Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Benny Moore on December 18, 2006, 01:33:08 AM
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Where are the groundloops? Any taildragger pilot will tell you that groundloops will happen if the tail is allowed to slide more than a few degrees off center. Yet in Aces High II, I've only managed to groundloop the Corsair. All the other taildraggers not only have no groundloop tendencies, but cannot be groundlooped if one tries.
Please, before posting something clever (and I know you simulator types so love to do that), do some basic reading on what a groundloop is and what causes it. I'm aware that the lack of wind in the simulator can account for decreased probability of the occurence, but in no way should it make it impossible. As it is, only one ship - two at the most - can be groundlooped at all. Only the F-4U can be groundlooped unintentionally.
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could u explain to me what a groundloop is? :D
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Once, when I posted this at a forum for another simulator which also lacked groundloops, a clown replied something like, "There's no way any airplane is going to make a vertical maneuver on the ground." Another asked, "Why would you want to?"
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I have no trouble groundlooping anything. It's probably your trim settings.
And I've never heard the word groundloop used by real pilots. I guess groundlooping isn't popular these days.
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In the game ground looping is where you land and spin around sometimes breaking off a wing and ending up off the runway. Happens to me when I come in to land too slow and hit the brakes before locking the tail wheel on the runway. Happened to me a few nights ago in an La-7. Been playing this game 6 years. Still happens sometimes.
Les
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Originally posted by Leslie
In the game ground looping is where you land and spin around sometimes breaking off a wing and ending up off the runway. Happens to me when I come in to land too slow and hit the brakes before locking the tail wheel on the runway. Happened to me a few nights ago in an La-7. Been playing this game 6 years. Still happens sometimes.
Les
ah ok.. the only plane i have trouble with that is the f4u but ive learned to just let it roll a little b4 applying the brakes to prevent it..
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It happens, especially if you throttle up too fast or kick rudder in the wrong direction :o
also if you settle down and tap the toe brakes or rudder too hard or too soon.
I tend to think the torque effects on the ground are a bit soft in game, watch in-cockpit film of a Warbird taking off and you'll see what I mean. Takes a real bootfull of rudder to get off the ground, and even a Hog or Tempest in game doesn't take very much rudder to take off straight. All about playability, can't fault them for that. Hard to get anyone to play when theres no trainer aircraft to learn on and most of the planes have over 1,000 HP- no newbies would ever get off the ground.
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i use auto take-off so i really dont notice what u are talking about in game..
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I groundloop my spit9 1 in 3 landings. I've been assuming that it's my brakes, which are usually set before the wheels even touch the runway.
I also usually don't worry about it because it's on the runway when it happens and I just "re-up".
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Wikipedia:
"In aviation, a ground loop refers to the rapid rotation of a fixed-wing aircraft in the horizontal plane whilst on the ground. Aerodynamic and centrifugal forces may cause one wing to rise, which may then cause the other wingtip to touch the ground. In severe cases (particularly if the ground surface is soft), the outside wing can dig in, causing the aircraft to swing violently or even cartwheel."
I assume people have different kind of experiences (in AH) depending on their usual ways of take-off and landing. Big issues might be whether they lock the tail wheels before take-off, and what speed they use for landing, flaps/no flaps, stalling the plane to 3 points or not, etc...
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Ground loops can happen on take off also. Depending on the aircraft, you
have to use the rudder to keep yourself tracking down the runway, a smooth
application of power at the start of the take off roll will help too. Hint, all the
single engine aircraft need right rudder to stay on the runway, except the
IL-2. It needs left rudder, prop rotation is counter clockwise.
On landing, once you are on the ground and have slowed down a little,
hold full back pressure on the stick, this forces the tail down and locks the
tail wheel. Watch out though, if you are too fast, you will go back up, then
stall and crash.
Mike
aka BTMe62
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The fear of groundlooping is why I never land my plane, I prefer to get shot down...it saves me the humiliation of having someone see me crash for no reason....well sometimes I crash into trees and water and buildings and mountains and GVs and PT boats and.....
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On autotrim, I'd have to agree. Take the autotrim off and I'm not sure that is the case. The spitfires and 109s sure seem easy enough to spin out, and I've put a few wingtips in the dirt during takeoffs & landings by forgetting to be careful with them.
EagleDNY
$.02
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before I got my CH rudder pedals I pretty much ground looped everything. it was too hard for me to coordinate a landing using the rudder. With the rudder pedals its much easier. the 109's and Spitfires seem to me to require more rudder input than other planes. I cannt comment on the F4U's, I usually only use them from CVs and land on CVs
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Where are the groundloops? Any taildragger pilot will tell you that groundloops will happen if the tail is allowed to slide more than a few degrees off center. Yet in Aces High II, I've only managed to groundloop the Corsair. All the other taildraggers not only have no groundloop tendencies, but cannot be groundlooped if one tries.
Please, before posting something clever (and I know you simulator types so love to do that), do some basic reading on what a groundloop is and what causes it. I'm aware that the lack of wind in the simulator can account for decreased probability of the occurence, but in no way should it make it impossible. As it is, only one ship - two at the most - can be groundlooped at all. Only the F-4U can be groundlooped unintentionally.
Corsair's major issue in WWII was the ground loop. 109's, some Spit's and the IL-2 have some ground loop issues in the game as well.
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I still groundloop my Spit 16 probably 1 in 4 landings. Spits are touchy that way.
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hubsonfire you don’t know too many real pilots then if you have never heard of a real pilot use the word ground loop. Real pilots meaning pilots that are tail dragger endorsed lol.
Nick
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The reason you don't hear many of todays pilots talk about ground looping is because they don't fly tail draggers.
Airplanes with tail wheels, a narrow main gear or that are short from tip to tail will all have the potential to ground loop. Combine all three and you have to be very awake when landing. Let it get away from you for a second, let that tail slide out and you could very definitely find yourself in a ground loop.
Take the Pitts Special, not a very difficult airplane to land, but it is known for being very difficult to land due to it's tail wheel, short fairly narrow gear and very short coupling, and add no forward view.
When asked about the squirrely ground handling of his Pitts aircraft, it's inventor Curtis Pitts, would say - "I have never seen a squirrely airplane, but I have seen plenty squirrely pilots"
Tricycle gear airplanes don't have as great a potential to ground loop. Some may say it is not possible. The issues with Nose wheels is not smashing them into the ground making sure you always land on the mains and let the nose gently touch down as you slow.
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Reading of all those people ground looping a Spit is terrible!
OK I have done it myself, but only when not paying attention or when looking around for Vulchers while landing.
I never use Auto takeoff and so have become accustomed to correcting swing with Rudder. After landing contact you should always be watching out for any tendancy to swing and be prepared to tap in some Rudder in the appropriate direction (not brake).
Perhaps it is because I do a three point landing that I rarely ground loop. I very rarely bounce either. From watching real Spits I get the feeling the three point landing technique is preferred! - This is the technique where you hold off the aircraft as close to the runway as you can until it settles (With stall horn humming away in AH!) and tail low. Misjudge it by holding off high and you will probably break something as it drops a couple of feet. Called three point because main gear and tail tend to make contact all togther.
The unfortunate thing about a Spit is that you break the undercart before completing any ground loop because it is not very strong.
As mentioned by others, the worse aircraft I have found in AH is the Corsair but it is tough enough to survive some gound loops. And yes I did ground loop the Corsair when I first tried it! (AH1) - I thought it was an evil beast on take off!, but now know it was the inept pilot! - Not sure if I have ground looped it since AHII started.
Did you know the corsair was only used on carriers after the Brits showed the Yanks how to! (Head down for the flak!). PS i cann't remember if this was technique, aircraft mods or both.
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Most of the people in this thread do not, as I suspected, know what a real ground loop is. Ordinarily, a ground loop is not caused by brake use! It is an event can happen with no pilot input. As I said, there are only one or two airplanes that can have this happen in Aces High II.
A ground loop is not caused by a wingtip hitting the ground. It is not necessarily caused by stomping one brake. All it takes, in reality, is letting your taildragger airplane's tail get more than a few degrees off center while on the ground.
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I've ground looped Spits, Corsairs and 51Ds. Never the 51B model for some reason. I always have to be more careful with the D.
I always write it off to being spoiled by the 38 lack of torque and nose wheel steering :)
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Where are the groundloops? Any taildragger pilot will tell you that groundloops will happen if the tail is allowed to slide more than a few degrees off center. Yet in Aces High II, I've only managed to groundloop the Corsair. All the other taildraggers not only have no groundloop tendencies, but cannot be groundlooped if one tries.
