Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: Masherbrum on December 06, 2006, 02:13:07 PM
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ZDNet link (http://news.zdnet.com/2100-1035_22-6140191.html)
The FBI can now activate the mic on any cell phone via GPS software, to listen in on surrounding conversations without anyone knowing. They've used this to keep tabs on two mobsters in NY, per a District Judge. He ruled that the "roving bug" was legal because federal wiretapping law is broad enough to permit eavesdropping even of conversations that take place near a suspect's cell phone.
Only prevention is a bugsweeper 24/7, or keeping the battery out. Congress is going too far, I now consider 9/11 a lame excuse to continue this way. I was effected by 9/11, but now the "bandwagon" needs to park and disappear into the sunset. I'm now fed up with privacy becoming a thing of the past.
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Resistance is futile.
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DOn't worry, Democrats will fix it all! (well, at least they say they will...should be an interesting 4 years)
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:noid
I wonder if Reynolds makes foil hats?
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So dont use a GPS enabled phone. :aok
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Originally posted by FBBone
So dont use a GPS enabled phone. :aok
By law all new phones have GPS, AFAIK.
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Originally posted by Sandman
By law all new phones have GPS, AFAIK.
Correct. But, shhh, let them think they know it's "simple to avoid".
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Maybe make some fast cash installing microphone on/off switches for cell phones?
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Originally posted by Ripsnort
DOn't worry, Democrats will fix it all! (well, at least they say they will...should be an interesting 4 years)
Wow, what a substantive post. It really made me think...about what a dork you are.
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Originally posted by Sandman
By law all new phones have GPS, AFAIK.
What the hell can be the reasoning behind this...wait a minute, I now what the reasoning is, "Lets control some more ****.".
I ment, what is the excuse behind this?
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That's why I ONLY date married women, the Single girls tend to call my wife.
Mac
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I still don't get why people wouldn't just put a switch on the microphone to prevent this, rather than removing the battery.
Pretty crafty way to bug a phone though. Makes me wonder what other stuff can be done with the electronics we use every day.
I wish that this info had not been made public though, as I'm sure the technique was very effective in providing security and intelligence.
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Originally posted by FBBone
So dont use a GPS enabled phone. :aok
I dont think GPS has anything to do with it.
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Originally posted by FBBone
So dont use a GPS enabled phone. :aok
WTF does that have to do with the thread?
Originally posted by Sandman
By law all new phones have GPS, AFAIK.
Incorrect.
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Originally posted by ByeBye
I dont think GPS has anything to do with it.
Nuke, it does for the most part. The software that they use, goes on GPS, IIRC. I'll ask my neighbor, he works for Nextel, and whom I get a dirt cheap plan from. I had already turned off GPS, on my phone, but I'd still like to see if it mattered. My guess is they somehow override the setting.
But, like I said, I'll talk to my neighbor and see if anything else can be made of this.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Nuke, it does for the most part. The software that they use, goes on GPS, IIRC. I'll ask my neighbor, he works for Nextel, and whom I get a dirt cheap plan from. I had already turned off GPS, on my phone, but I'd still like to see if it mattered. My guess is they somehow override the setting.
But, like I said, I'll talk to my neighbor and see if anything else can be made of this.
I used to work as a technician at Bell Atlantic Mobile about 10 years and I am familiar with how both analog and digital cell phones and cell systems work.
A cell system does not need GPS in order to locate or transmit to a handset. Digital cell sites ARE syncronized via satelite.
The service provider would had to have let the FBI download into a phone, more than likey.
Really, GPS has nothing to do with how this was done, imo.
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AFAIK, the GPS addition was part of the E911 law.
Hell... my cellphone has two settings for GPS, "Location on" or "911 Only"
There is no position display available to the user though.
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There's no requirement for GPS. The E911 legislation provides carriers with the option to use either radio triangulation from towers OR to use GPS.
Take a guess what most carriers choose.... :D
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Ummm, while I don't profess to be a cellphone genius....
