films, by the way, were taken before my hand surgury but well after my hands started giving me problems. Keep in mind that I used to have a lot better control. Still, if you think that the P-38's a capable plane in the simulator, then feel free to fly it against me in an Me-109.
-
See Rule #4
-
i dont think its underated it just requires a certain skill to fly (one i havent figured out yet)
-
Originally posted by Stang
See Rule #4
How dare you sir!!!!:mad:
If only there was an ignore function on the BBS to prevent us from seeing such vile diatribes!!!
:huh
:D
-
For you guys who fly P-38's a lot, what do you do about the view through the gunsight in the P-38G? That thick layer of glass makes it so that I have a hard time seeing an aircraft I'm targeting. Is there anything you guys do about that (other than not fly the G model)?
Also, for those of you who fly it a lot, what are some of your favorite tactics?
-
Originally posted by Brooke
For you guys who fly P-38's a lot, what do you do about the view through the gunsight in the P-38G? That thick layer of glass makes it so that I have a hard time seeing an aircraft I'm targeting. Is there anything you guys do about that (other than not fly the G model)?
Also, for those of you who fly it a lot, what are some of your favorite tactics?
Since I fly the G about 99% of the time I don't even notice the view anymore. If I get in a J or L it seems more restrictive, but that's because I'm just used to the G.
-
Why on earth would anyone wish to fly the p38 when there is the mossie.
-
Originally posted by FiLtH
I think flying style has alot to do with it. Those that like to rope love it as it climbs so nice. Those that BNZ don't fly it so much because of compression, and those that turn fight, can get in something that turns better.
My opinion why its not used so much is its audience is thin, because most either turn or bnz in here, and when bunched into the mix of AH, it kinda becomes a mediocre plane unless used in the vert with precision.
Experienced P-38 pilots are just as comfortable in an angles fight as they are in an energy or BnZ fight. That's the beauty of the P-38, it's decent at all fighting styles.
The main reason why it's not a widely used plane is that it's not all that easy to fly if you want to get all out of it. Like I mentioned in an earlier post, a lot of players see what some can do in it so they give it a try and find that they can barely get the plane to roll or turn. So the end result is that they stop flying it because they realize that they need to larn how to fly it to be relatively successful in it. In their minds, why take the time to learn how to fly the Lightning properly and get their arse kicked while learning the ropes when they can hop in one of the more easier planes to fly and start getting kills?
It's a great plane and deadly if you want to take the time to learn how to fly it well. I've got to have tens of thousands of flights in it and I hope to have tens of more thousands of flights in it in my future.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Brooke
Also, for those of you who fly it a lot, what are some of your favorite tactics?
When I've got energy and I want to Energy fight, I'll use the old tried and true Rope-A-Dweeb, usually with a Vertical 8 maneuver or maybe even a Triple Immel if I have the energy. If I BnZ, I'll use Cuban 8 or Half Cuban maneuvers. I know probably not practical in real life but they do seem to work really well in the MA. In an Angles fight, I'll use vertical turning maneuvers like Yo Yos, Chandelles and if I'm in a stall fight, I'll use the Cloverleaf. Cloverleaf is a good way to kill Spitfires below 150mphs IAS.
ack-ack
-
IRL german Jg26 always prefered to meet p38s at low alt in front of other
allied fighters . Jg26 flew mostly 190s but had 2 staffeln with 109s
At high alt things where different - when they met p38j they always knew they could dive away from them - not until L model was that fixed
read "jg26 war diarys volume1 and 2" - highly recommended.
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
Me-109 and P-38 aces all agreed that the P-38 turned inside the 109 "with ease," but that if they kept their turns short and reversed direction frequently the American would tire quickly because of heavier controls.
You are right about one thing. Wingloading is not the measure of all. An inportant factor is how the plane handles in the turn. Lets talk real life here. P-38 pilots were confident in pushing their planes deep into the stall. 109 pilots feared stalls and spins and had to fight the engine torque with strong leg muscles. Spins and accelerated stalls are not like in AH. They are hair raising much harder to pull out of. At low alt they are deadly and it's your real life that are at risk.
Consider the 109s a few patches ago, when they suffered the dreaded instability issue. They could turn just as well as they can now - if the pilot was able to keep in control that is. Players complained it can't turn. It could turn, but not controled.
This is why effectively the 38 was a much better turner than expected.
And what is this about tiring the american pilots? they really thought they'd exhaust their opponents till they can't turn anymore?...
-
The early P-38s had rather heavy aileron controls. Since the 109 could not out-turn the P-38, the 109 pilot had to try scissors. If they managed to do it long enough, the 38 pilot would tire faster because of his ailerons. As with all of the P-38's problems, the mid-J model amended this, causing the 109 pilots to be out of luck.
-
Any 38 co-alt and below is not very hard to kill. Its the high ones to look out for. The worst thing is shooting at them from 6 oclock. Its like trying to shoot a razor blade on edge.
-
Originally posted by TW9
i dont think its underated it just requires a certain skill to fly (one i havent figured out yet)
Exactly
Hint.
Like with the other planes
Throttle. Trim, speed and E management
Not directed specifically at you TW9....
Learn how to work those and youwill find the 38 is indeed not undermodeled.
Its not how the plane is modeled but how you fly it.
and that goes for any plane in the game
there is more to it then just slam the throttle forward kick the rudder and pull on the stick.
And there are alot of different variables.
38 vrs 109.
Well which varient 109 are we talking about? they didnt ALL fly the same
some like the 109 e and F turned very well in large part due to lower speeds. A plane able to stay aloft at slower speeds will always turn tighter circles then a plane traveling at much higher speeds. Just like a car
Some were faster but didnt turn nearly as well
also depends on the various states of each plane.
A 38 traveling at 350 MPH isnt going to be able to make as tight a turn as a 109 traveling at 250 no matter what way you slice it
some planes may be able to "turn fast" that doesnt mean it can turn tight when fast.
Try cutting your throttle going into a turn and powering back up comming out of it.
See if your turn improves
-
Originally posted by thrila
Why on earth would anyone wish to fly the p38 when there is the mossie.
Cos the Mossie is undermodled. Blah blah blah.
No seriously, it is.
Saying that though, you can still get a decent number of kills in it before you're turned into (I want to use the phrase "studmuffingots and kindling" but can't I guess) a shooting star.
<>
-
LOL, there are only a few guys in here that are actually deadly in a 38, many others just fly them well with a wingman and cherry pick BnZ, I think that guy Goldelks or something was the worst I have run into.
-
Aerial... Thats a name I remember...
I come to h2h to spank you and the other two cherry picking 38's. Sorry man, but you have no idea what 38 is capable of because you fly it like a girl.
I'd let you guys bounce me with alt/E, and you'd still die. Not sure if I was flying under Yukon or Lazer, but im sure you remember that day. Still got films if you need a little help remembering.
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
The early P-38s had rather heavy aileron controls. Since the 109 could not out-turn the P-38, the 109 pilot had to try scissors. If they managed to do it long enough, the 38 pilot would tire faster because of his ailerons.
That's a myth if ever I heard one.
The pilot was tired, then what? he'll quit maneuvering and auger out of exhaustion? give up because he's about to break sweat?
The early P38s just rolled like a beached whale, were poor scissors fighters and easy to evade at high alts. Either the enemy would buy enough time to pull away, dive away, be cleared by a friendly or try to get behind the 38 if he's brave. Even if captain america was at the control and never tire he would not keep up.
Being a 109 pilot was not easy either. If I recall correctly they had to have a pretty strong leg for the un-trimable rudder. Maybe if they flew long enough they'd tire and stop flying coordinated.
-
Didn't you know? 60% of pilot deaths in WWII were due to pilots who gave up cos their arms ached a bit.
-
I still can't figure out what the 38 is doing wrong in AH? I guess I must fly it too much :)
-
I got sick of defending it, thats why I've joined the Dark Side. :)
-
I had a P-51 and a 190 diving on my low n slow 38J last night... both missed for a good 20 minutes then 51 hit me hard twice, his second hit on me was his last as I turned hard and caught him moving away and blasted him.... he didn't go far and he died. He was on 200 and asking how in the world I was still up.... :rofl
PS I was wounded with 2 smoking fans
-
Originally posted by FX1
If you don't have a advantage in a 38 your dead.
Exactly! But to many this is 'know how to fly it' or 'flying it right'
I can't even remember losing to a 38 that did not jump me while fighting someone else or did not start with a big advantage.
-
Originally posted by BugsBunny
Exactly! But to many this is 'know how to fly it' or 'flying it right'
I can't even remember losing to a 38 that did not jump me while fighting someone else or did not start with a big advantage.
That's probably true of lots of 38 drivers as it is of any other type of plane and pilot, but this one here and many of the guys I fly with tend to come in co-alt or below the fight.
I know how often I'm asking the guy above me to come on down on 200.
My preference has always been knife fighting in the weeds. And more often then not I wade into a horde :)
Doesn't mean I don't die often, but that's where the fun is :aok
-
Originally posted by BugsBunny
Exactly! But to many this is 'know how to fly it' or 'flying it right'
I can't even remember losing to a 38 that did not jump me while fighting someone else or did not start with a big advantage.
More than likely those P-38 flyers you ran into weren't experienced in flying the P-38. Not to mention that you're probably over exaggerating your prowess against the Lightning.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
More than likely those P-38 flyers you ran into weren't experienced in flying the P-38. Not to mention that you're probably over exaggerating your prowess against the Lightning.
ack-ack
Maybe, but you ve gone down every time we met. And believe you me! You had alt, :rofl
Its not me. Its the 38.
-
Ahhhhhh Aerial, now you've forced me to dig for this film...
MUAHAHA..:t
Can anyone host?
-
Originally posted by pluck
to think that i've been flying it at 8k and below into hordes with the rest of the 80th. sheesh, i always wondered what i was doing wrong.
