Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: meddog on December 19, 2006, 05:48:23 PM
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Im looking for a trainer to help teach me the following:
1. fly the P51 and F6F
2. learn advanced ACM
3. teach me to think ahead instead of reacting to what the other guy does
4. how to force over shoots
5. judging opponents E status
6. gauging when opponent has a firing angle and when he doesnt
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Hi Medd,
<--not a triainer obviously , but I would spend some time with you i the DA or TA flying the ponies and F6F's. I sukk in em but maybe we can work on em at the same time a lil bit.
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Originally posted by meddog
Im looking for a trainer to help teach me the following:
1. fly the P51 and F6F
2. learn advanced ACM
3. teach me to think ahead instead of reacting to what the other guy does
4. how to force over shoots
5. judging opponents E status
6. gauging when opponent has a firing angle and when he doesnt
Points three, five, and six cannot be taught. They come only with time and experience. I've been flying aerial combat simulators for about seven years in all, and I still am often unable to accurately judge the energy state of an opponent. Unfortunately, I am exceptionally good at gauging exactly when the opponent has a firing solution.
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Yes ......they can be taught. That, however does not mean that the student will "Learn" the lesson.
Just FWIW..... point 3 is exactly what you should be doing. maybe you are just apporaching it the wrong way. I am and always have been a reactive pilot.
Dave
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Originally posted by Benny Moore
Points three, five, and six cannot be taught. They come only with time and experience. I've been flying aerial combat simulators for about seven years in all, and I still am often unable to accurately judge the energy state of an opponent. Unfortunately, I am exceptionally good at gauging exactly when the opponent has a firing solution.
wrong again benny...
they come with experience to a degree, yes, but that doesn't mean that that experience can't be gained faster with the right tips and teaching.
meddog, i would be very happy to help you train, although unfortunately i leave for the holidays tomorrow and am not back until after new years. when are you available? i might be able to find time for a session before the 21st :)
if not i'll catch you in 2007 some time :)
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Originally posted by Nomak
Yes ......they can be taught. That, however does not mean that the student will "Learn" the lesson.
Just FWIW..... point 3 is exactly what you should be doing. maybe you are just apporaching it the wrong way. I am and always have been a reactive pilot.
Dave
yes, but you should be thinking ahead of yourself in order to react to him and gain a gun solution more easily ;)
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If you "React" correctly there is no need to think ahead. The guns soulition will come all by itself.
Then again.... What do I know :(
Dave ;)
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Originally posted by Nomak
If you "React" correctly there is no need to think ahead. The guns soulition will come all by itself.
Then again.... What do I know :(
Dave ;)
:D :p ya big dweeb :lol
i'd call what you're talking about thinking ahead, but i guess you're right, it's reacting to his energy state and plane of motion and maneuvering for a shot...
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"teach me to think ahead instead of reacting to what the other guy does"
That's easy.
Think aggressive. Always be looking to get on his 6 or get your own gun solution. After you get into this mentality the "being 2 steps ahead" mentality comes naturally.
Will you always win?
Of course not...but being in the fighter pilot state of mind is the first step. Even your DEFENSIVE moves should be to gain you the advantage and get the firing solution you so desire...be it forcing the over shoot or giving him/her a bad angle so that you can get the reverse and get the shot off.
A lot of my kills come from getting a reverse on the bad guy and getting a quick shot.
Also look for the tell-tale telegraph signals...if he's extending a little bit did he drop a wing ever so slightly? Or if you have the bounce did he wobble in a certain direction? These can help you get that split second advantage of already moving in the direction that he's going to be heading when he makes his move. Your vets in here aint gonna give you those...but some folks do..so keep a sharp eye out.
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btw, is there any time tomorrow that you might be able to join me in the TA for 30 mins or so for a rumble? airvent has been doing a lot of training with me, and i jump at the chance to go a few rounds with any uber ace i can find :)
any chance you could be online around 7pm est? i can push a bit later if you can't make 7, but t starts getting quite late :)
thanks mak
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
btw, is there any time tomorrow that you might be able to join me in the TA for 30 mins or so for a rumble? airvent has been doing a lot of training with me, and i jump at the chance to go a few rounds with any uber ace i can find :)
any chance you could be online around 7pm est? i can push a bit later if you can't make 7, but t starts getting quite late :)
thanks mak
I am literally without a monitor right now bro. On my wifes machine right now. I orderd a 19" widescreen Samsung from Newegg about 3 days ago. I posted about it in Hardware and Software actually. Hopefully it will be here tomorrow, although I am not going to hold my breath. I got the cheap shipping.