Please, before posting something clever (and I know you simulator types so love to do that), do some basic reading on what a groundloop is and what causes it. I'm aware that the lack of wind in the simulator can account for decreased probability of the occurence, but in no way should it make it impossible. As it is, only one ship - two at the most - can be groundlooped at all. Only the F-4U can be groundlooped unintentionally.
Just as an afterthought. Benny, you gotta relax. Just a game. Not real planes. But for us wannabe WW2 pilots it fills the role very nicely.
Suspend your disbelief for what it's worth :)
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Gosh...and I thought it was only ME that did this.:confused: Thought it was cause I'm still a Noob.:lol
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Originally posted by nick172
hubsonfire you don’t know too many real pilots then if you have never heard of a real pilot use the word ground loop. Real pilots meaning pilots that are tail dragger endorsed lol.
Nick
I consider any one who is trained to fly a real airplane a real pilot. Are you a real pilot?
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Benny the ground loop is usually due to lack of correct pilot input i.e. a failure to take the right corrective action (on an aircraft that has such a tendancy). It can be induced by overcorrection as well. Wingtips hitting the ground may or may not happen during the loop but this as you say is not usually the root cause of a ground loop, but one thing that can happen as a side effect.
Letting a wing hit the ground during take off or landing due to a failure to hold the wings level can cause a ground loop. If the aircraft is a high wing sort the pilot should be shot!
Braking can induce it, but like a wing tip hit, this is due to really bad airmanship! and I accept that both these causes are not the type you had in mind because they should be rare!
The ground loop may be best described as when the aircraft chases its tail like a dog! although a dog does it so much better!
Never done a ground loop full size as only flown taildraggers P2!
I have done plenty with model aircraft (All taildraggers!). With a model I think there is a greater tendancy to overcorrect. Full size, overcorrection is also evident in inexperienced pilots. Even a simple correction on opening the throttle up a trike Cessna shows newbies overdoing correction of a simple tracking swing to a point where the instructor may need to take over due the weak nose gear! - I doubt if this would (or could) ever develope into a ground loop but its shows how any swing needs the correct input.
I'm not sure of physics that start a ground loop only of the tendancy of some aircraft to be prone to it. It shouldn't happen in an airworthy aircraft if the pilot is on the ball!
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How the hell can you folks be crashing spitfires on landings? P51s??? Duuuuuudes, I've NEVER ground-looped a spitfire, EVER. P51s only when I've had major damage (or pilot wound blackouts). They're fairly docile. Even the high-torque 109 series I usually don't ground loop, most I do is ding my prop (often) on heavy rate-of-descent landings.
F4us have some tendency to do this, but maybe I'm just used to it. Before the latest 2.08 patches (before 2.09) the Ta152 was impossible to land 100% of the time for me. Apparently something was fixed, as I can land it now fairly easily.
P.S. Using rudder pedals to take off, most planes require 75%-80% or more rudder deflection in the takeoff. This lessens as speed builds and I notice myself pulling my foot pressure off as I speed up, and I usually have a bit of slip once I'm up and gear up, because by this time I don't need it anymore.
That's not a small amount of rudder. It does SEEM that the forces are muted in this game, but maybe just because we can't feel inertia, swing, shifts, and so forth. I find to actually keep a plane centered on the runway during takeoff (my new favorite thing about rudders is hands-free takeoffs) it takes a lot of rudder input.
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LOL Krusty.
You must be one of the more serious players ;)
When I am tired or simply not paying proper attention I can break a Spits undercart no trouble. Best way I find is to land on the perimeter track with the intent to stop on the re-arm pad, but do not pay attention, land too much off line and try to straighten with a bit too much rudder. Not a ground loop but it still breaks the gear!
Otherwise I can land fine every time if I am paying proper attention! - But hey it's only a game.
Belly landings, occasionally when I have either fogotten gear or not noticed I did not press the button properly, however with my slow landing style I have never had one blow up! - Well none I remember!
But this thread does rather sound like wacky races or a road runner cartoon all filled with crash and bang!
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The cause for the swing tendency on taildraggers is due to the center of gravity being behind the wheels. It's kind of like pushing a grocery cart backwards.
This thread is incredible. I say, "Groundloops can't happen in game by normal means, in other words without using brake or letting wingtip hit the ground." Then a bunch of people say, "No, groundloops are in the game! I know because I hit the brake or let my wing hit the ground the other day, and it groundlooped!" Gah!
Thanks to Guppy and Blagard for being just about the only posters to actually address the issue.
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A ground loop CAN happen in the game when one does/can not control the plane adequately. After/due to a ground loop the plane's wing tip may hit the ground...
A LOT depend on whether one locks the tail wheel or not!!!
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I have found more success in a Spit not taking a three point landing but landing with positive force on the main wheels, cutting throttle and letting the tail settle. It seems to take less rudder input this way as well.
It's those three point landings where I have a tendancy to overcorrect with rudder and get into trouble. I get an initial pull to one side, correct, then get a milder swing back in the opposite direction and it's on that swing back where I overcorrect touching a wing or breaking my gear. I know exactly what the problem is, I don't need to correct the other way, just release a small amount of the rudder I already have applied.
You'd think that since I know exactly where and why it's happening I'd correct it. Of course, a few beverages usually don't help :)
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Originally posted by BlauK
A ground loop CAN happen in the game when one does/can not control the plane adequately. After/due to a ground loop the plane's wing tip may hit the ground...
This is true with what aircraft? I've already said that it can happen with the F-4U. But it should happen with all taildragger airplanes.
Originally posted by BlauK
A LOT depend on whether one locks the tail wheel or not!!!
This is a tangent but an interesting one. There is no tailwheel lock option. You can, of course, pull back on the stick to increase the force on the tailwheel. But regardless of whether this is done or the stick is left swinging free, the groundloops are wrong. As stated, it should happen on any taildragger when the tail is allowed to swing out. In the simulator, the great majority of aircraft do not groundloop when the tail is allowed to swing, even with it is helped with rudder. Again, this is excepting the times when centrifugal force causes the wing to drag, because that is not a prerequisite for a real groundloop.
I just can't believe you people can't see this. Do a little bit of reading on groundloops, maybe ask a real pilot or two (taildragger pilots). If you've got half of a brain, you'll see that proper groundloops are not in the simulator (for the majority of aircraft).
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If it's got a tailwheel I can groundloop it.
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benny, first off, most planes will groundloop if you make em.
secondly, why do you go on, despite the fact people have told you that you're wrong? you're pretty stubborn
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one question for u benny...
at first u "prememtivly defended yourself" but my question is why would u invite people to tear u apart, post nice with confidence (not to much) and people will respect your topic, i see this in a pattern of your posts.
ps i have groundlopped everything from a p51 to a tbm so...
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
why do you go on, despite the fact people have told you that you're wrong? you're pretty stubborn
Because you kiddies are a bunch of gamers with no clue how a real airplane works. Because countless of pilots and flight instructors (plus the F.A.A. and A.O.P.A.) disagree with you - and agree with me.
No, "most" planes in the simulator won't groundloop even if you make them, excepting the mentioned cased of using brake and dragging a wing.
Originally posted by evenhaim
at first u "prememtivly defended yourself" but my question is why would u invite people to tear u apart, post nice with confidence (not to much) and people will respect your topic, i see this in a pattern of your posts.
Because for years I have posted on things in which I have real life flying experience (such as the Pacific Fighters stalls, which I was eventually proven right on), and every time some bumclowns who think that they know all about flying because they play games tell me that the game's fine. Sure enough, it happens again in this thread. I say this is how it is in reality, people say, "No, the game's fine." Well, any real taildragger pilot will tell you that the simulator's wrong here.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Because you kiddies are a bunch of gamers with no clue how a real airplane works. Because countless of pilots and flight instructors (plus the F.A.A. and A.O.P.A.) disagree with you - and agree with me.
kiddies, lol.
you take all of this stuff far too seriously. if you want to reprogram the groundloop system in AH, go ahead, do it and send it to HTC. otherwise, shut up about something that isn't broken at all in the first place, and doesn't matter at all anyway...
who honestly cares if a plane doesn't groundloop exactly as it does in real life? does your life revolve around complaining and trying to 'prove developers and gamers wrong'? bit pathetic if you ask me, and dare i say, childish to boot. to think you're calling us kiddies :rofl
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<---- bows down to major biggles exactly my sentiment
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
shut up about something that isn't broken at all in the first place, and doesn't matter at all anyway...
