Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: rimfirematt on December 11, 2006, 10:40:43 AM
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If there is one aircraft that seems to consitently get the best of me it is that stinking KI84!
Ive read sodas evaluation of it. Anyone else got some tips to share for fighting against this thing?
I mostly fly the f4u's, the A model being my current ship.
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This would probably be better in the help and training forum.
Ki84's enemy is speed and alt. Don't try a simple turn fight with one because chances are he'll out turn you. Speed is its enemy. It performs worse at high speed, and at around 450+ it sheds control surfaces. Keep your speed high and go for angles if you can but don't bleed your E for that "one shot" unless you know you're going to kill him.
Ki84 is an uber plane, don't forget it. It's like going up against a better turning Spit16.
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That's why I think the Ki-84 should be perked LONG before the Spixteen. Fortunately, the 84 isn't as ludicrously overused.
Anyway, rim, as Krusty said stay fast. Use the Hog's advantage in E-retention (GOTTA love that mass) to zoom on him. Avoid flat turns and use more vertical, especially High Yo's and pursuit rolls if he breaks on you. What sometimes works if he's behind you and you have a little separation is a tight climbing spiral to the left. He'll bleed out his E FAR faster than you will, then it's a matter of rolling over and dropping on him when he has to put his nose down. Use your flaps! This cannot be stressed enough for the Corsairs against ANY opponent. You can't drop them above 250mph, so generally you'll be in trouble against a Frank by that point, but they can give you just enough of a kick to haul that nose around for a shot.
Franks also appear worse about those instant course changes to throw off your shot than about any other plane in the set, so they can be very tough to hit, and when you do they don't fall apart like a Zeke or Spit, so expect to fire longer bursts once you get your shot.
Finally, if you have the altitude to work with and are out of option, point that big nose down and punch full power and WEP and dive for the deck. The F4U will clear 600mph and remain controllable. The Frank starts to fall apart around 450. You don't need a whole lot of math to figure the result if that 84 is foolish enough to try and follow.
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Meh, the spit16 is worse for high-end reasons. The Ki can beat most low and slow, but the spixteen can pull UFO moves in the vertical, climb almost 1000fpm more than the Ki, rolls like a 190, can dive with you, catch up to you in a dive, and...
I was zooming in at 500mph to the tail of a spit16. He was level, flying directly away. As I get to 700 he breaks up HARD, so hard I see him top-down planform as I blow past (I'd have had him if I wasn't in a K-4, stupid 30mm) he pulls this 6+ G completely vertical loop, comes around, and levels out, and CATCHES a 109K-4 doing 500+.
THAT is why the spit16 needs to be perked.
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No, that's why the Spixteen needs to be FIXED. There's some BS going on with that FM to be sure.
And I'd like to know where the HELL they found that DU to armor the Merlin with. I've had it pouring 100+ rounds into 'em only to watch the Spit or Pony fly off without engine damage, while one ping of a .50 cal knocks out my R-2800.
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Amen
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I've been flying Corsairs and Hellcats almost exclusively for 5 months now, and can offer the following:
KI's HATE speed. Parts fall off. Controls get unresponsive. If you have a hi-speed merge and no one else is around, I find dropping the gear and flaps sooner than later will help you get him in your sights much faster than he can get you in his because of this.
Acceleration in a KI is not bad, but diving, it can't touch the Corsairs. If I get one on my 6 and have the alt, I'll point the corsair low and speed up to 450+, and then start rolling to change directions, and then pull up. The KI can NOT roll well at these speeds, and may not be able to pull up either. (IF you make a lawn dart out of him, try to be nice on channel 200).
Anyway, once you've rolled out of plane with him and pull up, keep zoom climbing up. You'll wind up MUCH higher than he can zoom climb. Then its "game on." Go get him.
Also, the KI is not exactly a great guns platform. Large cowl and a low rate of fire make it fairly easy to miss a jinking plane. Gentle jinking while extending away works effectively - much more so than running away from spixteens.
-Llama
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Originally posted by Krusty
Meh, the spit16 is worse for high-end reasons. The Ki can beat most low and slow, but the spixteen can pull UFO moves in the vertical, climb almost 1000fpm more than the Ki, rolls like a 190, can dive with you, catch up to you in a dive, and...
