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General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Kweassa on December 12, 2006, 05:28:15 PM

Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Kweassa on December 12, 2006, 05:28:15 PM
A very recent idea for me. I'm not sure if anyone has come up with this one.


 I remember some people have suggested in the past that the "money" concept of the game should be applied to AH as well, ie. every plane should be perked, and people should pay and "buy" each plane every time they up.

 Now, the reasoning behind that suggestion was pretty obvious. It was a way to bring in some of the "fear factor" into the game so people don't fly their planes wrecklessly. I think it was an idea to stop the "gaming-the-game". Every lost plane, every death should have some kind of negative impact so the endless flow of respawning planes cannot be treated as a viable 'tactic'.

 For example, imagine a well concealed vehicle in the woods, being attacked by a largely incompetent attack pilot. Now this guy can't hit the broad side of the barn with his ordnance. He's never practiced bombing or strafing, and all he does is up a plane, dump bombs, strafe dangerously, crash into the woods, and reup, repeat ad nauseaum until some lucky drop finally lands near the vehicle and destroys it. The GV driver has taken a long time to drive and position himself carefully. He took the precautions, but one thing he couldn't beat was the limitless supply of planes and bombs. Nothing beats infinite resourcers.
 
 Now, this idea was immensely unpopular. There were cons, and large ones too. If perks were required for every plane, only the best of pilots would ever be able to up the better planes. The hopeless will become more hopeless, the timid will become more timid.


 ....


 My idea is this:

Quote
1. What if all the planes had a price?

2. What if, the perk modifiers that effect the amount of perks earned, is applied on an individual basis rather than global? Specifically, what if the amount of perks earned, and the amount of perks required to "purchase" a certain plane, was modified by the statistics concerning his prowess as a fighter/bomber/GV  pilot/driver?



 The current formula for perks are:

1. plane perk cost = (plane cost) x (perk bonus)
2. perk points earned = (perks per kill) x (1 / (perk bonus))
3. perk bonus = 1 /  (((country players) / (total players)) x 3)^2
4. perks per kill =  (my ENY) / (target ENY)


 Now, to make the math simple, let's assume #3 perk bonus = 1. All countries have totally equal numbers. Therefore,

1. plane perk cost = plane cost
2. perk points earned = perks per kill
4. perks per kill = (my ENY) / (target ENY)




 Let's assume that I, "kweassa", am flying a La-7 with a ENY of (let's say) 5. I meet the enemy pilot, "badguy", who is flying a P-51D with a ENY of (let's say) 10.


* Now, under the current rules, if kweassa shoots badguy down he earns;

 5/10 = 0.5 perks

* If the other way around, badguy earns;

 10/5 = 2 perks



 As stated in idea #1, all planes now have a price. The La-7, a versatile late-war plane costs 2 perks, The P-51D, little lacking in pure engine power and speed, costs a little less price of 1 perks.

 It appears "badguy" is a much better pilot than "kweassa", and for every 10 bouts kweassa loses 8, and wins only 2. badguy, on the other hand, wins 8 and loses only 2 per average. Let's assume this tendency applies exactly to both kweassa and badguy when they meet and fight each other.

 kweassa will lose 8 fights and win only 2, vice versa for badguy. Therefore, kweassa earns 1 perks(2 victories in La-7 against P-51), and loses 16 perks(8 losses in La-7 against P-51). badguy earns 16 perks and loses only 1. Thus, the sucky pilot kweassa is severely penalized, as his balance is now -15, while badguy, a superior pilot is +15.

 Clearly, this system will benefit only the better pilot.

 ...

 However, there's a second premise. The calculations are now also influenced by the K/D ratio. (I've forgotten the formula, so here I'll assume that the K/D is  {kills / (deaths +1)}  )

* badguy is a superior pilot, with 8 kills, two deaths, K/D of 2.66.
* kweassa is a sucky pilot, with 2 kills, 8 deaths, K/D of 0.22.




 Now, what if the calculation was like this?