It is broken. It doesn't matter to you because you're just a gamer. To real taildragger pilots, groundloops are one of the greatest challenges involved with landing and taxiing.
The A.O.P.A. says: "The ground loop is not as common an occurrence with tricycle-gear aircraft, but anyone who has checked out in tailwheels knows all about it or will shortly. The center of gravity is aft of the landing gear, so the aircraft is directionally unstable on the ground. Get sloppy on landing, correct too slowly with rudder as the aircraft starts to swerve, and become a passenger while centrifugal force takes over and slings the tail sideways. With luck and a slow speed, the outboard wing may not contact the ground. The tricycle gear has done wonders in reducing wind-related accidents, and yet the encounters continue."
The F.A.A. says: "Any difference between the direction the airplane is traveling and the direction it is headed will produce a moment about the pivot point of the wheels, and the airplane will tend to swerve. Loss of directional control may lead to an aggravated, uncontrolled, tight turn on the ground, or a ground loop. The combination of inertia acting on the CG and ground friction of the main wheels resisting it during the ground loop may cause the airplane to tip or lean enough for the outside wingtip to contact the ground, and may even impose a sideward force that could collapse the landing gear. The airplane can ground loop late in the after-landing roll because rudder effectiveness decreases with the decreasing flow of air along the rudder surface as the airplane slows. As the airplane speed decreases and the tailwheel has been lowered to the ground, the steerable tailwheel provides more positive directional control."
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I have no trouble groundlooping anything. It's probably your trim settings.
And I've never heard the word groundloop used by real pilots. I guess groundlooping isn't popular these days.
the term "groundlooping" is used a lot in tail dragger training. every real pilot i know, know's what it means.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
It is broken. It doesn't matter to you because you're just a gamer.
The A.O.P.A. says: "The ground loop is not as common an occurrence with tricycle-gear aircraft, but anyone who has checked out in tailwheels knows all about it or will shortly. The center of gravity is aft of the landing gear, so the aircraft is directionally unstable on the ground. Get sloppy on landing, correct too slowly with rudder as the aircraft starts to swerve, and become a passenger while centrifugal force takes over and slings the tail sideways. With luck and a slow speed, the outboard wing may not contact the ground. The tricycle gear has done wonders in reducing wind-related accidents, and yet the encounters continue."
The F.A.A. says: "Any difference between the direction the airplane is traveling and the direction it is headed will produce a moment about the pivot point of the wheels, and the airplane will tend to swerve. Loss of directional control may lead to an aggravated, uncontrolled, tight turn on the ground, or a ground loop. The combination of inertia acting on the CG and ground friction of the main wheels resisting it during the ground loop may cause the airplane to tip or lean enough for the outside wingtip to contact the ground, and may even impose a sideward force that could collapse the landing gear. The airplane can ground loop late in the after-landing roll because rudder effectiveness decreases with the decreasing flow of air along the rudder surface as the airplane slows. As the airplane speed decreases and the tailwheel has been lowered to the ground, the steerable tailwheel provides more positive directional control."
i know all about groundlooping, i know exactly what it is. i just don't care mate, it's not important in a combat sim where you spend 99.99% of your time in the air.
if you want an accurate groundloop in AH, program it for your squealing self, quit b*tchin'. i'm sure HT will use any decent data you can provide, and code for him. put yourself in his position, would you want to waste hours on programming something that will require changes to the already complex physics engine, that isn't important to gameplay, just to please one single freeloader that whines constantly? NO!
now please shut up, you're boring me
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Benny Moore,
take a 109, trim everything to neutral and push throttle to 100%, lean back and enjoy. Many planes do that, but I know for sure the 109 series and the f4u do it when you dont compensate.
Matt
[edit] dont forget to turn OFF combat trim in flight settings, maybe you forgot to do that.
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if you want to fly something more accurate fly flight school sims or fs sims ah2 is a game for people who are looking for a good time and some accuracy r u gonna ace for extreme detail like visible grass or leavs on the runway lol seriously just stick it out and deal with it
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Benny = strega
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lmao hubs
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If ya want to deal with all the things involved with flying:
Preflight
Complex Engine Management
Taxiing
Altitude/Heading holding
Radio Communication
Navigation
Emergencies
go fly an airplane.
Otherwise sit back, relax and have fun.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Benny = strega
i don't care who he is, all i know is that he's irritating. all this moaning and he doesn't even play, he's a freeloader. what nerve, whining about a game you've paid nothing for at all. :rolleyes:
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pwned! by biggles
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Originally posted by Golfer
If ya want to deal with all the things involved with flying:
go fly an airplane.
That is my dream. Unfortuntately for me, and unfortunately for Mr. Biggles here who has to listen to me, it will not be happening. Medical and financial problems conspire to keep me on the ground. I want nothing more in this life than to fly real World War Two fighters, and I had thought until now that many of the people who play this simulator feel the same. I see now that I was wrong.
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and you can benny, this game has the most amazing physics model, and the flight and gun dynamics are unbeaten anywhere, but groundloops?
come on, they're already modelled, perfectly fine if you ask me, but you want them to be as realistic as possible, even though they mean nothing in terms of gameplay, and are not worth working on at all?
a little realism is great fun in a game like this, but too much, then it just becomes checklists, problems and unlimited realism. no one wants to pay to play a game where you need to be totally realistic all the time.
you're striving to have groundloops 100% accurate. if you want 100% accuracy, next time you are shot down, please never takeoff ever again. please uninstall AH, and never post on these forums again, you are now dead.
if that doesn't sound too appealing, then please stop moaning about something as trivial as groundloop physics. you can groundloop any plane in AH, you just don't know how yet. total realism is a bad thing.
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I miss the challenge of avoiding groundloops. It's much like the challenge of avoiding stalls. I agree with you, however, that this simulator has unparalleled physics and flight models. The only thing that can remotely compare is Lock On, and that's for jet fighters. I'll try to stop complaining.
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Originally posted by Keiler
Benny Moore,
take a 109, trim everything to neutral and push throttle to 100%, lean back and enjoy. Many planes do that, but I know for sure the 109 series and the f4u do it when you dont compensate.
Matt
[edit] dont forget to turn OFF combat trim in flight settings, maybe you forgot to do that.
Well now just for kicks tried it in a Mk XIV.
Kicked off auto take off.
Set trims to neutral.
Just to make sure tail wheel wasn't locked , pushed forward on stick.
I advanced the throttle quickly to full mil .
And to my surprise it spun to to the right , dipped left wing , then broke the gear off.
Dang it benny I was relying on you to be accurate . I thought you said there is to no ground loop effect in game.
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
Benny do you ever tire of being wrong?
Or maybe you use the hand holding gamey features that HT has given us.
*I am grateful for those features. I wish to spend my time TnB and not constantly trimming my AC . TY HT:aok *
Ohh try setting trims to neutral and land with auto trim off Its a hoot .:p
Bronk
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I don't know about groundloops but Rocky Road Ice cream is much more delicious now.
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Just for kicks, grab a mildcat and try that. Since the gear is on the fuselage, and not the wings, you can pull both wings off and tear around at speeds up to 175, at which point the wheels come off. You can't roll the thing, it's like an uber jeep.
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Nitpicking inconsequential aspects of somebody else's work is a perfectly legitimate hobby.
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Originally posted by Bronk
And to my surprise it spun to to the right , dipped left wing , then broke the gear off.
Dang it benny I was relying on you to be accurate . I thought you said there is to no ground loop effect in game.
Bronk, you don't understand what a ground loop is. It is not caused by the wing dipping, as was the case in your accident. At any time before you had dipped your wing, you could have stopped the yaw by adding opposite rudder. In a real groundloop, you cannot stop the yaw, even if the wing does not strike the ground. A ground loop is caused by inertia due to the center of gravity being behind the wheels. Once begun, it cannot be stopped. But go on, keep mocking me because I know what a ground loop is and you do not. Keep berating me for requesting that such a thing might be considered in a future incarnation of Aces High. And no, I do not use automatic trim or any other feature that was not available in real warplanes.
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
Benny = strega
HMMMM
Originally posted by Benny Moore
That is my dream. Unfortuntately for me, and unfortunately for Mr. Biggles here who has to listen to me, it will not be happening. Medical and financial problems conspire to keep me on the ground. I want nothing more in this life than to fly real World War Two fighters, and I had thought until now that many of the people who play this simulator feel the same. I see now that I was wrong.
