Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: Guppy35 on December 19, 2006, 12:57:59 AM
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Forcing the overshoot and rolling in behind em down low :)
Yeah I'm a bit goofy for the 38G. The Spit 16 died too:t
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1166511317_overshoot.jpg)
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i could make so many comments, none of which are bad. But i know youd kick my butt anyday in the DA or MA. So im just gonna tuck my tail between my legs and well, run like a scared kitty!!!
:D :t :noid
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Hey Guppy, come visit me in my server, please?
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I'm no spit expert but it seems to me he should be breaking left and down(unless his E state was signifcantly greater than yours) instead of right and up.* At the very least .. left and up.. not right. Looks like he plays in quickly to your gun solution... at the very least he's saddled.
Forgive me if you disagree... I could be off base as I don't fly the 38 much.. love the plane tho.
*based on the position/direction of your nose.
*sigh* I miss Minnesota.(displaced Edina boy in AZ)
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
I'm no spit expert but it seems to me he should be breaking left and down(unless his E state was signifcantly greater than yours) instead of right and up.* At the very least .. left and up.. not right. Looks like he plays in quickly to your gun solution... at the very least he's saddled.
Forgive me if you disagree... I could be off base as I don't fly the 38 much.. love the plane tho.
*based on the position/direction of your nose.
*sigh* I miss Minnesota.(displaced Edina boy in AZ)
Or the Spit could have started a loop, which would have given the Spit more options.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
Or the Spit could have started a loop, which would have given the Spit more options.
Ya... just about anything but a right break w/ nose up. lol
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Yep.
Even right down couldve worked. Guppy wouldve been then forced to dive inverted for the shot (no time for a 38 to roll), its too low for SplitS.
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My La7 would have broke to try force you to turn and roll ie which ever manouvre sucks more of your e to gain angle.
I assume you are rolling clock wise and applying some right rudder......
Hence my departure would have been left to your initial right roll/break turn, some times rolling clock wise 270 from the snapshot (as I may have ruddered in to get the lead angle on the shot) which will put me nose down mid roll but with a departure angle and e to go vert.
I would not have attempted the snap shot unless I had "exit e" to get me safely vertical. In this situation I would hope to force the stall fighter into the break and then just refused the snap shot holding all my e for a better advantage next pass.
I try to preserve max e on both of the first two passes..... basically I want the stall fighter to sacrifice his e to a point where I see him making e recovery manouvres after a pass.
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Its OK Tilt, we all know it was you in the spit and your just tying to cover yer butt :t
Hey Dan, made a mistake in my G last night. Did you know that that think will climb over 10K !!!:O
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That 38 has too many parts who was the real pilot?:p
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When I read the title, and saw who started the thread, I figured there would be a screenshot of either the plane on the runway, or from the tower, or in a bar. :D
But, it looks like it is a picture of another P38 pilot, Guppy took, while falling to the ground in his chute. :)
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
Its OK Tilt, we all know it was you in the spit and your just tying to cover yer butt :t
Hey Dan, made a mistake in my G last night. Did you know that that think will climb over 10K !!!:O
Never had the pleasure of the dance with dan/corky..........we never seem to meet in the arena for some reason.................
Last time was in an AW scenario called Korea when I seem to remember my Mig being chased halfway across a map by three +Nomad Sabres intent on revenge.................. seem to remember they got it too...:(
always supposed +dan was one of them
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Just guessing here....
But looking at the still shot this is basically some type of a rolling scissor. Guppy's in lag with a pretty nice angle off the tail. I'd guess he's rolling plane counterclockwise {if he's rolling clockwise only god saved him:)}to keep views and vector where he wants them. His lift vector will move faster then the spit can turn and will be well in front of anything the spit does. If the spit goes up its dead. If the spit goes right its dead. If the spit goes neg G its dead. Best bet {IMO} is to roll left or "tuck under" by continuing the clockwise roll and into a nose low left hander. That puts guppy in perfect position but gives the spit best possibility for an overshoot....basically your continuing a rolling scissor and coverting it to a flat scissor to use guppys slower roll against him. The angles off give the 38 the up down and right (IMO)....go left young spitty and die a few seconds later....or get lucky and survive the crossing shot you give or your reverse.
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Actually it's towards the end of a 5 minute fight that started with the Spit bouncing me at 10K and ended on the deck. Since you guys were actually trying to figure it out, I went back and looked again :)
I've slowed it to 146 and he's at 150 and finally I've gotten him out front after a long rolling scissors. He never got enough deflection prior to this to get a shot off to hit me. I got him on a snapshot as he broke hard in front of me to try and throw me back out front.