The only thing you do wrong is land..........
-
2 questions...
What's a "Lufberry"?
What's "Cross Controlling"?
-
Originally posted by Brooke
For you guys who fly P-38's a lot, what do you do about the view through the gunsight in the P-38G? That thick layer of glass makes it so that I have a hard time seeing an aircraft I'm targeting. Is there anything you guys do about that (other than not fly the G model)?
Also, for those of you who fly it a lot, what are some of your favorite tactics?
Brooke it has forced me to fly the J and L only.. I cant see thru that combat glass..But since I cant fly the 38 very well Im sure this is of no interest to anyone..
-
Ive killed enough players that dove on my lower P38 to say bollocks to the "you must have alt" crowd...sorry. It is true that it is easier to kill your enemy when you have alt...the same can be said about any plane. Heck, just last night I got bounced by a few higher cons...110s and 51s...they died. Not always the case, but it does happen...more frequently than some of you guys think...i guess.
-
P38 could, and can in AH, outturn 109s. What I think you are doing wrong is comparing the J/L to E and F. P38G wouldn't have been fighting the E version often, but the P38G can outturn the 109F. I have no trouble outturning 109G2-109K4 in a J or L. Sometimes a good pilot will give me some trouble but the trusty ole P38 can fly slower than the 109 and once I get behind a 109, if it tries turning will soon realize it's not getting anywhere and will use it's speed to get away. Seems a lot like real life to me...
The P38 doesn't have to have alt to win... but like i posted earlier, a lot of people that think they know the P38 think that is how they have to get kills. Hell if I encounter a TnB plane in the MA and there are no other enemies around, if on the rare occasion I am higher, I burn E until it is co alt and hope they don't run.
-
Originally posted by BugsBunny
Maybe, but you ve gone down every time we met. And believe you me! You had alt, :rofl
Its not me. Its the 38.
LOL! Sure I have...what is your in game CPID?
*EDIT* you're elmerfud in the arenas, correct? If so, I've never run across you before in any of the arenas or even seen that CPID online when I've been online and a further check shows that we've never fought and I went back all the way to Tour 12 when I first started.
So I guess my previous comment was valid, you're obviously overstating your prowess.
ack-ack
-
'38 is a great ride, especially if you like having the option for the air-ground role...it carries I nice amount of ord without slowing you down too badly.
I wish I could fly the thing as well as guys like Wolfala or Corky :)
One bad thing about it in the air-to-air role...if you mess up (as I do ever so often), it can become a really big target for anything with really big canons.
Probably one of the best threads I read last summer was the in the Aircraft forum, where you guys were discussing the differences between G/J/L etc
-
Originally posted by porkfrog
2 questions...
What's a "Lufberry"? A german sweet berry of the mountains
What's "Cross Controlling"? Catholics
-
Originally posted by porkfrog
2 questions...
What's a "Lufberry"?
What's "Cross Controlling"?
A Lufbery Circle is a defensive maneuver attributed to ace Raoul Lufbery during WWI. It is usually performed by two or more planes. They enter a tight, constantly turning circle. Thus, for an enemy to get onto the tail of one of the fighters, he is exposed to the guns of the next friendly in the circle.
Pilots often refer to a defensive circle (even if alone) as a Lufbery. If you have the better turning fighter and can draw a pursuing enemy into a Lufbery, you can eventually gain an advantage if the enemy remains in the circle too long.
Cross controlling is simply applying rudder in one direction and aileron in the opposite direction. IE: Rudder left, stick to the right. This causes the plane to yaw to the left while maintaining the same general heading. Yawing the aircraft generates a great deal of drag and rapidly burns off air speed. This maneuver may be used to force an enemy to overshoot, or to remain behind and enemy that is slower than you or attempting to slow and force you to overshoot.
You may find this graphic from a 1917 issue of The New York Evening World interesting.
(http://www.neam.org/lafescweb/images/train_tactics.jpg)
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by Raptor
P38 could, and can in AH, outturn 109s. What I think you are doing wrong is comparing the J/L to E and F. P38G wouldn't have been fighting the E version often, but the P38G can outturn the 109F. I have no trouble outturning 109G2-109K4 in a J or L.
Raptor, I believe that you have out-turned some 109 pilots. Keep that in mind, because the turn radius of a 109F-4 is 23% smaller than that of a P-38G. 23% is huge, it's greater than the difference between a Spitfire8 and P-47D-25. It's greater than the difference between a Hurricane IIC and a Mosquito....
Turn radius and rate, 25% fuel, full ammo, full flaps.
P-38G: 560 feet @ 20.2 degrees per second
109F-4: 430 feet @ 21.0 degrees per second
Not only does the 109F-4 turn much smaller circles, it gets around the circle faster to boot. That's all bad news for the P-38G.
I'll be in the TA tonight after 9 PM eastern if you wish to compare the two in a head to head test (not a dueling challenge, unless you so desire). I'll switch to a 109K-4 after that and we'll do some more turns. I think that you will be very surprised.
My regards,
Widewing
-
See Rule #4
-
Ah, wonderful - the tired old "wing loading" argument.
Wonderful for me as well, since I've successfully eliminated the various other absurd accusations from your stock. I know my kind only too well.
The Me-109 did indeed have a considerably lower wingloading than the P-38, but the 38 had massively better flaps and better liftloading (as well as several other factors).
So let's hear just how a plane with 17,500 lbs mass with engines running at 3,200hp, loading of 5.46lb/hp with considerably worse wingloading, is supposed to outturn 7,270lb plane running at 1,800hp with much favorable loading of 4.03 lb/hp with a lower wing loading.
You can "calculate" which should turn better until you're blue in the face, leaving out factors. So did a group of aerodynamics students when they calculated that it is impossible for a bumblebee to fly. But the facts remain that bumblebees can fly, and the P-38 was superior to the Me-109 in a sustained turn.
You stated no facts, just claims. I could go to church and hear zealots stating more facts of divine intervention in earthly realms than any amount of comparable "fact" you've laid out here.
The two things working in favor for the lumbering behemoth of P-38 is its torqueless nature and efficiency of flap usage, both of which AH P-38 adepts already make good use of. The P-38 already does outturn 109s in AH in many various situations working in favor for their pilots.
But to claim that a plane more than twice in overall mass with both of the two key elements in deciding turn performance faring much worse, can out-right boast a better turning capability than a plane less than half its weight with both powerloading and wing loading in its favor, just because some slabs of metal extending down its trailing edge, is aburd to the max.
As if 109s didn't have flaps of their own.
Your assessment is quite the opposite of reality; the Me-109 was superior in instantaneous turn only. The P-38 would catch up in a few seconds.
Your reality is a strange world indeed.
Me-109 and P-38 aces all agreed that the P-38 turned inside the 109 "with ease," but that if they kept their turns short and reversed direction frequently the American would tire quickly because of heavier controls.
Which P-38 and 109 aces said that?
You'll find dozens of Me-109 pilots who stated that the P-38 was the better turner, and you'll not find a one who said the opposite.
Actually this statement from you clearly makes it possible to categorize you under the classic "anecdote lover". Tall tales of chest thumping quickly becomes 'proof' under your way of logic, does it not?
And please don't give me that crap from Galland (who later admitted that he wasn't speaking from experience); Galland said nothing about turning ability. You can do faulty calculations based on one of many factors, but you're always going to be wrong.
Whatever you say, true-believer.
The earth is flat, and the cosmos rotates with the earth in the center.
- because the saints said so.
-
Thanks WW for answering my 2 questions. Awesome image post as well.
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
So let's hear just how a plane with 17,500 lbs mass with engines running at 3,200hp, loading of 5.46lb/hp with considerably worse wingloading, is supposed to outturn 7,270lb plane running at 1,800hp with much favorable loading of 4.03 lb/hp with a lower wing loading.
But to claim that a plane more than twice in overall mass with both of the two key elements in deciding turn performance faring much worse, can out-right boast a better turning capability than a plane less than half its weight with both powerloading and wing loading in its favor, just because some slabs of metal extending down its trailing edge, is aburd to the max.
You're a 109 fanboy. I expect no more from you. None the less, I am bound to point out for the benefit of others that the key is liftloading. Lift not only determines climbing ability, it also determines turning ability. The P-38 had a fantastic climb rate of approximately 4,800 feet per minute at war emergency power. Your foolish wingloading argument sort of falls apart there.
-
Originally posted by Raptor
P38 could, and can in AH, outturn 109s. What I think you are doing wrong is comparing the J/L to E and F. P38G wouldn't have been fighting the E version often, but the P38G can outturn the 109F. I have no trouble outturning 109G2-109K4 in a J or L. Sometimes a good pilot will give me some trouble but the trusty ole P38 can fly slower than the 109 and once I get behind a 109, if it tries turning will soon realize it's not getting anywhere and will use it's speed to get away. Seems a lot like real life to me...
The P38 doesn't have to have alt to win... but like i posted earlier, a lot of people that think they know the P38 think that is how they have to get kills. Hell if I encounter a TnB plane in the MA and there are no other enemies around, if on the rare occasion I am higher, I burn E until it is co alt and hope they don't run.
Yea but how many here bother to try to slow down to fight?
Your typical player always fights with the throttle firewalled from takeoff to fiinal approach and never bothers to try and work it.
-
When I used to turnfight the 38 I always tried to start lower than the opponent so I could get into flaps before he could. Never had a great deal of success with it when I tried to use it to bnz. Hopefully it hasn't changed too much, because it was one of the more fun planes to learn.
-
P-38 vrs a6m p38 should win
-
Originally posted by killnu
Ive killed enough players that dove on my lower P38 to say bollocks to the "you must have alt" crowd...sorry. It is true that it is easier to kill your enemy when you have alt...the same can be said about any plane. Heck, just last night I got bounced by a few higher cons...110s and 51s...they died. Not always the case, but it does happen...more frequently than some of you guys think...i guess.