Benny=Voss
:noid :noid :noid
Scorpion bite anyone.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Bronk, you don't understand what a ground loop is. It is not caused by the wing dipping, as was the case in your accident. At any time before you had dipped your wing, you could have stopped the yaw by adding opposite rudder. In a real groundloop, you cannot stop the yaw, even if the wing does not strike the ground. A ground loop is caused by inertia due to the center of gravity being behind the wheels. Once begun, it cannot be stopped. But go on, keep mocking me because I know what a ground loop is and you do not. Keep berating me for requesting that such a thing might be considered in a future incarnation of Aces High. And no, I do not use automatic trim or any other feature that was not available in real warplanes.
The wing dipped because of the spin to the right. AKA ground loop.
If I apply rudder to correct i AVOID the ground loop get it boyo.
Man your stubborn.
If only you were half as smart as you think.
Bronk
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No. A normal groundloop can actually occur without the wingtip touching the ground. Did you know that? Moreover, a real groundloop cannot be controlled with rudder even if the wingtip is not touching the ground. You are pretending that not only is a groundloop caused by a wing dip, but that there is no groundloop without wing dipping. You have no idea what you're talking about.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
No. A normal groundloop can actually occur without the wingtip touching the ground. Did you know that?
yes
Moreover, a real groundloop cannot be controlled with rudder even if the wingtip is not touching the ground. You are pretending that not only is a groundloop caused by a wing dip, but that there is no groundloop without wing dipping.
No . I am stating the wing dips because of the ground loop.
Big difference there big guy.
How stupid do you think people are .
Duuuhhh golly gee mister my wingy thing starting to go to the right . I'll just let her go and see what happens.
Or do you think as soon as a notice a drift i take action to avoid the spin?
Why you don't see many ground loops is because you expect them and take precautions to avoid.
Please feel free to keep posting . This is almost as funny as your 30 mm takes.
Ohh how long you been playing and if it's been a while what previous tags.
Bronk
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Let me put this in as clear wording as possible. If the simulator were correct in its groundloop modelling, the following scenario would be possible. You are travelling down the runway at a fairly slow speed, and you allow your nose to swing several degrees to the left. You compensate with rudder, but it is too late; in spite of your holding full right rudder, the nose continues to swing left until the aircraft has completed a one hundred and eight degree turn, and is now travelling slowly backwards for a few seconds. The wingtip fortunately has not impacted the ground. The wheel struts are plenty stressed, however.
As it is, that scenario is only possible in the simulator with an F-4U Corsair. However, all taildragger aircraft should have this problem to some degree. I understand if people are reluctant to see resources allocated to the modelling of an issue which they think is inconsequential. However, it is inexcusable to claim that the simulator is correct in this regard.
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Numerous airplanes will groundloop. Your statement that it is not possible has no effect whatsoever on the game. I have groundlooped enough cartoon planes to know it is possible, and even had I not done this, I would put more faith in the guy who coaded the game (an actual pilot with actual experience), than some guy sitting at a desk who's never even been in an airplane.
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I've got hours, buddy. Not in a taildragger, and not many, but I do.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
However, it is inexcusable to claim that the simulator is correct in this regard.
:lol Inexcusable...someone needs their prozak refilled
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Bronk is saying that the wheel closest to the direction of travel catches traction (after the inital yaw) and tips the wing into the ground.
There is a tailwheel lock option in the game. IRRC 15 degrees backpressure on the stick locks the tail wheel, and with the wheel locked it is nearly impossible to ground loop.
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Hmm
Isn't the RV8 a taildragger?
Think I'll go with HT on this one . He has a few more hours than you. Ohh and in a taildragger.
Bronk
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Since when has Hitech claimed that the groundloops are correct?
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Since he wrote it that way. I feel he strives to make it the best and most accurate he can.
Or are you a luftwhiner in Ami clothing?
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
Since he wrote it that way. I feel he strives to make it the best and most accurate he can.
That doesn't explain things like the digital ammunition counters on all aircraft. Everyone knows that they're wrong (both because they're digital and because they're on all aircraft). It seems to me that Hitech does a very good job of making the best and most accurate flight models, but is not as greatly concerned about matters that do not directly pertain to flight. Hence the ammunition counters - and hence the easy ground handling.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
I've got hours, buddy. Not in a taildragger, and not many, but I do.
This doesn't count:
(http://www.shopnbu.com/classic-pedal-planes-retro-ride-on-toys/american-retro-airplanes/american-retro-classic-pedal-plane-pretty-in-pink-airplane-ride-on-rear.jpg)
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Man this got ugly and stupid in a hurry. Signing off.
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Benny who am I going to believe.
A. The guy who makes his living in Flight sim/game world .
Or
B. BBS crank who's constantly whining about everything. But backs it up with nothing.
Think I'll go with A .
Cya troll.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Murdr
There is a tailwheel lock option in the game. IRRC 15 degrees backpressure on the stick locks the tail wheel, and with the wheel locked it is nearly impossible to ground loop.
Probably explains why shortly after posting I went to see if the F4u still ground looped and could not get it to!
Habit causes me to have back pressure on thr stick when I open a throttle! - I don't even think about it. Having tried both directions using Rudder to encourage it, all I did was break off the outer wing sections.
Then for a laugh I took it up flew it on rudder and elevator and brought it back down on the main runway (well I ran off to one side and taxied back on!) without breaking any more of it! - Filmed it to as I was expecting a ground loop and had the camera on. Climb rate is very poor and turns are very wide. I think I popped in a notch of flap to help get up. Left the undercart down as I didn't want to upset it!
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Originally posted by scottydawg
Man this got ugly and stupid in a hurry. Signing off.
I dont know, its kinda fun and enertaining in its own way, I'm waiting for Benny to implode..:lol
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metatron!
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Let me put this in as clear wording as possible. If the simulator were correct in its groundloop modelling, the following scenario would be possible. You are travelling down the runway at a fairly slow speed, and you allow your nose to swing several degrees to the left. You compensate with rudder, but it is too late; in spite of your holding full right rudder, the nose continues to swing left until the aircraft has completed a one hundred and eight degree turn, and is now travelling slowly backwards for a few seconds. The wingtip fortunately has not impacted the ground. The wheel struts are plenty stressed, however.
As it is, that scenario is only possible in the simulator with an F-4U Corsair. However, all taildragger aircraft should have this problem to some degree. I understand if people are reluctant to see resources allocated to the modelling of an issue which they think is inconsequential. However, it is inexcusable to claim that the simulator is correct in this regard.
Words are very clear to me, you need help.
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To avoid any tendency to ground loop, get into the habit of three-pointing your landings in all tail-draggers.
Once on the runway, ease back the stick to lock the tailwheel and apply brakes.
No sweat, no drama.....
My regards,
Widewing
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Words are very clear to me, you need help.
What part of the statement you quoted do you disagree with? And what contrary evidence have you to offer? I gave the Federal Aviation Administration's explanation as mine.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
I miss the challenge of avoiding groundloops. It's much like the challenge of avoiding stalls. I agree with you, however, that this simulator has unparalleled physics and flight models. The only thing that can remotely compare is Lock On, and that's for jet fighters. I'll try to stop complaining.
There's not much challenge in avoiding a stall, just keep your IAS up. If thats the big challenge you're fighting a big uphill battle.
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Lucky fella groundlooping his kitfox type thingie:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MAWa9uxtZj4
Then our friendly neighborhood...pilot...twangs his prop on landing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Znx8CjueJqs
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Benny,
there definitely is a control for locking the tail wheel in AH. If you push the the throttle wide open e.g. in the 109 without first pulling once hard on the stick (=locking the tail wheel), you will notice how jumpy its rudder control will be.
With locked tail wheel one can control the rudder during take-off (while tail is still down) much easier than without.
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I didn't really think it was possible in the game, but I actually ground looped a P-47N once after a fast wheelie landing. Put a little rudder in accidentally and I was along for the ride. The wheels never left the ground, and I never scraped a wing, but she went around almost 180 degrees--maybe about 120 or so. It is possible, but I don't have film. Now, everything is 3-point and problem solved. In real life, the P-47 training film actually recommends a ground loop to stop the aircraft if you abort a takeoff or run out of runway. I'll see if I can't replicate the scenario for the camera...
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What part of the statement you quoted do you disagree with? And what contrary evidence have you to offer? I gave the Federal Aviation Administration's explanation as mine.
Ahhh.. so he drags in the authority of the FAA.
Okay, I'll bite.
Where's the source? Let's see what the FAA has to say about it. Or do we have to go find it ourselves in a certain clandestine, conveniently unnamed book? Any website? Article? Journal? Report?
Where did the FAA say what you are saying now?
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
What part of the statement you quoted do you disagree with? And what contrary evidence have you to offer? I gave the Federal Aviation Administration's explanation as mine.