I was zooming in at 500mph to the tail of a spit16. He was level, flying directly away. As I get to 700 he breaks up HARD, so hard I see him top-down planform as I blow past (I'd have had him if I wasn't in a K-4, stupid 30mm) he pulls this 6+ G completely vertical loop, comes around, and levels out, and CATCHES a 109K-4 doing 500+.
THAT is why the spit16 needs to be perked.
500 mph+ in a 109K4. A Spit 16 JUST TOOK OFF I watched him clear the ground from 10k, not wanting to be mean and vulch, and from what is now closer to 5k and 550mph+ I begin a climb, and the spit 16 which JUST TOOK OFF caught and killed me in that climb. THats BS. He caught that 5k alt. advantage like nothing, ignored the fact that I was over 300mph faster than him, and nailed me. To this day I dont know how he did it...
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<--thinks he can beat Reynolds 109 of any kind in a jug :)
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Originally posted by Reynolds
To this day I dont know how he did it...
Film it and you will know...
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Originally posted by
500 mph+ in a 109K4. A Spit 16 JUST TOOK OFF I watched him clear the ground from 10k, not wanting to be mean and vulch, and from what is now closer to 5k and 550mph+ I begin a climb, and the spit 16 which JUST TOOK OFF caught and killed me in that climb. THats BS. He caught that 5k alt. advantage like nothing, ignored the fact that I was over 300mph faster than him, and nailed me. To this day I dont know how he did it...
Dude was towing a 2S6 with the 30mm and SA-18s on it. But its got the Romulian Cloak technology.
But seriously, I feel yr pain. I fly 47's pretty much exclusively and generally against a 16 it turns into a 1 pass and haul bellybutton kinda deal. But that 1 pass generally does it. If he's got altitude, I try to stay innocious.
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Go easy on Reynolds, I've had that happen to me before as well. A spit16 rolls on a runway, and I fly by at LEAST 5k over him, doing 400+ mph, he pulls off the runway into a climb, I nose up and zoom up (with 5k already to start with) and what the frak do I see but a spit16 CLOSING on me from below, very fast. It's happened more than once. Usually they're too stupid to know what they're doing other than "point nose at enemy, spray", and I can still get away from them, but the fact that they have repeatedly done this is total BS.
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My favorite story is of a Spit I was diving on full power from about 5000ft above him. My airspeed is EASILY exceeding 450mph as I pull up (still above him into a zoom over his head to avoid the HO, as he had pulled up and was now climbing hard). My airspeed still reads ~450mph as I enter my zoom. I look back, and the guy is 600 out and CLOSING on me.
WTFH?! The only way he could have followed (I did NOT pull straight up full vertical, angle was less than 45 degree climb) was if he'd pulled into an Immelmann immediately after merge, which would have killed most of his E.
Even accepting the instant acceleration those things are capable of, I'm STILL over 400mph, and the Spixteen tops out around 350 LEVEL flight, much less in a climb.
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The Ki-84 is a much tougher nut to crack for a hog then a 16. The 16 is pretty easy to beat straight up in an angles fight. The Ki however is a different story. The real key is to avoid getting slow enough for the ki to deploy its flaps at the wrong time. The Ki is probably the only plane I run into that seems to totally outperform the hog at 80 mph but has good speed and acceleration. At very low speed the ki can just climb away or outturn the hog.
The real key to the ki is to keep it at arms length when possible until your positive E....then you need to fight the plane from above till you can go angles with some degree of success.
hog vs Ki-84 (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/Efightingthe%20Hog.ahf)
I also included a spit16 clip from over the weekend. I rarely lose a 1 on 1 with a spit 16 (spit 9 & 8 much tougher). This is a bit better in that the spitty doesnt make the mistake of going all angles but tries to E fight then convert. One of the better flown spit 16's I've run into....
Spit 16 (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/Efightingthe%20Hog.ahf)
No question at the end he was in a world of hurt and responding to other cons....but by then I was squarely on his 6 and you can see the hog has no problems staying with him.
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Actually, I find the Spit VIII a fairly easy kill as Spits go (the 14 being the easiest). Spit 16 and 9 are the toughest for me.
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Spit14 turned as well, and as easily, as a spitV by all pilot accounts. In AH it's the worst, most unstable spit at turning. I suppose it's only a compromise because it's such a monster. Flown properly it's nearly unbeatable.
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Originally posted by Saxman
Actually, I find the Spit VIII a fairly easy kill as Spits go (the 14 being the easiest). Spit 16 and 9 are the toughest for me.
