Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Wishlist => Topic started by: Ball on December 26, 2006, 05:21:16 PM
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Was in MA earlier and 'Sinner' suggested adding another CV to task groups.
Since the formation option was added to buffs, CVs are far too easy to kill. We no longer have epic CV fights because as soon as it's location is called out, the Lanstuka formations come out.
How about adding an extra CV to make it that little bit more difficult to destroy the TG?
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I disagree
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I love this idea. This would make task groups harder to destory and there be more AA.
What kind of CV is in AH? If there is a second CV added I think it should be an escort carrier.
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I almost crapped myself when I read "Lanstuka formations "
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Awesome idea, and yes make it an escort carrier.
Shorter deck, lets light planes get up but if you need heavy you better be good or fly off the big ship.
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Interesting idea. I agree that CV's are easy sinkers for those suicidal no-patience dweebnuts who choose to dive in with a level-bomber. It's no problem for me to level bomb a CV at 8K (just out of reach of auto-ack) unless someone is very good in the 5", or cons are patrolling at alt for incoming.
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IMO it makes more sence to give each ship type, CV,CA and DD a separate hardness so the CV and other ships could be hardned as appropriate for each arena.
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If you are going to add another CV, I'd also like to see the multiple cruisers as well. We need that 'wall of flak' effect around a CV group to give us the proper anus-puckering realism that they had IRL.
1 CV, 2 CAs, many destroyers = good.
2 CVs, 4 CAs, very many destoyers = better.
It wouldn't be a bad idea to add 2 or 3 of the single 5-inch guns to those destoyers and have them be mannable too. ;)
EagleDNY
$.02
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Or add a battleship/battle cruiser?
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haven't been playing to long but i was even surprised how easy it was to take out a CV
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Originally posted by EagleDNY
2 CVs, 4 CAs, very many destoyers = better.
Not picking on you but do you really want 4 CAs parked off the end of your runway. It happens enough now so be careful what you guys wish for.
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I sure do - there is nothing like a good CV group battle, and this would REALLY make a huge one. One thing for sure, when someone calls out a CV group of 2 CVs, 4 CAs, and 8-16 DDs heading for your coastline, people will take notice.
The only thing that would make that better is a big fat Iowa class BB sitting there too.
EagleDNY
$.02
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I , partially, somewhat agree with the CV being weak in game. (Operation Downfall in SEA sort of proved that point rather well). Or rather, more to the point, we do not have the picket destroyers at the periphery of the TG, nor do you see any pilots flying High, Mid, or Low CAP to protect carriers during carrier operations.
Then there is the TF drivers that pulls a CV right up into easy range of operational shore batteries or the PT spawn point of a base that still has ord up. Or the TG's left to fend for themselves (ie ride a straight line) as enemy bombers appear overhead, and all the pilots low trying to vulch the fields.
So, it really comes down to the skills of the players being displayed in the game. As long as players do stoopid ....um....tactically unsound.....things with CV's, they won't last long (a little of this during Downfall as well....).
Not sure adding ships and guns will help. I suppose the amount of damage it takes to kill a CV or CA could be boosted a little to compensate, or have 2 CA's for every CV to make up for the lack of any BB's or picket ships and CAP.
You have to watch how tough you do make them. Some WWII CV's took huge poundings, others were taken out by single Kamakazi's that got through to ship's stores of fuel and ord.... The ship's in game cannot be taken out by lucky hits like the real one's could either.
If we still had big maps, I could see a TG with 2 CV's and 2 CA's, but our maps are not longer that big.
If the game sported a decent AI, I'd say add CV CAP drones to defend them to some degree. If we were looking at multi-CV task forces, then I'd say make the decks of CV's able to be damaged and repaired to ongoing flight operations.
One or two organized squads could do well with a CV TG. What we see in the arena normally....not so much.......
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Originally posted by tedrbr
So, it really comes down to the skills of the players being displayed in the game. As long as players do stoopid ....um....tactically unsound.....things with CV's, they won't last long (a little of this during Downfall as well....).
It was fine until they got formations ted.
Even if you are flying high cap over CV, it is hard to kill all bombers before they suicide into the boat.
