Aces High Bulletin Board
Help and Support Forums => Help and Training => Topic started by: stantond on December 24, 2006, 02:35:54 PM
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Attached is a ~2mb film where, towards the end (at ~5.00 min), a reversal turn is done (not by me of course) where a slight dip in altitude occurs but no speed loss! Can someone clue me in on how to do this maneuver? For the life of me, I can't figure out how to do a 'bat turn', but I have it on film and it can be done!
Based on the film, there is only about 2k altitude to the deck. This has always freaked me out to watch someone do this. One thing I noticed is that the turn begins at about 5:24 in the film and by 5:30 the turn is mostly done. It looks like an altitude loss of 200-400 yards occurs. Are high g's for <10 seconds the trick? Is this something captured on film, but is really an issue with internet lag? This isn't the first time this has happened. Any clues are appreciated.
Regards,
Malta
Rascal Turn (http://members.cox.net/stantond/rascal_turn.ahf)
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Originally posted by stantond
Attached is a ~2mb film where, towards the end (at ~5.00 min), a reversal turn is done (not by me of course) where a slight dip in altitude occurs but no speed loss! Can someone clue me in on how to do this maneuver? For the life of me, I can't figure out how to do a 'bat turn', but I have it on film and it can be done!
Based on the film, there is only about 2k altitude to the deck. This has always freaked me out to watch someone do this. One thing I noticed is that the turn begins at about 5:24 in the film and by 5:30 the turn is mostly done. It looks like an altitude loss of 200-400 yards occurs. Are high g's for <10 seconds the trick? Is this something captured on film, but is really an issue with internet lag? This isn't the first time this has happened. Any clues are appreciated.
Regards,
Malta
Rascal Turn (http://members.cox.net/stantond/rascal_turn.ahf)
film doesnt make it past 4 minutes. it quits. on me
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:huh Even if there would be 'bat like move' I wouldn't tell you because you don't need to know. You were running accross half the sector then hiding in ack...
This film was the most horrifying 5 minutes of my AH experience ever!
Sorry, can't tell anything else...
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Originally posted by Balsy
film doesnt make it past 4 minutes. it quits. on me
Me too. Sorry for the inconvenience. It's fixed now.
Yes, I will run to ack on occasion. It's how I play the game.
Regards,
Malta.
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Seems to me you just made all the mistakes and the other guy got you!
No "Bat turn" there. Watch it slow motion and check the speed. This was a good film of Barrel Roll Defense! And you still had the 50mph on him when he levelled , but you panicked, turned and lost your E advantage. Still panicked and hit the trees!
Watch the film from an external F3 view and slow it down to say 0.4 and track your NME!
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Originally posted by Blagard
Watch the film from an external F3 view and slow it down to say 0.4 and track your NME!
I usually use the F5 view for that. Turn Trails on and use F8 and zoom to get best camera position.
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Originally posted by Lusche
I usually use the F5 view for that. Turn Trails on and use F8 and zoom to get best camera position.
Thanks, that shows if great especially when slow motion!
Just trim to the last 60 seconds, thats all worth watching unfortunately.
Edit
Also if you double click Rascal you will see from his perspective. I never realised you could view from the other plane until today, most interesting!
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Originally posted by Blagard
Seems to me you just made all the mistakes and the other guy got you!
No "Bat turn" there. Watch it slow motion and check the speed. This was a good film of Barrel Roll Defense! And you still had the 50mph on him when he levelled , but you panicked, turned and lost your E advantage. Still panicked and hit the trees!
Watch the film from an external F3 view and slow it down to say 0.4 and track your NME!
Look at the film starting at 5:23 (that's five minutes 23 seconds) and explain how one can get the plane to turn 180 degrees at 300+ ias without losing appreciable airspeed or altitude? Using trails you can see the plane maneuvering while I am not (use fixed external view for the other plane). It happens fast. Only seven seconds for the maneuver.
Yes, I panicked when he reversed and came back like that. I tried to repeat his maneuver but couldn't. Any one have any clues on how to repeat that maneuver (the one between 5:23 and 5:30 in the film)?
You see, part of the reason I panicked was because I was now in gun range with him on my six. In fact, if you look at the film from his plane he was firing at me all that time! Other than pulling a barrel roll, which probably wouldn't have worked, a hard break was all I could think of at the time. Unfortunately, at tree got part of my wing.