1.) I've NEVER seen you in game.
2.) The FAA didn't have to land on the crappy field conditions the 109's, Spit's, and Hog's did in WWII. Your "statement" has NO RELEVANCE to the "thought of combat field conditions" (i.e. = mud, wet grass, not to mention the Pacific fav. Marston Matting.) So, you can sit here and debate all you want, you are WRONG, and need to arrive at that conclusion.
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I already posted a lengthy quote from the Federal Aviation Administration site. If you actually bothered to read my posts ...
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Last FACTUAL post from me:
Ground loops occur, when the aircraft is moving on the ground -- either taxiing, landing, or during takeoff. Ground loops can damage the undercarriage and wingtips of an aircraft. Several extreme incidents of ground loop have resulted in fatalities.
Ground loops may occur when landing on muddy ground, wet pavement or frozen surfaces especially if there are puddles or patches. They may also occur when an aircraft departs a paved surface, for example after an engine failure on the takeoff roll in a multi-engine aircraft. Another common cause is failure of a tire or wheel brake that causes a loss of directional control. They also commonly occur without outside influence due entirely to pilot error.
This has what I just said "all over it". :aok Good Luck in life.
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No, Moore.
What you posted was about the FAA was how they define what a ground loop is, and the apparent symptoms of it.
"Any difference between the direction the airplane is traveling and the direction it is headed will produce a moment about the pivot point of the wheels, and the airplane will tend to swerve.
Loss of directional control may lead to an aggravated, uncontrolled, tight turn on the ground, or a ground loop. The combination of inertia acting on the CG and ground friction of the main wheels resisting it during the ground loop may cause the airplane to tip or lean enough for the outside wingtip to contact the ground, and may even impose a sideward force that could collapse the landing gear.
Both of above has NOTHING to do with what you are arguing, nor does it have anything to do with your mal-informed attempt to redefine what a "ground loop" is according to your own misunderstanding.
Many people have accurately pointed out that the above phenomena described does happen in this game, and quite frequently so. You think you're the only one who has an actual experience in planes? HT himself is a pilot, he's been in taildraggers, flew a P-51, and not to mention many more pilots both commercial and ex-military careers are playing this game as well. If they ever read the BBS I can bet both my nuts that they'd contradict every word you are saying.
What you contend is that a GL does not exist in AH, which it does, and in order to fabricate your delusion you bring up this peculiar segment of an opinion which goes;
Moreover, a real groundloop cannot be controlled with rudder even if the wingtip is not touching the ground. You are pretending that not only is a groundloop caused by a wing dip, but that there is no groundloop without wing dipping. You have no idea what you're talking about.
At any time before you had dipped your wing, you could have stopped the yaw by adding opposite rudder. In a real groundloop, you cannot stop the yaw, even if the wing does not strike the ground. A ground loop is caused by inertia due to the center of gravity being behind the wheels. Once begun, it cannot be stopped.
Your image of the ground loop, like so many things you've contended over these boards according to your "years of experiencing living as a flight-sim BBS troll", is a false one loosely based on reality, propagated by your own misunderstanding and bigotry.
A ground loop is not a supernatural intervention of the devine. It can be stopped, and most pilots in the game both instinctively and actively take precautions to avoid it, hence its rarity in the game. The motion of a ground loop caused by both friction, torque, CG, and inertia of the plane is a physical one - and it is easily compensated by the use of both rudder and tail wheel locks.
Your "scenario" is a myth you've created inside your mind. This "unstoppable" image of the ground loop is valid only after it has been aggravated enough to cause total instability in the yaw movement of the plane.
So tell me, Moore.
How can a tail dragger plane using low or smooth throttle setting, can just roll a few meters, swerve a few degrees left due to torque, and then just suddenly go into a tight turn by itself? The very premise of a taxiing slowly indicates a low throttle setting - hence low torque.
The only instance where a plane might do what you've absurdly described in your scenario;
You are travelling down the runway at a fairly slow speed, and you allow your nose to swing several degrees to the left. You compensate with rudder, but it is too late; in spite of your holding full right rudder, the nose continues to swing left until the aircraft has completed a one hundred and eight degree turn, and is now travelling slowly backwards for a few seconds.
.. is when a plane is inherently flawed at its design so its level balance is upset to either left or right side, thereby causing the weight to anchor on one of the main gears, and the plane pivots upon it. A recipro plane swerves because of propwash and torque - uncontrolled movement while ground level acceleration aggravates the inertia, and hence the "swerve".
Your mythical image of the "unstoppable ground loop" is a phase in which a plane has already entered into a critical state - of course its unstoppable. However, you are suggesting that a "ground looping" movement exists, where even in its most meager initial stages, is unstoppable from the very beginning.
A crock of BULLSHI*, if I ever saw one.
ps) then again I see a lot of those coming from you lately.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
This is true with what aircraft? I've already said that it can happen with the F-4U. But it should happen with all taildragger airplanes.
I get it, according to you we're supposed to suck.
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Well... I for one am in total agreement. However, ground loops are not my biggest concern. The biggest problem in this SIMULATOR is that the spawn to the runway is totally FUBAR. Any SIMULATOR programmer who knows what he's doing should know that any time this type of instantaneous transportation occurs, a shimmer and sound effect are necessary. For heaven's sake... they even show you how to accomplish this here: Beam me down HTC (http://www.mediacollege.com/video/special-effects/star-trek/transporter/)
Please Skuzzy, don't rule this a hijack (even though it is) as it's blatantly obvious that something is missing from the spawn logic in this SIMULATOR and it really, really needs looked at.
Oh... and for our ground loop aficionado, an official quote on the subject... Simulator vs Game (http://www.wavsite.com/sounds/44722/stripes12.wav)
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When I get shot and lose part of a wing it always gets ripped off in one of two places. HT didn't randomize the wing ripping off correctly.
When I put it down hard I never get a flat tire. In fact I never get tire wear at all. HT didn't model the tire wear correctly.
When I get an oil line shot the oil always covers my canopy exactly the same way. HT didn't model the oil spray correctly.
When I see a tank get blown up it always loses the turret the same way. HT didn't model the explosion correctly.
Wah Wah Wah. It's a game and a damn good one. Get a life.
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Benny Moore: Exactly how many planes have you been in that have been ground looped?
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Originally posted by Alpo
Well... I for one am in total agreement. However, ground loops are not my biggest concern. The biggest problem in this SIMULATOR is that the spawn to the runway is totally FUBAR. Any SIMULATOR programmer who knows what he's doing should know that any time this type of instantaneous transportation occurs, a shimmer and sound effect are necessary. For heaven's sake... they even show you how to accomplish this here: Beam me down HTC (http://www.mediacollege.com/video/special-effects/star-trek/transporter/)
Please Skuzzy, don't rule this a hijack (even though it is) as it's blatantly obvious that something is missing from the spawn logic in this SIMULATOR and it really, really needs looked at.
Oh... and for our ground loop aficionado, an official quote on the subject... Simulator vs Game (http://www.wavsite.com/sounds/44722/stripes12.wav)
You can if you want. Spawn in the hanger and taxi till your 'lil heart's content.
Ht has said this is as much a game as anything.
A game needs to be fun and not hampered down with the minutia of a hard core simulation.
I suppose you want to do a walk around , preflight checklist , warm up , taxi, and wait for clearance also ehh?
Wish all these people would quit whining and play the damn game.
:furious :furious
Bronk
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Bronk: I think you might have missed the tung and cheek in his post.
HiTech
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we need a tongue in cheek smiley.
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Ooops
OK then time for my whine.
HT hasn't put a decent sarcasm emotitard on this bbs .
I keep missing the joke and make an A** of my self.
Please fix this before i do it again . :furious :furious :furious
My apologies to alpo thought he was wanting taxi for take offs.
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
My apologies to alpo thought he was wanting taxi for take offs.
Bronk
:rofl
Obviously you didn't check out the way cool l33t "Beam me down" video link thingy that I'm requesting to be implemented. Customizable spawn sounds... that's the ticket!! :aok
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Originally posted by Alpo
:rofl
Obviously you didn't check out the way cool l33t "Beam me down" video link thingy that I'm requesting to be implemented. Customizable spawn sounds... that's the ticket!! :aok
I did, but unfortunately after being informed I was being a tard .
Once I checked the link I had a good laugh.
Bronk
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You know I have been in the aviation business for roughly 25 years
both military and civil. I have seen tail draggers from Citabrias up to DC-3s
even B-17s takeoff and land and have never witnessed a groundloop.