They got formations, 3 x firepower from bombers, why not give them more targets and have a bit more parity? All it would mean is that the buff pilots have to display their skill level a bit more and keep CV fights going for longer, which used to be the norm.
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Originally posted by Ball
It was fine until they got formations ted.
Even if you are flying high cap over CV, it is hard to kill all bombers before they suicide into the boat.
They got formations, 3 x firepower from bombers, why not give them more targets and have a bit more parity? All it would mean is that the buff pilots have to display their skill level a bit more and keep CV fights going for longer, which used to be the norm.
I repeat: I never see CAP protecting a CV during carrier operations. No effort to provide one. No matter if it's one or three bombers..... unless the flak gets them, or a pilot chases after them after their initial run, the bombers are going to get a shot at the CV. If there are more than one CA or CV, you'll just see buff drivers bomb and bail on CV attacks more often (after all, what do we need buff perks for anyway?) so they can get back faster with more bombers.
Even if you take buff drones away, you still have CV's driven right up to shore batteries, and PT spawn points, and airfields with ordanance up. CV's die quick because of the way they are used in this game more than any other reason.
It seems it comes down to CV operators wanting their task forces to be nearly indestructable so they don't have to worry about it, don't bother to defend it, don't have to fight smart with it, and just worry about vulching the enemy field.
Now, if 2 CV-using squds took over one TG, and alternated between offensive and defensive operations for a night with said TG, you'd see a very capable fighting force (for some maps). That kind of cooperative effort is hard to find in-game though.
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More escort ships would make it harder to kill. Add another half dozen destroyers and maybe a light cruiser or two with only 5" cannons and multiple flak guns
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CV AA capabilities are already 1945 standards.
Do you really want to inflict an even more difficult target onto the small EW crowd?
As for "divebombing lancs", a properly modeled bombay would be a better solution than hardened CVs IMHO.
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I say 1 big CV, 1 Escort Carrier, 2 Battleships, 3 CAs, and multiple destroyers. Make TGs a *****!!! lol
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Originally posted by E25280
CV AA capabilities are already 1945 standards.
Do you really want to inflict an even more difficult target onto the small EW crowd?
As for "divebombing lancs", a properly modeled bombay would be a better solution than hardened CVs IMHO.
Amen to that. I'd love to see the 4 engine bombers limited so that the bombs only drop from the bombardier position, and only when in level flight. It might not be a perfect solution, but it would definitely help.
The twin engine bombers that can be used as dive bombers (JU88s, etc), should remain as they are (it might get them more usage), but any bomber that isn't rated as a dive bomber should have this limit.
What that does is at least give the single guy doing evasive CV driving some kind of chance at making the bombers miss. I still think that each group should at least be given the 2nd CA for additional ack support, and I wouldn't mind at least seeing how an uber-CV group of multiple CVs and cruisers would work.
Another good change would be to give the CV groups a greater radar range - say 25 miles to represent the radars of the pickets on the outside of the group. If we had a bit more warning of incoming contacts, we might see more people upping to defend. As it is now, when you see cons at 12 miles out, it is too late to get up and stop the incoming raid.
EagleDNY
$.02
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It is already a possibility to add more CV's, Cruisers and support ships to a TG. I have done it with a few of my "H2H" terrains. The problem is that HTC does not approve this for MA terrains.
I really agree with you eagle, yet the problem is that the radar on the CV is controlled by the "RadarRange" setting. It is a global setting for GV fields, Ports, airfields, carriers and all those other structures that have active radars. If the "RadarRange" is set at a particular range, the radar for all active scanning objects will be set to that same range. In order to do what you are suggesting HTC would have to make a few changes to the CV radar and add a new option to the Arena Settings list specifically for a CV's radar range.
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We had a thread on Radar a while back discussing this. CV defense is nearly impossible with a 12 mile radar ring - IRL an american CV group would have radar pickets to provide the extra coverage.
If we have to set the range of all active radars in the arena at once, I'd suggest we up to a 25 mile range on all active radars and see how that goes. People can still fly under the radar, and the radar itself becomes more of a strategic target when attacking a base. With a 25 mile setting you at least give the CV defenders a chance to up and intercept incoming attackers, and if they don't defend their CV it is on their heads and not a simple function of the game not giving enough warning to adequately mount a defense.