Kaplan's opinion said that the eavesdropping technique "functioned whether the phone was powered on or off." Some handsets can't be fully powered down without removing the battery; for instance, some Nokia models will wake up when turned off if an alarm is set.
ya right. If you turn the freakin radio off how can you remote enable the freakin radio?
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Originally posted by Vulcan
Ummm, while I don't profess to be a cellphone genius....
ya right. If you turn the freakin radio off how can you remote enable the freakin radio?
Well, here is my guess......since I have been away for awhile.
A powered on cell phone is constantly being paged and paging the cell system while not in a call.
It's possible that when you power down a cell phone ( screen is off, no input from key) that the transciever is still on.......you just can't see the phone as being on.
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I'm not a NY mobster, wont affect me any, I don't care what they do as long as it does not affect ME!!!!!!, the only thing that matters is will it directly affect ME!!!!!
shamus
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Also, if there's one thing we can be sure of, it's that a strong central government will never abuse a power it is given.
If you can't trust the government... who CAN you trust?
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Originally posted by ByeBye
Well, here is my guess......since I have been away for awhile.
A powered on cell phone is constantly being paged and paging the cell system while not in a call.
It's possible that when you power down a cell phone ( screen is off, no input from key) that the transciever is still on.......you just can't see the phone as being on.
Well the way it works on modern phones/smart phones is you can never fully turn them off unless you remove the battery. BUT you can turn the radio off, this is to comply with flight requirements. So yes the phone/smartphone is not off, but its radio is shut down complete, it cannot transmit nor receive. So at this point I don't see how it is possible.
IMHO the phone would have to:
- have the radio on
- have some sort of backdoor/firmware to allow the mic to be enabled
- or alternately been infected with some sort of trojan
There'd be some giveaways that your phone was transmitting as well, battery life, the interference when near speakers, and a few other things.
Sounds to me like the article is 50% BS, I've no doubt they did what they did, just some of the stuff there like the turning the radio on remotely is away in fairyland.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Correct. But, shhh, let them think they know it's "simple to avoid".
I have an old phone, no GPS, Simple!!!!:noid :noid :noid
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FBBone: Why do you think GPS has anything to do with this?
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Originally posted by Chairboy
WTF does that have to do with the thread?
Umm, lets see.......................... ....The FBI can now activate the mic on any cell phone via GPS software, to listen in on surrounding conversations without anyone knowing. They've used this to keep tabs on two mobsters in NY, per a District Judge. He ruled that the "roving bug" was legal because federal wiretapping law is broad enough to permit eavesdropping even of conversations that take place near a suspect's cell phone.[/I]
That help at all???
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BTW, even if GPS has nothing to do with it and they want to listen in on me, well the fact that I spend any time at all on these boards should tell you how dull my life is. More power to em, if they can stay awake!;)
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What's a cell phone?
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I use two soup cans and some string!:huh
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Originally posted by uberhun
I use two soup cans and some string!:huh
Most people don't need artificial enhancements to talk to themselves. I'm really surprised you admitted this..... :huh
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Originally posted by Maverick
Most people don't need artificial enhancements to talk to themselves. I'm really surprised you admitted this..... :huh
Oh your not that suprised......Your just jealous that you can't hear the voices inside my head telling me to do things to small petshop rodents. I like to hide em!:O
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I wonder if it's why I'm always out of batteries ... :noid
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Originally posted by Thrawn
What the hell can be the reasoning behind this...wait a minute, I now what the reasoning is, "Lets control some more ****.".
I ment, what is the excuse behind this?
This is their reasoning; the mob enjoys their rights to privacy. Back in the day if you frustrated the .gov and got away with poop, thats just the way it went until they got enough evidence.. if it took years, so be it. Frustrate the .gov these days, they just peel away whatever privacy / rights get in their way.
"The FBI's "applications made a sufficient case for electronic surveillance," Kaplan wrote. "They indicated that alternative methods of investigation either had failed or were unlikely to produce results, in part because the subjects deliberately avoided government surveillance.""
Remember the loss of habeas corpus?, sure it's supposed to be aimed at "terrorists" et al, but when you frustrate the .gov by enjoying your rights, they'll use whatever "tools" at their disposal, completely perverting the spirit of the law.