Killn, the key is equal pilots. I kill lalas in my 202 also. That does not mean the 202 is a good plane. They are just new.
-
and the statements
Basically to be good in a 38 you need alt and more alt
If you don't have a advantage in a 38 your dead.
are in fact garbage. its the pilots, not the plane.
-
Originally posted by killnu
its the pilots, not the plane.
Couldn't agree more, guess that's why we squadies!:aok
-
Don't underestimate any plane till its falling to the ground in pieces! :D
-
Originally posted by killnu
and the statements
are in fact garbage. its the pilots, not the plane.
Agreed, but when I talk about a plane, I assume equal pilots. So, equal pilots - in my opinion - Spit 9 vs p38, Spit wins
-
To me it seems that the 38 is a plane that takes constant working to fly to it's limits. You're constantly working the throttle, flaps, trim, etc. to get the thing to perform..but when you DO hit that magic combo..it can really shine. It's not an easy mode plane by any means...and I myself have many wonderous moments watching the flames dance across my wings as I plummet to the earth. But I'm learning. I just recently discovered how much of a difference banging in manual trim will help the 38 in a fight.
And for all the nay sayers that talk about how easily they beat up on a 38...running into folks like me...and running into folks like killn, or lazer, or any of the other hot 38 sticks are 2 totally different things. I myself have had the displeasure of being on the wrong end of killnu's 38 wrath. I still haven't figured out how he reversed that thing that fast..all I know if that I got a cockpit full of 20mm's..then my wings fell off.
Oh..and I was in a turn fight with him and I was an F4U-1. It was nasty. hehehe
-
As I read this thread it occurred to me what great job HT and his crew have done to make and model so many planes that the "Grogs" can acctually argue the technical aspects of each.
I never flew any of the planes HT and crew have modeled, but I am sure glad to have the chance to at least "come close" to the experience in AH.
-
You're a 109 fanboy. I expect no more from you.
And you're a typical rationalizer, who so often attributes the lack of one's own success to a alleged "fault" in the game, without pausing even for a second that it just might be because you simply suck.
Occam's Razor anyone?
None the less, I am bound to point out for the benefit of others that the key is liftloading. Lift not only determines climbing ability, it also determines turning ability.
Cockamamie heap of bullshi* if you ask me.
Unless you want to rewrite the entire history of aerophysics itself the two prime factors of determining turn performance is wing-loading and powerloading, none other. Turning a plane is essentially climbing function which the plane's lift is redirected to make it possible to initiate and sustain the turn itself, which is what makes the wing-loading in most cases the primary factor in turn performance. However it is also a motion inducing heavy amounts of drag, which is where the power loading becomes so important, since a favorable figure indicates the plane has enough excess thrust to overcome the drag induced by the turn itself.
A good lift loading is at best a supplementary concept which includes in the equation the areas of the plane besides the wing that might be able to produce additional lift.
Here you come so far as to claim a plane that is both severely heavier in mass, and has substantially heavier weight for each square foot of the wing to support during the turning motion, should outturn a plane which both key elements of turing far more favorable.
Simply put, you are claiming that P-38 which its own two wings must bear far more weight, and its engine must work much harder, can turn better than a lighter 109 less than half its own weight with lighter weight to bear on each of the wings, and a more powerful power-to-mass ratio.
In order for that to be possible the areas of the P-38 excluding the engine and the wings must produce either thrust, lift, or both, which is large enough to overcome the clear initial disadvantages. So just how exactly does the torso of the P-38 produce lift or thrust that is powerful to overcome the differences in the two most important factors measured for determining turn performance? Equipped with a anti-grav field generator or something? Kelly Johnson made the P-38 into a "flying wing"?
The P-38 has a fantastic lift loading for a plane of its size and weight. A plane with two engines, double the number of fuselage, double the weight of its contemporaries, and yet competitive enough to function as a day fighter. However, that's just about it. Other bits and parcels of its 'magic' comes from its torqueles characteristic, efficient flaps, and skill of the pilots which under certain conditions made it possible to outturn planes with potentially better turning capabilities - not from the plane itself.
The P-38 had a fantastic climb rate of approximately 4,800 feet per minute at war emergency power. Your foolish wingloading argument sort of falls apart there.
You seem to have this peculiar way of thought that words like fantastic or great apply to only one of contendors. For some reason if one plane is "fantastic" in a certain area, you automatically assume that others were not.
Ironically, the simple fact that no P-38 ever outclimbed a contemporary 109 discloses your delusion for what it is. As fantastic as the P-38 was in climbing, there were better fish in the pool. One of them by chance, turns out to be of German construction, whether you like it or not.
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
Ironically, the simple fact that no P-38 ever outclimbed a contemporary 109 discloses your delusion for what it is. As fantastic as the P-38 was in climbing, there were better fish in the pool. One of them by chance, turns out to be of German construction, whether you like it or not.
The 109 was not a better climber than the P-38. That's another one of your myths that come from incorrect flight simulators.
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
The 109 was not a better climber than the P-38. That's another one of your myths that come from incorrect flight simulators.
wow, i can't figure out what you are...
stupid, stubbord or both?
38 is a fantastic ride, but don't believe everything the history channel tells you. and it isn't undermodelled at all, it's one of the best planes in the set, you're obviously a cruddy pilot... you aren't using stall limiter are you?
-
History channel? I do not watch television. I have far better things to do with my mind. You need to stop believing whatever you see in aerial combat simulators. I've done literally thousands of hours of serious research on the 38, more than any of you will ever do on any airplane in your life. You are believing a myth propagated by fools who think that they can "calculate" the result of a very complex operation by using simple equations. These people will actually tell you, "There's no way a 15,000 pound aircraft will turn with a 7,000 pound aircraft." It's madness; by that logic, the F-15 should not be able to out-turn a B-17, since the F-15 is heavier. But there are dozens of factors which must be taken into consideration, not just weight.
The hard facts are that the P-38 had a much better lifting wing than the Me-109, had much better flaps than the 109, and had better powerloading than the 109. Wingloading is only a small part of turning ability, whatever Kweassa says. And although he refuses to admit it, a great many P-38s were rated far higher than the official United States Army Air Force ratings. It wasn't an exclusive experiment performed on two or three Lightnings, it was a widespread practice. The opposite cannot be said of the Kraut ships. Warren Bodie gives the top speed of the P-38L as about 440 M.P.H., a far cry from the popular but incorrect figure of 414 M.P.H.
The P-38 out-turned and outclimbed anything Germany ever sent up, and outdived them at low altitude (below 15,000 feet). After the J model, it also outrolled them except for at low speeds. The FW-190 lost its roll rate advantage over the P-38L at about three hundred and fifty miles per four. The only time the 38 had difficulties with German fighters was at high altitude, where its engines could not produce enough power to fully utilize the maneuvering flaps and diving capability was reduced before the advent of the dive flaps.
-
keep in mind that most young pilots will always exaggerate ;)
if you have some serious data with good evidence to back your claims, and really think it's undermodelled, put something together and send it to HTC, i'm sure they'd love to have it, and if you can prove it, i'm sure they'd adjust the flight model to be as accurate as possible.
on the 38 turn rate, yes, it was high, but keep in mind that dogfights in real life are very different to AH, as most engagements happened at much higher speeds (38 will kick the crap out of anything at med to high speed). the german rides were much smaller and lighter, so once they got slow, they were far more nimble.
the 38 is a beast in AH, you just need to know what you're doing with it. and if you ARE flying with stall limiter on, that's where your problem is :aok
-
Are you trying to say that in all of world war II no german plane ever out turned or out climbed or for that matter out performed a 38 in a fight?
If thats the case then other then from ground fire.
Its a wonder any 38 pilot ever got shot down
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Are you trying to say that in all of world war II no german plane ever out turned or out climbed or for that matter out performed a 38 in a fight?
Given equal terms (roughly equal energy states and pilot skill), yes, no German plane ever outturned or outclimbed the P-38 below perhaps 20,000 feet. The FW-190 could match the P-38 in performance, however, and was possibly better at vertical maneuvering.
The P-38 turned best at low speeds (below 250 M.P.H.), not high. Once again you fellows get it wrong. The Messerschmitt had an initial turn advantage, but once the speeds dropped a bit and sustained turn came into play, the P-38 would catch up.
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
Given equal terms (roughly equal energy states and pilot skill), yes, no German plane ever outturned or outclimbed the P-38 below perhaps 20,000 feet. The FW-190 could match the P-38 in performance, however, and was possibly better at vertical maneuvering.
thats not what I asked though.
But you answered wonderfully.
"Given equal terms (roughly equal energy states and pilot skill)"
How often do all those things come together at the same time in the game?
Very rarely
And thering lies your answer as to if the 38 is undermodeled or not
and why you might be getting out turned
:D
furthermore Your going by test data
Tests are not combat conditions.
whole host of variables your not taking into account
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
History channel? I do not watch television. I have far better things to do with my mind. You need to stop believing whatever you see in aerial combat simulators. I've done literally thousands of hours of serious research on the 38, more than any of you will ever do on any airplane in your life. You are believing a myth propagated by fools who think that they can "calculate" the result of a very complex operation by using simple equations. These people will actually tell you, "There's no way a 15,000 pound aircraft will turn with a 7,000 pound aircraft." It's madness; by that logic, the F-15 should not be able to out-turn a B-17, since the F-15 is heavier. But there are dozens of factors which must be taken into consideration, not just weight.
The hard facts are that the P-38 had a much better lifting wing than the Me-109, had much better flaps than the 109, and had better powerloading than the 109. Wingloading is only a small part of turning ability, whatever Kweassa says. And although he refuses to admit it, a great many P-38s were rated far higher than the official United States Army Air Force ratings. It wasn't an exclusive experiment performed on two or three Lightnings, it was a widespread practice. The opposite cannot be said of the Kraut ships. Warren Bodie gives the top speed of the P-38L as about 440 M.P.H., a far cry from the popular but incorrect figure of 414 M.P.H.