EagleDNY
$.02
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Well, why not up the "fighter / bomber warningrange" instead of the RadarRange? That way you guys still have the original radar settings, but the CV's siren activates when a fighter/bomber enters the 25 mile warning zone. That will also add to a little challenge in attempting to locate the enemy planes.
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Originally posted by EagleDNY
I sure do - there is nothing like a good CV group battle, and this would REALLY make a huge one. One thing for sure, when someone calls out a CV group of 2 CVs, 4 CAs, and 8-16 DDs heading for your coastline, people will take notice.
The only thing that would make that better is a big fat Iowa class BB sitting there too.
EagleDNY
$.02
Yes, they will take notice, when someone spots a CV. They tell their country/squad, then they send up a lanc and kill them, easy as that!
If their were 2+CV's, you would need more bombers or more time to hit all of them/more time and targets for the defenders
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Originally posted by EagleDNY
Amen to that. I'd love to see the 4 engine bombers limited so that the bombs only drop from the bombardier position, and only when in level flight. It might not be a perfect solution, but it would definitely help.
The twin engine bombers that can be used as dive bombers (JU88s, etc), should remain as they are (it might get them more usage), but any bomber that isn't rated as a dive bomber should have this limit.
What that does is at least give the single guy doing evasive CV driving some kind of chance at making the bombers miss. I still think that each group should at least be given the 2nd CA for additional ack support, and I wouldn't mind at least seeing how an uber-CV group of multiple CVs and cruisers would work.
Another good change would be to give the CV groups a greater radar range - say 25 miles to represent the radars of the pickets on the outside of the group. If we had a bit more warning of incoming contacts, we might see more people upping to defend. As it is now, when you see cons at 12 miles out, it is too late to get up and stop the incoming raid.
EagleDNY
$.02
Yes
maybe give the 4 engine bombers, say, something that dosent let them dive, like what we have, something that keeps them from turning to tight and stalling out
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My what short memories we have.
Back in the good old days of the big maps there were often times when 2 and sometimes even 3 task groups would be moving together side by side, sometimes even intermingling ships. It made no difference as there were never enough PEOPLE to man all the available guns.
In fact it just made it easier for the enemy to take out two task groups while they were already there.
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Originally posted by BaldEagl
My what short memories we have.
Back in the good old days of the big maps there were often times when 2 and sometimes even 3 task groups would be moving together side by side, sometimes even intermingling ships. It made no difference as there were never enough PEOPLE to man all the available guns.
In fact it just made it easier for the enemy to take out two task groups while they were already there.
Yes, but, the noobs, who bring lancs in time and time again, would have a tougher time killing the CV's because of extra auto guns. When I started out playing, I was a master at bombers, always asking when something needed to be bombed, then it was easy to kill a CV, more less it kill you, but if we had 2 CVs and extra crusiers/destroyers, more auto guns means less lancs 1.5K away from CV. I use your idea a lot. put 2 TG's together is good, hard to control, but good idea
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Originally posted by VooWho
What kind of CV is in AH? If there is a second CV added I think it should be an escort carrier.
Essex class
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Originally posted by OOZ662
Essex class
Thank you. One more question, thats the biggest carrier type durning the war right?
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Originally posted by VooWho
Thank you. One more question, thats the biggest carrier type durning the war right?
I think so...:confused:
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I believe so, but even if not, no Essex class carriers were ever sunken.
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Originally posted by OOZ662
I believe so, but even if not, no Essex class carriers were ever sunken.
We need SOMETHING else , another CV because it is to easy to kill one. If you had a P-47-D40/P-47N, either or. You could kill CV with ease. 2 1000lb bombs
1 500lb bomb 10 rocks, and lots of guns?
Id say so, ive done it before
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Originally posted by spikes
If you had a P-47-D40/P-47N, either or. You could kill CV with ease. [...] Id say so, ive done it before
I'd say nay. CV hardness is 6,000 pounds.
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i like the escort carrier idea and a iowa class battle ship. the Ai defence drones would be really cool :aok thats all it needs is that stuff right there
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Originally posted by OOZ662
I'd say nay. CV hardness is 6,000 pounds.
I wouldn't mind seeing CV hardness upped a bit (say 8,000 or 10,000), but that won't stop the fundamental problem of death by suiciding 4-engine bombers.
