Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Hangtime on May 13, 2000, 10:28:00 PM
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Why do we have 'em?? We can set up a gunsight that frames the wingspan of a fighter at 200 yards, so why do we have range counters in AH? Surely; a scrolling digital range indicator was not found on the dash of any WWII a/c I know about.
Are range icons a crutch for those that can't see thru a gunsight?? A 'newbies' concession to play balance??
I'd like to see the range counter removed from the icon display to put a modicum of skill back into the gunnery component of AH fighter combat.
Opinions?
Hang
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I agree wholeheartedly
at the very least remove range icons inside of d3.0
playing w/o icons has proven to me they are a detractor from gameplay and tactics.
NO REAL WW2 PILOT COULD PRECISELY DETERMINE RANGE THE WAY WE CAN. MUCH LESS CLOSURE THE WAY WE CAN.
it is so artificial it stiffles gameplay and only gives people somthing to complain about when the get hit because they were "WORKING THE NUMBERS" to see if they were getting away and out of range.
every time I play in the TA without ICONS all guns feel realistic and accurate because I and the others in the TA flying with ICONS off subconciously hold fire till up close and personal since an airplane at d900 looks only a tiny bit larger than an airplane at d1.2
but you guys all knwo what I would do to all ENEMY ICONS if I got the chance (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
*POOF*! gone
[This message has been edited by Citabria (edited 05-13-2000).]
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Good idea. However, I think that many will find it too hard after it would be introduced.
How about a separate HA with all icons removed ?
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Pull range icons and replace them with a proper gunsight, not the "reflected ring-and bead" setup we got now.
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Good point on the closure...It really helps to know. You can get a good Idea of a guys e-state by knowing your speed and watching how the range icon changes...It is a huge crutch to more than just gunnery.
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Originally posted by Hristo:
How about a separate HA with all icons removed ?
This is definately what we need ! Maybe an Icon with Just a country Icon...no plane type, no range...in the HA of course ?
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Main argument for icons: screen depth perception.Thus range and closure perception will acturally be (much) poorer than RL.
That other W brand tried no icons in HA arena some time ago.Apart for some russian roulette types it was a flop ;=)
Prediction: if no icons are introduced attendence will be *very* low - only held up by the radar.Personally Id rather say goodbye to the latter + reduced range icons: like 40\friendly 18\foe.
danish
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As Danish said, lack of depth perception. Add to that that the human eye is quite good at picking up movements, especially in the periphery and this cannot be modelled unless you have a very big monitor/fim screen.
Now, I agree about the range icon. How about an EAW variant; keeping the icon and providing range info (at most, and this is debateable) from 8-5k? Also, adding some random variation in when the icon is displayed would make it more interesting also (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/biggrin.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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nice idea Hangtime, unless your in a tank shooting at another tank, better get real close.
by the way Hangtime, you made it to my squad page, lol
all in fun of course
blue skies all
wolf37
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How about (in order to make up for the lack of depth perception) rounding it up to the nearest .5k?
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Depth and motion perception are the problem but I agree with the sentiment Hang.
I would suggest a range that diplays as it does now from 7 to 3k in a reversed box (solid colour white text) then swops to just plain inside 3k with no range info.
I would also like to see plane type removed and just have freind or foe not even country (keep squad highlight) ,as judgement calls are made now as to how to engage way before you could identify the plane visually in reality. I think it would be more compettitve and interesting if you didn't know your oppo until you were close enough to visually ID them.
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they didnt use depth perception in ww2, they looked at how big the plane was and guessed by that on distance.
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What Hangtime said
Rude Out!
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True, depth perception is most noticeable at relatively short distances. Still, the peripheral movement bit suggests we at least keep icons under some circumstances. Range is another matter (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
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StSanta
II/JG2
(http://saintaw.tripod.com/santa.gif)
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IMHO it is best to let icons on, but the range numbers dissapearing under 1.5K.
That way the long range hawg turbolasers will be much less effective and you **must** measure the closure rate and distance on your own.
and please, make possible to change sights mode between AA and AG. It would be helpful on Jabo!!!
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Get rid of em!
No distance markers might cut down on some of the sniper shots utilizing zoom, that have been taking place.