What I should have done, and normally would, was pull into a spiraling climb. I was out of WEP from the beginning of the engagement so I proably wouldn't have survived the sprial climb. But, that's what I would have typically done. If you look at his plane at 5:36, his nose was near pointing at my plane with a similar airspeed and altitude. About twelve seconds earlier, he was pointing in the opposite direction 3k out.
You see, that is what the subject of this thread was about. A high (mispelled) speed turn reversal "Bat Turn". Where the term "Bat Turn" came from the campy (but still entertaining) Batmobile 180 degree turns. That's what I am interested in getting "help" with, although I would prefer indifference to what some consider help. Where's Shane when you need him?
Regards,
Malta
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Malta,
I cannot find any "bat turn" in the film.
But I can point out what I think is your major mistake throughout all the film. Energy management.
Every time you look back to see a red icon (almost no matter what the altitude, attitude and speeds involved are) you immediatly get fully defensive and into negative E maneuvering (nose low).
Starting out with the very first merge. Yes, you were in the "worse" situation there - ie you had less E... but going nose level/low to extend only worsened your situation. You were doing right on diving a little to deny him vertical separation, but after that, you shouldve immediatly reversed into him. Your opponent took the opportunity you were giving by extending to get on your high six about 2 K out and started climbing while you were nose low. Also, you were pulling a turn while starting your extension, bleeding even more E.
Later, when you reversed into him, you banked 120 deg and turned into him - right move, but you were doing it full throttle, causing you to speed up even more on the way down. More speed = more Gs = more Energy loss on the reversal. Use your throttle!
You still managed to get him to overshoot, but then either panicked or lost sight (or both) and dove low for ack and the deck.... (E loss!!). You were in the start of a rolling scissor and probably couldve won it (at least you started with an advantage). You gave that up by extending low into ack. Stay with the rolling scissor next time.
The opponent also made a mistake at that point, following you down into ack... and almost paid the price for it.
Right after your snapshot, you follow him in a flat turn (even little nose low). That not only costs you a lot of E, but also increases closure rate and resulting in you overshooting (and getting shot at) in the next turn. Yoyoing off (or at least make a climbing turn and then adjust further maneuvering to your opponents flight path) wouldve been the better option here. Again, E management and closure!!
After the resulting snapshot of your opponent, the next mistake: youre tunring AWAY from him, not only sparing him the possible overshoot but also presenting him even more angle on you. Besides, youre again in a slight nose low flat turn, bleeding off E. Always turn into your opponent - unless you have the opportunity (read: Energy) to run.
Now your opponent finally does the smart thing and extends away from ack (even though he does it at the expense of giving up any advantage. Remember, not long ago, the situation was pretty much reversed... now youre on his six, 2 K out, more or less same E.
Now your opponent reverses into you. (Maybe thats the "bat move" you meant?). I cant check on your film, but id BET he chopped throttle dropping flaps for a second reversing - no problem whatsoever in a F4U at 6K. If you watch his speed and altitude... hes loosing alt, but not speeging up in any considerable way. My guess would be he even was full rudder to help him roll/nose low and also to assist him managing his speed.
You were doing the WORST you could ever do in that situation. Following him down in a SplitS going full throttle. He DID bleed of E pulling that reversal... your opportunity to rope/spiral climb him (watch your opponents second turn and judge his E loss - ie tightness of turn - to decide which one of the "rope options" is the better one).
Think of this moment as a merge. Hes cutting in under you (vertical separation!). You are splitS-ing after him.... nose low, full throttle, speeding up, almost pulling into blackout. If you watch him, he is lead turning you, on his way up. All he has to do is get you into his look up view (lift vector pointed at you) and roll into you.
Again, you were starting to do the right thing (really on the defensive now) and started a break turn. But you missed the opportunity of him overshooting twice (tip: Mouse pointer on gun pipper - any time and any view hes ahead of that, hes overshot) to go vertical ("barrel roll") over and up into behind him. That wouldve left you either with him in your gunsight or at least it a barrel roll with a fighting chance of getting him.
The rest after that is history as they say.
So, wrapping all this up into one sentence: You were too much on the defensive, poor E and throttle management cost you a kill to an opponent that made his share of mistakes.
Another thing i noticed.... you were watching him too little. Youre looging straight ahead, checking where he is every now and then where actually the reverse would be better. Watch him closely and check your own heading every now and then (especially at that ALT, where theres little chance of obstacles in the way).
I know this probably isnt what you were looking for posting this thread, but i still hope it helps you anyway.
