Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: stockli on December 14, 2006, 01:00:26 PM
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I am in no way shape or form a decent P51 driver.
I just really got into flying the P51 and am trying to learn to be a good 51 pilot.
I have noticed a few things about the plane already that I use to my advantage and would love to hear about other things to try and moves for this plane.
I hope some of the P51 vets and aces will chime in here.
First I think the 51 is the most enjoyable plane in the game to fly
I have noticed that although the P51 doesnt steep climb well, if you drop one notch of flaps it will shallow climb better than anything with minimal loss of e.
I have found that this can be used to your advantage especially in a chandelle and works well as an escape move, putting you in a better position to reenter the fight. I have not found a plane that can keep up in that type of climb (maybe a tempest but have not gone up against one yet)
I have also noticed when dropping from a given altitude this plane builds energy quickly and if you are not very careful with the throttle an overshoot is impossible to avoid.
I hope the better P51 pilots can give me their take on the plane as well as on the things I have observed and give me their opinions.
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Always remember that the 51 is a offencive plane when flying in fighter. It does this role very well but for defencive reversals and base defence with cons over your head your better off with almost any other plane in the hanger. The 51 is a 10k + fighter uses the alt that you have to keep your E and always come into a fight fast. Don't fight at the deck our try and dog fight with the furballers. Nose down with speed and come up to your enemy. BnZ is the best tactic for the 51 but the 50's are weak and most of the time it takes a couple passes to make a kill. The 51 flown in this fashion take a pilot with percentile and time. Keep it fast and dont tangle too much and if you get in trouble recognize it and put the nose down and run that's the best defence that you have.
I flew the 51 for a couple of camps but got frustrated with the guns. Just not my style but it does jabo and high alt fighter really well. I think that anyone that fly the 51 would be better off with the 47 because of the extra guns and the 47 can be flow in a defencive manner.
Also convergence is important in your 51 Gball has is set at 250 350 and 425 i think and it works well for him. The guns are the weakest link and you need to have a firing solution for a longer time to take a wing off. Because of this time you can get into bad spots and get reversed easy to be on the lookout for a spit 16 and make sure you kill him (:
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Be careful using that notch of flaps, it can really get you into trouble if you use them too much...I'd reccomend only using them when your really fast or are at the top of a rope and are trying to bring your plane around faster.
Although that convergence thing may work for Gball, I really can't imagine setting my guns in the 51 at different distances. I have all guns set at 325 and it seems to work well.
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Let me first say that I've been flying about a year, and I am no authority on the 51. But I have noticed some things:
You can go into a furball all day with one. Keep it fast. You don't want to turn fight some guy at 400yds, but if you zoom out to 1.5k, pop one notch of flaps and reverse, raising them as soon as you do, you can keep your e up and eventually catch him on a forward 1/4 angle. If you are high speed merging, and you plan your reversal right, you can wind up on his tail, and gun him down. Just don't tight turn more than once, stay loose and keep them at arms length. The only time I think you're really in trouble is when you have 3 nme's diving on you, or you try to slow turn fight.
The guns are weak, I set mine to 300 after much experimenting. To each his own. You will often chew a guy up so bad on a bnz that someone else will finish the job and you'll get a kill or two that way. I don't waste a lot of time going after the same guy unless the numbers are few. In big furballs, I take what shots I can get and focus on not getting into the two conditions above.
When chased, run, if you can stay 800 out you're pretty safe, and few planes (D9 maybe and LA7) can catch you if you're already rocking. (the 51 accellerates pretty slowly but IS fast) The supercharger kicks in at 16k and if you can get there, you can outrun either one of the above.
If you can't run, you can use your flaps and throttle to scissor and usually force an overshoot. You may get pinged a little, but 51' s are tougher than spits. I've lost my oil pan and made it a sector to land. Seldom do that in a spit.
The flaps in the 51 are HIGH SPEED, like 350mph. 51's turn real well at high speeds and around 350 they will turn like mad with ONE NOTCH of flaps when fast. They seem to retain E well too with 1 notch. I go into a turn at 350, come around smartly and find myself at 300 and accellerating.
I think the 51 is one of the best planes, mainly because you can SURVIVE and FIGHT. It will get you out of the fight, and face it that's how you land kills, but it's good enough to fight in and you don't have to fly it at nosebleed alts either. I just mix it up, staying either high, or on the edges of the furball and staying fast. When you're buddies all die, and they all look at you, run.