It was a nail biter, and one of those fights that keeps me coming back hoping for another one.
And yeah it's out of the norm cause I'd usually be falling in pieces :)
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pretty sad on the spits part lol. going left he would have been dead. the only solution for this guy was to pull strait up and do a loop/ horseshoe stall. right over guppy's slow p38g that's what i would have done. or i would have ropped him from that position. guppy would have never been able to follow. but hey that's just me.
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Originally posted by Guppy35
and he's at 150
Spit 16 mixing it down to 150 with a P38:rolleyes:
He was basically out of options............... once you were saddled up.
btw which way were you rolling?
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Originally posted by Tilt
Spit 16 mixing it down to 150 with a P38:rolleyes:
He was basically out of options............... once you were saddled up.
btw which way were you rolling?
Left wing is headed down. I ended up below and behind
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Giddiyup spitty :aok
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Originally posted by DEMONSLAYER
pretty sad on the spits part lol. going left he would have been dead. the only solution for this guy was to pull strait up and do a loop/ horseshoe stall. right over guppy's slow p38g that's what i would have done. or i would have ropped him from that position. guppy would have never been able to follow. but hey that's just me.
I disagree, Corky is inverted. That is time Corky will have to waste, to "right the ship", giving the Spit a few seconds on him. IMO, Corky, while slowing down good, "gave the fight away" by doing that. BUT, the Spit did NOT "take advantage, and probably didn't see it." Therefore, Corky beat him down.
Personally, I'd have looped, Corky probably would have rolled and extended. Just a guess though.
Had the Spit gone right, left, or up. Corky is "for that moment" forced to "extend" or "fight the Spit's fight briefly." But then again, BugsBunny said I suck, so why bother trying to explain it.
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Originally posted by DEMONSLAYER
pretty sad on the spits part lol. going left he would have been dead.
Funny, I see this as about his only option unless he had enough E advantage over the 38 to loop or rope(again to the left). With the 38's nose angled to the right, a move that way would play into a gun solution for the 38.
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what's a horseshoe stall?
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Originally posted by Golfer
what's a horseshoe stall?
It's where you climb straight up, then just as you're about to loose airspeed, pull back a little more. This causes the horseshoe sitting on your dash to fall back and hit you in the head.
Glove
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Originally posted by Gloves
It's where you climb straight up, then just as you're about to loose airspeed, pull back a little more. This causes the horseshoe sitting on your dash to fall back and hit you in the head.
Glove
:lol
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Actually the Spits in a good position. He's totally won the wing orientation battle and almost no matter when he breaks, as long as its pulling the stick back, the P-38 is going to temporarily lose him trying to re-orient to the break. 180 degree rotational difference is obviously optimal as you break under the other pilots nose causing him to at least temporarily lose sight. As we all know "lose sight, lose the fight".
The only potential danger to the Spit is a snapshot on the break but I don't know how much of a spiral or barrel rolling motion was involved here which would make a difference.
I'm also assuming the Spit has enough e to break effectively without stalling.
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In the right hands, spits pwn 38's! It's all about angles!:aok
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Congrats, Guppy! Nice to see Lynch's skin getting a workout!
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Originally posted by DEMONSLAYER
pretty sad on the spits part lol. going left he would have been dead. the only solution for this guy was to pull strait up and do a loop/ horseshoe stall. right over guppy's slow p38g that's what i would have done. or i would have ropped him from that position. guppy would have never been able to follow. but hey that's just me.
The spits going right in a continuation of a rolling scissors...left was his only real chance...up is worse then right...althoug he could tuck under. He simply does not have way past guppy in up, down or right thats not just luck. guppys angle AOT simply takes it away. Guppys 38 is midroll, its coming round faster then you think and spitty has no ability to top out the 38 G....at low speed guppy will eat him up before he gets out of range...if he even can. Even if he sneaks by guppy going right he needs to convert to a spiral climb to have any chance...If he goes left then guppy is forced to either reverse his roll, continue to a vector/lag roll of some kind or convert to a hi yoyo...all of which defeat his current AOT so the spit has guppy on his 6 but has some chance to pull off "some pilot stuff"....
worst move by far is up in any flavor, 2nd worst is right Basically hea a drive by shootee cutting across guppys nose..."down"....at his current angle relative to guppy simply puts him infront of guppy....down left either by rev or vector roll...gives him best bad option and only chance to survive other then flying thru guppys shot...