You are working with Airvent (who will always be Bovidae to me) who is to be totally honest on about the same skill platform that I am. When Bovi and myself duel we almost always go 50/50. I doubt I will offer anything new or exciting over what he does. Just FWIW.
I will be happy to DA with you...... I need my new monitor first though. I will look you up for sure after the first of the year.
Dave
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Originally posted by Nomak
If you "React" correctly there is no need to think ahead. The guns soulition will come all by itself.
Then again.... What do I know :(
Dave ;)
Im with Nomak on this.. Ive always been taught that being reactionary rather than guessing or thinking ahead was better.. ive actually have film of me and batfink discussing this on film.. he was wondering why i kept beating him on the merge.. and thought i was guessing right.. i told him no i was reacting to what he was doing and taking action.. if u guess or think ahead of what u think the opponent is doing its kind of like 50/50.. what if u guess wrong? So i never try to think what the other player is doing and just worry about what im doing and react to what he does..
Found the film from finks perspective>>> FILM (http://www.freeroleentertainment.com/ownedbyTW.ahf)
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Originally posted by Nomak
I doubt I will offer anything new or exciting over what he does. Just FWIW.
You're way better at teaching. I've seen you once explaining stuff in a sentence I couldn't get into words in a year.
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Originally posted by 2bighorn
You're way better at teaching. I've seen you once explaining stuff in a sentence I couldn't get into words in a year.
my arse!
you taught me how to kill on the merge and win a slow scissors, and how to use the throttle effectively in about an hour, and then spent a few more hours perfecting it with me. i haven't learned anything that fast EVER
i would definitely value some stick time with nomak though...
perhaps in the new year :)
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
my arse!
you taught me how to kill on the merge and win a slow scissors, and how to use the throttle effectively in about an hour, and then spent a few more hours perfecting it with me. i haven't learned anything that fast EVER
i would definitely value some stick time with nomak though...
perhaps in the new year :)
So you really have no need for a trainer then.
What exactly are you looking for? Not trying to be rude. I am just trying to understand whats going on here.
Dave
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Originally posted by Nomak
So you really have no need for a trainer then.
What exactly are you looking for? Not trying to be rude. I am just trying to understand whats going on here.
Dave
i don't need a trainer, more someone like yourself who can really help me fine tune my skills and teach me advanced ACM. i have pretty much everything down, but i still can't beat vent, although i'd like to think i'm getting a bit closer :), and i heard you were one of the best, so i thought it would be a great opportunity to spend an hour with you getting a few tips here and there, as well as any help and training you could give me :)
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F6Fs :noid
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2. learn advanced ACM
I dont really know that there is such a thing as "advanced" ACM. If you look at all the clips available i'd guess less then 1% have anything really unique. Mostly its fairly easily repeatable stuff....its timing, execution and view of the con that make the biggest difference.
3. teach me to think ahead instead of reacting to what the other guy does
All the really good sticks are reactive pilots. They kill the guys who are thinking "ahead". The ability to adjust on the fly to subtle changes in position is what seperates the really good sticks from the rest of us.
4. how to force over shoots
Overshoots are a combination of "proper" ACM and reactive flying. Techncially its not possible to "force" an overshoot. You actually invite an overshoot and the attacking player either accepts or rejects it. The better your oponent the harder it is to create. In the end any guns solution pressed to it maximum generates a strong possibility of an overshoot (not 100%)...if the attack is successful the player flies thru the wreckage...if not then an overshoot occurs. The higher the differential E state the greater potential for an overshoot. In a perfect endgame the attacker has worn the bogie down to the point he cant manuever enough to avoid a tracking shot but the attacker is slow enough to comfortable maintain proper positioning behind the target.
5. judging opponents E status
Never a sure thing but you can get pretty good....1st key is knowing your E state....then watching the con thru the merge. The harder he pulls the more E he burns. I think more in terms of being positive or negative E then trying to guess bogies E state. Its pretty easy to tell if he has more E then you or not...
