Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: vatiAH on August 27, 2001, 09:19:00 AM
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Hello all ,
I had a strange thing happen to me last night and i'm wondering if maybe I have been missing an opertunity in reguard to buff attacks.
Last night I was flying around the A9 - A52 area in a P-51D. I was cruising at about 20k when I saw 2 dar contacts off to my north. As I moved in closer I found 2 B-26's flying at about 13k alt in trail formation with roughly 4k seperation. I was closeing on the first one in line from roughly his 4 O'clock postion. As I closed he started shooting forcing me to break off my attack run. I Pushed over and dove under the bomber and then levled out about 1k below him. I used all that built up E to get head and above the Buffs. At about 2.7k I turned and went back at them. I was coming at the first one in the classic 12:00 high attack. I opened fire at about 800 yards and watched my .50's hit from the nose to the top turret. The B-26 blew up just as I passed by him.!! OK, I must have gotten the pilot. A 1 pass kill on buff is fairly rare, but it can happen. Now I'm heading for the 2nd one at a very high rate of speed. My pass on the first one took me slightly below the flight path of the 2nd bomber. Now i'm closing on the 2nd B-26 from about 12:00 low. I'm closing very fast so I pull up into him and at about 600 yards I let fly with the .50's. The bullets hit the centerline from about the Bombbay to the tail. As I roll away from the attack, the 2nd B-26 blows up!! What are the chances of killing 2 B-26's with 1 pass on each with very short bursts from a P-51?
Normaly I try for hits along the wing roots in order to knock off a wing. The closure rate on these attacks were so high I was lucky enough to even get the shots off much less aim them properly. IS a centerline of the buff the better target? Or, was my 1 pass kills more a luck thing?
What do you all aim at when attacking Buffs?
Vati66
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"What do you all aim at when attacking Buffs?"
Just what you did :) and if a good cokcpit area shot is not attainable then I try for the tail. Especially for the Lanc and B-26.
Westy
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<S> vati
welcome to the wonderfull world of buff busting :)
the method you described is IMO just about the best way to attack a buff. sure, it's a harder shot for the fighter, but it works both ways( harder for the gunner as well ).and by the time you've made your pass and the gunner has switch to his new gun possition, you're already 1.0-1.5 away depending on your speed.
i prefer a 1 or 11 o'clock high attack myself, as it gives the gunner a very difficult shot( the fighter is moving across his path, diving, and heading towards him all at the same time ). the only guy that has been consistantly been able to hit me with this attack profile has been GTR, and i don't think he flies buffs all that often.every other buff has only been lucky enough to get a ping or too.
and yep, all of this is done in the p-51 :)
on a side note...
whenever i fly a buff and i see a fighter actually take the time to set up his pass like that, I know i'm pretty much screwed unless he gets impatient and finally goes for the 6 shot.
[edit]
where do i aim?
b-17- cockpit
lanc- cockpit
b-26- cockpit or engines(b-26's have the 1 ping engine dead bug too)
[/edit]
[ 08-27-2001: Message edited by: pugg666 ]
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Usually easiest way to get them is pilot, then tail, then wings. Concentrated hit is better than walking, but it requires you to keep same direction for a longer time, so easier for buff gunner to shot you down.
I read recetly from one of LW pilots memories that "buffs dropped bombs when we aproached, because having them aboard while we attacked was a clear suicide". Makes me wonder if hitting bombs with cannon shell could make them detonate. Anyway, according to my experience it is not modeled in AH.
Fariz
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Nah its nothing spectacular. Whenever I fly 50cal planes in AH the buffs die easy. Curious why that is, considering everyone agreed during the course of WW2 and after that HE firing cannon were far superior vs bombers than 50cal slugs. Oh well enjoy. :)
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I forgot to add. I fly the Yak. Which doesn't have .50's :) So I have to get close. REAL close, before pulling the trigger. 100-150 on average. Yak-9U I had a good run with with two lancs, one b26 and one Spit. Yak-9T with it's 37mm is a monster against buffs. But one would be lucky to take down three buffs in one flight with the small ammop load. Best to dat against bombers (besides vulching) is two lans with an assist on a 3rd.
Again, the key (for me anyway) is to open fire point blank.
Westy
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Once I killed a B-17 with 25 rounds from La-7. I dived from high 2 o'clock and short burst to cockpit blow that bomber to pieces.
I was more than surprised :D
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<S> Vati good work!
Here's my preferred attack profile for bombers. Hi diving attack from 1200, short pullout and quickly pulling the nose onto target to rake nose to tail. But getting B26's that way is a little harder since the closure speed is higher I find B26's a bit harder to kill. It's just a ROF/# of weapons available thing for the dora. Getting 2 B26's to explode like that is fantastic!
mauser
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I never attack B17s from anything remotely approaching the 12 OC position. For B17s I generally attempt to set my run up so I am flying parallel to the bomber, then dive in perpendicular and come back up on the other side. Generally I aim for the wing root, although I usually end up walking the hits from the nose to the tail. In the 190A8, this works very well, since the 2x30mm will pretty much take a wing off on one pass. It doesn't work so well in the Dora, it lacks the firepower to do it.