If I'm fighting within a sector, I take 50% fuel and that's it. You can fly forever in a 51 and you don't want to be loaded down with gas. If you're short, set your pitch to 2500rpm and your Manifold to 43 and cruise for like 190 miles on a 1/4 of the wing tanks. If I'm flying farther, I take drops and lose them when I enter the fight. You can fly twice forever with drops.
I can't hit the planet as jabo so I have no opinion on that.
I too would welcome tips from the experts --- Fencer....
SINNER
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Coors would be a good person to ask. He stopped flying the 51 but has years in the bird. I would pm him in main and ask some questions.
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I've spent 90% of my time in AH Beta, AH 1, AH2 in the P-51D mustang. Its my ride of choice for the MA.
Firstly, guns. I really fail to see why people say the guns on it are weak. For someone who can use em properly, i assure you they are anything but weak. Try a 4-gun P-51B, then you'll appreciate a 6-gun package! The 6x50 cal package is brutal. I often take aircraft out at high-deflections in single passes no problems at all. The 50cal has a beautifully flat trajectory, a high muzzle-velocity, and high ROF. Now mult it by 6, and you get a more than capable guns package, which is easy to use, easy to hit with, easy to predict where your rounds are going to land. Now, while it lacks the laser-like 1-ping 'insta-death' (tm) of some of the cannon armed a/c, it is still a brutally efficient killer. You actually have to *learn to aim* your guns and concentrate the hits at a point, not just spray haphazardly in the hope 1 shell will do the killing. The 6x50cals is a real mans' gun package :D
As for convergence, its a personal thing, but you will find you will need to concentrate them all at one point, rather than spread em out. Much more effective IMO. Also i set mine all at 325. You want to set them at your typical firing point for your flying style. There's a temptation to set them out at 450 or 500, as most BnZ in the pony, and they want to fire as soon as possible, and rarely have the luxury of closing in from dead astern to under this range as your intended victim normally sees you coming miles out. I film most of my engagements as habit, and one thing i noticed on reviewing them, is actually most kills are from high-AOT snap-shots at fairly close range (around 300). But that's more a function of my style - YMMV.
Now to your climbing tactic. Lets put it on the table: the mustang is outclassed by numerous a/c in the raw climbing ability department. So why anyone would rely on it as a valid and sure-fire tactic is beyond me. ALWAYS fly to your strength which exploit your opponents weakness.
Trying to simply out climb your average MA opponent in a mustang is a sure-fire trip to the tower. Now lets also be clear that there's two types of climb: sustained, and zoom. Relying on sustained climb rate is not a sure-fire safe tactic. It may work against some a/c and sometimes you may just be lucky, but in an even-E climb contest the mustang will loose on average more than it will win. To be successful at that tactic you need a clear and decisive climb rate advantage. Zoom climb on the other hand the mustang can do just as well, if not better than most a/c in the arena. Relying on this tactic is bread-and-butter stuff for the Energy Fighter and/or BnZ'er. The key is correct relative Energy assessments (easier said than done most of the time).
Flaps may delay the inevitable stall, but they also suck E out of you in the form of drag. Use them sparingly and use them appropriately. At the top of your hammerhead or in a scissors where an overshoot would be deadly etc.
The Pony is a brilliant Energy fighter. Perhaps not as good as the 109K or the spixteen (luckily no-one flies the spit 16 as an E fighter). Ill dispense with the usual "you need alt advantage to be successful" drivel, as thats really standard advice for any engagement, so we'll take that as read. There's no one-way to engage all a/c. Some will require an aggressive high-speed angles fight, while others may require a more patient and progressive E-attrition style of fight. The pony can do both pretty well, though the later is lots harder to do than the former.
The pony shines at high-speeds, if you can keep the fight nice and fast where it counts the pony will reward you in spades. Its a extremely maneuverable a/c at those speeds thanks to its brilliant instantaneous turn rates. More than capable to taking on spitfires, zekes, nikis, 109s etc in a high-speed turn contest. Just don't get it too slow, or you'll be meat on the table. This means always leave a buffer of alt under you to keep the fight nice and fast if you want to play the high-speed angles-fight game.
The E fight, well, its the same advice for any a/c, so i wont get into specifics here, as i don't think theres anything particular you should know to E Fight in a pony with that doesn't apply to any other a/c.