6. gauging when opponent has a firing angle and when he doesnt
If you see holes in your plane he has a firing angle. I'm probably one of the hardest guys to hit and damage. If you look at any of my clips you'll often see/hear rounds land with little or no damage. This comes from flying alot of 'target drone" as a trainer. The key is actually seeing the guy shooting...you'll get a feel for the angles that work. This is really the interaction of 2, 3 & 5 to "create" #4.
If you position yourself correctly (in a negative E situation) and then react correctly to his moves and judge his E state and firing position correctly you create a situation where he cant convert his setup to a successful shot and his "miss" creates your overshoot.
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Originally posted by Nomak
I am literally without a monitor right now bro.
You do not need a monitor.
Ill call you on the phone and let you know when you need to turn ;).
meddog, you can just come by the training arena and check if a Trainer is online and available. If you prefer to schedule a fixed date, its best to use our online form on the trainer homepage: http://www.netaces.org/trainers/requestform/requestform.html
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Originally posted by Schatzi
You do not need a monitor.
Ill call you on the phone and let you know when you need to turn ;).
I don't care who you are Thats funny right thar! :rofl :rofl
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P51 D :cool:
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Originally posted by Nomak
If you "React" correctly there is no need to think ahead. The guns soulition will come all by itself.
Then again.... What do I know :(
Dave ;)
This is a really interesting discussion point...and I think the answer depends partly on "learning style" and partly on skill level.
Recently read a fascinating article about the neurologic basis of "grand master" level experts. For the true expert (like you, Nomak) past experience and learning get bundled into larger chunks of information...so it seems very instinctual. For less experienced folks, each individual step has to be processed.
For example, think about the high yoyo. For a true novice, each stick movement needs to be processed..."roll slightly, pull back, reach peak, roll, nose down". With time, those steps get combined into a single chunk of data...the "yoyo maneuver." At this intermediate stage, the pilot sees the sitaution develop, and more or less says "time for a yoyo." Its one piece of information, a single maneuver instead of steps. That makes it much faster to run, and more effective.
The expert just knows what to do. There isnt even a single thought...except maybe "Oh, no you dont" or [cue Vader} "I have you now..."
I've been intrigued with how learning theory applies to ah...will probably put together a post this week.
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Originally posted by Major Biggles
i don't need a trainer, more someone like yourself who can really help me fine tune my skills and teach me advanced ACM. i have pretty much everything down, but i still can't beat vent, although i'd like to think i'm getting a bit closer :), and i heard you were one of the best, so i thought it would be a great opportunity to spend an hour with you getting a few tips here and there, as well as any help and training you could give me :)
I appoligize. I had a couple to many Jack n'cokes the other night and was a bit arguementative.
I wont lie..... the better a player is the harder it is to help them improve. All I can say is I will do my best to help you.
My new Samsung has arrived ;-)
I probably wont be up and around till after Christmas. I will shoot you a PM and we can get together.
Dave
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Originally posted by meddog
Im looking for a trainer to help teach me the following:
1. fly the P51 and F6F
2. learn advanced ACM
3. teach me to think ahead instead of reacting to what the other guy does
4. how to force over shoots
5. judging opponents E status
6. gauging when opponent has a firing angle and when he doesnt
reply to #6.
If you hear pings somethings wrong!!!:rofl :lol :O
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Originally posted by meddog
Im looking for a trainer to help teach me the following:
1. fly the P51 and F6F
2. learn advanced ACM
3. teach me to think ahead instead of reacting to what the other guy does
4. how to force over shoots
5. judging opponents E status
6. gauging when opponent has a firing angle and when he doesnt
Just throwing in a differing opinion here. I disagree somewhat on the reacting point. I had a guy come in the TA months ago with a very solid grasp of ACM, and dueled around with him for quite awhile. I kept getting his 6 after several merges. When he asked I explained why. What it came down to was that at some point I *knew* exactly where his position would be 1/2 to a full turn ahead of time, and guided my plane to create a position to exploit what I *knew* was comming. That is planning ahead, and creating a position rather than following your opponent around.
To be able to make the most of that, you need to be able to know various methods of forcing an overshoot. If you are practiced at that, then you *know* what the positioning of an overshoot looks like from start to finish.
If you *know* what the positioning looks like throughout an overshooting attempt (say a standard evasive reversal), then you can use that knowlege on the fly. When you do that you're getting into what I define as advanced ACM.
So it works like this. You know what the angles and positioning look like during an overshoot. At some point in a fight you realise that "hey! if I guide my plane over here, that would be pretty close to the same position as in the middle of that overshoot maneuver I know". So instead of trying to "out turn" or get a "nose on" angle, you maneuver to "create" a position that you know from experience will lead to your advantage.