I'm suprised at the difference between the 8 and 16 since on paper the 16 is slightly better. I'm 33/8 overall vs the 16 this tour. I know none have been in anything near a 1 on 1. I'm 5/4 vs spitIX and 2 have been straight up 1 on 1's where I got hammered. I'm 8/3 vs the spitVIII with none in a 1 on 1.
I think the 9 & 8 simply tend to be flown by a "better" grade of spit drivers then the 16....but then I'm T&Bing them. Different styles would yield different strengths and weakness's.....
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Originally posted by Krusty
Usually they're too stupid to know what they're doing other than "point nose at enemy, spray
I witnessed that tonight! While outrunning a Spit 16 I was still able to loop, roll, turn, and every other maneuver INSIDE him, while faster, in A g-14 with an oil leak. Someone else shot him before I did, but was fun being the better turner for once!
Oh and husky, you probably could. I am a VERY bad fighter pilot.
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the ki is easy to hunt and kill once you know its adv /disadv ... I sugest you fly it for a tour and learn it ...
now the spit 16 should be perked or the spit14 unperked ... the 16 imo has a faulty FM and does things that none of the other spits can do or recover from .
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Originally posted by humble
The Ki-84 is a much tougher nut to crack for a hog then a 16. The 16 is pretty easy to beat straight up in an angles fight. The Ki however is a different story. The real key is to avoid getting slow enough for the ki to deploy its flaps at the wrong time. The Ki is probably the only plane I run into that seems to totally outperform the hog at 80 mph but has good speed and acceleration. At very low speed the ki can just climb away or outturn the hog.
The real key to the ki is to keep it at arms length when possible until your positive E....then you need to fight the plane from above till you can go angles with some degree of success.
hog vs Ki-84 (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/Efightingthe%20Hog.ahf)
I also included a spit16 clip from over the weekend. I rarely lose a 1 on 1 with a spit 16 (spit 9 & 8 much tougher). This is a bit better in that the spitty doesnt make the mistake of going all angles but tries to E fight then convert. One of the better flown spit 16's I've run into....
Spit 16 (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/Efightingthe%20Hog.ahf)
No question at the end he was in a world of hurt and responding to other cons....but by then I was squarely on his 6 and you can see the hog has no problems staying with him.
Both links are to the same film - and i wanted to see the spit 16 film . . . .:cry
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Originally posted by Krusty
Spit14 turned as well, and as easily, as a spitV by all pilot accounts. In AH it's the worst, most unstable spit at turning. I suppose it's only a compromise because it's such a monster. Flown properly it's nearly unbeatable.
Where the heck did you read that Krusty? I've never seen that anywhere in all my years of Spit research.
14 was a much heavier beast and the pilots had to learn quickly it wasn't the turner that the Spit V or 9 was. It was much more of a B & Z bird. The 14 also climbed like a rocket according to pilots. It was their big advantage.
But it was not and should not ever turn like a Spit V. The IX shouldn't turn with a V either due to the weight difference.
Understand that one of the beefs of the Griffon Spits, starting with the XII was the need for constant trimming. It was more unstable.
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Originally posted by humble
I'm suprised at the difference between the 8 and 16 since on paper the 16 is slightly better. I'm 33/8 overall vs the 16 this tour. I know none have been in anything near a 1 on 1. I'm 5/4 vs spitIX and 2 have been straight up 1 on 1's where I got hammered. I'm 8/3 vs the spitVIII with none in a 1 on 1.
I think the 9 & 8 simply tend to be flown by a "better" grade of spit drivers then the 16....but then I'm T&Bing them. Different styles would yield different strengths and weakness's.....
Unless it's a real good stick in the XVI, you'll beat it in a VIII. The average XVI driver thinks it should turn with the VIII or IX, but with the clipped wing, it will stall first low and slow and boom it's down.
I still don't see what the fuss is with the XVI or the KI. I love going into a brawl with one in the old 38G
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Guppy from many many posts on these forums (no doubt you recall the debates) the spit14 made up for the weight with much much more raw power, which could haul it around in a turn better.
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Originally posted by SKJohn
Both links are to the same film - and i wanted to see the spit 16 film . . . .:cry
hog vs spit16 (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/1ahogvsspit16.ahf)
I probably have a dozen more lying around if you want em.....