1. plane perk cost = plane cost x (K/D)
2. perk points earned = perks perkill
4. perks per kill = (my ENY) / (target ENY)
5. ENY = (original ENY) / (K/D)



* For kweassa, the sucky pilot, his K/D is merely 0.22 average. Therefore, the La-7 he uses, normally costing 2 perks, is only 0.44 points for him.

* On the other hand, badguy, the superior pilot, has a 2.66 K/D. For him, the P-51D, normally costing only 1 perks, is 2.66 points to purchase.

* For kweassa, his La-7, originally with an ENY of 5, is modified to 22.7, because he sucks.

* For badguy, his P-51D, originally with an ENY of 10, is now 3.75, because he is a superior pilot.


 Therefore, when kweassa and badguy duke it out 10 fights, kweassa losing 8, winning 2, the results would be very different now.

* perks kweassa earned for shooting down badguy
   = 22.7/3.75 = 6.05

* perks badguy earned for shooting down kweassa
   = 3.75/22.7 = 0.16

* total perks kweassa earned
   = 6.05 x 2 victories = 12.1

* total perks kweassa lost
   = 0.44 (La-7 cost) x 8 losses = 3.52

* total perks badguy earned
   = 0.16 x 8 victories = 1.28

* total perks badguy lost
   = 2.66 (P-51D cost) x 2 losses = 5.32

 ...


 The end result:  the vastly sucky kweassa, despite a much suckier skill, can "purchase" aircraft at a cheaper cost because he is sucky. Is hit less by losing planes, and earns more when he shoots down. On the other hand, the superior pilot badguy, is hit harder in perks by each defeat, costs more perks to buy planes than kweassa, and earns a lot less because he is much superior.

 Now, I'm not saying the above formula is good. It's just a loose example. What I'm saying is, what if the K/D ratio effected most (if not all) of the categories in calculating perk costs: ENY, plane price, perks earned, etc etc..

 ...


 This is my explanation:


 First, slap a price on everything the user can select in the game according to its performance/era, and let the pilots spend their perks each time they up a plane, arm it with extra guns, equip bombs, DTs, etc etc. Having to spend money to up a plane with more options, will act as a bit of a limiting factor in how the planes are treated.

 For instance, unless a certain player is very perk rich, he wouldn't just mandatorily slap on DTs with less than 100% internal fuel. When he selects a certain plane, and equips it with a DT, he will pay for the plane itself, and the extra cost required to afford the DTs. Thus, wasting DTs is spending money unwisely, and therefore people will refrain from using DTs unless they have to.

 Likewise, when someone ups an IL-2 to attack a ground vehicle, each time he loses a plane that is armed with rockets and bombs, he will be losing the perk price required to by the IL2 + perks for rockets + perks for bombs. He'd think twice before just going kamikaze against every GV he sees.
 
 Overall, people will be spending a heckuva lot of perks than before. Everything comes with a price, so wise flying literally pays. The reason to slapping a price on every piece of ordnance, every ride in the game, is simple. It is to make the people conscious about the amount of "money" they earn. When they get the feeling that they will be losing money if they die, they will fly more carefully.

 However, if that continues, the skill-less pilots would become quickly bankrupt, while the skilled become endlessly rich, accumulating incredible amounts of perks. That is why the K/D is applied to each part of the equation. The sucky pilots will have it easier to earn a lot more perks than the super duper pilots.

 As you can see in the above calculations, having a 0.22 K/D and losing 8 of 10 battles in a La-7 still earned him about 9 perks. On the other hand. badguy won 8 out of 10 fights but he still lost about 4 perks.

 This second part of the idea, to incorporate the K/D factor into perk-related formulas, is a sort of a "handicap" system. Suckier pilots will be able to earn perks a lot more easily, and will be able to buy planes at cheap prices. However, the better the pilot becomes, it will be much more difficult to earn perks, and even the same planes would cost a lot more than when the sucky pilot was "purchasing" them. In other words, the better the pilot, the more price he has to pay.

 
 
 ...


