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General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Stoney74 on December 20, 2006, 12:02:00 AM

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Stoney74 on December 20, 2006, 12:02:00 AM

Just curious if someone can explain to me why P-47N has an ENY of 5 and the P-51D has an ENY of 8.  Seems to me it should be the opposite or at least the same?

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: zorstorer on December 20, 2006, 12:18:20 AM

ENY's seem to be random within a range....

Look at the 190's


The F8 has a LOWER eny than the A8???

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Krusty on December 20, 2006, 12:44:27 AM

The P47N can fly forever on internal gas, is a mighty juggernaught, has 8x50cal, can carry 2,500lbs of bombs and 10 rockets at the same time, and 3,400 rounds of 50cal. At altitude very few planes can beat its performance.

Maybe all of these facts plus the high-powered engine make it more valuable than the pony?

Then again, not too long ago pony was 5 ENY.

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Stoney74 on December 20, 2006, 12:55:29 AM

I thought the basis of eny was partly based on plane performance with a modifier for total use and kill/death ratio of past tours.  P-51D blows away the P-47N for use and k/d ratio at least the last time I checked.

I agree Krusty, its a beast of a plane, and certainly capable.  I fly Jugs most of the time anyway, but it still requires more discipline to fly correctly than a Pony, at least IMHO...

And, if the "flying dump truck" factor is important, shouldn't they just lower the OBJ rating and not the ENY?  I thought that was one of the reasons the F4U-1C had a 5 OBJ when the other planes with similar ordnance haul factors had a 10 OBJ.  I thought ENY was an air-to-air rating???

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: bozon on December 20, 2006, 01:09:39 AM

P47N is a very late war plane. Although produced in quite large numbers, the pony was the main US airforce fighter. Makes sense to me.

Personally I'd prefer it to be lightly perked and higher ENY. I have nothing to spend perks on and on the few occasions I tried to up one, the ENY limiter kicked in.

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Stoney74 on December 20, 2006, 01:17:02 AM

Out of the last 5 tours (including the current one) the P-51D has more P-47N kills than the P-47N has kills of the P-51D except Tour 79.  P-51D kill ratio over the last 4 tours (swag based on numbers) is around 1.1-1.3 over the P-47N.  K/D in Tour 79 was approx 1.1-1.2 in favor of the Jug

I could be more scientific and go back farther over more tours (in addition to computing actual K/D ratios), but the Jug ENY has only been changed to 5 since last month.  I think it was 12 in the past?

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Wolfala on December 20, 2006, 01:18:17 PM

The best month i've seen recently in the 47N was back in August 06, with July 05 comming in a close 2nd. Kills vs deaths having a delta between 5-10% +- whatever they were during the tour. Since I fly the 47N exclusively, except when ENY kicks in - I have a few notes on the subject.

1.  Eny is annoying when you need the N most.

2.  You can tanker around forever - 90 min missions are not uncommon when you use the correct power settings

3.  Going from 2000 to 2800 HP in WEP is a serious kick in the bellybutton - at any altitude and helps when operating in dumptruck mode.

4.  I've survived more close calls with cannon birds in the 47 then any other bird.

5.  Guns staggered bank 4 to 375 3 to 400, 2 to 425, 1 to 425 all the way upto has a nice paper shreader effect with crossing streams.

6.  For some reason, my guns have been very attracted to Stony's engine everytime i've encountered him at 20k.

7.  The N when handled properly can take 3:1 odds and still come out on top - especially at 20K and higher.

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Krusty on December 20, 2006, 01:44:03 PM

I don't think K:D has anything to do with ENY stoney. It's a non-entity. I think use and capability are what HTC uses to decide the ENY value.

EDIT: I think the N-Jug has been 5 ENY since it came out?

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Platano on December 20, 2006, 03:24:59 PM

I thought ENY kicked in when a plane was being overused.... If this is not the case than someone explain it to me or if not direct me to where I can find out more about this phenomenom?