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lol what was the point in even flying that sorty? i mean as soon as u engaged someone u got so scared u ran to your base.. and when u were chasing him once he turned to re-engage u tried to run again.. i dont understand this at all. whats the point in even playing?
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Corner for an F-4U is about 280. Corner gives best turn rate so he's able to get his nose around quickly. He sustains his speed because he overbanks and goes slightly nose low. Also, there are actually two turns since he levels his wings for a second or two during which he accelerates a bit and then overbanks again for the second turn. Can't tell how many G's he's pulling since you don't get the blackout in the viewer but it's an easy enough maneuver.
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Originally posted by stantond
Look at the film starting at 5:23 (that's five minutes 23 seconds) and explain how one can get the plane to turn 180 degrees at 300+ ias without losing appreciable airspeed or altitude?
Watch the film again. The time it takes RASCAL to reverse heading 180 degrees, he has lost roughly 1K of altitude.
I could just reproduce this in the TA in an F4U-1 (which I believe you were in): chopping throttle to idle and applying some rudder (one time even without dropping any flaps). Its 3 am here, ill review and post film tomorrow if you wish.
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Odd: Just like Balsy, I couldnīt get the film to play past 4 mins. Neither normal playback, nor jumping behind the 4 mins threshhold did work,
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Malta, as Mace mentioned he maximized his turn rate by dipping nose low, he lost roughly 6 to7 mph and 700 to 800 ft of alt ( Instantaneous Turn ), you aparently misjudged his E thinking he pulled a break turn and you decided to climb to draw him up maybe thinking spiral climb him, but realized he was still fast. At this time, he actually uses throttle control to not over shoot you and it is very noticeable in the film as his speed drops. Being roughly 2.2/3K away from your opponent it is sometimes hard to see just what their orientation is. This being the case one uses his best educated guess.......as the film ends it shows a misjudgement of the situation....... as for the "bat turn" in question no need to chop throttle, and one would not want to. You keep full throttle and even WEP with slight noselow to maintain your speed when reversing in this instance.
I could see how it might look like a hard turn when playing at regular speed being in a back and forth switching fight ( advantage switching )
there are numerous mistakes and missed opportunities by both of ya'll in that film, but we all make mistakes.......
better luck next time ~S~
Side Note: if you do not have helpful or positive comments / suggestions , please do not clutter up the place........
Merry Christmas / Happy festivus Everyone
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he lost an awful lot of speed....at least 60 mph maybe more. When he opened fire on you you had a 100mph advantage.
A couple of things stand out. All of which are easily correctable....
1) You seem to have no basic grasp of ACM
2) You do not use views effectively at all
3) you fly in a defensive reactionary mode
Rascals reversal was pretty typical...well flown but by no means extraordinary. Basically you had no view and made no adjustment. Had you simply flown straight he probably would have gotten no damage on you due to the quickly expanding range....
I'd be more then happy to work with you on the hog anytime you want....
But this is all about what you didn't do and has nothing to do with the other guy.
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Originally posted by stantond
Look at the film starting at 5:23 (that's five minutes 23 seconds) and explain how one can get the plane to turn 180 degrees at 300+ ias without losing appreciable airspeed or altitude? Using trails you can see the plane maneuvering while I am not (use fixed external view for the other plane). It happens fast. Only seven seconds for the maneuver.
OK I understand what you mean now but the turn seems normal to me. Just double click the name Rascal in the window to the right of the View and you will see it from the other F4u perspective. He is already turned a little off line before doing a break turn left nose low. He loses speed and Alt before coming out level then breaking a little left again before reversing into the barrel roll to right.
I tried the same turn at similar speed alt in an F4u with the same result in turn speed. Only a small file to check. So no real change to my earlier comments
Edit - link reset (Crosses fingers)
F4u_turn.ahf (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/geoff.goodwin/F4u_turn.ahf)
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Side Note: if you do not have helpful or positive comments / suggestions , please do not clutter up the place........
really any advice would be mute since he'll probably run from any fights like he did this time instead of implementing any advice we give the guy..
best advice i can give is next time stick it out and fight.. only way to learn is to fight it out
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Originally posted by TW9
best advice i can give is next time stick it out and fight.. only way to learn is to fight it out
thats some good advice TW
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Originally posted by stantond
Yes, I will run to ack on occasion. It's how I play the game.
To be honest, everything possible to screw up, you screwed up....