 I'm not sure how much this makes sense, but I'm thinking it could be worth a shot.
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Debonair on December 12, 2006, 06:19:03 PM
thats too long for me to keep concentration long enough to understand, how about this:
if u shoot down a plane, u get a picture of a naked lady on the screen.
if its a jet or an La-7 shes pretty
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: xREAPERx on December 12, 2006, 06:25:04 PM
sounds good den
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: xREAPERx on December 12, 2006, 06:25:39 PM
deb
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Kweassa on December 13, 2006, 10:18:41 AM
Quote
thats too long for me to keep concentration long enough to understand


 Okaaay...

 The super-duper shortened version:


1. perk all planes, vehicles, and ordnance at different "prices" according to their performance and era

2. however, if all planes are perked and no quarter is given to the n00bs, only the vets will be super rich and be able to fly whatever they want

3. so, add in the K/D as an equalizer, so the n00b with pitiful K/D can earn more perks and "buy" planes and equipment at a lower price. For the vets with superior K/D they will earn less perks and buy planes at higher prices.

4. Knowing that none of what they can use is "free" will deterr the suckier pilots from wreckless flying, and motivate them into becoming better pilots, or use less-performing planes more regularly. (Since, a sucky K/D combined with high ENY plane will bring in heaps of perk points)
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Tilt on December 13, 2006, 10:57:51 AM
You mean you use the K/D ratio as a method of introducing a handycap such that more "carefull" or more "skillfull" players earn less perks per kill?
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: EagleDNY on December 13, 2006, 11:44:10 AM
I see where you are going - I like the idea somewhat, but I think you might be overcomplicating it a bit.  Also - I see what you mean about giving the noobs a break, but I'm not sure penalizing someone for getting better is the best way to do it.  I'm also not totally convinced that K/D is the ratio you are looking for - simply because of all the vulching, suiciding, and drone-killing that adds into it.

I like the idea of having to pay some perkies for the top rides (planes and vehicles).  Ord I think you include in the perkie price of the ride for simplicity.  

To give noobs a break, you could cut the perkie price of any ride to 0 for the first sorties that a noob flies, and then slowly ramp it up to full price between and sorties, during which time the noob has to graduate from hapless to reasonably competent.  

For veterans (over sorties), I also think that you should have to land, ditch or bail in friendly territory to earn any perkies back.  Getting killed or captured in enemy territory should cost you the cost of the plane you upped, as well as any perkies you would've earned for kills.  If you land it back home, you get full credit, and if you ditch or bail in friendly territory you get a percentage.

Ride costs multiply with the horde factor (as they do now), but we can probably do without ENY limits this way.  

It'd be an interesting change - I'd try it.

EagleDNY
$.02
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: skycaptn on December 13, 2006, 04:23:40 PM
I like the naked lady idea.
I bet betty would hate it though.
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Spatula on December 13, 2006, 04:23:55 PM
I like the modifier idea in concept, if say in your above example "badguy" with a 2.2 K/D looses 4 perks for loosing 2 out of 10 engagements, and the "kwessa" pilot gains 9 for loosing 8 of 10, then why on earth would anyone want to try get a "good" Kill/Death ratio? Its severely penalising. And yet it would seem from the example given, the system rewards those who have low Kills/Death - eg either n00bs or those who constantly up-and-die-repeat-furballers. From the examples it looks like it encourages people to keep their K/D ratio low - eg not be 'carefull' or 'skilled' just gung-ho and die.

I do like the concept of each plane costing perks, and perhaps have some formula to moderate it so that newbies get a relatively fair deal. But im not sure K/D is the way to go? Also do newbies get given perks when they start as a 'nest-egg'? or what happens when someone has zero perks?
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Major Biggles on December 13, 2006, 04:34:54 PM
so basically, you want everyone to become timid and boring? no thanks, this is a combat sim, people should not be punished for fighting.
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: BaldEagl on December 13, 2006, 04:54:05 PM
Quote
Originally posted by EagleDNY
For veterans (over sorties), I also think that you should have to land, ditch or bail in friendly territory to earn any perkies back.  Getting killed or captured in enemy territory should cost you the cost of the plane you upped, as well as any perkies you would've earned for kills.  If you land it back home, you get full credit, and if you ditch or bail in friendly territory you get a percentage.


