Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aircraft and Vehicles => Topic started by: Reynolds on December 27, 2006, 03:08:16 AM
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Well, its that time of the month again. No, im not a girl, not THAT kind. Once a month I get this uncontrolable, inexplicable obsession with RAF aircraft, and I have again fallen in love with the Mosquito. But, before I get back to my non-twisty stick and do some serious flying, I thought I would consult the great AH gods on just how they should be used. So, at what roles does she excel?
Also, in the fast attack role, did they fly in the hundreds of feet, thousands, or ten-thousands of feet AGL?
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Originally posted by Reynolds
So, at what roles does she excel?
Everything - the Mosquito was brilliant at everything. The only WW2 aircraft that could rival the Mosquito in terms of versatility is the Ju-88.
Originally posted by Reynolds
Also, in the fast attack role, did they fly in the hundreds of feet, thousands, or ten-thousands of feet AGL?
All altitudes.
Example of pinpoint accuracy at ultra low level: -
http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/amiens.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Jericho
http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/aarhus.html
http://www.raf.mod.uk/history/shell.html
Mosquito B.35 - could bomb germany from 35,000 feet with a 4k bomb at 435 mph.
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/d/d7/Mosquito_600pix.jpg)
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Brilliant. Thank you. But for our particular model, with no bombsight, would it fly low and attack level? or fly at around 5k and dive in?
And, should I use it to TnB, BnZ, Angles?
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The mossy has a horrible problem where it is very very easy to spin at slow speeds or high-Gs. Sometimes it will even flip inverted and fall straight down with the nose level in an uncontrollable lead rock imitation. This is caused by the center of gravity being in the wrong place on our model (a coding error).
Unless they fixed it.
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Originally posted by Reynolds
Brilliant. Thank you. But for our particular model, with no bombsight, would it fly low and attack level? or fly at around 5k and dive in?
The FB versions did it all Reynolds, NOE level bombing - pretty much flying the bomb into the target and getting out at the last second, dive bombing, strafing, day and night.
Originally posted by Reynolds
And, should I use it to TnB, BnZ, Angles?
Can use a combination of all if you want. Start off BnZ. The Mossie is fast, but the CG bug really is a killer at any speed. Be careful using the rudder too much or you will enter a BS cartwheel style spin which is pretty hard to get out of. If you do, i found that i can get out of it by stopping the opposite engine and powering out with the other one.
Check out this Reynolds: -
5 parts
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YuQ6pMb1Jsc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvMu4SAcfj4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dukazlhkg7o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2dFoKZYlD5o
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i3TwWTUCIPE
Airshow footage (sadly none flying at the moment)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZLnOlaFGac
The only thing better than the sound of a Merlin... is two Merlins :)
Thread i put up ages ago:
http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=101934
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"So, at what roles does she excel?"
In the game? The Mosquito does not excel at anything in the game. It does not have a role in the game other than as a periodic indulgence. It is not as fast and does not climb as well as a fighter; it carries no higher bombload than a P51 or Corsair, albeit that it carries more actual bombs; it does not strafe as well as a 110G2; it carries a smaller bombload than the P47 or G2. The bombload is such that you have to open the bombbay whenever you drop a bomb, because the ammo counter does not tell you if you have selected the internal or external 500lbers.
It does not have a bombsight, and so you have to divebomb, but you can do that just as well in a P51 or Corsair or Typhoon or P38 or P47 or G2, and you will have more chance of surviving the sortie and perhaps scoring some fighter kills as well. In terms of overall performance the game's Mosquito is only just faster than a 110G2 until 20k, at which point the G2 is faster. The Mosquito has trouble in a dive and it tends to attract pilot wounds.
Once you have divebombed the target you are in trouble, because you are a large target, everybody wants to kill you, and almost all the other fighters climb better than you, including for example the FM2, the Fw190A8, and the 110C4.
In terms of raw speed the game's Mosquito is impressive for something so large; it has sweet spots at 7k and 15k. At 9k it is faster than a 109G6 and G14 if they do not use WEP, and beneath about 14k a 109G6 probably won't catch it in a straight chase.
In its current form in the game, as in real life, the Mosquito is dead once it slows down or gets low, which it has to do in order to drop its bombs, and there are many other planes that give you more options.
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Originally posted by Apeking
In its current form in the game, as in real life, the Mosquito is dead once it slows down or gets low
Must be why they avoided all those low altitude raids in the Mossie then? or why it had the lowest loss rate of any allied combat aircraft in the ETO?
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Mossie!!
(http://www.stelzriede.com/ms/photos/planes/mosquito.jpg)
The mossie is great fun, i wish i had the net at home. I wont be able to play AH until the summer. The mossie isn't too great at bnz because of it's heavy E bleed and poor acceleration. IMO it's more effective to burn E to gain angles, I prefer to fly it aggressively. It can be a handleful when slow, but it's not say that without practive you can't fly it at low speeds. In turnfights i generally drop a notch or two of flaps in the turns and raise them asap afterwards.
