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General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: cav58d on December 10, 2006, 12:26:39 AM

Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: cav58d on December 10, 2006, 12:26:39 AM: Scenario - A father comes home one night to find out his seventeen year old daughter has been raped by a eighteen year old male she was chatting to on myspace. (The myspace page brags about drug use, and even has explecit instructions to make cocaine)....Upon finding how his daughter has been raped, the father grabs his gun, tracks down the kid and kills him. The father immediately drives to his towns police station and turns himself in. When questioned, the father admits he knew exactly what he was doing.

You're on the jury. What would your recommendation be in sentencing? How hard or soft would you be?
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: rpm on December 10, 2006, 12:30:40 AM: 20 years
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Neubob on December 10, 2006, 12:31:44 AM: 17 is old enough to have a brain. Or at least part of one... On the other hand, what sort of upbringing did dear old dad provide if she's intentionally seeking out guys who brag about cooking up cocaine?

If the kid had lived, I'd have thrown the book at him for rape, but the other two in this sweet little fairytale are far from innocent.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Masherbrum on December 10, 2006, 12:32:45 AM: Quote
Originally posted by rpm
20 years

Ditto.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: cav58d on December 10, 2006, 12:39:49 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Neubob
what sort of upbringing did dear old dad provide if she's intentionally seeking out guys who brag about cooking up cocaine?

I think you can bring your kid up in the best environment, and they can still resort to talking to fools like this. Remember, its a seventeen year old impressionable girl.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: cav58d on December 10, 2006, 12:40:21 AM: Well let me add something......

In this scenario, say the state is trying for the death penalty.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Wolfala on December 10, 2006, 12:41:36 AM: Give'm a medal.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: DiabloTX on December 10, 2006, 12:43:25 AM: Life.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Neubob on December 10, 2006, 12:44:22 AM: Quote
Originally posted by cav58d
I think you can bring your kid up in the best environment, and they can still resort to talking to fools like this. Remember, its a seventeen year old impressionable girl.

Actually, I'm thinking that the kind of guy that would bring up a girl to be an idiot like that is exactly the kind of guy that would take the law into his own hands and, with aforethought, deal his already injured family another vicious blow by becoming a convicted murderer.

20 years.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: cav58d on December 10, 2006, 12:44:43 AM: I think I would say 10 without paroll
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Kurt on December 10, 2006, 12:47:41 AM: Quote
Originally posted by rpm
20 years

Jury's decide Guilt or Innocence, not length of sentence like that.

Sadly, as a juror even understanding the fathers position I find him guilty as long as evidence supports that his confession is true.

Rape does not justify murder any more than murder would justify rape.

As a father of a teen myself, I can tell you I would want to kill him... And I MIGHT kill him... But, I would expect my penalty, just as the rapist in your story got his death penalty.

If I deal out death and judgement on my own, then I am subject to judgement. So it goes.

Anyhow, long story short, the commision of crime by that kid does not make the father's crime any less heinous. Guilt is the only possible result.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Neubob on December 10, 2006, 12:48:33 AM: Quote
Originally posted by cav58d
I think I would say 10 without paroll

Where is this coming from, or is this just a 2 am hypothetical?
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Meatwad on December 10, 2006, 12:49:46 AM: Innocent, her father removed a drug addict scumbag from the earth.

If the loser was still alive, who knows how many more he would of hurt. Good riddance to garbage
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: cav58d on December 10, 2006, 12:53:06 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Neubob
Where is this coming from, or is this just a 2 am hypothetical?

It's just out of my mind, 2 AM hypothetical off the wall scenario. I have been writing a research paper for three days straight now with minimal sleep, and this is the first thing that came to mind after 10 minutes of blank ideas on the paper
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Masherbrum on December 10, 2006, 01:14:54 AM: Quote
Originally posted by cav58d
I think I would say 10 without paroll

Murder is 20, not 10. What you're talking about is "Manslaughter". In the scenario you describe, there is some "premeditation" as he's "tracking him down and killing him."