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: indy007 on December 20, 2006, 03:58:18 PM

Well, I'd think that 3 ENY difference could be attributed to how it effects gameplay, as opposed to pure K-D ratio.

Given equal pilots, The -47N has a potential 1300 lbs more damage it can do than a P-51D on a single sortie. I could be alittle off, but I'm assuming 1 US rocket = 200lb explosion. With the relatively even speeds with the Pony & extra durability to survive the ack, it simply has more ability to influence game play. That's without bothering to calculate the extra 2 mg's & relative ammo loads.

I'd chalk it up to how it effects AH, as opposed to the relative fighter performance of the 2 aircraft.

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: humble on December 20, 2006, 05:57:24 PM

I've never fully understood the eny values. The 109K4 is the most deadly plane in the game from my perspective. Personally the hog is as capable as any plane in the game....it flat out owns the spit16 and pony IMO. Jugs take an awful lot of patience and touch to fly well IMO. I've always been suprised that the N has such a low eny....compared to the spit VIII or pony for example....

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: bozon on December 21, 2006, 12:56:52 AM

Quote

Originally posted by indy007
The -47N has a potential 1300 lbs more damage it can do than a P-51D on a single sortie. I could be alittle off, but I'm assuming 1 US rocket = 200lb explosion. With the relatively even speeds with the Pony & extra durability to survive the ack, it simply has more ability to influence game play. That's without bothering to calculate the extra 2 mg's & relative ammo loads.

Here are 2 misconceptions about the P47-N.

The D40 is a better JABO than the N. D40 out climbs the N and so will bring you quicker to the target and higher. The only thing the N has to offer in this respect is a faster getaway if you didn't waste your WEP on the climbout. If you didn't use WEP on the climbout, expect to climb like a bomber (and slower than D40). People take it just because it has a later version number.

The other is than the N is the fastest jug. It is, but only on WEP. Without WEP it is actually the slowest jug. You get 5 minutes of pure joy, as if the engine runs on pure adrenaline instead of fuel. In those 5 minutes it is a wonderful plane, but if you run out - dumptruck mode. You needed to save the WEP for the fighting which means a loooong climbout.

The extra range comes at the cost of outrageous weight of fuel and that in practice, is unneeded over what the D's offer. Jugs pay dearly in performance for their range. The guns are even farther out from the centerline because of the redesigned wing, making convergence a bigger issue.

What really makes the N a better fighter then the D's is the roll rate. It is wonderful. The other little benefit is the bigger wing gives better low speed handling imo. Oh yes, and the 5 minutes of joy :)

I still think it is an appropriate low perk and that the ENY should be raised so it doesn't get locked so early.

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Stoney74 on December 21, 2006, 01:23:53 AM

But, correct me if I'm wrong, ENY is an air-to-air rating.  OBJ is an attack or bombing rating.  There's no question the Jugs (minus the D11) are great Jabo's, and I can see a lower OBJ rating as a result, but the ENY shouldn't be low because its a great Jabo, right?  The C-Hog is the only plane in the game with an OBJ of 5, and I was under the assumption it was because it could carry lots of ordnance, and still have all those cannon for strafing.

I think the N model Jug is a great air-to-air aircraft, no doubt--I fly it a lot and get kills.  But, I just don't understand how the Pony D has a higher ENY than the N Jug.  Climb rate (even on WEP), speed, turn rate are all in the Pony's favor.  The only advantage the Jug N has on the Pony is 8 vs. 6 Ma deuce, slightly better roll rate, and a fantastic zoom climb (if you have speed) unless you're above 25K, then the Jug really starts to outshine the Pony.  But, lets face it, no one flies that high in the MA to dogfight, and even if they did, all that altitude is too big a temptation for the Pony to dive away to thicker air, and much better performance.

Not gonna obsess about it, just hoping someone could provide a quantitative or qualitative justification...