The P-38 out-turned and outclimbed anything Germany ever sent up, and outdived them at low altitude (below 15,000 feet). After the J model, it also outrolled them except for at low speeds. The FW-190 lost its roll rate advantage over the P-38L at about three hundred and fifty miles per four. The only time the 38 had difficulties with German fighters was at high altitude, where its engines could not produce enough power to fully utilize the maneuvering flaps and diving capability was reduced before the advent of the dive flaps.
If you really want to set Kweassa off, just mention how the auto-flap retracting system is a hand holding coddling feature for those that don't know how to use flaps properly. hehehe
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Major Biggles
on the 38 turn rate, yes, it was high, but keep in mind that dogfights in real life are very different to AH, as most engagements happened at much higher speeds (38 will kick the crap out of anything at med to high speed).
Actually, at medium speeds is the P-38s weakness against the more nimble planes. At medium speeds a P-38 will be chewed up by a Spitfire if the P-38 driver is dumb enough to turn with the Spit. Againts planes like the P-51, Typhoon/Tempest, FW190's the P-38 can turn with them at medium speeds with out any troubles. I always tell those that ask for advise with the P-38 is to keep the fight at of the medium speed range if you're going against planes like the Spitfire, Hurricane and N1K2 and instead try to get the fight in the high speed range or if you're stuck in a turn fight to get the fight really slow in the stall speed ranges so you can take advantage of the superior low speed handling, zero torque and gentle stall characteristics of the P-38. But as with all things in life, YMMV.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
I've done literally thousands of hours of serious research on the 38, more than any of you will ever do on any airplane in your life.
I don't know, you might want to fact check that one with SaVaGe, Widewing, and Guppy just to name a few. ;)
-
The problem is, that whenever you go overboard researching any aircraft, you lose perpective on it.
We've had a 190 fanatic like that and a 109 fanatic.
No matter what you said, they had some 'fact' or piece of 'data' to counteract it.
That fanaticism gives the rest of the fans of that particular ride a bad taste.
I'd suggest Widewing and SaVaGe could go toe to toe on 38 Data with anyone, and I'd probably stack my 38 library up against anyones, but I'm more interested in the guys who flew it and their units, not the data on horsepower settings and turn radius. That stuff starts to put me to sleep :)
But then again I think the 38 in AH is just fine and have a ball flying it. I'd be hard pressed to tell AH and company they've done it wrong :)
-
The p-38 is a very good fighter,if flown coerrectly,this holds true of any fighter in the group.I think that most planes are pilot dependent.I've seen spits that fought good,spits that didnt.It was the pilot not the plane.
To claim that the 38 is a better turner than the 109 is true,no way can a 109 turn in consistant flat turns with a 38,it doesnt turn tighter ,sharper,harder or any other word that could define yanking and banking.I have personally never stated that the 109 could out turn the 38.
However turning a flat circle and chaseing a planes tail is only a very small part of any fight and to more accomplished pilots than myself,the fight ussually dont last long enough to get into the "luftberry"Once you take into consideration the "torque roll"of the 109 vs the roll rate of the 38,the fight quickly shifts in faver of the 109.I've been out zoom climbed by many 38 stiks,I've discovered than against most American planes once they get below 150mph,they have difficulty going nose up and this is what I use to beat them with,I slow scissors fight that has the 109 constantly pulling nose high over the 38,if the 38 breaks to extend,the 109 acclerates fast enough to catch it.
The best turner doenst always win,the fastest plane doesnt allways win,the best climber doesnt always win,but the best pilot will nearly alway win the engagement.
The best 38 stik I've dueled to this date are in this order as I see them,based on the performance and number of times they beat me in my 109
1.RONIN--he's in my squad
2.Killnu--great competitor and adjust on the fly,once he's behind the centerline,you might as well order the tombstone.
3.Paws--can twist that 38G like no one I've seen
4.1337DOOD--really fun fights and will get most times in MA,of course Koncho is always lurking in the shadows,but it's always the best fight of the night.
P-38 vs ME109 1v1 duels
Here are some duels I've had against the P-38 while in my 109.Some I win some I lose and some I just get plain ole lucky.Some of these have been posted before ,some have not.
Also for those who are curious about E-fighting vs angles fighting ,Arial does a great job of mantaining alt and E when dueling,I found this to be some what to my disadvantage as I have a tendency to blow E for angles and then I had to try to recover from the lower position.
Please feel free to critique and if you need any films hosted ,contact myself or "DOMIN" our site admin.
http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/pawsvsk4.ahf
http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/pawsvsk42.ahf
http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/pawsvsk43.ahf
http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/arial38vsk4.ahf
http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/arialvsk42.ahf
http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/arielvsk43.ahf
http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/arialvsk44.ahf
http://www.badcompanysquad.com/creton/38vsk4.ahf
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Actually, at medium speeds is the P-38s weakness against the more nimble planes. At medium speeds a P-38 will be chewed up by a Spitfire if the P-38 driver is dumb enough to turn with the Spit. Againts planes like the P-51, Typhoon/Tempest, FW190's the P-38 can turn with them at medium speeds with out any troubles. I always tell those that ask for advise with the P-38 is to keep the fight at of the medium speed range if you're going against planes like the Spitfire, Hurricane and N1K2 and instead try to get the fight in the high speed range or if you're stuck in a turn fight to get the fight really slow in the stall speed ranges so you can take advantage of the superior low speed handling, zero torque and gentle stall characteristics of the P-38. But as with all things in life, YMMV.
ack-ack
hehehe, you can probably tell i don't fly the 38 much :D
-
I have stayed out of this one, and will probably wish I had continued to do so.
First, I'd like to thank those of you who paid compliments to me regarding my collection of P-38 data, I'm not sure I wouldn't trade it for Dan's collection of pilot stories. I do not now, nor have I ever claimed to have the P-38 covered, I even learn stuff re-reading books I have had for some time.
Second, I wish that I flew the plane nearly as well as I have studied it. The P-38 is far more capable as a plane than I am as a pilot. Both here, and in real life, there are/were a talented and dedicated few who flew it, who became almost invincible. It requires a special pilot with a certain touch and a lot of practice. Some will never get it regardless of how much they practice, and I find myself thinking that I am in that category.
Now, to the subject at hand. The TRUTH is likely somewhere in between. I do not claim the P-38 was the "be all, end all" piston engine prop fighter of the period. It was ONE of the best. As is often the case in the world of man + mechanical machine, it takes the right "chemistry" to produce a "match made in Heaven". Certain pilots, Robin Olds, Larry Blumer, John Lowell, PJ Dahl, George Welch, Jack Ilfrey, Richard Bong, and of course Thomas McGuire, were among that large group of pilots with that special touch that combined with the P-38 to make that perfect match.
On the subject of power loading and wing loading, the P-38 does well in power loading when compared to most U.S. fighters, and the truth is that plain simplified wing loading calculations using nothing more than square feet of wing surface area and weight in pounds are at best flawed. If it were true that you could simply calculate lift ability by measuring the surface area of the wings, then there'd be absolutely no need for all of the data compiled by NACA and other groups comparing wing profiles and aspect ratios. If you take time to look, you'll see that there are a lot of wing profiles cataloged by NACA, and their characteristics, both good and bad, are duly noted. They are NOT all the same, and as such you simply cannot do nothing but measure area in square feet and call that an accurate wingloading assessment. Unless of course you care nothing about accuracy.
The subject of autoretract flaps has been beaten to death here, I'd be surprised if there was enough debris left from the subject to take an accurate swing at.
On the subject of power and speed for the P-38L, that has been well flogged several times. Yes, it is common knowledge among most avid researchers that the "-30" Allison has considerably more power than the previous model. It is also widely known that the published ratings for speed rate the P-38L at MILITARY POWER and the P-38J at WAR EMERGENCY POWER. However, it is also well known that the USAAF, for whatever foolish reason, downrated the "-30" engines in the P-38L. While it is true that Lockheed field representatives showed the crews how to turn them up to their full potential, and the ratings are published, it is also true that allowing "field modifications" could open a can of worms best left welded shut and buried. Would those of us who fly the P-38L love to see it get the full rated power? Sure. Would we be pleased with the performance that we got from the increase? Of course we would. Would we be happy with the fact that it would be perked, and also used by every goofy gomer looking to haul huge loads of ordnance and auger faster? Not at all.
There are a few minor flaws in the model, but probably no more than most other planes, and maybe no worse either. Would I like to see them fixed? Sure. Am I going to get bent over it? No. I don't have a conspiracy theory about it either. I don't really think the P-38 is more flawed here than in any other simulation, and it is probably somewhat less flawed here than most, if not all others. And I've been fooling with the P-38 in flight simulations for a good 10-12 years.
The P-38 has its flaws, here, and it had them in real life. It had problems that came from Lockheed, and it had problems that were caused by the War Production Board and the USAAF. But it was a damned fine aircraft, one of the best of its time, and could have been better but for those problems. But the same can be said for many of the other planes of the period.
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
Turning a plane is essentially climbing function which the plane's lift is redirected to make it possible to initiate and sustain the turn itself, which is what makes the wing-loading in most cases the primary factor in turn performance. However it is also a motion inducing heavy amounts of drag, which is where the power loading becomes so important, since a favorable figure indicates the plane has enough excess thrust to overcome the drag induced by the turn itself.
The P-38 has a high aspect ratio (iirc the highest of any fighter of its era) which results in a lower induced drag value. A good quality to have when looking at thrust vs drag.
Just thought Id mention. I want no part of the underlying argument.
-
I think the P-38 is the best bomber in the game.