20 - Life.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Debonair on December 10, 2006, 01:17:34 AM: its a ridiculous hypothetical cause i know how to avoid jury duty
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: cav58d on December 10, 2006, 01:21:19 AM: lmao Deb. "I hate black people"
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: john9001 on December 10, 2006, 08:03:50 AM: time is a factor, if he went after the rapist right away defense will argue no premeditation, defense will argue he went to threaten the rapist not kill, but upon confrontation he was attacked and defended himself.

jury will decide what they think is truth.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Dago on December 10, 2006, 08:25:19 AM: I agree with 20 years. I can understand and would forgive the Father handing out a royal buttwhooping, but not killing.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Ball on December 10, 2006, 09:53:13 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Neubob
17 is old enough to have a brain. Or at least part of one... On the other hand, what sort of upbringing did dear old dad provide if she's intentionally seeking out guys who brag about cooking up cocaine?

how did you gather that from the above situation? there is no harm at all in chatting to someone.

how do you know that she hadnt been chatting to him trying to get him off drugs? you are assuming the worst.

If it was found that the girl was completely not at fault for the situation then I would give him 10 years and an apology.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: lasersailor184 on December 10, 2006, 09:56:28 AM: I'd actually say 5 years.

I would be more lenient if he tried to let the state punish the rapist, but the state didn't come through. Vigilantism is the last resort, not the first.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: straffo on December 10, 2006, 10:06:58 AM: My sentence (for the father) : Death

Why :
He failed to protect his daughter.
To add insult to injury he prevented himself to be able to protect her in the future.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: lazs2 on December 10, 2006, 10:16:05 AM: two things....

first, there is not enough information on the rape. There is not enough info on what drove the dad to do it. was it a brutal rape by a future predator who is not only better off dead but better for the rest of us that he is dead? Was the sight of the rape victim so horrific as to drive him to it? why did he do it?

second, you guys don't seem to understand what a juror is. A juror has not only the right and the duty to decide guilt or inocence based on the evidence but... based on how he feels about the law... is the law just? will justice be served if he upholds an injust law? that is why they ask jurors in drug cases if they thing drug laws are just... that is why they ask jurors in firearms cases if they are some kind of "second amendment and constitution nut". jurors have the right and the duty to strike down unjust laws.

prosecutors know this soooo... they will look at the case and if the rape was brutal or could cause sympathy they won't even try for first degree murder... the jury might.... probly would... let the guy go. sooooo.. the prosecutor would probly ask for some kind of manslaughter conviction so the jurors could convict with good concience.

lazs
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Shamus on December 10, 2006, 10:54:29 AM: Well now that we have taken discretion of judges out of the equation, in this state he gets life without parole.

isn't mandatory sentencing a great thing?

shamus
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: lazs2 on December 10, 2006, 11:11:51 AM: why would he get life for 2nd degree manslauter for instance? and... he get's nothing if the jury does not convict.

Why is the judge better at figuring out a sentance than say a jury?

In order for him to get the mandatory life sentance... he would have to be charged with first degree murder and then, a jury, knowing the mandatory sentance, would have to convict on the first degree murder charge.

lazs
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Holden McGroin on December 10, 2006, 11:17:30 AM: But he did commit 1st degree murder.

He premeditated, hunted down his quarry, and dispatched him. If the motive was money instead of revenge, there would be no question to debate here.

The question of this thread is whether there is a reason that justifies a cold blooded premeditated murder.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: lazs2 on December 10, 2006, 11:20:53 AM: yep... but even more... is it murder? the jury can decide that. they can refuse to convict.

lazs
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: MoeRon on December 10, 2006, 11:30:24 AM: what was the plea?
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: DREDIOCK on December 10, 2006, 11:35:39 AM: BS

Anyone rapes my daughter.
they better pray the law gets to them before me.
and they better pray they dont get out of jail before I die.

Cause anyone rapes my daughter. I WILL kill them. No "maybe". no "might"
It WILL happen and there isnt the smallest shred of thought I wouldnt do it.

Or at the very least I am cutting off their genitalia and in front of them chopping it in such small peices that it cant be re-attached.

I once chain whipped someone for stealing my sisters Halloween candy when she was Trick or Treating.
No doubt in my mind what Id do to someone who raped my daughter

I say guilt with extenuating circumstances
10 year sentance-suspended
5 years probation
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: DYNAMITE on December 10, 2006, 11:38:00 AM: I hate to say it but i'd give him life with parole... It sounds harsh (and yes i can see his actions in myself) but we need to live by the law or we would descend into chaos. Now if you had said... u know the kid, you know where to find him, but the cops did nothing despite your pleas... then i might let him walk

its tricky...
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: DREDIOCK on December 10, 2006, 11:38:29 AM: Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
Why is the judge better at figuring out a sentance than say a jury?

lazs

He doesnt. He has sentancing guidlines he has to follow.
Some have discretionary options. Some do not
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: midnight Target on December 10, 2006, 11:38:52 AM: Quote
Originally posted by Neubob
Actually, I'm thinking that the kind of guy that would bring up a girl to be an idiot like that is exactly the kind of guy that would take the law into his own hands and, with aforethought, deal his already injured family another vicious blow by becoming a convicted murderer.