Lastly note the B and D have quite different characteristics. The B is more stable at slow speeds, and is a monster above 15K - it really is extremely capable up there, but is let down by the 4x50cals. The D is in its element between 6-13k. This is where its strengths are at their strongest relative to common MA a/c. The 51D is slower than a La7, Tiffie, and Yak 9u below 5k, and slower than the 109K4 at all alts while it has WEP, and slower than a 190D below 7k. The D gets outclassed by the B above 15k.
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Great post!
Only part i didn't like was
(luckily no-one flies the spit 16 as an E fighter).
I know one person that can
:eek:
And dont give away my secrets
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Ssssh, dont tell people the ways of the dark-side!
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oh come on tell us... I'll give you a buffalo nickel :D
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Ya i got one of those nickles from shawk. Played quarts with it one night and swallowed it. Not going be be tricked anymore..
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Originally posted by Capz
Be careful using that notch of flaps, it can really get you into trouble if you use them too much...I'd reccomend only using them when your really fast or are at the top of a rope and are trying to bring your plane around faster.
Although that convergence thing may work for Gball, I really can't imagine setting my guns in the 51 at different distances. I have all guns set at 325 and it seems to work well.
1st off never take 100% gas, avoid 75%.. anything that puts gas in the AUX tank. 50% with 2 DTs, drop 1 DT on the runway, the other when its time to brawl... that way you get used to having at the exact same fighting wieght each time. Plus its enough gas to go very far.
I've found chopping throttle / kicking full rudder is often a better option than dropping a flap, but I'm constantly working both flaps & throttle, always. This is where a force feedback stick has helped me a-lot, I get a "feel" for the stall and adjust accordingly.
I set my convergence, on the 51b, to 650 / 400, a good shot on deflection is a head to toe spay, and it showers bomber wings with hits. Regardless calibrating your sights using .target is a must.
Unless I'm willing to be shot down, I set my hard deck at 7k and try to keep between 7K - 14k. You can turn fight, low with everyone, with success, esp in the B, it will angle / turn with just about anything with constant attention to flaps / throttle... a dude in a n1k can just turn well because, it'll take a B pony a few flap & throttle adjustments to accomplish the same thing.
Last... if you compress, chop throttle, kick rudder hard and trim out of it ( K and I keys I think), and be sure the views are set so that you can easily see all around you.. I set the JS button next to my "hat" to look up, that way I can look in any hat direction and up with 1 finger.
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I just go fast and never fix myself on a target for more than a couple seconds...when my energy starts to drop, I either run like mad, or die. It's amazing how long you can fly in a furball if you keep your speed up and dodge and weave through the masses firing when a target presents itself.
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All in all the pony is a very adaptable bird. It can be fought very well as both an E and angles fighter....it is less forgiving of mistakes in judgement then a hog but offers a better E/Angles platform then a 190 or tiffie (IMO). It is clearly inferior as an E fighter to the 109K/G14 (agains just my opinion) but has a slight edge with its flaps in angles aspects.
What it offers is a multirole MA ride equal to any....just like the hog you can fly all mission "types" with reasonable success. I am by no means a good pony driver but I fly it occasionally for others or in a squad hop. somewhere I have a clip similiar to 1cemanvvs 's ridealong (was the hop just prior) that is also a 5 kill hop. Thats pretty typical for me (and achievable for all since I dont T&B a pony at all on those hops). !ce would verify that no turn in that hop was more then 270 degrees and we never got over 10k. The key to flying the pony as a beginning or intermediate ride is really pretty simple.
1) SA.....
It's a plane of opportunity....for you and the guy that bounces you.
2) fly....dont "shoot".....
The pony is a plane that needs to be flown. You cant just roll in behind a guy and pull the joystick toward your belly. Lag rolls, yoyo's and intercept angles are all critical to success. The monet you start "chasing tail" and stop flying you died....you just might not find out for s few minutes. The secret to kills in the pony is flying to where the guy will be....not chasing were he was.
3) 1 notch of flaps.....
nothing more till you regularly land kills....yes they help and yes you need to learn to use them. But AFTER you learn to use the bird correctly. That 3rd notxh isnt doing anything but kill you once you need it.
4) 1/4 second bursts....