-
Originally posted by Grits
I think the P-38 is the best bomber in the game.
Not sure about that, but in my hands it has the highest parts distribution rate in Aces High :)
-
Originally posted by Murdr
I don't know, you might want to fact check that one with SaVaGe, Widewing, and Guppy just to name a few. ;)
I readily admit that Widewing's dwarfs mine. By "all of you," I was indicating the scoffers who think, "It's big so it has to be unmaneuverable." Specifically, I was referring to Kweassa and his vendetta against the Lockheed fighter. My apologies to Hilts, Widewing, and the other P-38 experts.
-
You know, I just think there's something fundamentally wrong with an airplane that already has a big hole in it when it takes off. :D
-
Moore:
The 109 was not a better climber than the P-38. That's another one of your myths that come from incorrect flight simulators.
Very interesting state of mind. You actually believe in this crap, don't you?
I'll tell you what. Let's try compare the numbers stated for climbrates of the various P-38s vs Bf109s through 1943 to VE day. Ofcourse, naming the first-hand published source would be needed as well.
Because, if you actually have any hard data that any of the P-38s would outclimb a contemporary 109 then you would probably revolutionize the flight sim game industry by digging out an obscure piece of data which none of the researchs done for game modelling have been able to do so for more than 10 years, not to mention contradict every piece of existing evidence in plain sight. *snicker*
I've done literally thousands of hours of serious research on the 38, more than any of you will ever do on any airplane in your life.
Ah yes. Like the DM discussions where you claimed you have expert authority on damage induced by gunfire by just watching guncam films. Sounds only too familiar.
You are believing a myth propagated by fools who think that they can "calculate" the result of a very complex operation by using simple equations.'
The only reason it becomes complex is because you refuse to accept a simple given truth. We are not talking about any of the various skills and tricks in turning the planes. We are talking about the mere physical properties of the plane in relation with aerodynamical forces, pure and simple. A plane is a physical mass, it turns into the air. Unless it is something out of the supernatural it follows the given law.
Indeed, a mere calculation can never fully reflect the real life. However, every design process begins with a calculation because there are certain hard-coded laws in the physical world. It's why they call it "the LAW of physics" - not the "tendency of physics", or "I want my plane to be this way so I can imagine something up and pretend the calculations don't matter phyics".
Wingloading and powerloading does not account for everything during the turning process, true, but how can anyone claim this as a 'small part' is totally beyond me. It's like saying "ballistics don't matter when you fire a cannon. Chuck up lots more gunpowder and the cannonball will always propel to a good range"
These people will actually tell you, "There's no way a 15,000 pound aircraft will turn with a 7,000 pound aircraft." It's madness; by that logic, the F-15 should not be able to out-turn a B-17, since the F-15 is heavier.
Not if the F-15 was equipped with an engine from 1941, eh?
Actually that very comparison is surprisingly appropriate for you, in that you (most probably) couldn't come up with a comparison involving two planes of the same WW2 era with that kind of weight difference, so you had to drag in a modern-day fighter with vastly superior thrust-to-weight ratio coming from a pinnacle of jet engine tech.
Come on now, surely you see the foolishness of comparing a two different planes with more than a generation gap apart - couldn't you at least have the decency to try and compare other cases where a certain WW2 era plane weighs more than twice the weight of its opponent, and still maneuvers better?
But there are dozens of factors which must be taken into consideration, not just weight.
Okay. So tell me abut those dozens of factors so we can compare them.
So far all you've come up with was a vague superiority in 'lift-loading', which basically falls apart against wing loading and power loading, because the supremacy in these two factors is already a marker on how a certain plane has better lift efficiency than the other. No plane can have a worse wing loading and power loading, and yet still be better in overall lift loading - unless ofcourse, like I've mentioned, they've got some kind of anti-G device mounted on the fuselage or something.
Guppy
The problem is, that whenever you go overboard researching any aircraft, you lose perpective on it.
We've had a 190 fanatic like that and a 109 fanatic.
Actually, I'm quite surprised to see the real P-38 experts withholding their comments in this post. (Or at least, taking an uncomfortably neutral attitdue)
Despite differing views and favorites they were never the ones to warp factual data nor go over the boundary in claiming absurdities. I've certainly debated on many issues against Widewing or his peers, but mostly the given view on how planes react in a certain way was often mutual. We argued on the specifics - such as the auto-flap retraction debates - but never on the generals.
Especially, this issues dwells on the defense of AH and its modelling. No modelling will ever reenact the real life for 100% for sure, but there is a reason we tend to think AH is believable, and the relative performance differences between the various planes are quite accurately portrayed.
This guy, is challenging that on the grounds of faulty modelling, not situational or circumstantial properties. He is genuinely arguing the physical entity of the P-38 holds the numerical favor against the 109 in turning performance, and the way the self-styled P-38 experts in these forums are just keeping their lips sealed in this matter is quite shocking.
Despite our differences I actually expected them to back me up in this matter, because their love of the P-38 wouldn't go further than where their conscience dictates in regards to simple truth.
Remeber the turn comparison tests? When AH turn performance testings showed that the 109 had a clear advantage in both turning circle and efficiency, it was proven that AH P-38 pilots made it possible to utilize the situational and their skill to defeat many planes that potentially had much superior turning capablites - as per real life. If they thought that portrayal was a fallacy, and the P-38 should have just plain physically outturned those plane from the start, they'd have objected to it since they weren't the ones to hold back on opinion. However, they all admitted that it was as expected.
So where are they now?
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
Come on now, surely you see the foolishness of comparing a two different planes with more than a generation gap apart - couldn't you at least have the decency to try and compare other cases where a certain WW2 era plane weighs more than twice the weight of its opponent, and still maneuvers better?
Well, there's the P-38 and the Me-109. But since you failed to get that one, I used a more dramatic example.
Originally posted by Kweassa
So far all you've come up with was a vague superiority in 'lift-loading', which basically falls apart against wing loading and power loading, because the supremacy in these two factors is already a marker on how a certain plane has better lift efficiency than the other. No plane can have a worse wing loading and power loading, and yet still be better in overall lift loading - unless ofcourse, like I've mentioned, they've got some kind of anti-G device mounted on the fuselage or something.
The P-38 had a much better lifting wing than the Messerschmitt 109. Aside from factors already mentioned by Hilts, the chord ratio was very good for climbing (though not so good for speed). The wing was nearly a perfect lifting wing. How else do you think the P-38 had such a good climb rate? Even at military power, the P-38's climb rate was about four thousand feet per minute. Explain how an airplane weighing twice as much as the Me-109 could do that if, as you claim, wingloading and powerloading are the only factors in turning and climbing.
According to your reasoning, an airplane with a two foot long, twenty foot wide wing will turn as well as an identical aircraft with a twenty foot long, two foot wide wing. This is absurd. Likewise, an airplane with a six inch thick wing would turn the same as an identical airplane with a twelve inch thick wing. Do you see now? Or does your hatred for the P-38 still blind you?
Even if you go by "official" ratings (the ones which were often ignored in the field), the P-38 had nearly twice the power as the Me-109. This did a lot towards cancelling the double weight. The superior lifting wing helped make up the difference, making the P-38 nearly as good of a turner as the 109. Then the Fowler flaps put the cherry on top, making the P-38 a superior turning airplane when the maneuver flaps and maximum power could be utilized - in other words, below 250 M.P.H. and 26,000 feet.
-
I'm not a 38 expert, fellas, But my figuring is, Alot of the most succesful Lightning drivers in this game, would be successful in any ride they chose to concentrate their flying time on.
As far a for the way the modelling in AH...If HTC used a reliable source(That could be subject matter for another thread) then, we should accept it. Keep in mind, that every single combat encounter is different...Speed at merge, alt, fuel load, Never the same twice. So therefore, Pilot judgment, at the initial moment of engagement, can be the critical deciding factor. No matter what you fly.
-
Here's something else interesting.
(http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/turning.jpg)
Now, the same source stated that with maneuver flaps, the P-38 turned as well as the P-63. But that's not all. Look at the Northrop P-61. The Black Widow, without flaps, has a better sustained turn than the P-61, P-47, P-38, and F-4U! The P-61 is roughly the size and weight of a B-25. Now there you have it - weight does not equal turning ability.
-
Your point Benny? The AH 38 turns just fine thank you.
First 4 flights tonite in defense of 41. I never had alt or E. And I'm average at best in my 38G. Shot down 4 F6Fs that wanted to turn fight. Shot down Seafires that wanted to turn fight. Shot down Corsairs that tried to turn.
Died once to a F4U1C that got in a cannon hit that took the tail off.
I can't figure out what the heck you think the problem is with the AH 38?
I feel very confident that this average stick in a 38G is going to do just fine entering any 1 v 1 fight against anything. I'm not even flying the J or L and there are some J and L drivers in this game that do wonders with them
If it's a better stick in that other bird, I'll more then likely die, but it's the driver not the plane because he's getting the best out of his bird
I just can't figure out what you want the AH 38 to do that it doesn't do?
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
Actually, I'm quite surprised to see the real P-38 experts withholding their comments in this post. (Or at least, taking an uncomfortably neutral attitdue)
Basically cause I don't know what the complaint is. Seems like the AH 38 does what it should, as do the 109s.
And at a certain point it's a bit like arguing with some of our old favorite fanatics. No matter what is said, it won't matter.
The entire argument seems silly to me.
-
After reading all of the ranting, raving and arguements I've read numerous times on these BBs before... I forgot what I was going to say:confused:
-
:noid :noid :noid :noid
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
Basically cause I don't know what the complaint is. Seems like the AH 38 does what it should, as do the 109s.
And at a certain point it's a bit like arguing with some of our old favorite fanatics. No matter what is said, it won't matter.
The entire argument seems silly to me.