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Originally posted by Krusty
Guppy from many many posts on these forums (no doubt you recall the debates) the spit14 made up for the weight with much much more raw power, which could haul it around in a turn better.
Your comment was 'by all pilot accounts." I wondered where you saw em Krusty, cause i really have never heard a Spit pilot, and I have known quite a few who flew 5s and XIVs, and none said the XIV could turn like the V. Would they have taken a V over an XIV? Not a chance cause the XIV was a monster, but it wasn't a turnfighter in the same sense the V was.
If an XIV makes the mistake of turning slow with a 5 obviously the 5 will not stall out as soon and the XIV would be in trouble. But the XIV drivers wouldn't play that game.
Kinda like whenever the 38L drivers try and out turn my 38G low and slow. They can't do it cause they're heavier. The good ones won't play into that game though :)
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Actually, I very specifically remember a war-time evaluation mentioning the Spit14 has the same turning circle as its predecessors... I'm not good with searching stuff, but I'll see if I can come up with that report in the forums.
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Turning Circle
18. The turning circles of both aircraft are identical. The Spitfire XIV appears to turn slightly better to port than it does to starbord. The warning of an approaching high speed stall is less pronounced in the case of the Spitfire Mk XIV.
http://www.fourthfightergroup.com/eagles/spit14afdu.html
Woops, turns out to be the AFDU report 117 on the Spit14 that states the Spit14 has the same circle as the Spit9... My bad.
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Guppy: My comment was a paraphrase of many other posts, combined with kweassa's remarks (and I remember reading something off these forums as well), but since he found the info that says spit9, I stand corrected.
I *thought* it was regarding the spit5. Oh well :(
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The Spit XIV would turn with a IX at some alt.
Anyway, KI's are Spitfood :D
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Angus, the only thing I fear when in a Ki is a horde or a gangbang of 3:1 numbers or more. When in it, I don't really fear much. Then again, the same goes for when I'm in a spit16.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Actually, I very specifically remember a war-time evaluation mentioning the Spit14 has the same turning circle as its predecessors... I'm not good with searching stuff, but I'll see if I can come up with that report in the forums.
I've read this report... But, it was merely commentary, no actual data was offered.
"Turning Circle
18. The turning circles of both aircraft are identical. The Spitfire XIV appears to turn slightly better to port than it does to starboard. The warning of an approaching high speed stall is less pronounced in the case of the Spitfire Mk XIV."
I have my doubts. While the two aircraft had nearly identical coefficients of lift, the Spitfire XIV was considerably heavier, IE: Higher wing loading. Those facts do not support the statement in the report. To compare the two directly, simply divide the different wing loadings by the coefficient of lift. That will give you a ballpark idea in terms of proportion. It would be nice to know if they actually measured turn radius or relied upon the pilot's perceptions.
My regards,
Widewing
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The Ki-84 and the Spitfire VIII in AH are almost equal in imo. I wonder if this can be said in real life Ki-84 vs Spitfire VIII match.
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Originally posted by 1K3
The Ki-84 and the Spitfire VIII in AH are almost equal in imo. I wonder if this can be said in real life Ki-84 vs Spitfire VIII match.
I don't know that the Spit VIIIs ran into Ki-84s. It was mostly Oscars and the Spit drivers were told early and often, don't turn with them.
Lessons had been hard won early in the war when the Hurri's and Spit Vs came to the Pacific and tried to rely on what in the ETO had been their superior turning ability. It didn't work against the Japanese birds.
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Somewhere I read about Clive Caldwell attacking a formation of Japanese aircraft from well below. In speed, climb and dive as well as high speed handling the Japanese planes could not touch his Spit VIII.
Another pilot, M.C."Bush" Cotton also comments on it as doing 420 mph and hitting 20K in 5 minutes. How does that rack up with the Ki84?
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Just from AH modeling, I'm of the mind that the Ki is superior. Once the speeds drop after merges, and what-not, the Ki has the upper hand with its turn capabilities. Especially when the speeds reach stall speed, because the spit might be uber, but the Ki is uber-UBER, in the nose-up-spiraling-climb aspect. Spit might be able to spiral climb, but the Ki can do it tighter and at a higher angle, and lower speeds, so all you have to do is get slow and the ki does a yo-yo on you and you're a goner.
Just my thoughts.