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Krusty on December 21, 2006, 05:37:44 PM

Bozon: The milpow speed is slower than all other P47s, yes, but we're talking only about 5mph slower at all alts. That's almost inconsequential. Not worth noting. The WEP speed is WAY more. So I think overall the WEP is worth it. That coupled with the roll rate, acceleration, and other factors, makes it better than the D-40 in most cases. Yes, the climb does suck, but it sucks in all jugs. You have to expect to climb out for 10 minutes in all of them, and in the N you have plenty of gas to climb out with.

Stoney: Wrong system. OBJ are inanimate objects [edit: I mean, everything else but you]. Kill something with an object of xxx and it uses that value to compute the perks you earned in that sortie. They don't affect the plane's value with ENY, just how much perks you rake in IF you kill one. ENY is used as the "value" of the plane. obj is used as the "cost" of the plane, basically.

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Lusche on December 21, 2006, 05:54:39 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty

Stoney: Wrong system. OBJ are inanimate objects [edit: I mean, everything else but you]. Kill something with an object of xxx and it uses that value to compute the perks you earned in that sortie.

Quoting from HTCs help pages:

"A TBM-3 with an OBJ value of 25 that destroys a bunker with a point value of 20 would receive (25/20) = 1.25 bomber perk points."

Obviosly, Stoney was right. OBJ hes a similar role to ENY when attacking things. Your plane has an OBJ value, used for perk gain computations.

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Krusty on December 21, 2006, 09:43:09 PM

It's used to compute perks, yes, but it's not used to limit planes depending on their roles (meaning, not only do fighters use ENY, and bomber don't use obj instead).

That's how I read him as typing it. I could be wrong.

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Stoney74 on December 21, 2006, 11:44:19 PM

So why does a F4U-1C have an OBJ of 5 when all the other fighters have a 10?

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: indy007 on December 22, 2006, 08:07:11 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Stoney74
So why does a F4U-1C have an OBJ of 5 when all the other fighters have a 10?

Weird. Maybe because there's no other 4x hispano + 2k in bombs + rockets, cv capable aircraft?

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Stoney74 on December 22, 2006, 09:52:44 AM

Quote

Originally posted by indy007
Weird. Maybe because there's no other 4x hispano + 2k in bombs + rockets, cv capable aircraft?

That's my point Indy...

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: indy007 on December 22, 2006, 11:03:06 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Stoney74
That's my point Indy...

christmas started earlier here. (http://www.aimface.com/smiles/IKON3a2434c9bd5617fb16976955621e5b305bc78a645d.gif)

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: bj229r on December 23, 2006, 06:41:47 PM

I'm so pi**ed about the ENY on the N that I don't even log in anymore---(was about to cancel until I heard about new map in MW--might try that out)--N carries tons of ord, as does the D40 and D25, but STILL isn't as fast as LA7, K4 or P51 or Tiffy on target egress. The gas thing isn't THAT big a deal, as the D40 goes some 43 min on full tank, which is fine for these small maps. If ANY eny kicks in at all, N is stuck in hangar, and I'm forced to change sides, or go to the other arena where Rooks are probably being rolled, and am afforded the opportunity to participate in a series of 1 on 5's.  Are there ANY kill/stats which show the N to be somehow uber in here? (the 'stats page stopped working for me, haven't a clue why--cookies enabled for HT) The last time I COULD see them, it wasn't flown a whole lot compared to others, and didnt have an impressive K/D--nothing to warrant the 5 it now has

(oh yeah: http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=193629&highlight=p47n

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Krusty on December 24, 2006, 01:19:05 AM

Thanks for that link.

When the heck did they up the C2 ENY?!??!?!?!?

No WONDER I ain't been getting nearly any perks! Shazbot! They ruined the best perk farmer of the game!

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Flyboy on December 24, 2006, 09:55:28 AM

whats the difference in the N wep and the D wep?

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Lusche on December 24, 2006, 09:59:23 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
Thanks for that link.