So in my mind 2,3, & 4 are prerequisite to each other.
Just so you know, we've stopped taking scheduled training sessions until after the new year, due to the busy holiday schedule. But if you catch one of us in the TA before hand, just get our attention, we may be able to fit in a pick-up session if we are not busy helping others at the time.
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Originally posted by Simaril
The expert just knows what to do. There isnt even a single thought...except maybe "Oh, no you dont" or [cue Vader} "I have you now..."
I've been intrigued with how learning theory applies to ah...will probably put together a post this week.
Very true. In fact until I started as a trainer in AW, I never gave a thought to what I was doing...I just *knew* where I need to guide my plane to next for a given scenerio.
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Not to be argumentative but does anyone actually think that all the Military Air Forces of the World DONT teach their pilots Basic Flight Skills and Advanced Comabt Maneuvers? Hasn't anyone ever heard of Red Flag or Top Gun? Does anyone who flies here and have any interest in dogfighting not know the reason why those schools were started.
If you're not sure why it's because the dogfighting skills our American Pilots went down the tubes about the same time some rocket scientist decided Air to Air Missles were it and guns in jets wouldn't be needed anymore.
Do you honestly think it was because they were taught to react to a situation iso set up the situation to their advantage? I hate to say it but you really believe that then you are only playing checkers in a chess game and plan on taking off more than the guy playing chess.
Hope this helps.
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Originally posted by Murdr
I *knew* exactly where his position would be 1/2 to a full turn ahead of time, and guided my plane to create a position to exploit what I *knew* was comming. That is planning ahead, and creating a position rather than following your opponent around.
I agree with you 110% in that post, people underestimate the importance of anticipation in this game.
The guy could do the most unbelieveable bit of flying in order to try and lose you, but if you anticipate it - it won't matter because you are still going to kill him.
Works the same on the defensive, if you know where your opponents are and what they are going to do, then you can start to react to their attacks before they commence them.
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Originally posted by DamnedRen
Not to be argumentative but does anyone actually think that all the Military Air Forces of the World DONT teach their pilots Basic Flight Skills and Advanced Comabt Maneuvers? Hasn't anyone ever heard of Red Flag or Top Gun? Does anyone who flies here and have any interest in dogfighting not know the reason why those schools were started.
......
Ren,
I think you misunderstood the entire point of the post. Re-read it....
Expert knowledge DOES come through intensive learning and training. For most of the history of air combat, though, the traiining available was rudimentary. Pilots like Gabreski and Rickenbacker and Bong took the rudiments they WERE taught, added their own skills (like race car driving or hunting) -- and learned veeerrry well from their experiences.
After all, the odds of survival were WORST for pilots who only had the training to fall back on.
All this shows that guys like Murdr can very possibly learn their way instinctually.
For the majority, for guys like me, training is indispensable.
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I could help you with training with the ponie, and I could teach you ACM. I know I am a jounier member, but i caught on quick. PM me whenever you want. If you want to train, PM me before you go and meet me in a H2H arena.
:aok
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Originally posted by Simaril
Ren,
I think you misunderstood the entire point of the post. Re-read it...
[/B]
Nope, I didn't misread it.
Guys like Boelcke were some of the first to establish some sort of fighting procedures and put it into a set of basic rules of engagement. They were somewhat primative but if you followed them and the dude in the enemy plane didn't know about them you had a durn fine chance of killing him.
Guys like Richtofen were students of Boelcke and took those basic procedures and expanded on them as he gained experience. For example, the immelman probably happened because he dived on some poor slob, from out of the sun, missed and figured he had the speed, why not go up? He did and when he got up on top he rolled level to see what the poor slob was doing. Hey! This works!!! Let me try again since the dude below is trying to climb to me but real slow. I can dive in but if I miss I can go back up and do it again!!
Enter Germany who got to practie dogfighting in a civil war in Spain. They are fighting in a superior plane (the 109) agasint older stufff and again expand on the the rules they learned from earlier wars. Think about it guys like Hartman learned alot because he had a much better plane than many of his enemy's (readd...Russian planes of the time were kinda weak). He used tactics designed to maximize his planes strengths against his opponents weaknesses. Why do you think all the air forces of that era were always trying to get their hands on enemy planes? So they could compare the diffferences so they could be put to use tactically.