I still think we need:
1. Increased CV radar range to give defenders a chance to intercept.
2. Some kind of limiter to make us 4-engine buff drivers (yes I am one) have to have to be in level flight and in the bombardier position to let bombs loose.
Another innovation might be to have the CV "auto-evade" - say if enemy aircraft come within 6 miles of the CV, it starts a high-speed circling or zig-zag. It would make upping from a CV more difficult (you'd have to up manually - no auto-takeoffs), but it might give the CV a better chance of survival. Once no enemy aircraft are within the 6-mile "red-zone" the CV would return to its base course.
EagleDNY
$.02
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Originally posted by EagleDNY
2. Some kind of limiter to make us 4-engine buff drivers (yes I am one) have to have to be in level flight and in the bombardier position to let bombs loose.
Abso-friggin'-lutely!:aok
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what about some manned guns that are unmaned be controled by ai, and can be over riden by players to use. that way u dont feel alone when your the only 5"
this wouldnt work for the 8" one the battle ship because u would just leave them unmanned to the Ai and they would be pin point on land targets.
maybe adding and anphibious landing ship, im not sure what they are called, but having those would alow pt's and lvt's spawn, so when u sink a carrier there wont be 100 pt's floating around unless the anphib is sunk.
you could also have this ship just to add more ack and less argument for the ships use other than spawining landing craft
or have them both spawn crafts or w/e works
i know these ships exsist because if u look at the Dday invasions they are the ones parked on the beach, (that could be fun, spawn tanks from ship to shore)
and my granddaddy commanded one.
and maybe being able to resupply the cv? have lanes of supplie ships to go around ur shores from ports or w/e and u can get your TG to that to help heal w/e you can,
you can also sink these ships as somthing to sink, or have use for Uboats to attack merchent ships and such...
DOnt hate on my spell check abilities
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Good idea, but we do need merchant ships now that I think about it
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Originally posted by AX_00
DOnt hate on my spell check abilities
I checked three times.
I can find no evidence whatsoever of any spell check ability.
The "amphib" you are talking about were probably LST - Landing Ship Tank, and would take a lot of code changes since the task groups run together as a group, and none of the rest meant to run ashore.
And no metter what is done, as long as carriers run without CAP, they are vulnerable to bombers. Longer radar ranges would help (but would effect bases too), picket destroyers (with their own radar) also an idea, but would greatly effect how close to shore you could take the task force, strengthen the CV's a little, but that hurts EW efforts if globally done, and can easily be overdone.
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Originally posted by Ball
Was in MA earlier and 'Sinner' suggested adding another CV to task groups.
Since the formation option was added to buffs, CVs are far too easy to kill. We no longer have epic CV fights because as soon as it's location is called out, the Lanstuka formations come out.
How about adding an extra CV to make it that little bit more difficult to destroy the TG?
That is a good Idea ! I agree. :aok
Bob/CHECKERS
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They would have to add more mannable shore bats if they added a bunch of ships. Adding one escort CV wouldn't be bad but you can already take off as many planes at the same time as you want from the CV that's there. If there were wait times until the deck was clear I could see it.
If they added a bunch of DD's & CA's they would have to beef up shore defense or add subs to counter all these ships & then add in depth charges & then because there wouldn't be enough players to man all this new equipment they would have to raise the player cap on......hey, wait a minute; maybe that's not such a bad idea after all.... :D
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Originally posted by Ball
Was in MA earlier and 'Sinner' suggested adding another CV to task groups.
Since the formation option was added to buffs, CVs are far too easy to kill. We no longer have epic CV fights because as soon as it's location is called out, the Lanstuka formations come out.
How about adding an extra CV to make it that little bit more difficult to destroy the TG?
Maybe a new map should be created and thrown into the map rotation in which the three sides only have one small island in the corner, and ~ 15 CV task forces apiece. For each side five task forces would patrol close to the home island for defense, 5 at medium range for recon, and 5 expeditionary task forces for attempting to capture enemy islands. Island capture could require softening up, and a few waves of LVTs. Could be set so the islands would not support heavy bombers, maybe medium bombers. Then throw in the Mighty Mo, the Yamato and the Bismark!