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http://gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php
I compared the Spit VIII and Ki-84 with gonzoville AH charts. The spit 8 and Ki 84 are almost equal in speed, acceleration, turn radius, and firepower. The spit 8 beats the Ki-84 in climbrate (spit has ~700 fpm advantage at WEP).
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Krusty, try the Spit VIII in spiralling climb. I love it when the XVI is on your tail and stalls out :D
In RL, AFAIK, nothing really caught a Spit in a spiralling climb.
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Originally posted by Kweassa
Woops, turns out to be the AFDU report 117 on the Spit14 that states the Spit14 has the same circle as the Spit9... My bad.
Not sure if anyone had noticed... but that site compares the XIV to a Tempest V... not a Spitfire Mk.V.
Additionally, the Spitfire 8 and 9 turned almost identically, but in the game, the 8 turns much better. HOWEVER, the Spit9 should be a little better in rolling, especially at low altitudes, while, in the game it seems to roll the same. Considering that the Mk.VIII in the game has shortened airlerons, it should roll a bit worse. If the 8 in the game had the extended wingtips, it would roll even worse. In all, the Mk.IX's maneuverability is underrated, and the Mk.VIII's speed is underrated. The only (or main) thing
which the Mk.IX lacks over the VIII is range - and even then, the Mk.IX's of late WWII had large rear-fuselage fuel tanks, giving them better internal fuel range than the Mk.VIII. The mk.VIII is also less likely to rip apart in high-G maneuvers since it's a little stronger, structurally. Its tailwheel makes it a little more aerodynamic too, but not hugely.
Also, the spit16 was essentially just a 9 with an American-built, Packard-Merlin 266 (the 2 in front of the 66 was added as an RAF measure to make sure no1 screwed up the maintenance since the American built-Merlin had slightly different tooling needed to fix it). The plane should perform almost identically to the Mk.IX, and climb rate should be slightly worse if anything, since the design is the same as the Mk.IX, yet with an ever-so-slightly higher wing loading. Its turning seems okay, however.
Climbing is a different story. http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit8tac.html (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit8tac.html)
According to the tests, the Mk.VIII should only drop under the mk.IX in climb under 10,000'. Above such altitudes, the Mk.VIII should be better in climb. Both with and w/out WEP, in the game, the 9's and 16's outclimb the 8 until at least 16,000' according to Gonzo's tests.
*Note* - not sure of the octane ratings of the a/c tests, but most other test factors are listed. Please enlighten me as to what I'm getting wrong here (probably a lot).
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Not sure if anyone had noticed... but that site compares the XIV to a Tempest V... not a Spitfire Mk.V.
err... actually, it compares it with the Spit9 when the turning circle is mentioned.
TACTICAL COMPARISON WITH SPITFIRE IX
13. The tactical differences are caused chiefly by the fact that the Spitfire XIV has an engine of greater capacity and is the heavier aircraft (weighing 8,400 lbs. against 7,480 lbs. of Spitfire IX).
Range & Endurance
14. The Spitfire XIV, without a long-range tank, carries 110 gallons of fuel and 9 gallons of oil. When handled similarily, the Spitfire XIV uses fuel at about 1 1/4 times the rate of the Spitfire IX. Its endurance is therefore slightly less. Owing to its higher speed for corresponding engine settings, its range is about equal. For the same reasons, extra fuel carried in a long-range tank keeps its range about equal to that of the Spitfire IX, its endurance being slightly less.
Speeds
15. At all heights the Spitfire XIV is 30-35 mph faster in level flight. The best performance heights are similar, being just below 15,000 and between 25,000 and 32,000 ft.
Climb
16. The Spitfire XIV has a slightly better maximum climb than the Spitfire IX, having the best maximum rate of climb yet seen at this Unit. In the zoom climb the Spitfire XIV gains slightly all the way, especially if full throttle is used in the climb.
Dive
17. The Spitfire XIV will pull away from the Spitfire IX in a dive.
Turning Circle
18. The turning circles of both aircraft are identical. The Spitfire XIV appears to turn slightly better to port than it does to starbord. The warning of an approaching high speed stall is less pronounced in the case of the Spitfire Mk XIV.
Rate of Roll
19. Rate of roll is very much the same.
Search View and Rear View
20. The search view from the pilot's cockpit is good; the longer nose of the aircraft interferes with the all-round visibility, which remains the same as that of the Spitfire IX. Rear View is similar.