When the heck did they up the C2 ENY?!??!?!?!?

 

When the old MA was split up. The other plane doing a similar ENY quantum leap is the P51B. Both were about 40, now they have ENY 20 in Late War. But I think the new ENY value is more in line with their capabilities. But I really miss my 90+ perk runs in C205 ;)

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Krusty on December 24, 2006, 10:51:51 AM

Ditto, Lusche, ditto!

Although, the P51B was always under-rated. I'm glad it's a little better-ranked now.

EDIT:

Quote

Originally posted by Flyboy
whats the difference in the N wep and the D wep?

About 20mph across the board.

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: bj229r on December 24, 2006, 11:25:07 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
Ditto, Lusche, ditto!

Although, the P51B was always under-rated. I'm glad it's a little better-ranked now.

EDIT:

 

About 20mph across the board.

Yup, that 20 is the difference between spit16's/nikis catchin ya and not-- have to be a LOT more SA conscious with D40 than with N, or have a wingie or 2

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Flyboy on December 24, 2006, 02:36:55 PM

i ment mechanicly, whats changed?

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: bj229r on December 24, 2006, 03:07:33 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Flyboy
i ment mechanicly, whats changed?

Nuthin's changed...N used to be 12, NOW it's 5, just like LA7...D40 on wep is about same as N max throttle NO wep (few knots different I think)

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Stoney74 on December 24, 2006, 11:20:07 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Flyboy
whats the difference in the N wep and the D wep?

I think its 2800 HP on the N with WEP and 2300 HP on the D-40.  Think its 2200HP for the D-11 / D-25 on WEP.

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Widewing on December 24, 2006, 11:51:35 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Flyboy
whats the difference in the N wep and the D wep?

500 hp and nearly double the range.

P-47N does 366 mph at sea level, 400 mph at 10k, 460 mph at 26k and 476 mph at 30k. It has a greater range than the P-51D. Above 25k, it's also the best climber.

My regards,

Widewing

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Stoney74 on December 25, 2006, 12:19:22 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Widewing
...It has a greater range than the P-51D. Above 25k, it's also the best climber.

In your opinion, does that justify a 5 ENY for the Jug N while the Pony D sits at 8?  These are probably the two least important characteristics (long range and high altitude performance) in the Main Arena.  In real life, on the other hand, probably the most important.

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Flyboy on December 25, 2006, 03:32:17 AM

but why it runs only 5mins on the N vs. unlimited (untill overheat) on the D as bozon said?

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Stoney74 on December 25, 2006, 07:05:37 AM

Quote

Originally posted by Flyboy
but why it runs only 5mins on the N vs. unlimited (untill overheat) on the D as bozon said?

It still runs to the red line on the "N".  In real life, the water injection tank carried anywhere from 12-15 mins worth of water.

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: bj229r on December 25, 2006, 08:42:00 AM

N DOES have relatively long wep, but even on wep, the most common 4 or 5 late war track stars run it down under 10k, where 99% the action is

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: bozon on December 25, 2006, 10:17:43 AM

Quote

Originally posted by bj229r
N DOES have relatively long wep

It has the exact same 5 minutes all american fighters have in game.

The R2800-77 engine on the N was very similar to the earlier models. The major difference is that they officially allowed a higher boost level. It didn't offer more HP at mil power though. The 56th FG had over boosted their D jugs to near these levels. Johnson claims that his D-5 was over boosted to 72" which is similar to what AH N model does on WEP - only on a much lighter and less draggy razorback... that would be close to an M model performance, only flying at early 44 :)

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: gripen on December 25, 2006, 10:26:00 AM

The P-47N (as well as the P-47M) had a C-series R-2800 which was completely redesigned engine, IIRC the interchangeable part with B-series was starter hub.

gripen

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: bj229r on December 28, 2006, 05:00:10 AM