That's how I see it as well.
ack-ack
-
My complaint is that all of the real evidence says that, given equal terms, the P-38 should out-turn the Me-109 below 250 M.P.H. But in the simulator, this is not so. In fact, it takes quite a difference in pilot skill to make the P-38 out-turn a 109. Do I do it? All the time! But can I do it against a pilot of the same skill? No. And the graphs - kindly provided by Widewing and others - prove that in the simulator, the Me-109 is absolutely superior in turning. And that's wrong.
Once, a good friend and I did an experiment. We both flew P-38 and set up an equal energy merge. Performing nothing but flat turns on the deck, neither of us could get on the other's tail after five minutes. Then we hopped in Me-109s; the result was the same. But when we tried P-38 and Me-109, the Me-109 always won, regardless of who was flying it.
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
My complaint is that all of the real evidence says that, given equal terms, the P-38 should out-turn the Me-109 below 250 M.P.H. But in the simulator, this is not so. In fact, it takes quite a difference in pilot skill to make the P-38 out-turn a 109. Do I do it? All the time! But can I do it against a pilot of the same skill? No. And the graphs - kindly provided by Widewing and others - prove that in the simulator, the Me-109 is absolutely superior in turning. And that's wrong.
Once, a good friend and I did an experiment. We both flew P-38 and set up an equal energy merge. Performing nothing but flat turns on the deck, neither of us could get on the other's tail after five minutes. Then we hopped in Me-109s; the result was the same. But when we tried P-38 and Me-109, the Me-109 always won, regardless of who was flying it.
I haven't found this to be the case when I engage 109s in my 38G. Unless its a far better stick then I am, I can out turn 109s on the deck with everything hanging out just above the stall well below 250
-
This thread is like watching curling on TV. Not a lot of substance, but I can't seem to turn it off :huh
Personally, when I'm in a 38, I'm begging the 109 to try and turn :aok
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
Given equal terms (roughly equal energy states and pilot skill), yes, no German plane ever outturned or outclimbed the P-38 below perhaps 20,000 feet. The FW-190 could match the P-38 in performance, however, and was possibly better at vertical maneuvering.
The P-38 turned best at low speeds (below 250 M.P.H.), not high. Once again you fellows get it wrong. The Messerschmitt had an initial turn advantage, but once the speeds dropped a bit and sustained turn came into play, the P-38 would catch up.
me163 cannot outclimb the 38 ??
-
See Rule #4
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
I still can't figure out what the 38 is doing wrong in AH? I guess I must fly it too much :)
yeah the 38 seems good in balance
I dont see what the problem is either.
All planes are good models of the real things I think
But I never flown the real things eitehr!!!!!!!
:lol
-
I"m not a P-38 expert, I guess I consider myself more of a fan. I've yet to see anything in this thread to make me believe that it is modelled incorrectly. No one has posted any definitive evidence that the 38 is incorrectly modelled in AH. This is the point where I put my trust that HT and Co. have done their homework to the best that it can be done, untill someone finds somthing to the contrary (evidence, data, not conjecture or opinion). I can or can't "out turn" 109's of all models in the game depending on the pilot in the other plane. Rarely do I walk away from my smoldering wreckage of a plane after someone gets the better of me (we do remember that no one dies in here right?) cursing my inferior plane, knowing that despite the fact I am an infallible pilot who does no wrong, but instead is constantly held back by inferior equipment.
-
Originally posted by Soulyss
I"m not a P-38 expert, I guess I consider myself more of a fan. I've yet to see anything in this thread to make me believe that it is modelled incorrectly. No one has posted any definitive evidence that the 38 is incorrectly modelled in AH. This is the point where I put my trust that HT and Co. have done their homework to the best that it can be done, untill someone finds somthing to the contrary (evidence, data, not conjecture or opinion). I can or can't "out turn" 109's of all models in the game depending on the pilot in the other plane. Rarely do I walk away from my smoldering wreckage of a plane after someone gets the better of me (we do remember that no one dies in here right?) cursing my inferior plane, knowing that despite the fact I am an infallible pilot who does no wrong, but instead is constantly held back by inferior equipment.
Right on Bro! :aok
This is their job, and do a lot of research, and they know their SHT for sure.
I trust their modeling too - and glad to be a member. If it isn't perfect, it is GOOD enough and represents a lot of their research and hard work.
:)
-
Originally posted by President
See Rule #4
Wrongway welcome back. Try to keep a civil tounge in your head... So you can stay a while.:p :aok
Bronk
-
President = wrongwayrick?
:noid :noid :noid :noid
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
Here's something else interesting.
(http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/turning.jpg)
Now, the same source stated that with maneuver flaps, the P-38 turned as well as the P-63. But that's not all. Look at the Northrop P-61. The Black Widow, without flaps, has a better sustained turn than the P-61, P-47, P-38, and F-4U! The P-61 is roughly the size and weight of a B-25. Now there you have it - weight does not equal turning ability.
Benny, Navy tests indicate that the F4U-1D should slot in between the F6F-5 and P-51D-15 (but much closer to the F6F-5). In addition, the weight he uses for the P-51D is well below normal operational weight. Removing the under-wing pylons and flying with an empty aux fuel tank doesn't even get the weight as low as the one he plugged into his calculation.
Also, the P-61's wing loading is far below that of the P-38L.
P-38L: 53.4 lb per sq/ft
P-61A: 40.7 lb per sq/ft
This is primary reason why the P-61 turns so well for a large fighter.
Back to the various lift coefficients; From NACA Report #829, which is where Dean plucked the number for the F4U from, is data taken in a wind tunnel for an F4U-1 without a propeller. The lift coefficient without the prop is 1.48. With the propeller turning, the lift coefficient goes up to 2.27, the same as the number he used for the F6F. You can download a copy of report #829 from NASA's report server.
Dean does get one thing right though. The relative minimum turn radius can be compared (by proportion only) by dividing wing loading by the lift coefficient, which is why wing loading is a very important factor.
Flaps increase the lift coefficient. Fowlers also increase wing area (about a 15% effective increase in the P-38). However, other aircraft have flaps too. So, the question is, does the increase in both lift coefficient and decrease in wing loading improve the P-38's turn radius enough to out-turn a Bf 109? I don't think so. It may be very close, but the 109 also has flaps, which will increase its lift coefficient too. I believe that in the real world, just like in the game, the most significant factor can be found in the cockpit.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by President
See Rule #4
:rofl
More of a mouth than a guy who gets PnG'd? I think I've had maybe 3 or 4 posts edited by HTC in 4 years of being on the boards. Nice try though... rick.
;)
-
Originally posted by Widewing
Benny, Navy tests indicate that the F4U-1D should slot in between the F6F-5 and P-51D-15 (but much closer to the F6F-5). In addition, the weight he uses for the P-51D is well below normal operational weight. Removing the under-wing pylons and flying with an empty aux fuel tank doesn't even get the weight as low as the one he plugged into his calculation.
Thanks for clearing that up. I'd always wondered why Corsair pilots weren't afraid to dogfight Zekes if the F-4U really turned that poorly.
-
Originally posted by Stang
President = wrongwayrick?
:noid :noid :noid :noid
Who's Wrongwayrick?
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
Here's something else interesting.
(http://pages.sbcglobal.net/mdegnan/_images/turning.jpg)
Now, the same source stated that with maneuver flaps, the P-38 turned as well as the P-63. But that's not all. Look at the Northrop P-61. The Black Widow, without flaps, has a better sustained turn than the P-61, P-47, P-38, and F-4U! The P-61 is roughly the size and weight of a B-25. Now there you have it - weight does not equal turning ability.
any chances on a link to find these charts, it would be intresting to compare more rides.
-
Originally posted by Benny Moore
My complaint is that all of the real evidence says that, given equal terms, the P-38 should out-turn the Me-109 below 250 M.P.H. But in the simulator, this is not so. In fact, it takes quite a difference in pilot skill to make the P-38 out-turn a 109. Do I do it? All the time! But can I do it against a pilot of the same skill? No. And the graphs - kindly provided by Widewing and others - prove that in the simulator, the Me-109 is absolutely superior in turning. And that's wrong.
Once, a good friend and I did an experiment. We both flew P-38 and set up an equal energy merge. Performing nothing but flat turns on the deck, neither of us could get on the other's tail after five minutes. Then we hopped in Me-109s; the result was the same. But when we tried P-38 and Me-109, the Me-109 always won, regardless of who was flying it.
I make no claims of being a superduper pilot.
but I think you would be able to find quite a few people who would agree Im pretty decent in the 109F.
I have had 38's out turn me in various situations. and I have out turned 38s in various situations.
From m experience it seems to me that yes the 38 can indeed out turn the 109 in this game in an extended flat turns.
Which is why I try to not get into extended flat turns with a 38 with a decent pilot. Once, maybe twice around then its time to do something else or die.
No personal offence intended but I think this has more to due with your frustration of not being able to do what you think the 38 can do as opposed to just what the 38 can do.
In short what Im saying. the 38 CAN do what you claim. You just cant seem to manage to do it. For some reason your just not getting HOW to do it.
Reminds me of a friend of mine who used to play here.
Loved the idea of the pony and what it should be able to do.
Problem is for the longest time and by that I mean YEARS. He found himself being unable to do what the P51 was supposed to do.
His complaints over Vox among us that flew with him were alot like yours here in this thread. "The P51 is supposed to do this or that. But it doesnt here. The plane must be modeled wrong"
His complaining got so bad I used to joke and call him Eeyore
No. the plane wasnt modeled wrong. he. for whatever reason just couldnt figure out whatever it was he needed to to do to make the plane fly the way it was supposed to.
then one day, literally it clicked for him. Whatever it was he was doing wrong. or wasnt doing he finally figured out how to get right. After that it was off to the races for him.
The problem probably is not that the 38 is undermodeled. but rather you just havent figured out that little thing your either doing wrong. or not doing that will allow you to fly it to its full potential.