Sighting View and Fire Power
21. The sighting view is slightly better being 4 deg (140 m.p.h.) as against 3 1/3 deg. The two bulges at the side cause little restriction. The firepower is identical with the Spitfire IX.
Armour
22. As for the Spitfire IX
Conclusions
23. The all-round performance of the Spitfire XIV is better than the Spitfire IX at all heights. In level flight it is 25-35 m.p.h. faster and has a correspondingly greater rate of climb. Its manoeuvrability is as good as a Spitfire IX. It is easy to fly but should be handled with care when taxying and taking off.
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Originally posted by SgtPappy
Not sure if anyone had noticed... but that site compares the XIV to a Tempest V... not a Spitfire Mk.V.
Additionally, the Spitfire 8 and 9 turned almost identically, but in the game, the 8 turns much better. HOWEVER, the Spit9 should be a little better in rolling, especially at low altitudes, while, in the game it seems to roll the same. Considering that the Mk.VIII in the game has shortened airlerons, it should roll a bit worse. If the 8 in the game had the extended wingtips, it would roll even worse. In all, the Mk.IX's maneuverability is underrated, and the Mk.VIII's speed is underrated. The only (or main) thing
which the Mk.IX lacks over the VIII is range - and even then, the Mk.IX's of late WWII had large rear-fuselage fuel tanks, giving them better internal fuel range than the Mk.VIII. The mk.VIII is also less likely to rip apart in high-G maneuvers since it's a little stronger, structurally. Its tailwheel makes it a little more aerodynamic too, but not hugely.
Also, the spit16 was essentially just a 9 with an American-built, Packard-Merlin 266 (the 2 in front of the 66 was added as an RAF measure to make sure no1 screwed up the maintenance since the American built-Merlin had slightly different tooling needed to fix it). The plane should perform almost identically to the Mk.IX, and climb rate should be slightly worse if anything, since the design is the same as the Mk.IX, yet with an ever-so-slightly higher wing loading. Its turning seems okay, however.
Climbing is a different story. http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit8tac.html (http://www.spitfireperformance.com/spit8tac.html)
According to the tests, the Mk.VIII should only drop under the mk.IX in climb under 10,000'. Above such altitudes, the Mk.VIII should be better in climb. Both with and w/out WEP, in the game, the 9's and 16's outclimb the 8 until at least 16,000' according to Gonzo's tests.
*Note* - not sure of the octane ratings of the a/c tests, but most other test factors are listed. Please enlighten me as to what I'm getting wrong here (probably a lot).
Regarding the 8 and 9 test. Both had Merlin 63s. The Spit IX in AH is an FIX with a Merlin 61 while the VIII is an LFVIII with a Merlin 66.
In the test the VIII had the extended high alt wings of the very early VIIIs and the VII. It also was carrying more internal fuel then the IX. And the VIII was a heavier bird to begin with.
In AH the VIII with 50 fuel is carrying more then both the IX or XVI. I think if you had them at the same fuel load internally it would be different on the climb. And again of the three 2 stage Merlin Spits in AH the VIII is the heavier of the three.
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Originally posted by humble
hog vs spit16 (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/1ahogvsspit16.ahf)
I probably have a dozen more lying around if you want em.....
Thanks Humble!
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I don't include spit16 when I'm talking about spits...this thing is a flying game exploit, its turn rate should be porked to me, especially over 15k high as the wingtips are here for some reason aren't they ?
the spit8 does not turn better compared to a spit9, it got a retractible tailwheel that adds some weight on the tail and is heavier in general (wing tanks etc). If you use the spit8 like a turning plane you got it wrong IMO, and wont survive. I'm a dedicated spit pilot when uping as fighter (check my kill stats) and the spit8 is what I choose when I need bnz capabilities, using its turn is the last resort when some pure bnz plane catch me. As for the spit9 it bleeds E like mad, but as some magical feeling in turns and some outrageous low speed climb rate.
Many people say that spits (not the 16) are for noobs, but I don't think so. Flying with a mix of turns and speed is not that easy, as in turns hurris&co will tear you in pieces , and in speed P51&co will nail you. Not to mention its paper wings that fall with a few pings. Flyin spits requires some serious SA, and great knowledge of all planes capabilities, because you don't have any feat that gives you a sure advantage over all the other planes.