Heck, while we are at it, lets get rid of zoom, except in bomb sites.
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(http://www.user.shentel.net/vonz/jag1.jpg)
[This message has been edited by NineZ (edited 05-14-2000).]
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Agreed Hang..
As we dont even pull trigger on taget till bout 250 out( the guys who fly .50s) this suits me. But i think the guys who fly cannons and let loose at 1.2 may have something else to say about it (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/cool.gif)
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Do we need them?
Yes
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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"
[This message has been edited by Vermillion (edited 05-14-2000).]
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I'm dubious that removing icon range is the panacea everyone thinks it will be as far as cannon gunnery goes. I flew the F4U-1C consistently for the first time last night and took almost all of my shots at 300 yards or under, just as I try to do in the Spit. Sad to say, the guns remain just as insanely deadly in that situation as they do at long range. Removing range icons might prevent the long range sniping, but we'll find that the Hog's plasma cannons still play a major role in outcomes.
Really, flying without icons is just a practice issue. After awhile, you get used to the plane sizes and can tell the direction and possible speed of the enemy. Eventually this negates the gunnery issue, though it does make overall SA significantly more difficult.
-- Todd/DMF
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Ahhhh... a constantly recurring theme; the icon vs depth perception.
I'm not suggesting removing the icon. I'm suggesting removing range data from the icon display.
This would in NO way effect depth perception; motion tracking or periphial view. An Icon would still be there. Juding distance becomes dependent on relative size; and this can be determined with a gunsight.
"Go in close; and when you think you are too close; go in closer"
---Maj Tommy McGuire, USAAF, 38 Kills WWII
Removing range data would add BACK into the sim the SKILL required to evaluate and adjust trajectory for a shot. A conventional gunsight can be set up to 'box'the wingspan of an a/c to determine range appropriate for gunnery.
"..as his plane filled my gunsight I pressed the tit. The results were incredible. No sooner did I feel the plane shudder as the machine guns went off, than a huge flame engulfed the 109, followed immediately by a black cloud of debris.."
----John Godfrey "The Look of Eagles"
Certainly; it would be more difficult to assess WHEN to shoot, how long to hold that shot; but that's the point.
"No guts; No glory. If you're going to shoot him down, you have to get in there and mix it up with him"
--- 'Boots' Blesse; USAF, 10 kills, Korea
Consider also the defenders dillema. You want to put a sembalance of 'fear' or or mortality into the sim?? Bingo.
"Waiting for the proper moment to begin my evasion tactics was agonizing"
---- Duke Cunningham; Americas last Ace.
How about HO's.. Oh my; wouldn't THIS screw the pooch for all those HO dweebs?? (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/smile.gif)
"..he saw me immediatly and rolled out of his turn towards me so that a HO attack became inevitable. I peered thru the reflector sight at the rapidly closing 109. We opened fire together, and immediatly a hail of lead thudded into my Spitfire. One moment the Messerschmidt was a clearly defined shape, it's wingspan nicely enclosed within the circle of my reflector sight, and the next it was on top of me, a terrifying blur which blotted out the sky ahead. Then we hit."
---- Alan Deere, RAF, 22.5 kills WWII
And finally.. how about those buffs?? Consider the effect this would have on attacking and defending a buff. Without range icons, that gunner is gonna have a significantly more difficult job of determining when to shoot... his ammo is not infinite!
In short; RANGE was always subjective for WWII pilots. I don't think that removing RANGE data will lessen the imersion factor; detract from realisim or cripple game play. In fact; I think it will significantly improve game play and force the pilot to be a larger part of the attack equation.
"I gained experience with every plane shot down, and was now able to fire in a calm, deliberate manner. Distance and deflection were carefully judged before firing. This is not something that comes by accident; but only by experience..."
----John Godfrey, USAAF 16.33 kills, WWII
If this sim is to be the standard by which the others of its genere is judged, should not it's superb weapon, ballistics and aircraft modeling be balanced by realistic gunsights, ranging and gunnery paramaters?
"We ALWAYS underestimated our range."
--- Air Marshall Johnnie Johnston, RAF
Lets re-introduce the concept of the pilot making the range decison; not the system.