Against Lancs I usually do the same thing, although I will go HO with a Lanc. I usually attempt to dive below the Lanc so that I can pull through the merge and fire along the underside of the fuselage. That usually works well, even in the Dora.
Against B26s I either go for my typical B17 pass (but lower, since the 26 has no ball turret), or I do the above pass as if it were a Lanc.
In a Dora it almost always takes 5 or 6 passes to bring down a B17 using the side approach. B26s are usually good for 2 or 3 passes, and I've gotten all sorts of different results against Lancs (From them blowing up in one pass to taking eight or more runs).
Lastly, I like to intercept bombers as they are approaching their target. You can come in from the rear without much danger, as they are looking through the scope, and not out around the plane. I almost always can kill a bomber in one pass if I manage to catch him on the bomb run.
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Nah its nothing spectacular. Whenever I fly 50cal planes in AH the buffs die easy. Curious why that is, considering everyone agreed during the course of WW2 and after that HE firing cannon were far superior vs bombers than 50cal slugs. Oh well enjoy.
i've noticed the opposite GRUN. as a matter of fact i had a 3 lanc kill sortie in a 109 g-10.even though they are low velocity, i find that the mg151/20's are far more effective against buffs than the .50's...
2 of the 3 lancs were killed in the first pass. the one that took 2 passes was because i misjudged my closure, i was firing in front of the buff at first, and by the time i corrected my aim i only saw about 2 or 3 hit flashes.
BTW, my loadout was 20mm plus gondolas.and i was only firing the 20's, no mg's used at all
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I guess the reason I asked what everyone aims at is because I rarely go for the Cockpit. Normaly I approach from the 10 :00 or 2:00 and go for the wings. I was under the imprestion that getting a pilot kill was pretty much blind luck since most guys won't be sitting in the cockpit , but will be manning a gun postion. I have had pretty good success with these tactics being 26 to 7 against buffs, but man, if wacking them with one pass is comman with a Cockpit shot then I know were i'm aiming for now on!!
BTW the 2nd kill was not a hit to the cockpit. I ran the hits right down the centerline of the bottom of the B-26 from about the Bomb bay back to the tail. IS it possible to explode the bombs?
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I like buffing in the B26, P51D for some reason is the one plane that kills me quick.
Sax
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I prefer to be attacked head-on when flying the B-26. I just point the nose of the aircraft at you and fire. No need to jump into the nosegun position.
-Puke
332nd Flying Mongrels
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CC puke- but if the guy dives before making his HO run you have to dive as well. Once your B26 gets to around 300 mph, the nose will start to pull up, and you won't be able to dive anymore.
On a totally unrelated note, I made a 12 OC hi run on a b17 today in a 190A8- I got him to, which surprised me. I started out about level with him, but I had just ended a shallow dive so I was going about 350 mph. I lined him up from 6k out, pulled into a climb that left me maybe 2000 feet above him, rolled inverted and watched him get closer. At 1.5K I pulled back on the stick and dove towards him. I was pretty much spraying, not aiming at any particular place, but I ended up blowing a wingtip off and he spiraled in.
He didn't hit me with any of his fire, so maybe that isn't a bad approach either.
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For me I think the issue wityh 50cals is aim. I can open fire at 700-800 yards and score consistent hits to wing all the way until I pull out at 200-300 yards. This makes them very effective.= vs buffs. In RL it was always said 500yards max range to reasonably hit with 50cals, AH has it a bit better so you can open fire at longer ranges and score concentrated hits.
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Seems like an excellent intercept to me buddy :)
veeeery nice indeed.
I mostly aim for the wings.
Also, i try to pass the bomber overhead, then roll over, dive down and attack in a steep 12 o clock attack.
This gives the gunner in the buff less chance and time to aim.
While you have better view of the situation.
But then again, attacking a b26 or a b17 is some difference of course.
Attacking a b26 from below is safe, but most b26 pilots know this and start doing evasives as soon as you are in range under their belly.
later,
JG5FaBi.
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"Attacking a b26 from below is safe, but most b26 pilots know this and start doing evasives as soon as you are in range under their belly."
When a bomber "pilot" is on, or close to, his bomb run sometimes this is as good as actually shooting him down. If you make them do multiple passes he also gets set up for multiple attacks by yourself or other friendlies.
Westy
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yep GRUN.aim. that's exactly why i don't use the mgs when i'm flying a 109 against buffs.it actually makes it harder to shoot the buff down, because the mg's are hitting when the cannon rounds are dropping below target.
i usually start firing at about 6-500 yards with cannons and at about 9-800 with .50's. it works for me anyways.K/D vs. buffs for the last 3 tours
19...10/1
18...23/8
17...27/6