Then you're going to get people staying home defending instead of going out attacking and we already have a problem with that.  Conversly, no one is going to "go it alone" to try to keep an enemy from upping at a particular base.

As to K/D, as I've said in other threads, I think K/S is a better indicator of skill but even that can be wildly influenced with a few vulching runs.

It's not a bad idea but I just don't really see how to make it fly (pun intended).
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: CAV on December 13, 2006, 06:20:05 PM
Quote
so basically, you want everyone to become timid and boring? no thanks, this is a combat sim, people should not be punished for fighting.


I like it....

He is not punishing you for fighting.... just fighting badly.

Guy's who never take their rides home from the fight, that would be a "bad thing". Like you said... it is a combat sim. Living to fight again Good.... Getting killed repeatly and never landing your missions "Bad".

Cavalry
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Major Biggles on December 13, 2006, 06:50:08 PM
Quote
Originally posted by CAV
I like it....

He is not punishing you for fighting.... just fighting badly.

Guy's who never take their rides home from the fight, that would be a "bad thing". Like you said... it is a combat sim. Living to fight again Good.... Getting killed repeatly and never landing your missions "Bad".

Cavalry



i like diving into a furball with suicide odds. am i going to die, yes, but am i going to have fun doing it, hell yeah :) perk system is fine as it is
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Kweassa on December 14, 2006, 12:44:40 AM
Quote
I like the modifier idea in concept, if say in your above example "badguy" with a 2.2 K/D looses 4 perks for loosing 2 out of 10 engagements, and the "kwessa" pilot gains 9 for loosing 8 of 10, then why on earth would anyone want to try get a "good" Kill/Death ratio? Its severely penalising. And yet it would seem from the example given, the system rewards those who have low Kills/Death - eg either n00bs or those who constantly up-and-die-repeat-furballers. From the examples it looks like it encourages people to keep their K/D ratio low - eg not be 'carefull' or 'skilled' just gung-ho and die.


 Well that's the ingenious part!!

 Like you said, in the example, "kweassa" is a sucky pilot and despite being sucky and using a highly expensive, high performance plane, he can easily reclaim any perks he lose (actually, earn more than he loses).

 This means, despite having to buy and purchase stuff the game system is essentially unchanged from what it was before, for the really sucky pilots. So what if everything, every ordnance is perked? They still earn enough perks even with a superbly sucky 0.22 K/D, so they can fly whatever they want.

 Therefore, for the sucky guys, they play a game which isn't all that different from the current MA, except whatever reasons that might make them more timid is purely psychological.

 However, the point when they reach the climactic 1.0 K/D, everything changes. The game suddenly becomes more challenging since the price factor for the planes are normalized. So, for the more experienced pilots, it indeed does become a "penalty", or rather a handicap, to make the game more challenging. Every plane, every equipment has a price to pay (as compared to the sucky pilots where price has almost no meaning).
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Kweassa on December 14, 2006, 12:56:00 AM
Quote
so basically, you want everyone to become timid and boring? no thanks, this is a combat sim, people should not be punished for fighting.

 ...

I like diving into a furball with suicide odds. am i going to die, yes, but am i going to have fun doing it, hell yeah  perk system is fine as it is



 Haha, think of it as this way Major.

 Under my system, if you do that a lot, your K/D will drop a lot, too! That means the prices of the planes will drop for you, and at the same time the perks you earn for each kill are greatly enhanced. So if you like suicidal fighting, and the only thing deterring from you from doing that in my perk idea, will be one's own pride.