"I had no system of shooting as such. It is definitly more in the feeling side of things that these skills develop. I was at the front 5 and a half years, and you just get a feeling for the right amount of lead"
-- General Guenther Rall, LW, 275 Kills WWII
Hang
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We probably don't have enough folks but I would like to see 2 MA's one with training wheels and one without. No auto-takeoff no range counters etc....
The relaxed realism would be a good place to learn.
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Well it seems like we kicking dead horse..but in the past if we kicked it enouph it came to life...what ever that means
Yeah lose the range icons or reduce them down to 2k or less
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the worst part is those who prefer not to look at them don't even have the OPTION to turn them off
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And finally.. how about those buffs?? Consider the effect this would have on attacking and defending a buff. Without range icons, that gunner is gonna have a significantly more difficult job of determining when to shoot... his ammo is not infinite!
Hang, last night ammo hosted a h2h game, the catch: no icons whatsoever. I actually found that my lethality improved while gunning from a buff. The cause? Probably the fact that I knew *exactly* where to aim instead of having a 30-foot icon masking my target. Icon-less fighting is the coolest thing I've done in AH. You can actually dive for the deck and extend without your icon giving you away. Vulching is a tough business because it's hard to spot a con rolling on the runway.
No range icons would make things better in my opinion, but I'm not the only one playing. It may drive away more people than it's worth, since it is a crutch for most players. I guess you have to think about what is good for the game as a whole instead of individual preferences.
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Mark VanZwoll
33rd Strike Group
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but why not give us the option to turn off enemy icons altogether?
& just turn off enemy range
& just turn off enemy plane type
& just turn off both on enemy leaving only the country ID
options options options
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I flew with av8r and Lephturn in the TA with no icons today to find out what it is like and it was the most radical difference I have seen so far. I hadn't realised how much I relied on the icon info and I seriously sucked for several. However after a time I began to feel my SA improving and I started to really enjoy it.
Two things came into my mind though:-
1. In the bigger enviroment of the MA how would you find the enemy and identify them as enemy?
2. Camouflage schemes come into their own - av8r's spit disappeared against the ground but Lister's P51 shone like a beacon - opens a whole new paint schemes can of worms.
I think my vote now goes with freind/foe icons only which disappear at 4 k
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I have an idea that's kind of a compromise between extremes. What if the icons range indicator only had a couple states. For example, it could say <3k, <2k, and <1k. Another idea is maybe a color indicator for range using the above cutoffs. For example, blue bar under icon = <3k, yellow = <2k, and red = <1k. In addition the only icon you get above 3k range is a the country ID. Once you get below 3k you get the full icon, but with the range icon limitations I described above. IMO this is slighly more realistic, and it doesn't really penalize those who don't have 19" monitors. (Myself included: 14" and 15" on my computers. (http://bbs.hitechcreations.com/smf/Smileys/default/frown.gif) ) I too have participated in a couple no icon fights in the TA, and it was a blast for me. For others though, they HATED it. There needs to be a happy balance between realism and gameplay logistics. (IE Limitations on computer monitor resolution, monitor size, etc.)
For tanks, lets just have a country icon (ie no range) that only appears once you get under 2.5k or so. Low flying aircraft should also get a similar form of protection. Maybe you only get the <1k range indicator when you get real close.
How does this sound?
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bloom25
THUNDERBIRDS
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hiya hangtime:
hey it makes no differance to me, i can die just as easy with or with out icons.
so what ever we end up with is what i will fly with.
blues skies all
wolf37
THUNDERBIRDS
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An option is to have range markers up to d5 and then they dissapear and only the plane type icon shows...
Thats an good compromise i think.
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AH : Maniac
WB : -nr-1-
(http://www.rsaf.org/osf/images/osf_inga.gif)
http://www.rsaf.org/osf/ (http://www.rsaf.org/osf/)
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Seems to me that range icons are way more important for determining rate of closure, than for gunnery, and I am not convinced that our 2D view allows us a "real" sense of rate of closure without them.
However, I fully support Citabria's request to allow players the option of turning on or off each icon function independently.
In any case, I would like individual players to have full control of icon colors, both brightness and hue, so that everyone can adjust icons for optimum visibility (or otherwise).
popeye
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give us the option to turn them off while leaving country affiliation icon on.