Alot of people here say "Its the pilot not the plane"
I say its a bit of both
But as a percentage the pilot is slightly more of a determining factor then the plane
And the right combination of pilot type to plane type is probably more cucial then anythng.
Lets face it. we all have out different strengths and weaknesses and no two people are alike.
Given two pilots of equal skill one pilot may eventually down another because that pilot played his strength to the others weaknesses. The very next flight. it might go the other way for the same reasons.
Now overall one pilots skills may be pretty much the same.
But no matter who you are. Nobody is perfect in all areas. We each have some areas we are better in then others.
Just like the planes
As much as a love for the 38 you have. Maybe the 38 just isnt your plane.
Not cause your a poor pilot. but your total strengths and weaknesses do gell well with the 38s.
Or
Could be that like my friend. For whatever reason your just not getting that certain "thing" that your not doing right to make the plane perform the way you beleive it should.
All too often here. as in real life we tend to shift the blame to someone other then ourselves. Saying it must be the fault of this or that rather then looking at ourselves.
As an extreme exaple I point to my son. when he was about 10 years old he wanted to light the candles on his birthday cake. So I handed him the Bic lighter and said. Have at it.
Where he proceeded to point the lighter upside down at the candle and lit the lighter.
Well flame and heat having this natural tendancy to travel up did exactly that. Burning his finger at which point he thre the lighter down and exclaimed "Stupid peice of junk lighter!"
It wasnt the lighers fault at all. But the operator.
now Im not saying your a poor pilot. I have no idea how good or bad you are.
You may be damn good at it for all I know.
But your probably missing some small thing that is keeping you from getting the 38 from performing correctly
-
Originally posted by cobia38
any chances on a link to find these charts, it would be intresting to compare more rides.
That chart was scanned from a book. It's also flawed.
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by cobia38
any chances on a link to find these charts, it would be intresting to compare more rides.
It's from America's Hundred Thousand, by Dean, which is an awesome book, if not for that table, then for the rest of it, which is great.
-
Thank you for your post, Drediock. But I base my determination that the Me-109 is a much better turning airplane than the P-38 in the simulator upon not merely my own experience but also extensive tests by various community members made at or near the best turning speeds. As for pilot ability, I am aware that there is much truth in your words; now that I am able once more to fly with my right hand, I once again out-turn Me-109s more often than they out-turn my P-38.
After reading Widewing's opinion on the probable rightness of the current relationship between the two fighters in question, I have decided to hold my peace on the matter. I would be a fool if I did not recognize the opinion of one with superior knowledge of the subject than myself, and while I still am of the opinion that the P-38 was the superior turner in reality, I defer to Widewing's greater wisdom in this. I consider his opinions of the real P-38's abilities to be worth more than my own due to his more extensive research and better connections.
-
*snicker*
Pleasant to the last, Moore.
-
As a military can opener, I believe the P38 out turns anything.
-
Whos wrong way rick?
:noid
-
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
I make no claims of being a superduper pilot.
but I think you would be able to find quite a few people who would agree Im pretty decent in the 109F.
I have had 38's out turn me in various situations. and I have out turned 38s in various situations.
From m experience it seems to me that yes the 38 can indeed out turn the 109 in this game in an extended flat turns.
Which is why I try to not get into extended flat turns with a 38 with a decent pilot. Once, maybe twice around then its time to do something else or die.
No personal offence intended but I think this has more to due with your frustration of not being able to do what you think the 38 can do as opposed to just what the 38 can do.
In short what Im saying. the 38 CAN do what you claim. You just cant seem to manage to do it. For some reason your just not getting HOW to do it.
Reminds me of a friend of mine who used to play here.
Loved the idea of the pony and what it should be able to do.
Problem is for the longest time and by that I mean YEARS. He found himself being unable to do what the P51 was supposed to do.
His complaints over Vox among us that flew with him were alot like yours here in this thread. "The P51 is supposed to do this or that. But it doesnt here. The plane must be modeled wrong"
His complaining got so bad I used to joke and call him Eeyore
No. the plane wasnt modeled wrong. he. for whatever reason just couldnt figure out whatever it was he needed to to do to make the plane fly the way it was supposed to.
then one day, literally it clicked for him. Whatever it was he was doing wrong. or wasnt doing he finally figured out how to get right. After that it was off to the races for him.
The problem probably is not that the 38 is undermodeled. but rather you just havent figured out that little thing your either doing wrong. or not doing that will allow you to fly it to its full potential.
Alot of people here say "Its the pilot not the plane"
I say its a bit of both
But as a percentage the pilot is slightly more of a determining factor then the plane
And the right combination of pilot type to plane type is probably more cucial then anythng.
Lets face it. we all have out different strengths and weaknesses and no two people are alike.
Given two pilots of equal skill one pilot may eventually down another because that pilot played his strength to the others weaknesses. The very next flight. it might go the other way for the same reasons.
Now overall one pilots skills may be pretty much the same.
But no matter who you are. Nobody is perfect in all areas. We each have some areas we are better in then others.
Just like the planes
As much as a love for the 38 you have. Maybe the 38 just isnt your plane.
Not cause your a poor pilot. but your total strengths and weaknesses do gell well with the 38s.
Or
Could be that like my friend. For whatever reason your just not getting that certain "thing" that your not doing right to make the plane perform the way you beleive it should.
All too often here. as in real life we tend to shift the blame to someone other then ourselves. Saying it must be the fault of this or that rather then looking at ourselves.
As an extreme exaple I point to my son. when he was about 10 years old he wanted to light the candles on his birthday cake. So I handed him the Bic lighter and said. Have at it.
Where he proceeded to point the lighter upside down at the candle and lit the lighter.
Well flame and heat having this natural tendancy to travel up did exactly that. Burning his finger at which point he thre the lighter down and exclaimed "Stupid peice of junk lighter!"
It wasnt the lighers fault at all. But the operator.
now Im not saying your a poor pilot. I have no idea how good or bad you are.
You may be damn good at it for all I know.
But your probably missing some small thing that is keeping you from getting the 38 from performing correctly
hes right - im a good pilot in a pony but cant make the 38 do squat for me. your fighter might pick you, cant always pick you fighter. if the p38 was terrble i doubt u would ever see anyone up it at all. but they are used plenty in the arenas
-
Interesting topic. I'm a noob to this game and been going through the learning curves and crashes.. :D
But for the most part I've been flying the P-38L or the P-51D.. (mostly the 38) I'm slowly learning the game which has a very steep learning curve specially when in a tougher plane to fly.
I'm ok if I can get behind my target, I can stay on them and get the kill from time to time.. However I tend to have problems getting some of the better planes off my tail when the fight turns slow.
I'm wondering if any of you p-38 experts care to give any training? Specifically in turn fighting or more so defensive flying in the 38?
-
Just about anyone on the training staff should be well suited to helping you out, if you want a couple solide names for P-38's I'd look for either Silat or Murdr.
-
Originally posted by crockett
Interesting topic. I'm a noob to this game and been going through the learning curves and crashes.. :D
But for the most part I've been flying the P-38L or the P-51D.. (mostly the 38) I'm slowly learning the game which has a very steep learning curve specially when in a tougher plane to fly.
I'm ok if I can get behind my target, I can stay on them and get the kill from time to time.. However I tend to have problems getting some of the better planes off my tail when the fight turns slow.
I'm wondering if any of you p-38 experts care to give any training? Specifically in turn fighting or more so defensive flying in the 38?
What Soulyss said. Barring that, keep an eye out for some of the 38 drivers in the arenas. 80th is a bunch of 38 sticks. 479th has some good ones, 475th has 38 drivers etc.
Most guys willing to have you tag along and see how it works. If you want to know how to die in multiple way in the 38, give me a yell. I'm an expert at that :)
-
See Rule #4
-
Originally posted by President
See Rule #4
Silat is one of the better players of the community and is always helpful and a great resource if you want to learn how to fly the P-38.
What have you done for the community?
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
What Soulyss said. Barring that, keep an eye out for some of the 38 drivers in the arenas. 80th is a bunch of 38 sticks. 479th has some good ones, 475th has 38 drivers etc.
Most guys willing to have you tag along and see how it works. If you want to know how to die in multiple way in the 38, give me a yell. I'm an expert at that :)
The 479th website is also a treasure trove of information.
479th Fighter Group website (http://479th.jasminemarie.com/)
I'm also willing to help in giving some tips or advise on the P-38 but due to time constraints with work and girlfriend, TA time is very limited.
ack-ack
-
See Rule #4
-
Originally posted by President
See Rule #4
Strange, all I notice is Silat being social on 200..unless you happen to
be one of those squeaky voise teens :D
Sounds like someone has an agenda here..tough to know for sure as
I can't recall any "President" on the roster.
-
See Rule #4, #5
-
Originally posted by President
See Rule #4
Do a search of the training boards for P-38 and you'll see probably a few dozens posts that I've made on how to fly and fight in the P-38 along with the numerous films I've made.
Of course, I've never seen one of your posts in the training boards or any posts from you providing any assistance whatsoever to any new player.
I can also say that I've never been banned from any forums for being an arse...can you say the same? Of course you can't and go figure, you're the one calling someone else a 'tard.
Unless you've got something useful to post in this thread, please stay out and keep your comments to yourself. you're dismissed child.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by President
See Rule #4
Actually your opinion means less than nothing to me. As far as someone
needing help from Lew...I'm sure there are dozens of folks in the arena
who would dispute your drivel.
-
Originally posted by President
See Rule #4
Wow!! For someone new to the game you sure think you know me.
Im guessing you are a TEENAGER and have to little adult supervision at home.
:lol
-
Originally posted by President
See Rule #4, #5
Please by all means post youngman? , not really sure if you are a boy or girl. Hiding behind your BB name and spreading false rumors is very mature.