Perhaps some of the task forces could be heavy, and some light. For every set of five, maybe 2 heavy that have additional capital ships and 3 light like the current task forces.
If there were no technical issues with this arrangement it might provide an interesting change of pace.
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http://gateway.ca.k12.pa.us/memorial/lst.jpg
ok, i noticed, when you spawn lvts... and you dont spawn in the the TG but actually closer to shore... maybe... if code wasnt a question, that the LST, would do somthing similar..
a boy can wish.. this is a wish list
and the spell check abilitys.. i dont spell check, i just type and post.
..and ur a hater lol
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If anything the CV's are over modeled for damage....
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021309.jpg )
Only a few hits would take them out of action.
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021306.jpg )
They was floating gas stations...
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020214.jpg )
The decks was largely made of "Wood" not armor.
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020511.jpg)
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020633.jpg )
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020230.jpg )
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020241.jpg)
I am OK upping the number CV's in a TF... but CV's take way to many hits and are still able to do air ops.
CAVALRY
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why not just take 2 of are task groups when avabile and run them side by side
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Cav, all that may be true, but in real life, some of the biggest bombs to hit a ship were our 1,000 pounders and the 2,000 lb torpedos. In this game, you have 3x14,000 pounds of bombs able to rain down on carriers, not to mention the 3,000 pounds a single P-47 can carry. It's about playability, not realism. If it were real, the CVs would never sink since an Essex never sunk.
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Originally posted by CAV
If anything the CV's are over modeled for damage....
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021309.jpg )
Only a few hits would take them out of action.
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021306.jpg )
They was floating gas stations...
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020214.jpg )
The decks was largely made of "Wood" not armor.
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020511.jpg)
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020633.jpg )
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020230.jpg )
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020241.jpg)
I am OK upping the number CV's in a TF... but CV's take way to many hits and are still able to do air ops.
CAVALRY
True - 1 bomb on the flight deck and air ops stops until damage control fixes the hole and puts out the fires. Unfortunately, we don't have that modeled here. Nor do we have modeled the 50 mile circle of radar picket destroyers, or a limit on dive-bombing kamikaze Lancasters.
For game purposes, upping the CV hardness a bit and adding an additional CV and escorts makes a more reasonable task force. I'd like to see some mannable 5" singles on the escorting destroyers (since we aren't likely to see 3" guns anytime soon), and I still think the radar circle needs to be increased to 25 miles.
CV battles are some of the best furballs in the game, and given that the CV can only attack on the coastline, I don't think we unbalance anything by adding to the CV groups.
EagleDNY
$.02
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No Essex class was sunk, but they didn't stand up to air attack any better. Add another CV, up the number bombs needed to kill a CV... all great. But I think the Carriers need a point where air ops is stopped by damage.... If 6000 pounds kills it, at 4000 pounds planes can't takeoff. The TF driver takes the ships out to sea and waits for a repair time, before getting back in the fight.
(http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021311.jpg)
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one time it took 2 upps in lancs for me to kill a cv
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CV hardness is 8k, Cruiser 2k.
more CVs together just means more sink @ same time. Ive sank 4 CVs in 1 sortie, Bish had 4 TGs together, the CVs all sank within 1 min of each other.
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Originally posted by spikes
one time it took 2 upps in lancs for me to kill a cv
You bombed across the plane of travel, not along it, so only 3 or maybe 6 bombs hit.
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Maybe the more ports you have the more ships in fleet, and the faster they mend? Makes sense from a logistics standpoint.
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I could see having air ops stop on a CV that is burning. I'd like to know exactly how much ord it takes to make a CV burn tho.
If we go this route, there really should be a way to resupply CV groups to get repairs done. I suppose we could do it with goons.
EagleDNY
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Originally posted by EagleDNY
I could see having air ops stop on a CV that is burning. I'd like to know exactly how much ord it takes to make a CV burn tho.
If we go this route, there really should be a way to resupply CV groups to get repairs done. I suppose we could do it with goons.
EagleDNY
If I'm seeing the damage model correctly, the first hit starts the CV "burning", pretty sure that is the radar tower, which takes the first hit. That would make it about the first 250# of ord to hit.