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Originally posted by uberhun
Oh your not that suprised......Your just jealous that you can't hear the voices inside my head telling me to do things to small petshop rodents. I like to hide em!:O
:lol :aok
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FWIW, if you want secure communications do not use a cell phone or any other broadcast medium. Once you put it on the air it is subject to interception by anyone who wishes to get the proper equipment.
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Originally posted by Sandman
By law all new phones have GPS, AFAIK.
What?
Global Positioning System via satellites have to be installed in all US cellphones?? :O
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Originally posted by Maverick
FWIW, if you want secure communications do not use a cell phone or any other broadcast medium. Once you put it on the air it is subject to interception by anyone who wishes to get the proper equipment.
Over the air, over the wire, on paper in the mail, anything. This is one of the reasons why encryption is important to liberty in an electronic society.
The real problem here isn't that these people were talking on the cell phone, it's that their cell phone (which was on their person) turned into a "bug" and recorded conversations that were taking place around them. Short of segregating all of your electronics in faraday cages when you want privacy, there aren't a lot of ways to insure it.
Product idea: A "cell phone case" that's sound proof that you store your phone in. It has one of those "blink when a cell phone is communicating" lights on the outside so that it tells you when you're being called (and works with any cell phone) but keeps your phone from bugging you in the meantime.
Personally, I don't think it's unreasonable to predict a future where cell phones casually listen to conversations around them and AIs listen for key phrases to send to law enforcement, all "in the interest of protecting us from the (insert threat here)". Computing power gets cheaper, sound processing gets easier, cell phones become more ubiquitous.... why _wouldn't_ a government take advantage of being able to bug essentially the entire population (for its own good) other than nut jobs like me and Lazs objecting? I notice that the number of people on this board that tacitly accept that the government will never do wrong is increasing, and I wonder if it reflects the rest of society. You don't have to be a chicken little (who constantly panics and says "the gubmint is coming! the gubmint is coming!") to be wary of an organization that has recently shown a casual disregard for the rights and liberties that shape our nation.
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Originally posted by Nilsen
What?
Global Positioning System via satellites have to be installed in all US cellphones?? :O
Nope. The carriers need to have some method for determining roughly where a phone is (for emergency purposes only, of course) and can choose between GPS or a method that involves radio triangulation from cell towers.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
Nope. The carriers need to have some method for determining roughly where a phone is (for emergency purposes only, of course) and can choose between GPS or a method that involves radio triangulation from cell towers.
That makes more sense as it would cost a bundle to insert a GPS module in every cellphones. Im prolly gonna get GPS in my next cellphone but they are very expencive.
Since the dawn of GSM phones they have been easy to track down using triangulation to within a few meters depending on buildings and whatnot so that is easy. We even had a box on our ship in the navy to sniff for folks using their cellphones when they were not allowed to. It could not detect were in the ship it came from (of course) but if we did "hear" one there would be a search done and the guilty one would get a flogging and or/ held under water for 30 minutes.
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Wow!!, imagine if your tv or puter could be used as a listening or video device, how scary!!!...say that would make for a cool science fiction book.
shamus
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Well... wasnt there a story about about the CIA putting chips in printers (or was it copyers) delivered to Iraq that made them "call home" when they got online?
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Originally posted by Shamus
Wow!!, imagine if your tv or puter could be used as a listening or video device, how scary!!!...say that would make for a cool science fiction book.
shamus
At the same time, optimize the language to foster proper mental hygiene. Perhaps some sort of newspeak would be appropriate?
PS, we have always been at war with pacifica.
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Originally posted by Maverick
FWIW, if you want secure communications do not use a cell phone or any other broadcast medium. Once you put it on the air it is subject to interception by anyone who wishes to get the proper equipment.
Proper equipment was nothing more than a hacked Radio Shack scanner 10 years ago, un hacked you could still get "ghost" cell transmissions off local cells and just about every cordless phone (39.14 to 42.00 and 900.00 ish) out there. You can still hear lots of cordless phones if you know where to look.