I'm sure they happen, but they don't seem to be all that common. The
field I work at, Morristown Municipal, has a huge variety of traffic and pilot
skill levels including students.
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Originally posted by Rino
You know I have been in the aviation business for roughly 25 years
both military and civil. I have seen tail draggers from Citabrias up to DC-3s
even B-17s takeoff and land and have never witnessed a groundloop.
I'm sure they happen, but they don't seem to be all that common. The
field I work at, Morristown Municipal, has a huge variety of traffic and pilot
skill levels including students.
I guessing Benny would say " Your neck of the real world is modeled incorrectly . You should post on Cods bbs and asked to have it fixed immediately.".
But thats just a guess .
:D
Bronk
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Agreed! :furious Rino, please refrain from bringing REAL-LIFE experience into this discussion. I'm sure there is a nice table in an aviation nerds bible somewhere quoting the coefficient of tail wheel rotation and drag versus the slip stream effect and the time space continuum which will clearly prove everything Benny has stated is incorrectly modeled in this SIMULATOR.
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What do you do there, Rino? Would've looked you up :cry
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Originally posted by hitech
Benny Moore: Exactly how many planes have you been in that have been ground looped?
Oh Benny, where'd ya go??!
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See Rule #4
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Yes, jump on the bandwagon, gamer.
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See Rule #5
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
I consider any one who is trained to fly a real airplane a real pilot. Are you a real pilot?
Oh christ hub, if your a real pilot I am never going out side again.....
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Originally posted by hitech
Benny Moore: Exactly how many planes have you been in that have been ground looped?
Still waiting for an answer Kur .. erm Benny.
Bronk
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Ok, in response to Bronk, Alpo and Golfer....sorry guys, didn't mean to
bring real life into this :D By the way, HTC has a long way to go in the
realism sector...AH doesn't have whiney rich tards wondering why they
can't fly into Miami during a hurricane...or line guys standing in front of
a weather hold for 20 minutes in the pooring rain till the pilot takes pity
on them.
No lines of people standing at the front counter trying to inquire about
aircraft arrivals knowing nothing about the bird but "Mr Jones" is coming in
about 6 pm :rolleyes:
They also don't model the crews having you pull aircraft in and out of
the hangar during a sleet storm trying to time the de-icing "just right" :)
I for one am grateful that HT doesn't bother with these.:D
Oh, and for Golfer....before I went out on disability for my diabetes
surgery I was/am a Line Supervisor at Signature Flight Support. And before
you say anything, I apologize in advance for our prices and goofy ramp! :rofl
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Originally posted by mussie
Oh christ hub, if your a real pilot I am never going out side again.....
Actually I think Hub would fit right in with some of the pilot/owners I
have met. The airport practice area was right over my house 20 miles west of the field>, and all summer long I can listen to cessna/piper
engines cutting out for simulated engine out. Well hopefully simulated!
The interesting part is that there is no place for them to ditch safely, all
trees, houses, hills and Lake Hopatcong. If they have to ditch in the lake
during the weekend, they're gonna get waffled by some drunk in a pontoon
boat ;)
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Rino: Other things we do not model.
1. Having to get back out of the air plane, just because you left the key in your pocket and can't reach it while in your plane.
2. Having to dispose of other peoples air sick bags. Allthow track IR has that effect on me.
3. Having to get out the jumper cables because some one left the master switch on.
4. Having the plane roll 70 degs when ever you look at the map.
5. The bloody brightness control on the gps, that I never seem to rember how it works when it is all dark and you can't see the display to adjust it in the first place.
Hmm could make this list never ending, man my game must be terrible.
Oh one thing we do model fairly closely is ground handling of a tail wheel plane. But what do I know only have 500 hrs of tail wheel time, and have been in the back seat during a ground loop.
HiTech
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Originally posted by Rino
I was/am a Line Supervisor at Signature Flight Support. And before
you say anything, I apologize in advance for our prices and goofy ramp! :rofl
I don't care about the prices...they go on the company card. Company doesn't care about the prices...they go on the customer card.
The ramp on the other hand...
So what's the deal with your goofy ramp :p
It is a pretty funky chicken. I've been in there twice for stop and drops so no real big deal. We went from Signature IAD to Signature MMU. I was sure to eat my share of cookies at each place to get our moneys worth, however. If you were to look at how we were parked maybe you'd tell us the rhyme or reason for it. It wasn't as bad as Dulles. There (it was my leg..."unfortunately") we had to go in one citation sized hole between a couple Falcons, turn and come back out the same hole. Guy I was flying with said "have at it" though I can assure you he had more confidence in my ability than I did. We lived and I didn't even have to blast the falcons :)
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Originally posted by Golfer
I don't care about the prices...they go on the company card. Company doesn't care about the prices...they go on the customer card.
The ramp on the other hand...
So what's the deal with your goofy ramp :p
It is a pretty funky chicken. I've been in there twice for stop and drops so no real big deal. We went from Signature IAD to Signature MMU. I was sure to eat my share of cookies at each place to get our moneys worth, however. If you were to look at how we were parked maybe you'd tell us the rhyme or reason for it. It wasn't as bad as Dulles. There (it was my leg..."unfortunately") we had to go in one citation sized hole between a couple Falcons, turn and come back out the same hole. Guy I was flying with said "have at it" though I can assure you he had more confidence in my ability than I did. We lived and I didn't even have to blast the falcons :)
Our ramp is a combo deal between the clueless ex-USAF General GM we
had when the new buildings went up and airport management. Apparently
they decided that having the whole ramp actually in front of the building
wasn't nearly challenging enough, so they split the ramp into two small
confined areas. :lol
Think of it as a pilot confidence course, although amazingly we only had
one guy taxi into the drainage ditch in the last 3 years. It gets really
scary at night, but I am hoping that the new light towers on the northside
will help there. I mentioned to management that it gets dark roughly 50%
of every year when we built the dump....but we ran short of money after
scheduling all the company parties during our working hours :rolleyes:
At least you have a Citation...can't remember if it's a 550 or 560 off the
top of my head. We used to have a blast trying to knock over the porta-
potties with Global Expresses during the de-ice ramp construction :D We
only needed 2 more potty kills to be potty aces when they got smart and
bolted it down. area wasn't the smartest place to put that thing!>
As for HT and his list..I can feel your pain brother, but the worst thing
I've seen this year was a Kingair 90 pilot trying to clean the tray lav of
some clown who didn't know how to open it and had Montezuma's
explosive bowel evacuation. Man, that was pure nasty even AFTER we
hosed down the ramp
:confused: :eek:
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My FBO didn't have lav servicing equipment.
I was thankful for that as a line guy :)
I fly all the 500 series aeroplanes. Everything but a C-500...go figure.
Here are some of them. Nothing at MMU, though.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=enCnGm4HtrQ
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Originally posted by hitech
Oh one thing we do model fairly closely is ground handling of a tail wheel plane. But what do I know only have 500 hrs of tail wheel time, and have been in the back seat during a ground loop.
Fair enough ... I concede defeat. I'll take your word for it, as I've never flown or taxied a real taildragger. I still think the game's a tad forgiving, but I'll defer to your superior experience and hold my peace in the future. I also think I owe you an apology. So, I'm sorry for bashing your game. It wasn't my intention. I only want it to be as much like flying a real warbird as possible.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
as much like flying a real warbird as possible.
That's too much work to be fun in my book. I like the premise of this game. Shoot em up, blow em up and fire em up with realism where it counts (flight modeling) and ease of use where you want it (engine management)
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Originally posted by Leslie
In the game ground looping is where you land and spin around sometimes breaking off a wing and ending up off the runway. Happens to me when I come in to land too slow and hit the brakes before locking the tail wheel on the runway. Happened to me a few nights ago in an La-7. Been playing this game 6 years. Still happens sometimes.
Les
That's groundlooping? I land like that every time......:rolleyes:
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Fair enough ... I concede defeat. I'll take your word for it, as I've never flown or taxied a real taildragger. I still think the game's a tad forgiving, but I'll defer to your superior experience and hold my peace in the future. I also think I owe you an apology. So, I'm sorry for bashing your game. It wasn't my intention. I only want it to be as much like flying a real warbird as possible.
"I admit I'm wrong, but you still don't have it right."
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Originally posted by hubsonfire
"I admit I'm wrong, but you still don't have it right."
That's not the case at all. My understanding of the phenomenon has not changed, but I consider Hitech's opinion in this matter to be more important than my own as he has far more experience in the subject than I do. It has nothing to do with his status as game developer, it's about experience. I applied to same principle to Widewing in the P-38 versus Me-109 argument.