Not so much CV burning, but if more than 1 CV per task group, then having a damaged flight deck for 15 minutes from bombs, until repairs made to stop air ops would be an idea. How much damaged before the flight deck out of commission is something that would have to be tested.
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i think cvs should move a bit faster. and i dont think you need another cv i think we should make 5 incers auto if not maned and be deadly up to 8k. by adding another cv just means people are going to careless about how they use the cv. as it is now noone cares to much about porking ords at a base that their cv is attacking. and the way ports are set up now its so easy to deack maybe adding the two guns that where taken out of the ports would help to keep some of them.
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by adding another cv just means people are going to careless about how they use the cv.
They are careless now, the other night someone parked one so near the base I was hitting it with a tank. Maybe what we need isn't another CV, but a surface battle group that can spawn LVT's and not the CV TF. That way the Carrier TF has no reason not to stay out at sea.
CAVALRY
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Originally posted by LTARkilz
i think cvs should move a bit faster. and i dont think you need another cv i think we should make 5 incers auto if not maned and be deadly up to 8k. by adding another cv just means people are going to careless about how they use the cv. as it is now noone cares to much about porking ords at a base that their cv is attacking. and the way ports are set up now its so easy to deack maybe adding the two guns that where taken out of the ports would help to keep some of them.
CVs move almost as fast as the torpedoes do now - increasing their speed any more would be unrealistic. Also - it still won't run a suiciding dive bombing lancaster, even at 55 kts.
EagleDNY
$.02
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I have a question:
If bombs are dropped and they miss a ship but land nearby in the water, do they explode and cause damage? Did they in real war?
just curious.
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Originally posted by OOZ662
You bombed across the plane of travel, not along it, so only 3 or maybe 6 bombs hit.
ive had CVs take 24k ded center of flight deck and not go down. all the bombs hit the CV none in the water.
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Originally posted by scottydawg
I have a question:
If bombs are dropped and they miss a ship but land nearby in the water, do they explode and cause damage? Did they in real war?
just curious.
yes bombs hitting the water near the CV (within a deck width) will damage the CV and sink it too.
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Full damage model? I.E. as if they had been dropped on land?
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Originally posted by whels
yes bombs hitting the water near the CV (within a deck width) will damage the CV and sink it too.
According to HiTech himself during the convention recording, bombs splashing in the water DO NOT explode to cause damage.
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How about making cv invis to people who havent been in country for at least 48 hrs?
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Originally posted by OOZ662
According to HiTech himself during the convention recording, bombs splashing in the water DO NOT explode to cause damage.
ive seen it happen many many times from tower of CVs while defending.
also as armored as the 5" guns are, i would think, they should require amore near direct hit with a bomb to disable then just like it is now.
a bomb anywhere near the tower usually kills 1 or both 5"s.
it would be great if as CV takes damage things stop working.
1st hits kills guns, and dar if bomb hits it. when CV is hit with
half the lbs to sink, flight Ops stops, but GV Ops still open.
Sink CV and cruiser, all Ops closed. Or put in Troops ships,
so that defenders can stop the ded CV, LVT rush that happens.
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Originally posted by bzek74
How about making cv invis to people who havent been in country for at least 48 hrs?
Id like to see, if someone flies over a enemy CV, it is reported on the map for say 15 to 30 min as last position know marker. would simulate a recon plane or other craft reporting it to HQ. make rang say 5 miles, to simulate having to make positive ID. after 30 mins the marker goes away unless someone else flies over it again, or its engaged in battle with another fleet.
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Originally posted by bzek74
How about making cv invis to people who havent been in country for at least 48 hrs?
yes, because spys go and callout the position, then switch back as oson as they can
i like that idea
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Love the idea of an escort carrier with limited plane set :aok
More escorts would also be nice
Add at least 1 Battleship with 16 inch guns
:O
another Cruiser :aok
Even if they could make only a portion of the CV's for each side a "reinforced" battle group( Battleship, extra Cruiser and escorts) would be a excellent addition to the game.
This would make taking out these types of battlegroups a priority along with the port they spawn from......
great ideas in this thread!!!!!!
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Originally posted by OOZ662
You bombed across the plane of travel, not along it, so only 3 or maybe 6 bombs hit.
nope, was about 1000 ft high, all bombs hit in both upps