Im guessing you are one of the little children who has caused some trouble in the training arena. By the way I checked your stats{President) for the most recent tour. You have no stats as you apparently havent been flying or you dont fly under the cpid President. Or is it that you only fly in the Training Arena?
So put your MOUTH out there for us to see young person. Who are you in the game?
Ill be waiting with bated breath for the damning evidence..............
-
Originally posted by Ack-Ack
Do a search of the training boards for P-38 and you'll see probably a few dozens posts that I've made on how to fly and fight in the P-38 along with the numerous films I've made.
Of course, I've never seen one of your posts in the training boards or any posts from you providing any assistance whatsoever to any new player.
I can also say that I've never been banned from any forums for being an arse...can you say the same? Of course you can't and go figure, you're the one calling someone else a 'tard.
Unless you've got something useful to post in this thread, please stay out and keep your comments to yourself. you're dismissed child.
ack-ack
So Im in good company bud. We have both been labeled by a TEEN:)
Im not sure how I will sleep tonight. I guess Ill just blowup Fifi and snuggle by the fire.
-
Damnit Lew, the teen squelch hack is malfunctioning again!
:mad:
-
Originally posted by Silat
I guess Ill just blowup Fifi and snuggle by the fire.
Fifi??!! What happened to Gigi? Listen; invest in a vinyl patch kit.....
My regards,
Widewing
-
Originally posted by Widewing
Fifi??!! What happened to Gigi? Listen; invest in a vinyl patch kit.....
My regards,
Widewing
Damn you !!! Now I will have to spend all weekend explaining to FIFI that there never was a Gigi.
And I do have a patch kit.. My FIFI is the new 3 valve model.
-
Originally posted by Stang
Damnit Lew, the teen squelch hack is malfunctioning again!
:mad:
Stang Im working on it. But without knowing who President is its going to be tough. :)
Maybe his voice isnt hi pitched?
-
Originally posted by Silat
Stang Im working on it. But without knowing who President is its going to be tough. :)
Maybe his voice isnt hi pitched?
Or It's may be so high pitched only dogs can hear ?
Bronk
-
President must be some little teeny you hurt on the teensquelch hack command lew.. :rolleyes:
-
Originally posted by President
if I were you I would ask Murdr
cause if any1 hadnt noticed Silat is one of the channel 200 MOUTHS and pretty mch spends lots of time pickin fights - theres a handful of em u r best to avoid :(
Go with Murdr for the p38 training :aok
I avoid Silat for different reasons. Lets just say that his singing is worse than his flying :rofl
-
Silat is a good stick in the 38 and a good choice for help as is Murdr.
president is obviously hiding ... evidenced by the fact he has not flown in the Main Arenas or if he has, he is embarrassed by his inability and hides behind a name on the BBS.
Hopefully you wont think all folks are as lowly as that on AH.
P.S. By the way... nice to see a new 38 pilot in AH, if you see me in the arenas give me a holler and we can wing.
-
Originally posted by President
See Rule #4, #5
I challenge anyone to find a quote more opposite to the truth than this. You have 24 hours and you can not make up one and post it. No "Slash is smart and good at AH" stuff. ( Angry)
-
Slash is good and smart?? :confused:
:p
-
Originally posted by Slash27
I challenge anyone to find a quote more opposite to the truth than this. You have 24 hours and you can not make up one and post it. No "Slash is smart and good at AH" stuff. ( Angry)
I hate Silat.....................
-
I hate silat more than i do liza minelli
-
I am by no means, a great pilot in the 38. It is one of the planes I like to fly. I think it all boils down, like with all the planes featured, the tactics that work for that style of plane. Like the P40's over China...not the best plane to use....but the best tactics used. Same with any of the planes like F4f, F4u, 109's...etc. Like I said. I am not claiming to even be a good pilot, I just think if you take the time to learn what works....then it will.:aok
-
Originally posted by President
See Rules #4, #5
i think this president dude is prolly mad cuz silat turned him down, see...being one of like 10 females in the game, i see there r alot of guys that dont get any attention from the other gender...president..one word of advice, u'll never win over silats heart actin like this :)
-
I hate silat more than i do liza minelli
Okay... so how often do you 'do' her? :D
-
Originally posted by Kweassa
Okay... so how often do you 'do' her? :D
Ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww www :eek:
-
Originally posted by betty
i think this president dude is prolly mad cuz silat turned him down, see...being one of like 10 females in the game, i see there r alot of guys that dont get any attention from the other gender...president..one word of advice, u'll never win over silats heart actin like this :)
I think you've probably hit on the head. President was probably flirting with Silat on Channel 200 and then heard Silat on vox. I guess President learned a valuable lesson...don't flirt with someone before you hear them on vox.
ack-ack
-
Originally posted by thrila
I hate silat more than i do liza minelli
How do you tell them apart! hee hee Lew is teh best! :aok
-
See Rule #4
-
Wants new rule bbs HITECH if you fly must post under current Cpid. then the fisherman tards slander good people exposed................ Lets see house burt down, first to call my home silat. When i wanted to do a gift for when blammo's child came up missing silat was one of first to act. When blammo's child came come the day he was found, he was carrying his ACEShigh teddy bear. when i got sick again silat calls say any time you want to talk just give a yell.
normal guy hides shades probally can fly so here just to be jerk. isn;t that special, gives short bus wannabe people reason to live.
-
Ummmm, in all fairness the first words Silat ever said to me was along the lines of telling the other pilots to steal my kills. Didnt even know the guy and figured I may have made him mad at some point.
I still dont interact with him all that much like others do, but not that it will matter a whole lot nor that he needs it, I have to speak in his defense some.
When the dude logs on or ups from a field he makes a point to say hello of sorts to most people he comes accross he hasnt said hello to. I have also seen him on countless occasions like others have mentioned help folks out who are having problems with game setup to telling somebody to meet him in the TA for help.
The only times I have ever seen him mouthy is if he's bs'n with an old friend, but never mouthy out of anger.
I also agree with what others are saying as well. Silat is a great 38 driver. Look him up.
-
Hmm all this P-38 Talk is makin me wanna learn one...
Problem is I dont know where to start :(
-
Originally posted by betty
i think this president dude is prolly mad cuz silat turned him down, see...being one of like 10 females in the game, i see there r alot of guys that dont get any attention from the other gender...president..one word of advice, u'll never win over silats heart actin like this :)
Burnnnn!! :lol
-
All I can say is Silat is one of the nicest and most down to Earth women you will ever meet in AH. (Along with Schatzi ;)
Have a nice Day!
-
Originally posted by MOIL
All I can say is Silat is one of the nicest and most down to Earth women you will ever meet in AH. (Along with Schatzi ;)
Have a nice Day!
Moil you are a very handsome man......................
-
Moil you are a very handsome man......................
Lord, I read 4 pages just to see how it got to this point.
p.s. Silat made an international phone call for 30-40 mins to help me fix my computer problems.
-
I dont know about you guys but silat is always mouthing off in ma. And Ive learned to stay away from him and yukon if I want to get any kills. I suck in the 38 and they really make it hard for me.:cry
-
Originally posted by thrila
I hate silat more than i do liza minelli
Funny you said that.... with false eyelashes silat looks alot like liza :lol
-
Originally posted by Silat
snip
Ill be waiting with bated breath
Oh, how romantic :)
culero
-
u know i have to agree with moil on this one...if i was a guy, i would b all over silat..hehe
btw silat.....
i need that skirt back and them fishnet stockings :)
-
No doubt about it...Silat is an asset to the Community and a great 38 driver.
Too bad he's a leftist, Pinko, whacko :t
-
"President" = Yet another tool in the shed who thinks he's cool hiding behind a shades.
"President of the Tool Society" is about par for the course.
-
At the end of the day it comes down to your pixels killing the other pixels first.
-
I was looking through one of my P-38 books for some information when I came across something I didn't know.
quote
" One of the more unusual additions (and a welcome one to the pilot) to the P-38L was the installation of tail warning radar. A AN/APS-13 radar system was fitted within the aft part of the left tail boom. The transmitter-receiver system picked up the presence of an aircraft in a cone behind the P-38L, and immediately warned the pilot of this approaching machine by ringing a warning bell and flashing a warning red light alongside the gunsight"
If were talking about accurate modeling I want my bell
-
Originally posted by Gunston
I was looking through one of my P-38 books for some information when I came across something I didn't know.
quote
" One of the more unusual additions (and a welcome one to the pilot) to the P-38L was the installation of tail warning radar. A AN/APS-13 radar system was fitted within the aft part of the left tail boom. The transmitter-receiver system picked up the presence of an aircraft in a cone behind the P-38L, and immediately warned the pilot of this approaching machine by ringing a warning bell and flashing a warning red light alongside the gunsight"
If were talking about accurate modeling I want my bell
51s had em in the Pacific too. Their usefulness and worth depends on who you ask.
I've seen em in photos of Mustangs but have yet to actually see a 38 photo showing the tail warning radar.
-
Oh well I guess roach busted me in the other thread. I admit I'm President. lol
I obviously hate Silat, he's teh worst 38 driver and meanie in the game! lol
I mean come on, what took you all so long to figgure it out?
:huh lol
-
What are the differences in the J and L models? And how are they to be flown correctly?I really want to be awesome in these aircrafts.
-
Originally posted by Guppy35
51s had em in the Pacific too. Their usefulness and worth depends on who you ask.
I've seen em in photos of Mustangs but have yet to actually see a 38 photo showing the tail warning radar.
According to the IL-2 series (which is not a reliable source, especially for American airplanes), it should be on the right lower vertical stabilizer. However, a quick Google search for P-38Ls is not coming up with any that have the radar antennas there. But I know that at least some P-38Ls had a tail warning radar. While considered problematic when friendly aircraft were on one's wing, it saved the life of at least one photo-reconnaissance pilot. And it was good for the tail-end Charlie, too.