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hubsonfire, Yes I am a real pilot 294 hours, taildragger rated.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
That's not the case at all. My understanding of the phenomenon has not changed, but I consider Hitech's opinion in this matter to be more important than my own as he has far more experience in the subject than I do. It has nothing to do with his status as game developer, it's about experience. I applied to same principle to Widewing in the P-38 versus Me-109 argument.
That's exactly the case. You say you're conceding the point, but that HT still doesn't have it right. That's exactly what you're saying.
That's excellent Nick. I brought the issue up with one of my buddies, and sure enough, he has no taxis/takeoffs/landings in a dragger. Strictly trike.
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Originally posted by nick172
hubsonfire, Yes I am a real pilot 294 hours, taildragger rated.
No such thing as a "Tail dragger rating." Next specious statement?
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Originally posted by jigsaw
No such thing as a "Tail dragger rating." Next specious statement?
That's correct, it's a tailwheel endorsement that allows you to consider yourself taildragger rated.
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Hitech,
1. Having to get back out of the air plane, just because you left the key in your pocket and can't reach it while in your plane.
I hate that!!!!
2. Having to dispose of other peoples air sick bags. Allthow track IR has that effect on me.
Once threw one out of the window of a 172 while flying over midland MI, because it was making everyone else sick
3. Having to get out the jumper cables because some one left the master switch on.
Quite a fan in the winter months, I need a new battery.
5. The bloody brightness control on the gps, that I never seem to rember how it works when it is all dark and you can't see the display to adjust it in the first place.
You would think they would make the screen red so it would not screw with your night sight, I put a piece of red plastic over my screen, really helps.
Nick
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Originally posted by FLS
That's correct, it's a tailwheel endorsement that allows you to consider yourself taildragger rated.
You're not nick172. Still waiting for him to reply.
Show me any reg that references a "taildragger rating."
Show me any reg that says you can "consider yourself rated" for anything.
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Not to bring this up again, but has anyone noticed that when any of the aircraft is in auto-takeoff mode, you see a simultaneous application of aileron and rudder to counter torque? I've got quite a bit of tail-dragger time, and i've never been told to use aileron to counteract torque.
Just lotta right rudder.
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Wolfala: Thats just how the auto pilot controls the plane. Any roll in the plane will cause the ailerons to deflect the opposite way. The engine will roll the plane very slightly do to torque.
And btw you are using the very loose definition of "Torque" ,when you apply rudder you are mostly correcting for slip stream at the start of the take off roll.
Engine torque only creates a very very minor yaw effect do to tire friction being greater on one tire vs the other do to the rolling motion of the engine torque.
HiTech
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You should set tire friction to 0 one day, just for fun. I can see a lot of excitement out of that. It'd be quasi realistic, seeing as it's coming into winter now.
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You can bind the left and right brakes. I never once groundlooped once I did this.
Ever.
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jigsaw,
Correct its an endorsement, but I am "rated" to fly a taildragger, Are you even a pilot? if not go play with your computer planes and stop giving me flak.
Nick172
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The only plane I can't land very well is the F4U series. Especially the CHog.
So I just bring her in nice and slow with full flaps and belly land her ;-)
It stops much quicker that way ;-)
Softail
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Originally posted by Softail
The only plane I can't land very well is the F4U series. Especially the CHog.
So I just bring her in nice and slow with full flaps and belly land her ;-)
It stops much quicker that way ;-)
Softail
its easy.. just b4 u land chop throttle and let it roll a little bit then pull up on the joystick to lock the wheels then apply brakes..
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I've ground looped the Mossie more times than I want to think about, both landing and taking off.
I've also ground looped the Spit XIV an awful lot.
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Originally posted by nick172
jigsaw,
Correct its an endorsement, but I am "rated" to fly a taildragger, Are you even a pilot? if not go play with your computer planes and stop giving me flak.
Nick172
You're still not "rated" to fly a tail dragger.
Pilot school 101. There's a difference between endorsement, license, rating, category, class, etc. If you're going to spout off in a thread, have your facts straight and use correct terminology. Don't be a numpty.
I'm I a pilot? Maybe, maybe not. Either way it doesn't change the facts as you stated them. I'm not giving you flak. I'm attempting to correct misinformation.
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I'm taildragger rated. Sure beats saying "endorsed"
After all...I'm sure the word "license" has slipped out of your mouth a time or two instead of certificate. I'll let the man be rated.
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Originally posted by jigsaw
You're not nick172. Still waiting for him to reply.
Show me any reg that references a "taildragger rating."
Show me any reg that says you can "consider yourself rated" for anything.
I'm reminded of my earlier contribution to this thread: Nitpicking inconsequential aspects of somebody else's work is a perfectly legitimate hobby.
I missed the reg that says posts have to exactly match regulations. I did know the part about me not being nick172 but it's always good to be reminded. Perhaps I was wrong to assume that nick172's correct information could be properly expressed in language commonly used by pilots. My correction was tongue in cheek in case you missed that. If you were a pilot you would have recognized his usage. It's slang. It's like when people say "anal-retentive" they don't usually mean it in the clinical sense, it's a slang usage and most people understand what is meant.
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Originally posted by Golfer
After all...I'm sure the word "license" has slipped out of your mouth a time or two instead of certificate.
You'd be wrong. I don't use either.
Originally posted by FLS
I'm reminded of my earlier contribution to this thread: Nitpicking inconsequential aspects of somebody else's work is a perfectly legitimate hobby.
Apparently it's perfectly all right to be wrong about something as long as everyone else who's wrong agrees with you. God forbid someone should try to inject correct information into a topic.
Originally posted by FLS
If you were a pilot you would have recognized his usage.
Funny that I don't recognize his usage. Yes, I did miss the tongue in cheek part of your post. Sorry.
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Originally posted by jigsaw
You'd be wrong. I don't use either.
Well since we're splitting hairs...
What do you use? Pilot Certificate is the "proper term" and I've been guilty of letting license slip out when speaking to the average joe who doesn't know/care about proper speak.
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I'm a poor stupid programmer and didn't even know about the correct term "Certificate".
HiTech
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Originally posted by jigsaw
You're still not "rated" to fly a tail dragger.
Pilot school 101. There's a difference between endorsement, license, rating, category, class, etc. If you're going to spout off in a thread, have your facts straight and use correct terminology. Don't be a numpty.
I'm I a pilot? Maybe, maybe not. Either way it doesn't change the facts as you stated them. I'm not giving you flak. I'm attempting to correct misinformation.
Hoist on your own petard I'd say.
I'm qualified to fly conventional gear aircraft and don't even have a logbook endorsement. One way of expressing it might be to say I'm rated in taildraggers.
BTW, two groundloops.
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Originally posted by Casca
I'm qualified to fly conventional gear aircraft and don't even have a logbook endorsement. One way of expressing it might be to say I'm rated in taildraggers.
Better watch out...there are some (especially on this board) that might say it's impossible ;)
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this is the funniest thread I have seen in a long time!
Nick172 I have a little something you left over here,thought I would return it
as a favor could you please return the water bottle I was rather intimate with and left "somewhere" over Caro one night? :D
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See Rule #4
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Roach on the F4U ladings what i do.
1 get as slow as possible.
2 full flaps
3 reduce rpm to minimal upon touchdown
4 stick back to lock tail wheel
5 brake accordingly
This has all but eliminated my ground loops in the hog.
One thing though at reduces rpm you have less breaking power. ( thanks murdr for showing me this is even modeled.) So try to hit the 1st 1/4 of the strip.
Hope this helps .
Bronk
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How about we kick up about 5 or 10 kts of crosswind and see how well these techniques work out.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
How about we kick up about 5 or 10 kts of crosswind and see how well these techniques work out.
Then i would have to learn a new landing approach wouldn't I.
Nice way to add to the post .
PP on mine but don't post what you think would work better .
you are most defiantly a pillar of the AH community. :rolleyes:
Bronk
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Originally posted by Bronk
Then i would have to learn a new landing approach wouldn't I.
Nice way to add to the post .
PP on mine but don't post what you think would work better .
you are most defiantly a pillar of the AH community. :rolleyes:
Bronk
Here's a tip, find a place on earth that has zero wind conditions where you can try these techniques out. Then go to the rest of the planet - you'll be a better driver having been to the school of crosswinds in a tail dragger.
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Since I wont be piloting a real plane anytime soon.
I'll stick with what works in HTC's cartoon world.
Once HT starts with the cross wind I'll learn, until then.