 On the other hand, if the pilot really does become timid, his K/D will rise. The more timid and careful he is, suddenly the costs of being a good pilot will start mounting. Each planes will be much more expensive, each death will be more costly.... and ultimately, the perks he earn will also drop down a lot. It's not like he can up a mid-war plane and go shoot down 3~4 La-7s and he will earn 30 perks. If the K/D rises to high levels, even being in a mid-war plane will not be able to earn enough perks than he loses. The only way for the vet with high K/D to not go bankrupt, is to be not timid - fight a lot of planes, shoot a lot of them down, and still not die.

 Therefore, it actually penalizes someone for having a good K/D. It's a sort of a challenge. You can remain a sucky pilot and cannon-fodder for the vets and have no worries about any of the perk prices, or you can take up the challenge and start becoming a better piot.. then your K/D rises, then the costs start escalating as well.
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: BaldEagl on December 14, 2006, 09:53:46 AM
Quote
Originally posted by Major Biggles
i like diving into a furball with suicide odds. am i going to die, yes, but am i going to have fun doing it, hell yeah :) perk system is fine as it is


I like doing that to.  If I die with 1-2 kills I feel great about it.  3 or more I'm king of the world.  Die instantly, well, that's what happens.  Get out alive?  Awsome.  K/D is a bad measure.  Like I keep saying, K/S is much more valid.

If you fly 50 flights, get 2 kills and land 50 your K/D is 2.  Your K/S is 0.04
If you fly 50 flights, get 50 kills and land 0 your K/D is 0.98.  Your K/S is 1.0

By your logic the first player is the "more skilled".  I highly disagree.  Tell me honestly that youd rather be the first guy in this scenario than the latter.
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: EzzyDuzIt on December 14, 2006, 11:50:45 PM
If everything will cost a varied amount of perks, then what happens when someone runs out of perks
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Tilt on December 15, 2006, 03:37:13 AM
I think the problem here is that if someone is ready to abuse this for max perk points he simply crashes the odd plane into a hanger or shoots at friendly on the runway.
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: EagleDNY on December 17, 2006, 03:50:54 PM
Quote
Originally posted by BaldEagl
Then you're going to get people staying home defending instead of going out attacking and we already have a problem with that.  Conversly, no one is going to "go it alone" to try to keep an enemy from upping at a particular base.

As to K/D, as I've said in other threads, I think K/S is a better indicator of skill but even that can be wildly influenced with a few vulching runs.

It's not a bad idea but I just don't really see how to make it fly (pun intended).


You might be right that some timid individuals might not want to bet a few perkies that they can make it back.  Perhaps a solution to this might be awarding some perkies to everyone in the dar circle when a base is captured - that might entice folks onto the offense a bit more, and reward the guys that are playing a "team" role in the capture (like being the 2nd M3, or flying cover for the goon).  

Giving folks another way to earn perks might entice them to be a bit freer spending them...

EagleDNY
$.02
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Debonair on December 17, 2006, 04:02:19 PM
Quote
Originally posted by EzzyDuzIt
If everything will cost a varied amount of perks, then what happens when someone runs out of perks


"brother can you spare a Hurricane Mk.I:cry?"
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Kweassa on December 17, 2006, 04:43:10 PM
Quote
If everything will cost a varied amount of perks, then what happens when someone runs out of perks


1. The only way you will ever run out of perks, with this suggestion, is if you become a good pilot and have a great K/D - since having a high K/D will maximize the costs of planes while minimizing the amount of perks earned.

2. But if you do become a good pilot with a high enough K/D to hurt your perk balance, it means you don't have to worry about losing all your perks, because having a high K/D itself means you are becoming a better pilot.

3. So it's basically a perpetual perk machine, fueld by sucky flying. If you are running low on perks, go grab a high ENY plane that'd be very cheap. If you are a good pilot that plane will earn you perks. If you are a bad pilot. being in that sucky plane will kill you over and over - which will lower your K/D, and thus even a single kill you achieve with such low K/D in any plane, will bring you about 10 perks or so.