Why run for the ack? You had every opportunity to engage with no disadvantage. In fact, Rascal's speed on the initial merge would have worked against him.
When you did maneuver, you consistently turned nose low, while Rascal typically went nose high. Turning nose low increases your speed, at the cost of widening your turn radius. When Rascal reversed after extending away from the base (nothing special about his reverse, other than a lot of yawing due to what I believe is a twisty stick), you did nearly a Split-S off the merge and positioned yourself perfectly for Rascal to drop right in behind.
I noticed that both you and Rascal had a hard time keeping each other in sight. Nothing will get you killed faster than losing sight of the enemy.
Instead of concentrating on killing Rascal, you were most worried about being shot down. Other that losing sight of the enemy, few things will get you in deeper trouble than to flying with a defensive mindset. My advice to any AH2 pilot is not to worry about what the other guy is try to do to you, but to focus on what you are going to do to him. The best defense is always to attack. Force the enemy to maneuver and you create the possibility that he will make a mistake, or at least you will discover how good he is or isn't.
Here's a suggestion: Come to the Training Arena and spend some time with a Trainer. You need to have some other mindset beyond running for your life. If you like the F4Us, get some time learning what they are capable of and build some confidence. Likewise, you will learn how to handle a merge without panic.
To be blunt, a skilled F4U driver would have evaporated Rascal within seconds of the merge. He showed little aggression until after he saw you were not interested in engaging. Had you simply made a climbing turn to the left, dumping a notch or two of flaps, you would have cut across his turn and been in a firing position within 10 seconds. He didn't even know where you were, he was looking all around for you.
To Rascal's credit, we was at least somewhat aggressive thereafter, but you allowed that.
Schatzi is absolutely on the mark when she says that poor E management, equally poor throttle and flap management and a lack of aggression did you in from the start. That and not having a constant visual on Rascal.
Don't get down on yourself though. Everything you did wrong serves as a lesson. Most of these things can be corrected, or at least mitigated if you want to make the effort. This is why you should spend some time with a trainer in the TA, where making a mistake has no consequences beyond some non-lethal holes. Make a mistake and simply try it again and again, until you get it right. The TA is a place where you can gain experience without feeling bad about yourself. Heck, if you're not augering from time to time, you're not trying hard enough. Plus, some of the best F4U drivers in the game are Trainers. There are also some non-trainer volunteers who are outstanding pilots and are always willing to work with any player. You can always look up Nomak for a DA session. Nomak is an excellent teacher and a heck of a pilot (and a damn fine fellow too). Put in some effort and you'll reap rewards immediately.
My regards,
Widewing
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Ok,
I figured out how to make that maneuver, it's really not that tough.
As far as the fight, yes I *know* I was not at my best and made many mistakes. The first of which was climbing out on wep (and not realizing it). Perhaps it's psychological, but I tend to be not so agressive without any wep in the F4U-1.
Regarding running from the fight, I prefer to think of it as extending to an advantage. Wasn't there a fight going on? From what I could tell the fight lasted over six minutes. I really don't understand these comments.
Yes, I made mistakes. One mistake I didn't make, however, was immedatley fighting at an energy disadvantage for a quick death. Could I have fought better? Yes.
However, at least I got a ping on him before he extended (or some might say 'ran away'). Plus, I figured out a new maneuver! I'll take this film down, since it seems to serve no purpose.
Regards,
Malta
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Originally posted by stantond
Regarding running from the fight, I prefer to think of it as extending to an advantage.
You were extending to an even greater DISadvantage.
Yes, I made mistakes. One mistake I didn't make, however, was immedatley fighting at an energy disadvantage for a quick death.
Actually the E advantage was hopping from one to the other in the fight. There were times in between where youd managed to even out (if not gain) the advantage.
But I guess since you dont want to take our analysis/tips and well-meant advice, i guess taking down the film IS the best option.
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Originally posted by TequilaChaser
Side Note: if you do not have helpful or positive comments / suggestions , please do not clutter up the place........
TC, when commenting, sometimes harsh words are the only option, like in case of crime. Behavior in this film, in AH terms, is nothing short of the crime.
I looked at the film in order to explain the mysterious maneuver. I had to endure 6 minutes of virtual cowardice just to find out to be simple 180 degree nose down turn.
Malta is not a new player. He's been around for years. He didn't care to learn the basics for all these years and now he blames his misfortune on some 'bat move'. With all of his experience he could have figured that turn all by himself.