This is a partial copy Of Lusche's anti-La7 post in another forum--the 'stats' page doesnt work on ANY computer in my house, so I cant dig this stuff up like up like I used to---N obviously isn't flown much---wish I could see it's k/d

Plane            Kills  Deaths   K/D   "Usage"
P-51D         30383 28498 1.07 58881  
Spitfire Mk XVI 28123 25946 1.08 54069  
N1K2         30475 23318 1.31 53793  
La-7         26047 21259 1.23 47306  
P-38L         11868 16237 0.73 28105  
F6F-5         12478 14285 0.87 26763  
Typhoon IB 15990 10255 1.56 26245  
Hurricane Mk IIC 15625 9200 1.70 24825  
SeaFire         11546 13256 0.87 24802  
Bf 110G-2 11038 13735 0.80 24773  
Spitfire Mk VIII  9368 11199 0.84 20567  
Spitfire Mk IX   10519 9454 1.11 19973

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Lusche on December 28, 2006, 07:58:45 AM

Quote

Originally posted by bj229r
This is a partial copy Of Lusche's anti-La7 post in another forum--the 'stats' page doesnt work on ANY computer in my house, so I cant dig this stuff up like up like I used to---N obviously isn't flown much---wish I could see it's k/d

Here ya go:

P-47 D40  4888 Kills, 5360 Deaths, K/D 0.91  
P-47 N 4148 Kills, 4267 Deaths, K/D 0.97

(But keep in mind that the D-40 is flown in MW too, so that the N model most probably gets more usage in LW than the D40 - I really would like to see separate plane stats for each arena)

IMHO, the K/D of both Jug and Lightning (which fulfills a similar role in AH2) suffers from the fact that they are rarely used as a true fighter, but most of the time for ground attacks. Many of them are teared apart by AA fire, a fate certainly less common to Spitfires, Lalas or similar planes.




(BTW, my post you quoted from was by no means "anti" La7. I´m defending that little gem wherever I can)

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: bozon on December 28, 2006, 09:37:05 AM

Only the D11 is enabled in MW. The D40 stats are purely LW.

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Lusche on December 28, 2006, 09:56:54 AM

Quote

Originally posted by bozon
Only the D11 is enabled in MW. The D40 stats are purely LW.

You are right. I let my memory fool me. My bad.

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Krusty on December 28, 2006, 12:01:38 PM

90% of the jugs I see in the arena that actually "fight" (coming in with 5k+ over the highest enemy, never daring to do anything unless the target is occupied or pretending to be an easy cherry) are N-jugs. I've seen relatively few Ds lately. I'd guess most of those kills in the Ds are kills earned after ord has been dropped. As for pure fighters I've seen predominantly N models. Funny, that. (*shrug*)

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Stoney74 on December 28, 2006, 07:48:02 PM

Quote

Originally posted by bozon
Only the D11 is enabled in MW. The D40 stats are purely LW.

Would GV kills enter into these numbers?  Since most casual P-47 drivers are using them in dump truck mode, it could be that some of those kills are GV's?

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Stoney74 on December 28, 2006, 07:50:24 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Krusty
90% of the jugs I see in the arena that actually "fight" (coming in with 5k+ over the highest enemy, never daring to do anything unless the target is occupied or pretending to be an easy cherry) are N-jugs. I've seen relatively few Ds lately. I'd guess most of those kills in the Ds are kills earned after ord has been dropped. As for pure fighters I've seen predominantly N models. Funny, that. (*shrug*)

Ok, I'll bite on this one, but I'm going to start a new thread to do it.  See ya there Krusty!

Title: P-47n Eny?
Post by: Lusche on December 28, 2006, 07:54:25 PM

Quote

Originally posted by Stoney74
Would GV kills enter into these numbers?  Since most casual P-47 drivers are using them in dump truck mode, it could be that some of those kills are GV's?

There is definitely a huge number of GV kills included. But also a lot of deaths by M16, Ostwinds,  manned ack and of course panzer proxies ;)