4. But in any event, if indeed someone purposely augers for about a month and blows all his perks away, I guess some of the earliest and suckiest rides can be free. Remember, the more you die, the lower your K/D becomes. And the lower your K/D, the higher your perks earned. You can probably get in a Hurri1 and go ram someone head-on, and will earn enough perks to fly high-end planes for quite many sorties.
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: BaldEagl on December 17, 2006, 05:35:07 PM
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
3. So it's basically a perpetual perk machine, fueld by sucky flying. If you are running low on perks, go grab a high ENY plane that'd be very cheap. If you are a good pilot that plane will earn you perks. If you are a bad pilot. being in that sucky plane will kill you over and over - which will lower your K/D, and thus even a single kill you achieve with such low K/D in any plane, will bring you about 10 perks or so.


OK now I'm confused.  So the point is to encourage people to be sucky pilots?  I don't need perks for that :)
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Kweassa on December 18, 2006, 06:49:09 AM
Quote
OK now I'm confused. So the point is to encourage people to be sucky pilots? I don't need perks for that


1. The way I see it, like you said people don't need encouragement to be sucky. Most people are already so sucky, that they can't get any more suckier than that.

2. Therefore, when all planes are "priced", obviously most people will be bankrupt.

3. Thus, applying the K/D into the perk system makes sure that no sucky person ever goes bankrup, and is inhibited in enjoying the game. It's a sort of a safety device.

4. However, there is a psychological factor to that device - I'm counting on the everyday man's inherent resistance to "losing money". In theory, the suckier you are the less your worries of going bankrupt. But I expect in reality, that despite the system people will feel resentful towards "buying" a plane with perk points and then losing it.

5. Thus, I expect a surrealistic win-win scenario. People don't have to worry about perks when they are sucky, but instead of being encouraged to become more sucky it will actually make them try harder to become a good pilot.

6. As for the more experienced gamers, it becomes more challenging as his K/D grows higher. Managing your perks, maintaining careful balance, thinking through on what equipment you will use on your mission, the costs and earnings of flying according to its price and your K/D status.. etc etc.


 Neato, eh? :D
Title: Can I.......
Post by: Spiritin on December 18, 2006, 07:56:17 AM
Can I have a million quid to start with? That way I can afford to fly......:D
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Laurie on December 18, 2006, 08:34:28 AM
this would pick on the less finacially comforted of us and benefit the kids with hordes of money:confused:

i would be in favour of a perk costing system, so every plane was perked, you start off with 300 perks in a tour and work from there. maybe ONE Plane like a spit 1 could be free.
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: BaldEagl on December 18, 2006, 09:11:28 AM
Actually, I'm totally against it.  I could see the merits in other games but who ever heard of a military charging it's conscripts for the equipment they use?

To me you lose some of the realism/submersion of the sim aspect and it becomes to gamey.

Just my $0.02
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: skycaptn on December 18, 2006, 04:29:49 PM
gaming this system would be easy

Fly 4 sorties in a LA-7 kill 10 pplz.

Auger 6 p40b's

rinse continue..
50k fighter perkies in a week.

:confused:


Not a good plan... however instead lets try this... leave the system how it is... and stop encouraging HTC to make the game more like a playstation game.  The way its headed all planes will fly from f3 mode and have the same FM>
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Rikitic on December 18, 2006, 10:20:50 PM
I never cared about perks. I mainly fly 190a8 (31 eny). Because I always have. I land kills in it because I feel the need to return from a fight with what carried me thru it. The sad thing is that this has turned into more a game rather than gravitate to the simulation aspect. Never said it was a sim, but its the closest I've found. The thing is you cant force people to fly the way you "think" they should. I would like to see more guys wanting to land regaurdless of kills because how can you fight without "YOUR" plane.

  I'm sure there is a troll waiting for me to finish this post, that thought makes me grin.

  I fly here to shoot down planes and land my kills,priority being on surviving.
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: Karnak on December 19, 2006, 09:00:22 AM
Easy to game simply by augering and lowering your K/D ratio.
Title: An interesting new perk idea..
Post by: wolf05 on December 25, 2006, 01:46:47 AM
I too say leave the game alone. It is just fine the way it is now.:aok