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Originally posted by humble
worst move by far is up in any flavor, 2nd worst is right Basically hea a drive by shootee cutting across guppys nose..."down"....at his current angle relative to guppy simply puts him infront of guppy....down left either by rev or vector roll...gives him best bad option and only chance to survive other then flying thru guppys shot...
When this pic was snapped, had the Spit started a loop, he will gain on Corky. Corky, would have to complete the roll and then "choose to follow" or "climb turn". Sorry, but the loop would have had the best chance of "turning the tables" for the spit.
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IMHO
Spit: tightening towards right and up into high as possible scissors, that's opposite of P38 lift vector...
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Originally posted by DEMONSLAYER
pretty sad on the spits part lol. going left he would have been dead. the only solution for this guy was to pull strait up and do a loop/ horseshoe stall. right over guppy's slow p38g that's what i would have done. or i would have ropped him from that position. guppy would have never been able to follow. but hey that's just me.
And most likely if the Spitfire had gone vertical as you suggested he would have also died, especially if he tried a "horseshoe" stall as you described.
ack-ack
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Originally posted by Golfer
what's a horseshoe stall?
My guess either a stall on the top end of a High Yo-Yo or Chandelle.
ack-ack
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Or hammerhead to rudder kik????
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Originally posted by Gloves
It's where you climb straight up, then just as you're about to loose airspeed, pull back a little more. This causes the horseshoe sitting on your dash to fall back and hit you in the head.
That sounds like Dave Barry wrote it.
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Originally posted by Masherbrum
When this pic was snapped, had the Spit started a loop, he will gain on Corky. Corky, would have to complete the roll and then "choose to follow" or "climb turn". Sorry, but the loop would have had the best chance of "turning the tables" for the spit.
not at all, corky has to be in a counterclockwise roll. His angle of the tail is somewhere around 45 degrees....if the spit continues up to the right or goes vertical he'll cover those 45 degree's in 2 seconds...longer then it takes for corky to continue his roll....his lift vector is traveling less distance (in rotation) then it took for him to actually kill the spit...so he has a guns solution on any vertical move....just plain physics. Only the range goes up...but I'd guess 300-350 max range shot....if the spit goes nose high another 1/2 (10-15 degrees) and then tranistions that to a vector roll (just pull down thru) he'd cut under corky and gain both extension and angles...the 38 will roll faster then the spit can turn either "up" or to the right....
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I thought it was going be the optometrists office getting their eyes checked since you have to be blind to fly it. :D
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I've seen Guppy/Corky from that angle. Its NOT a good place to be.:lol
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This is the only place for a P 38 :lol
(http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i253/plague_06/109V38copy.jpg)
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Actually the Spits in a good position. He's totally won the wing orientation battle and almost no matter when he breaks, as long as its pulling the stick back, the P-38 is going to temporarily lose him trying to re-orient to the break. 180 degree rotational difference is obviously optimal as you break under the other pilots nose causing him to at least temporarily lose sight. As we all know "lose sight, lose the fight".
The only potential danger to the Spit is a snapshot on the break but I don't know how much of a spiral or barrel rolling motion was involved here which would make a difference.
I'm also assuming the Spit has enough e to break effectively without stalling.
Go right.. Boom, you're dead. Look at the 38's nose.. it's already angled to the right. The fact that his wings aren't level is moot... there will be a decent gun solution there.
Won the wing orientation battle? Ummm how does that defeat a gun solution in this scenario?
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id say left is his worst option a p38G can out flat turn a spit in that position all guppy had to do ( if spit went left) was cut throttle and Finnish his roll by going down and using rudder. that spit should have gone up because he has more speed then guppy by the time guppy finishes his roll he wont have any speed there for the spit should easily rope him come down and make a shot. if guppy extends then he is put in the defence position and guppy is in a 38G so he would be pretty screwed. next time yall get in a yo yo move which is what happened go left and see what happens. the guy will cut throttle and be right on your 6.