I competely disagree with comments on the "weakness" of pony guns. Even the 4 x .50 in the B or FM2 will wreck your day (and plane pretty quickly). Ffire small bursts and learn to get them on target. Do not chase any shot in a pony....by all means lay it on if the guys floundering....but do not pull g's and shoot on manuevering cons....use your superior position (you are on his 6) and E (you are in a pony) to set up your next shot. Let other folks finish your cripples....better 4 kills and 3 assists then 1 Kill and a letter to your kin because you chased that 1st Jug down to the deck...
All planes in the game are very capable of providing a solid (and survivable) platform....the pony more so then others. The biggest mistake the "newer" player makes is simply assuming that since the pony is the "best fighter of the war" it will save you from being a "worse" pilot. The best quote ever on the pony is simple. "It's not what the pony could do, its the fact that it did it over Berlin that made the pony special".....
I am far from the best stick here, I certainly wouldnt make the top 100 "duelers" and I'm not in the top 100 MA K/d guys either. What I can do is win 80%+ of my MA 1 on 1 /1 on 2 fights and fly "smart" when I want to. Like me you might never reach "uber dueler" status or "Quake3 stardom" but you can learn to compete successfully in the MA relatively quickly in a pony hog or other plane.....
I am primarily a hog driver, I fly it much more "recklessly"...I also will up to defend the "alamo" from time to time. Looking beyond those at other rides..
P51D 42/7
P40E 11/2
109K 19/2
F6F 12/2
These are rides that I normally dont fly alot (used to be a good F6F stick) aggresively. Basically simply Good SA (for me at least) and fundementally correct ACM. Uber "pilot stuff" will get you killed more often then not in an "MA" style arena. You need to look for and convert opportunity while maintaining both offensive and defensive options. The pony is a two edged sword....if you pick it as a "primary" trainer you'll gain excellent SA and E management as well as good gunnery setup solutions. Just dont try and duplicate the E to angles transitions a hog or better angles fighter can do. Attack with the advantage....defend with SA,Speed and high tempo evasives.
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Like you I am too learning the 51d, and the art of BnZ and E fighting, Ive been playing this game for a couple months now, and when i started, grabbed a spitty or another ride i saw people landing alot of kills in, and just jumped into the ball...
bored of that and wanting something a bit more challenging, and..."time consuming" i took to reading up on these boards, and learning ACM, soon figuring out an alternative fighting style.
Since then ive come on leeps and bounds, been up with snaphook (humble) to learn from him, as he mentioned, and am generally just trying to soak up as much information as I can get my hands on.
I started off with average SA, and has been mentioned, it is one of the keys to successful fighting in the 51, timing your merges/passes whatever maneuvre your doing is critical in getting those few seconds (if that) of firing oppertunity, and making them count and retaining your E and defensive position...
youll find as you start out, the same as i did, that poor judgement would lead to overshoots, missed shots, and youll find trying to turn and chase that kill too hard, and end up being picked by another enemy.
this can get very very frustrating at times, but all you have to do is stick with it, ive progressed now from booming onto my enemy at close to 500mph not even being able to maneuvre (the 51d is good at speed, but not THOSE speeds :P ) and just wasting my own time. now its starting to dawn on me that i dont need all that speed just enough E to make my climb out, and as you progress with the 51 you learn the needs of the plane, which gives you your limits of adjustment on every pass, this leads to alot more successful engagements overall.
im going to stop here as i cant write for long periods of time without getting lost in my thoughts, so ill re-adjern in due course :)
like i said i myself am a rookie, but thought i would share my thoughts with you as i know what kinda boat (plane?) your in. maybe it would possibly be beneficial to get together at some point and just try and learn together? 2 heads are always better than one (as our 2 51d's at 12k :P)
see you in the skys
- Ice
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Theres lotsa good info in here. I'll add some:
1) Speed should always be considered "relative" to your opponent. If he is turning hard 300 mph may be over kill in a BnZ.
2) BnZ is a term that has lotsa pizzaz. An actual dogfight may change tactically as the situation evolves. Don't get the idea in your mind that BnZ or the Angles Fight is everything and/or seperate types. In the course of the fight you might go for angles or convert your fight into energy.
3) The Pony can just about turn with anything through a turn and a half if you set up the fight correctly.
4) Know your opponents aircrafts strength and weaknesses. For instance and let's face it the zeke is a slow plane. It turns ok. That's nice. If you get one attacking you push over and move away. At 1500-1800 yds reverse back into him. At the merge take the Pony straight up. He cannot follow you. You park on top and own him. Simple, effective.