Its still that easy, but not as cheap... the mother of all monitoring equipment can be purchased at http://www.winradio.com the Euro unlocked PCI cards / USB can scan, log, record and with proper software decode just about any scrambled signal submitted into the airways in the USA.. the US versions have these freqs blocked... but thats what e-bay is for.
Its scary easy, my buddy is a HAM / radio nut who has the Euro one with some wazoo software he got from the newsgroups.. we were listening to some cool random stuff..
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A Code Division Mulitple Acess (CDMA) is pretty much impossible to hack into and listen in on.
CDMA is WWII technology and is VERY secure.
Before digital, the AMPS ( Advanced Mobile Phone System) was very easy to listen in on at least one side of a cell trasmission. Motorolla phones could be placed in test mode and made to listen to specific channels.
That's all gone now with CDMA.
GSM is secure too, but not as secure as CDMA.
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For private citizens to hack into, perhaps. But if you don't think the government has the capability to just hook in at the central office, yer mistaken. In fact, that's one of the demands they're making of VoiP software makers because they're worried they won't be able to listen in on these encrypted streams over the internet.
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Originally posted by Chairboy
For private citizens to hack into, perhaps. But if you don't think the government has the capability to just hook in at the central office, yer mistaken. In fact, that's one of the demands they're making of VoiP software makers because they're worried they won't be able to listen in on these encrypted streams over the internet.
A CDMA transmission in itself is pretty much impossible to listent to. In a cell phone network, the initial wirless part of the call is normally only the begining of what the call will be transformed into.
What's the "central office" ?
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ByeBye, don't confuse "the signal is encrypted between the phone and tower" with "the signal is always encrypted". There are plenty of points between the phone and the other end of the call where it's unencrypted.
Think about it, the analog phone you receive the call on isn't decrypting anything.
That's just silly.
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Chairboy, did you read my previous post?
By the way, I stated only that a CDMA transmission in nearly impossible to hack. And CDMA does not have to be encrypted to be secure.
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ByeBye, I think the real issue here is that you didn't read my post. You're talking about citizens tapping the calls, I'm talking about the government being able to listen in on the calls (as per the original subject of this thread).
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Originally posted by Chairboy
ByeBye, I think the real issue here is that you didn't read my post. You're talking about citizens tapping the calls, I'm talking about the government being able to listen in on the calls (as per the original subject of this thread).
I read your posts.
You reponded to a portion of the thread in which I responed to a person stating that a citizen could go to Radio Shack and buy something that can hack into modern cell phone systems.
And the government can not listen in on CDMA cell transmissions, as far as I have ever heard. They could tap into the call once/if it gets transmitted over a different media........like a phone line.
Still, they don't have a "central office" for cell phones.
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ByeBye: Central office, computer terminal, call it whatever makes you feel good. The cell company makes facilities available for the government to monitor anything they want. There's more than one thing being discussed here, try and keep up!
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Originally posted by Chairboy
ByeBye: Central office, computer terminal, call it whatever makes you feel good. The cell company makes facilities available for the government to monitor anything they want. There's more than one thing being discussed here, try and keep up!
No, the cell company does not give any information to the government unless it's under a court order. And there is no "central office" that the government has access too.
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Originally posted by ByeBye
No, the cell company does not give any information to the government unless it's under a court order. And there is no "central office" that the government has access too.
Really? My neighbor is sitting here and just told me they get requests for triangulation for 911 calls at times. No "court order" needed. FBI, CIA, NSA and other's will rape the system as they see fit.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Really? My neighbor is sitting here and just told me they get requests for triangulation for 911 calls at times. No "court order" needed. FBI, CIA, NSA and other's will rape the system as they see fit.
Yeah? What does your neighbor do?
Not to burst your bubble or anything, but 911 calls are usually emergency calls and they get treated as such.
Not many folks use the 911 number for terrorism.....or anything else. :lol
Christ!
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Originally posted by ByeBye
Yeah? What does your neighbor do?
Controls all DAP's and Switches in SE Michigan for a major Cell Phone Carrier.
Again, the govt. will do what they want regarding "information they MUST HAVE at all costs".