As for the KI84 when I fly spits I simply try to run from them or kill them fast. Spit8 will loose in a low speed turnfight but it has some advantage in dive, the spit9 will be equal on turns but can't outrun the Ki84. Only option is to be lucky that the pilot is not Wilbuz and try to win in a turnfight, or use your situation to end the fight right away, or just dive away.
Ki84 is THE turnfighter hunter. F4U's better not get caught slow on the deck :)
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Spit VIII is also a turnfighter hunter. (Take a slipper tank and max 50% fuel)
Seafire is a turnfighter hunter
Hurricane is a turnfighter hunter
Zeke is a turnfighter hunter, - lol, if you find a gaggle of turnfighters....
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Zekes! Ha ha, those little guys always make me laugh. I call them "crunchies." The other day someone was asking me to ban the Zekes. I told him that Zekes are easy kills, but he kept insisting that they were the most deadly airplane in the game. Finally, I told him to take up a Zeke and I'd show him why they're junk. I was flying my P-38, of course, and you can guess the outcome. He stopped saying that the Zekes are the best!
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Originally posted by Kweassa
err... actually, it compares it with the Spit9 when the turning circle is mentioned.
Ha... I'm just going to huddle i my little corner now.
Anyway, Guppy... it has a Merlin 61, huh? Wow I should have considered that possibility. That makes so much more sense as to why it performs smellier...
Noir... according to the test of Gonzo, the Spit9 turns worse. Did they fix that in the most recent major patch? If so, I may fly it. However, next to the Hayate, the Hogs (especially the 4-Hog) seem to be uber dangerous enemies for me - mostly because of their turning with flaps. I believe their was a discussion, but how are these flaps making outturn the Spits?
The only thing I can think of is the 'inverted gullness'... but many say that's a bad assumption. Even good ol' Saxman stated that the F4U's flaps help it turna little TOO well. Wing loading was in favor of the Spitfire and I still need to know how the other factors stack up. I believe someone in another thread stated that he was told by an F4U pilot that a good Hog pilot could outturn Spits. However, it is known that some P-38 pilots said that they'd outturn Zekes... heck, even Saburo Sakai said that according to www.p-38online.com (http://www.p-38online.com) , yet we all know that THAT wasn't very likely. I'll continue on my research to see what I can find.
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Originally posted by Angus
Spit VIII is also a turnfighter hunter. (Take a slipper tank and max 50% fuel)
Seafire is a turnfighter hunter
Hurricane is a turnfighter hunter
Zeke is a turnfighter hunter, - lol, if you find a gaggle of turnfighters....
lol I meant by turnfighter hunter something that turns good but is way faster that zeke and hurri, sorry it was stupid :)
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Lol, well, I grabbed it ;)
And sgt Pappy, - how do the turncircles come out at very high alt? The VIII has more power at SL I belive. And does our Spit VIII have the longer wingtips or normal?
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Just to clarify, I meant "TOO well" as in, on more than one occasion even with only one notch of flaps I've over shot my target and missed. I have no idea how this compares to real life.
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Originally posted by Angus
Lol, well, I grabbed it ;)
And sgt Pappy, - how do the turncircles come out at very high alt? The VIII has more power at SL I belive. And does our Spit VIII have the longer wingtips or normal?
Our spit8 got standard mid alt wingtips, like most spits we have. Some spits were fitted with extended wingtips for high alt operation (we don't have any) and some had cut wingtips like the spit16 for low alt. If you run a search on forum you should find a detailled description that Kev posted not long ago.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
I don't know that the Spit VIIIs ran into Ki-84s.
Shores ("Air War For Burma") mentions a few occations where Ki-84's (50. Sentai) met Spits VIII's and p-38's.
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Thanks, all... I'll continue my research. So far I've found no info on a Hog's turning with flaps.
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Originally posted by llama
Also, the KI is not exactly a great guns platform. Large cowl and a low rate of fire make it fairly easy to miss a jinking plane. Gentle jinking while extending away works effectively - much more so than running away from spixteens.
-Llama
Are you sure about that low rate of fire?
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Originally posted by Slash27
Are you sure about that low rate of fire?
Highest rate of fire of any cannon in the game.
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Originally posted by Karnak
Highest rate of fire of any cannon in the game.
Yup. Too fast in some respects because unlike with a slow ROF gun like in the Niki, you can go spraying all over the place with the Ki84, if you do you'll be out of ammo in a blink of an eye. On the plus side, that high rate of fire makes brief passing snapshots highly successful.