Move into more modern times....Korea...thinks spies. America was using F4's and some new jets over there. Imagine the shock when a mig15 showed on the scene. Hmmm, how do you fight one? by "reacting" to his moves? When he can turn inside you? Wait...you didn't know that until you died...or by some stroke of luck dived away and ran. Expect there was one important factor left out. Many of our pilots were WW2 aces. They alreadyd learned tactics and when they walked into something didn't they fell back on training. New planes came out and the tactics and knowledge they carried with them into the new planes allowed them to win the air battles of the day. They didn't react frm instinct they saw the setup and used tactics to establish dominance or bug as required. It was learned from the life and deaths of other pilots who passed on their knowledge.
I could get real deep in discussion but the issue here is:
This ain't RL so you get as many chances as you want to try anything you want.
The differences between reacting to the other guy and not is knowing why you are doing what you end up doing. Not that you happened to be able to do. But the real reasons why it works that way.
Think about this....
you are in a flight sim which matches differences in performance between planes. Wow!!!
That means you get to use those differences in a fight to your benefit. FYI, when I was learning my trainer taught me the first rule was make a spread sheet (yeah old stuff, huh? :). He said write down each plane type. note its turning abillty, climbs, zooms (frontal mass), roll, speeds, guns, fuel loadouts, etc. Study the differences. If you're not sure of it get in the plane and fly it. Fly every single plane there is. GO up against differrent planes and put the information you glean to good use.
Now tactically set up the fight they way you want it to go. It if begins falling part know when to get out. Use your differences knowledge to win the day.
More on tactics. You can set up a fight to make the guy what you want him to do. In other words you make the setup to the fight have a predictical outcome. You know what you want the guy to do and you get him to do it. If he doesn't happen to follow your plan who ever said you have to stay in the fight? Extend and go for a reset of the fight. There is more than one way to setup a fight. If he doesn't like your first setup use another one on him.
So making a tactical decision to set a guy up at the beginning of the fight is a far cry from reacting to a situation. Furthermore an instantaneuos rection to being jumped when caught unware is merely a trained response to stay alive. Guess what? It's reacting as you call it but it can be a trained reaction designed to get you past the attack. After the pass you begin making tactical decisions on setting the guy up.
The real issue is learning from scratch. The new guy needs to setup views, understand how to use them, learn about lift vector, 3-9 lines, rudder usage, deflection, lead tun, types of pursuit, unloading, ttypes of drag and how they affect the fight, basic flight skills, advanced flight skills, combat flight skills....the list goes on and on. If you miss something it means you might not know why they guy is able to do what he is doing. If you don't know why....you see a lot of the inside of the tower.
USMeddog knows how to set someone up so I'm still haven't figured out what he's really asking for. I sense he's just hit a learning plateau and needs a push up over the minor hurdle to begin moving forward again. But only he can elaborate.
Hope this helps.
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Originally posted by Simaril
This is a really interesting discussion point...and I think the answer depends partly on "learning style" and partly on skill level.
Recently read a fascinating article about the neurologic basis of "grand master" level experts. For the true expert (like you, Nomak) past experience and learning get bundled into larger chunks of information...so it seems very instinctual. For less experienced folks, each individual step has to be processed.
For example, think about the high yoyo. For a true novice, each stick movement needs to be processed..."roll slightly, pull back, reach peak, roll, nose down". With time, those steps get combined into a single chunk of data...the "yoyo maneuver." At this intermediate stage, the pilot sees the sitaution develop, and more or less says "time for a yoyo." Its one piece of information, a single maneuver instead of steps. That makes it much faster to run, and more effective.
The expert just knows what to do. There isnt even a single thought...except maybe "Oh, no you dont" or [cue Vader} "I have you now..."
I've been intrigued with how learning theory applies to ah...will probably put together a post this week.
That's VERY interesting Sim... because I was thinking about that the other day. I'm a learner who has to process the information in exactly the way you stated. In response to 'how do I do a high yo yo' I really need to hear do 'throttle here, stick there, rudder there, and so on' then I have to practice them until they are second nature. The film by batfink was awsome and I'll be working on that move as soon as I get out of the shower.
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Dicho, have you seen this lesson package? (http://trainers.hitechcreations.com/files/murdr/evarevall.zip)
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no sir ...
but it's downloaded now :)
Thank you