20 years.

Ever have a teenage child?

The 1st part of this comment is silly, the second half is dead on. The guy compounded the problem for his family by acting like an idiot. He sould get at least 20 years.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Dago on December 10, 2006, 11:42:37 AM: Any of you "I'd kill the guy" types thought of it this way: you have a son, and a girl falsely accuses him of raping her. Before anything is proven, her father shows up at your house and kills your son. Still think that is the answer, a father runs over and kills the young man out of hand?

It is just because of this we cannot condone or practice irrational vigilanete justice, and must prosecute and punish those who follow this action.

To be honest, if I caught someonein the act of raping my child, and it was obvious it was forcible rape, I am sure I would kill the person.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Holden McGroin on December 10, 2006, 12:04:58 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Dago
It is just because of this we cannot condone or practice irrational vigilanete justice, and must prosecute and punish those who follow this action.

However rational vigilante justice...
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Maverick on December 10, 2006, 12:22:08 PM: Couple things here.

First off most jurisdictions have multiple categories of murder. This is not manslaughter, that is a different situation.

First degree murder or what is commonly called "cold blooded premeditated"murder. A murder with particularly evil intent or heinous process. Think son of sam, charles manson, dahmer and so on.

Second degree murder. This can be thought of like the scenario that started the thread, A heat of passion situation where "rational" thought and normal societal hindrences drop in a fit of rage.

Then you have manslaughter, a situation where the ending of life was NOT the intent but happened as a secondsary result of the act that ended up causing it. Think acidental discharge, killing with a motor vehicle in a traffic collision (non intentionally), giving a drug to a person which causes a death and so on. There are usually different levels of manslaughter as well like murder.

Secondly, in more than one state the jury CAN decide which is the appropriate charge for conviction. The state may prosecute for murder 1 for example and the jury can find for 2nd degree instead. A sentence hearing can be held immediately afterwards to determine the penalty. It all depends on how the law is written in the pertinant state.

In the scenario that started the thread I'd guess that 2nd degree would be tried and convicted. The penalty will also be variable dependant on the mens rhea (eveil intent) and how it was doen. If the suspect WAS the rapist and Dad tortured the guy to death then it's murder 1 likely or murder 2 with max penalty. My guess in this case 2nd degree murder with 15 to 20 years and time off for good behavior. Figure he'd be out in 7 years.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: lasersailor184 on December 10, 2006, 01:13:32 PM: Quote
It sounds harsh (and yes i can see his actions in myself) but we need to live by the law or we would descend into chaos.

Funniest line this whole post. :rofl
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Dago on December 10, 2006, 01:19:24 PM: Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Funniest line this whole post. :rofl

No, his line made sense, yours didn't.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: VOR on December 10, 2006, 01:23:11 PM: He needed killin'.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: lasersailor184 on December 10, 2006, 01:39:50 PM: Quote
No, his line made sense, yours didn't.

Oh cmon Dago, that was standard "We need the government" think.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Dago on December 10, 2006, 03:06:14 PM: Quote
Originally posted by lasersailor184
Oh cmon Dago, that was standard "We need the government" think.

I thought instead it was him stating the reality of our society, recognizing we need to resist the more base instincts of people to react in an emotional angry manner, and instead act as the thinking man realizing the need to resist the immediate emotional impluse to instead follow the established norms of a system of law and justice.

My mistake.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: AWMac on December 10, 2006, 04:19:53 PM: He should have just shot the balls off the donuthead... let him live a full life without a P3n1s... But then again I'm just a Father.

Mac

ohh 5 Years.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Silat on December 10, 2006, 04:26:20 PM: Quote
Originally posted by Meatwad
Innocent, her father removed a drug addict scumbag from the earth.

If the loser was still alive, who knows how many more he would of hurt. Good riddance to garbage

So you are for someone murdering Oxyrush?
Title: Re: You're on the jury.
Post by: x0847Marine on December 10, 2006, 06:02:59 PM: Quote
Originally posted by cav58d
Scenario - A father comes home one night to find out his seventeen year old daughter has been raped by a eighteen year old male she was chatting to on myspace. (The myspace page brags about drug use, and even has explecit instructions to make cocaine)....Upon finding how his daughter has been raped, the father grabs his gun, tracks down the kid and kills him. The father immediately drives to his towns police station and turns himself in. When questioned, the father admits he knew exactly what he was doing.