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left is the only option....the spit died going right. He's already rolling right....if he pulls up he's dead...if he rolls back and goes pure vertical he's dead. He cant alter the angles and guppys rate of rotatation beats his rate of turn. his best options is a vector roll out and under...if he can squeeze under...otherwise he needs to reverse to left and get out of the rolling scissors and into a flat scissors. He cant use a yoyo from where he is going right and he cant go up and left...basically the only thing he's got to work with is his roll rate...so he needs to get guppy in lag then flat scissor him....if the spit was closer he'd have a chance to go up but guppys got him to far out in front. It looks like guppys 45-60 degrees of the tail...so the spittys got a small chance if he can roll under...if guppy continues his roll in sync...the spitty will gain another 30-45 degrees. worst case the spits got a chance to create a smaller shot window...here by the time he's covered guppys AOT I bet guppy rolled right into a perfect snapshot...if he goes up guppy converts to a true tracking shot in vert...if spit goes left it puts guppy outside...good timing on scissors gives him a harder shot and possibly no shot with some luck...
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
Won the wing orientation battle? Ummm how does that defeat a gun solution in this scenario?
As I said, a 180 degree rotational difference allows you break under the other pilots nose causing him to at least temporarily lose sight. At that point the attacker has to continue his roll to be able to break in the same direction gaining valuable seconds for the Spit who, with the right move, will be on the P-38's six before he recovers visibility.
Again the danger to the Spit is a snapshot as he makes the break across the P-28's nose.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
Again the danger to the Spit is a snapshot as he makes the break across the P-28's nose. [/B]
Yup and at that range, at that speed, with 38 guns... BOOM
At that point the attacker has to continue his roll to be able to break in the same direction
You are talking about the right break. I have been trying to tell you... the 38 is already pointing right! All the 38 has to do is roll left a little bit and he is saddled up and in plane w/ the spitties wings. This is assuming the spit somehow survives a near point blank snapper.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
As I said, a 180 degree rotational difference allows you break under the other pilots nose causing him to at least temporarily lose sight. At that point the attacker has to continue his roll to be able to break in the same direction gaining valuable seconds for the Spit who, with the right move, will be on the P-38's six before he recovers visibility.
Again the danger to the Spit is a snapshot as he makes the break across the P-28's nose.
Looking at the picture the the 38 is already in a lead turn position of 45 degrees +. So its going to take the spit 2+ seconds just to reach the 38's guns. The 38 is thru the "bottom of the rotation so Guppy already has vis at the moment the shot is taken. The spit is above the 38 slightly so he has no "blindspot" to exploit. The 38 is also nose up so he needs time to get his nose under as well. I dont see any way the spitty gets thru (and he didnt)...
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I agree that the Spit has gotten himself into trouble but I have to totally disagree with those who say that a left break is his only way out.
If the Spit breaks left he has to reverse his current rotation and come back ~135 degrees to do so. At the same time the 38 only has to rotate 90 degrees. The Spit gives up valuable seconds and the P-38 will be on his six coming out of the break.
That being the case the Spit has to continue his current rotation and, as I've said, if he breaks across the P-38s nose and survives the snapshot will have gained both time (as the P-38 now has to complete another 180 degrees of rotation in order to break in the same direction) and the advantage of loss of visibility by the P-38.
Like I said the Spits in trouble and surviving the snapshot is a big if but unless he's got enough E to extend he doesn't have any other good options.
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Jeez you guys are serious about this stuff :)
I just thought the picture looked kinda cool. It was one of those moments where you are in the middle of a brawl and you don't even know you are upside down cause you are concentrating so hard on not dying. :)
I'm positive both of us did lots of things wrong in the fight and that the great sticks around here would have ended it far sooner then the 5 minutes it took for this fight to end.
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At the same time the 38 only has to rotate 90 degrees. The Spit gives up valuable seconds and the P-38 will be on his six coming out of the break.
You're wrong. The 38 is pointing off to the right. This means the 38 has to rotate and pull the nose around some, not just rotate, if the spit goes left. The latter will give the spit valuable time to separate or get clear of a gun solution. You are simply wrong.
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Well if you guys want to see how it played out and all we did wrong. Have at it :)
I was flying on my late son's account, on one of those nights where I wasn't feeling like being sociable, hence the different ID.
http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/169_1166635829_pitzerghstridr.ahf
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
I agree that the Spit has gotten himself into trouble but I have to totally disagree with those who say that a left break is his only way out.
If the Spit breaks left he has to reverse his current rotation and come back ~135 degrees to do so. At the same time the 38 only has to rotate 90 degrees. The Spit gives up valuable seconds and the P-38 will be on his six coming out of the break.
That being the case the Spit has to continue his current rotation and, as I've said, if he breaks across the P-38s nose and survives the snapshot will have gained both time (as the P-38 now has to complete another 180 degrees of rotation in order to break in the same direction) and the advantage of loss of visibility by the P-38.