In his case, it is not matter of skills but attitude. Lack of skills, well, that is easy to fix, but attitude?
After all the analyzing, explaining and suggesting by knowledgeable folks, he dismisses them all in his last post, saying pretty much what he did was OK and critique was uncalled for.
So, unless I am proven wrong I'll stick with what I've said in my first post.
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Actually, it's not a good idea to personalize a critique. Helpful criticism is great but we really don't need the extra adjectives that don't contribute to the discussion. As a matter of fact, dispite what the movie showed, TOPGUN goes out of it's way to de-personalize critiques. Instead of "you did A which was stupid when you should have done B" they even go so far as to boil down a debrief into "the F-14 did A when it might have been better to do B". Also, please remember that there are no absolute answers in ACM. In some people's opinion, it might have been smarter to do A than B but that is just opinion, maybe informed opinion but opinion none the less.
A small, but important point and just my 2cents.
Mace
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Thanks Schatzi, Tequila, and Widewing for your interpretation of the fight.
Am always looking for ways to improve and I made plenty of oopsies in that fight....especially getting too close to the ack and losing 3 guns to it.
Thanks again for your input folks.
Good luck and good hunting Malta
RASCAL
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Originally posted by Schatzi
More speed = more Gs = more Energy loss on the reversal. Use your throttle!
I think I just had an epiphany at those words, Shatzi. Thank you. Until now, I have been under the impression that throttling back under any conditions equates to an energy loss. Therefore, I have always avoided throttling back at all costs. Even though I know that throttling back in a high speed turn makes a tighter and faster turn, I've been not doing it, choosing instead the slower method of removing excess speed by simply raising my nose. But now, I think I get it - while throttling back may lose speed and altitude, the gain in angles can be far greater than the loss of energy. Is that right?
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Originally posted by stantond
I'll take this film down, since it seems to serve no purpose.
Regards,
Malta
I would like to see the film please. :)
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Originally posted by Widewing
Instead of concentrating on killing Rascal, you were most worried about being shot down. Other that losing sight of the enemy, few things will get you in deeper trouble than to flying with a defensive mindset. My advice to any AH2 pilot is not to worry about what the other guy is try to do to you, but to focus on what you are going to do to him. The best defense is always to attack. Force the enemy to maneuver and you create the possibility that he will make a mistake, or at least you will discover how good he is or isn't.
Several years ago, there was a very good pilot who would easily destroy me in any fight. I'll call him "Bob." I never did manage to get anywhere near shooting him down until one day when he entered the server and I did not know it. I engaged him, not knowing who it was, and proceeded to carry out my usual routine of maneuvers which I used at the time on most pilots. This time, I not only held my own but steadily gained advantages throughout the fight. I was in control of the fight the entire time; it was no simple mistake on his part or fortunate move on mine. I ended the fight stuck fast to his six oh clock position, and when I shot him down I was incredulous to see his name in the chat bar. From then on, it was back to the old way - him constantly on my tail chewing away large pieces of my ship. I don't think I ever got him again.
It seems to me that a large part of duelling is psychological. When there's a certain pilot or ship that you're afraid of, chances are you're going to do poorly against him or it, even if you as a pilot are quite capable of dealing with it. I think that Widewing hit the cartridge on the rim when he said that a defensive mindset does you no favors in a fight. I'm certain that it is responsible for my losses more than my actual flying ability in the cases of certain pilots whom I respect and certain aircraft which I dread. Essentially, I think I lose these fights before ever they happen.
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Benny,
No doubt Schatzi will post a reply, but throttle back conditions depend entirely on the situation. i.e. when below corner speed I doubt there would be many circumstances to throttle back other than perhaps to force an overshoot or for a kill shot. For instance a high Yo Yo's is in part to get your speed down to enable a better turn speed without wasting that speed energy (you convert to height in the short term) of course being able to roll in the vertical helps in the corners to!. That would usually be a better move than either a high speed flat turn or chopping the throttle to get to corner speed.
In the reversal going down vertical from a fairly high speed to start off with, and trying to pull out at full bore, it will take you lower than if you ease off the throttle and you not only will you pull out quicker, but higher to, maintaining potential energy. So yes in that situation there is an angles improvement and maybe a no worse energy situation overall.
If you are in the vertical (down) dead slow, perhaps after having stalled, then you would want to apply full power.
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whats a bat turn?? :D
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Originally posted by B@tfinkV
whats a bat turn?? :D
A myth unless you happen to be a bat! ;)