You're on the jury. What would your recommendation be in sentencing? How hard or soft would you be?

Depends on the time it took to "track" the kid down, any longer than 30 minutes and the 'heat of passion' / 'temp insanity' defenses start to fade and the father is a murderer.

187PC - murder; The unlawful killing of a human being or fetus with malace aforethought.

If upon learning the father made straight lines to his weapon, then the kid, manslaughter.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: lazs2 on December 11, 2006, 08:37:21 AM: we don't have enough information.

The prosocutor could indeed make it even 2nd degree manslaughter... the man could have gone to the parents of the boys house to confront them and then... an arguement turned into a fight turned into a killing.

The prosocutor needs to review the evidence... if the girl has been raped violently and the dna is there and the thing went down as I described...

No jury would convict based on the above scenario and a murder charge.. the prosocutor would go for manslaughter charge.

Judges? what is the difference between guildlines and mandatory sentances? the judges have guidlines and mandatory sentances impossed on them because they have done such a poor jub as a whole.

lazs
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Gunthr on December 11, 2006, 09:40:31 AM: I think you'd have to sit in the jury box and listen to the evidence and the arguments to arrive at a just decision, since the scenario leaves some questions unanswered.

Past that, I have to say that there is no way I would murder the rapist unless I lost my mind. My responsibilities to my kids would outway my desire for revenge, and I'd worry that my daughter would blame herself for the whole tragedy.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: john9001 on December 11, 2006, 10:22:39 AM: i would just call my uncle Vito, the "problem" would be taken care of quietly.
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Shamus on December 11, 2006, 12:33:45 PM: Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
we don't have enough information.

The prosocutor could indeed make it even 2nd degree manslaughter... the man could have gone to the parents of the boys house to confront them and then... an arguement turned into a fight turned into a killing.

The prosocutor needs to review the evidence... if the girl has been raped violently and the dna is there and the thing went down as I described...

No jury would convict based on the above scenario and a murder charge.. the prosocutor would go for manslaughter charge.

Judges? what is the difference between guildlines and mandatory sentances? the judges have guidlines and mandatory sentances impossed on them because they have done such a poor jub as a whole.

lazs

A judge normally has knowledge of a lot more of the circumstances of the case than the jury.

You could very easily have the facts of the rape kept from the jury by a prosecutor's motion due to its inflammatory nature.

If the jury convicts, the judge used to be able to take facts unknown by the jury into consideration in sentencing, they cant do that with mandatory sentencing, but this is what most seem to want, cookie cutter, simple justice, that's why he would get life without parole here.

BTW, from what I have seen of this case, the prosecutor in my county would file for 1st degree, we have dozens of 2nd degree murder convictions for DWI causing death here, don't you think the intent to kill was far stronger in this case?

shamus
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Bucky73 on December 11, 2006, 01:49:48 PM: If Denny Crane is his lawyer.I'd let him off.:rofl

If not then 8-10years. Although I can't say I wouldn't react the same if I was in his position.:D
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: lazs2 on December 11, 2006, 02:04:42 PM: who said he intended to kill? He goes over to talk to the parents/kid and they give him a bunch of crap and a fight ensues. The fight turns out bad for the kid and he dies.

lazs
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: Shamus on December 11, 2006, 03:41:02 PM: LOL...ok lazs, whatever you say.

I was going by the "grabs his gun, tracks the kid down and kills him" part.

Now if you want to put a bunch of what if's into this be my guest, I think I am done here :)

shamus
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: lazs2 on December 12, 2006, 08:55:07 AM: I thought law and trials were all about "what ifs"?

I think the whole thing is pointless in any case... plenty of real cases to examine. this fake one was meant to get a reaction. You bit.

My point remains... you have to establish intent to establish murder. We don't have enough to go on. Lots of people carry guns. it isn't even against the law. Does merely having the gun make you a murderer if you are forced to use it? of course not. (not yet anyway).

the whole scenario was purposely left ambiguous in order to get a rise out of people and make people jump to conclusions in my opinion.

lazs
Title: You're on the jury.
Post by: FiLtH on December 12, 2006, 09:57:02 AM: For murder he'd have to do prison time. They need to change the law when a capital offense is committed against a family member you can take revenge on that person with reduced sentence. Just hope the dead boy doesnt have family :)