5) If you get caught slow on a merge use the others guys turns to get co-speed with you. If he breaks left you wait until he's just about come around in his 180 dgree turn then you begin a 90 degree left turn. Now you're taking his hard break turn from 180 degrees to 270 without requiring you lose bleed much E at all. Begin a gentle climb and walk away from him.
6) Views, views, views. I'll say it over and over. Lose sight, lose the fight. If you never lose sight of the guy you WILL see him when he makes a mistake and can capitolize on it. You will immediately note if the fight is heading south on you and you can plan a bugout. The more you get used to never losing sight the easier it all becomes.
7) My guns are set to 200 yds. They all fire on the trigger pull. It's the weight of ammo into the target that takes them apart. When the rounds were weakened it meant that you now needed to put between 3/4 and a full second burst into the guy. The Pony is very good at turning and braking. Use it to actually saddle up on your target. Snapshots are fine but if you saddle up you get to pick your shot, ruthlessly. :)
8) Situational Awarenees. (SA) Think about it. You are flying to a field to get in a fight. It's like a huge conveyor belt. One side has their planes coming in just as the other side is. Why would you want to intentionally fly under the bad guys? Or get caught climbing to them? The Pony flies well but it likes some speed to do it well. Drop tanks are not always an option at a field. Take 75% fuel. Once you take off go immediately the AUX tank and hit WEP. Let WEP do two things for you...burn off the Aux fuel and get you up to your cruise alt quickly.
9) Cruise alt. The Pony takes a little time to get up to cruise speed. Grab to an alt you feel comfortable if you meet and engage the enemy. When you hit that alt go level and let the plane accellerate to its cruise speed. You'll be surprised at how fast she cruises. From cruise speed you can easily dip the nose for even more speed with little effort or take some guy up who's trying to climb to you.
10) the deck is no ones friend. The fast plane can be run down easily by someone dining in from above. Pick your fights. Learn to fight "UP" instead of down.
There's lots more but I'm about ready to give my turnover and go home....
Hope this helps.
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Ren was in a hurry to go home :D
6 = #1
8 = #2
4 = #3
7 = #4
1, 2, 3, 5, 9 10 order how u wish ;) - as Ren said lots good info alread posted, including Ren's tips
if you want to know some good P51 Flyers, look up Fencer, DmdDano, WldThing, Fool5047, Boozer, GrayEagl, Tango, Midnight, SkatSr, DmdJW, Widewing, there is other great ones, but my lunch break is short :(
as for convergence is all in what works for you, I prefer 350 for all guns when talking 50. cal.............some prefer harmonzing them ( different distance set each pair)
also, although a F4U, F6f, P51D, F4f etc have a 6 x 50.'s gun package the Shooting platform is very different between them all, so one must get accustomed to the gun platform of the plane, is why I prefer a F4U or F6F over a P51D..........
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Humble touched upon flap usage in P-51s. I'll elaborate a bit on his comments.
Flaps can be used to tighten up a turn to either get a shot or gain position. Unfortunately for the P-51 pilot, beyond 3 notches (for lack of a better term) the flaps do not provide nearly as much lift as they do drag.
I have tested the P-51s for turn radius with flaps at all positions. What I discovered is that using more than 3 notches decreases your turn radius very little. What it really does is kill your speed. Even three notches is marginal under most circumstances.
This is why managing your speed is so important when flying the P-51s. Contrary to popular opinion, P-51s have a miserable turn radius when below corner speed. Below 200 mph Mustangs are usually getting into serious trouble. This generally goes for the P-47s as well. P-38s to a lesser degree. Big blue fighters have the ability to transition from BnZ, to E fighting, to angles fighting seamlessly. None of the AAF fighters can match that ability. Thus, if you fly F4Us or the F6F often, you may need to adjust your fighting style when flying Mustangs.
With the F4U-1A, for example, you can dump some flaps and roll in behind a Spitfire with confidence that he will not be able to shake you off before he's dead. With the P-51s, you will not be able to follow the Spitfire through a hard break turn. Therefore, should you not get a shot or miss, you will need to develop a sense for when it is time to disengage and reposition. The better P-51 pilots recognize when it's time to bug-out.
Regards,
Widewing