PP on mine but don't post what you think would work better .
Bronk
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I've been trying to come up with something to say for a little while now that was witty and sharp.
I failed.
Jigsaw, you're more level headed and laid back than this to be nitpicking someone over a word.
Wolf, same to you. You're both are better guys than to jump on someone for what they do in the game. Especially if they put in a helpful tone saying "this works for me in the game."
Laugh at Benny because he's read a few paragraphs and is the worlds expert on groundloops. Laugh at me because after lunch yesterday I had a piece of pepper settle between my front teeth and I spent the day beaming a smile at everyone not noticing until I got home after work.
Lets not fire live rounds at guys for being helpful. Save them for Benny.
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Fair enough Golf - we'll stick to what works in the game. Apologies to all.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Because you kiddies are a bunch of gamers with no clue how a real airplane works.
Who you calling a kiddie?
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Oh, I missed seeing that quote you just reposted silat. Them there sounds like fightin' words ;)
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Traps,
Dang I thought that bottle of pop that I found tasted funny?!?! But i'll forgive ya, when your flying you do what ya gotta do. I did feel bad dropping that bag out over midland though, that would really screw up somebodys day.
Nicholas Montei
Nick172
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
That is my dream. Unfortuntately for me, and unfortunately for Mr. Biggles here who has to listen to me, it will not be happening. Medical and financial problems conspire to keep me on the ground. I want nothing more in this life than to fly real World War Two fighters, and I had thought until now that many of the people who play this simulator feel the same. I see now that I was wrong.
This is a Quakers game Benny, 99% can't even fly a simulator let be dogfight WW2 planes. Log into the MA and you'll find out first hand (be prepared to dodge HO's allot!) :D
Cary on.
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Originally posted by Wolfala
How about we kick up about 5 or 10 kts of crosswind and see how well these techniques work out.
A 5 mph crosswind is generally no problem, unless it is 90 degrees to the runway heading. However, bump it up to 10 mph and things get interesting, especially if flying an F4U. Taking off with a crosswind is usually less daunting than landing with one, at least in my experience.
My son-in-law likes to play AH2 when he visits. So one evening, just for the fun of it, I set a 10 mph crosswind from sea level to 2,000 feet from 135 degrees. He elected to take off in an F4U with the wind from his right-rear quarter (bad idea). He managed to get airborne, but nearly drifted off the runway. He made a left turn and set up for landing. He had a great deal of trouble with the landings. He could get on the runway, but was so crossed up that he ground looped it 4 times out of 5. Getting frustrated, he takes off again. This time he takes my advice and decides to land with the wind at his left-front quarter. Far less drama and no ground loops. He did, however, tend to drift to the edge of the runway. That is something easily countered when you gain some experience. He eventually learned to line up off-line and allow the aircraft to drift to where he wanted it at touchdown with a minimum of side slipping. Needless to say, it takes some practice to master crosswind landings in a taildragger.
There's no doubt in my mind that most of the player base would either ground loop or simply crash if there was a crosswind set-up in the MAs. Over the years, the CMs have set-up cross winds in the AvA (old Combat Theater), and the results were often comical. Most players just landed into the wind on the grass and taxied to a runway. You don't learn much that way, but it is a solution of sorts.
My regards,
Widewing
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Ten knot, eh? I'll do that - and I'll record my first attempt for your amusement and viewing pleasure.
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Because you kiddies are a bunch of gamers with no clue how a real airplane works.
HEY I RESENT THAT! Just cuz i r a kid don't make me not no how a rea aeroplane works.
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Here we are, as promised. I didn't quite groundloop it, but I definitely racked up several dozen dollars worth of tire and I'm sure someone's going to have a word with me about the left landing gear.
I still think this would have gotten a lot uglier if this were real.
[Link] (http://users.adelphia.net/~j.r.engdahl/josh/CROSSW.ahf)
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Here we are, as promised. I didn't quite groundloop it, but I definitely racked up several dozen dollars worth of tire and I'm sure someone's going to have a word with me about the left landing gear.
I still think this would have gotten a lot uglier if this were real.
[Link] (http://users.adelphia.net/~j.r.engdahl/josh/CROSSW.ahf)
The Jug is easier to land with a crosswind than the F4Us. Try the F4Us and be prepared to knock off a wingtip now and then.
My regards,
Widewing
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Right, I've been going at it with the P-40 and a 30 M.P.H. crosswind, and I only manage to land without groundlooping about one time in five. This is almost more fun than dogfighting!
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Originally posted by Widewing
There's no doubt in my mind that most of the player base would either ground loop or simply crash if there was a crosswind set-up in the MAs. Over the years, the CMs have set-up cross winds in the AvA (old Combat Theater), and the results were often comical. Most players just landed into the wind on the grass and taxied to a runway. You don't learn much that way, but it is a solution of sorts.
My regards,
Widewing
I'm amused by thoughts of players attempting to lift off of a carrier while the carrier is turning in the game. A cross wind on a normal airbase runway might have much the same attributes for potential amusement (or player frustration.)
What would happen if we eliminated "auto takeoff" and "stall limiter" as well as added some wind into the simulation? I think it would be absolutely wonderful. I think there are some good fighter sticks that would suddenly be unable to master the art of takeoff and landing.
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If wind was turned on in the MA I'd quit since I wouldn't be able to takeoff or land. Landing with wind is too difficult and too hard for anyone to master and is unfair to players who just want to plug in and play. :cry
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I can't believe this thread is still going.
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Originally posted by Golfer
If wind was turned on in the MA I'd quit since I wouldn't be able to takeoff or land. Landing with wind is too difficult and too hard for anyone to master and is unfair to players who just want to plug in and play. :cry
So, the more like an arcade game, and the less realistic the flight model, the happier you are?
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Originally posted by roach
So, the more like an arcade game, and the less realistic the flight model, the happier you are?
If I want to go fly a real plane, I go fly,
I come here to shoot down cartoon planes with out the hassle of trimming every time I speed up or slow down,worrying about mixture,am I running over or under square? watch the prop overspeed,be sure to avoid running between 2200 and 2350 rpm or prop damage may result! uh!
no thanks :huh
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Originally posted by roach
So, the more like an arcade game, and the less realistic the flight model, the happier you are?
no it's just that flying and landing with a crosswind is so hard and such an unattainable feat for so many that nobody would want to play anymore.
I know I couldn't hack it :cry
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The only plane that ever groundloops on me is the F4U, but I think the Typhoon should be at least as bad, given the historical problems its torque gave to pilots on takeoff and landing. The only way that I have been able to stop the F4U groundloops is to come in real slow with only one notch of flaps left. When I am over the runway, and speed is dropping below 100 mph, I drop the last notch of flaps and wait a sec. after I hit the runway before I apply brakes, pulling back on the stick. 90 percent of the time this solves the problem, but it makes me really vulnerable on final approach. You can't "quick land" the F4U (at least I can't ) on a concrete runway unless I keep gear UP! :lol
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Most of the people in this thread do not, as I suspected, know what a real ground loop is. Ordinarily, a ground loop is not caused by brake use! It is an event can happen with no pilot input. As I said, there are only one or two airplanes that can have this happen in Aces High II.
A ground loop is not caused by a wingtip hitting the ground. It is not necessarily caused by stomping one brake. All it takes, in reality, is letting your taildragger airplane's tail get more than a few degrees off center while on the ground.
Also the cause of most ground loops, The reason the aircraft has a left turning tendency is due to several factors affecting the aircraft. Will only discuss two here.
1). An aircraft with a standard undercarriage, that’s two main wheels and a tail wheel, was and still is called the standard configuration. The propeller itself is in an extremely high angle of attack (AOA). The result is that the prop develops more thrust on the blades downward stroke, which is on the right side of the aircraft (as the pilots sees it from the pilots seat) As you apply power you will need to apply right rudder to compensate for the induced left turning tendency.
2). Gyroscopic precession, That’s pure physics. The propeller which is a spinning mass with the same properties as a gyro. Any force applied to a gyro is transposed 90* to the direction that the force was applied from. Compensated again by ruder and aileron. Aircraft designers also use wash in and wash out of the wing and tail services.
As the aircraft accelerates down the runway use the rudder to maintain the center of the runway. Apply power slowly at first. As the aircraft reaches flying speed, the need for rudder will become less ( because the higher airspeed gives you a more effective rudder) As the aircraft reaches flying speed the wing becomes more effective and helps offset Gyroscopic precession. During the takeoff roll when you are able to move the stike forward to raise the tail . you decrease the high AOA and your need for right rudder is less.
Hope this helps
CFII