Like I said the Spits in trouble and surviving the snapshot is a big if but unless he's got enough E to extend he doesn't have any other good options.
The problem here is that it takes the spit to much time flying in front of guppy going left to right...if he goes left he's putting guppy outside his turn ... he's in a world of hurt...but can make a play. As it sits (havent watched clip yet)) I'd guess guppys got a nice shot set up...
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(http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/guppy.jpg)
Like I said above its a drive by...not much I could see spit could do to avoid it.
I clipped about 15-20 sec from fight earlier....this is basically flat scissors that leads to spit "escaping" out the back door. This is basically what I was talking about...if he continues his break left instead of reversing and then initiates flat scissors he can do same as clip again....rolling scissors just gonna get him killed...again.
film clip (http://www.az-dsl.com/snaphook/twistystuff.ahf)
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Originally posted by DEMONSLAYER
that spit should have gone up because he has more speed then guppy by the time guppy finishes his roll he wont have any speed there for the spit should easily rope him come down and make a shot.
with only a +4mph IAS advantage the Spitfire is not going to able to use the vertical against the P-38G and expect to survive let alone rope the Lightning.
ack-ack
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From that picture the Spit has no options. He's dead.
I haven't seen the clip. I'm at work and won't get a chance until late night at least.
Looking back at the first picture though, not only did the P-38 only have to rotate 90 degrees to the Spits 135 degrees, he also didn't have to reverse his rotation which the Spit would have had to do in a left break making a left break option even worse for the Spit.
You are corrrect however that the Spit would have been outside the 38's turn radius. That actually makes the situation worse for the Spit as the 38 gains a lead solution.
Like I've said, the Spit's only hope if he couldn't extend is just what we see in this last picture. He has to break across the 38's nose and pray.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
From that picture the Spit has no options. He's dead.
he also didn't have to reverse his rotation which the Spit would have had to do in a left break making a left break option even worse for the Spit.
Like I've said, the Spit's only hope if he couldn't extend is just what we see in this last picture. He has to break across the 38's nose and pray.
To me and some others left and down in hopes of getting even a little separation is the spit's only hope.( a slim one).
At the risk of sounding harsh, maybe that's why your fighter numbers(no, not just your K/d) are what they are. You aren't seeing the same things other people are. You seem so unwilling to change so go ahead and keep getting 1 kill per sortie at 3-4 an hour... experten.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
keep getting 1 kill per sortie at 3-4 an hour... experten.
That's mostly because I'd rather spend my time looking for a good one on one or challenging myself in an outnumbered situation than joining the hoard.
It's also because I usually fly a Spit and the ammo load-out isn't exactly generous.
In defensive situations I also take off one field back so I arrive at the same alt as the attackers rather than waiting to be picked from above which also adds extra flight time.
If I joined the hoards and vulched or cherry-picked I'd have better numbers. I just don't find that to be that entertaining.
I've never claimed to be an expert. I gave my take on the situation and you started with the insults. I've remained calm and continued to try to explain my rationalle. It's really OK if we disagree. Thats all it is, a disagreement.
Actually, it's really hard to make any sort of judgement from a single still picture.
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Originally posted by SteveBailey
At the risk of sounding harsh, maybe that's why your fighter numbers(no, not just your K/d) are what they are. You aren't seeing the same things other people are. You seem so unwilling to change so go ahead and keep getting 1 kill per sortie at 3-4 an hour... experten.
They were seeing otherwise because Guppy35 said they were in "rolling" scissors which would mean they were rolling in the same direction ie "to the right", judging by the spit position.
In that case tightening turn to the right and up would be the right way to reversal.
In any case, under assumption of equal skill, spit should never end with P-38 on it's tail.
Opinions were based on information provided and situation interpreted as such, so I don't see why to bellitle others for see it differently.
Keep in mind that we all cannot be as skilled as you are, so forgive us.
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You're right, Eagl. To each his own.
I apologize.
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Accepted
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Thank you, you are very gracious. Now, please proceed to Lord Fletcher's and bill me for the first round or two.
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Accepted but only if you'll meet me there to share those first couple of rounds. The next couple are on me.
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I'd love to. I'm a displaced Edina boy living in AZ. I miss MN
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(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/856_1166683345_gay.gif)
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Originally posted by Golfer
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/856_1166683345_gay.gif)
Sorry to dispell your assumption.