I'll see if i can find some old AH films, any newer ones will be PC @ uni.
P.S fruby is teh gay
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Originally posted by Apeking
"So, at what roles does she excel?"
In the game? The Mosquito does not excel at anything in the game.
Coming from someone who obviously hasnt fought thrila in it ;)
Bruv
~S~
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Originally posted by thrila
P.S fruby is teh gay
you wish... you poo stabber.
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"Must be why they avoided all those low altitude raids in the Mossie then? or why it had the lowest loss rate of any allied combat aircraft in the ETO?"
You are writing a parallel thread about the Mosquito's real-life performance and history. I am writing about the Mosquito's performance in Aces High. I admire the real-life Mosquito, but the version we have in the game is neither here nor there. In its current form in the game, the Mosquito does not excel at anything - I can envisage it being a handy bomber interceptor, but you'd need to be patient and sanguine.
In the current tour the Mosquito looks to have had fewer fighter kills than the Ki-61. The F6F looks to have had more Panzer IV and Ostwind kills than the Mosquito has had ground kills of all types including PT boats. The A20 has three times as many Panzer IV kills as the Mosquito. NB this does not account for damage to infrastructure, and it is not necessarily a measure of the Mosquito's competencies - however, it is a measure of how little the many veterans who play this game think of the Mosquito. They might praise its qualities in an abstract sense, but when push comes to shove they fly something else.
EDIT: I will add however that it makes for a handy "goalkeeper" if you are patient. It has the endurance to loiter at altitude around friendly bases, and it has the maneuverability and firepower to take out bombers from a slightly greater range than the 110G2, and it has the speed to keep away from distant fighter escorts provided that they are not hell-bent on getting you.
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Originally posted by Apeking
I am writing about the Mosquito's performance in Aces High.
I mistook this as meaning "in aces high, just like the real life Mosquito."
Originally posted by Apeking
In its current form in the game, as in real life, the Mosquito is dead once it slows down or gets low
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The mosquito is a beauty. A work of art and in my mind, the most interesting plane ever built. It could have had a much greater impact on the war if british bomber command were more imaginative and realized what they had earlier.
In the game it falls between the seats. There is not need for its range. You'll never need to load more than 50% fuel or carry DT. In some cases 25%+DT is a useful loadout. It carries a good loadout in MWA, but in LWA almost all jabos carry more. It is fast in MWA, but too slow in LWA to be meaningful. It cannot sustain high speed dives without falling apart.
The handling is probably the worst of all the planest. The tail feels heavy and accelerated stall is just nasty and will lead to immediate spin. Stall it with nose high and you may enter a deep stall, where you can't bring the nose below the horizon to recover (lots of rudder to flip it on the side is the solution). It also tends to "fish-tail" with every stick input.
Damage model is shared with the Zero. Prone to catching fire and pilot wounds. Not very durable parts either.
Some nice features it does have:
Good climb! yes it climbs great and it climbs fast. Do not believe the AH graphs as they are with 100% fuel which is A LOT, and you normally never have more than 50%. It will outclimb a light jug while it carries 4*500 lbs bombs 50% fuel. When light it really can climb well. Also, try climbing at ~200 mph while making your way to the target instead of the default 150 mph. You loose only little climb rate but gain much more ground in the process and are already at maneuvering speed.
Good dive acceleration and zoom climb. All that mass and low drag does come in handy.
Super guns. When on the offense, one of the most dangerous planes. Compensates some for being terrible on defense.
And most important - the elusive "coolness factor" is off the scale :)
I did a tour in it a while ago and had a blast, but it can get frustrating sometimes, especially since I like to fight from a disadvantage. Evading BnZ is difficult. I suggest taking it for some aerobatics practice to get the feel for the quirks and how to avoid them. If you can take it safely to the edge it turns out to be even a decent dogfighter.
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Thrila, I LOVE that poem in your signature.
I want to thank you all for all of this. And I am stil trying to find that BULLS**** mossie pilot who, after I cut off his tail, with his nose pointed straight down, and me already 1k away managed to put one lucky cannon round through my engine... HOW THE **** DID HE MANAGE THAT SHOT?!? but yeah, as I have seen the Mossie is a brilliant plane. He guns feel even more effective than the 110G2.
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My experience is that lots of late war guys think it's a useless slug and get lazy around it. As thrila says, get some angles.
Choose your fights - as mentioned above, in a furball it's a magnet for bad guys. Your friends will thank you for flying it as a red conga-line develops behind you, so try to use the radar to find some 1 v 1s.
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I just discovered, through practice, the Mossies rockets are easier for me to aim than any other rockets...
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As to it being a useful bomber interceptor:
Nah. Tried that a long time back. It's a pilot wound creating machine. Almost impossible to get much done and survive against bombers.
Also it's got 4 hizzos with lots of ammo, but they fire VERY fast, so you spend more time controlling your bursts to save ammo than you would in (say, for example) a 190a8. I've used half my 20mm in one with a single attack run on a single bomber. P.S. I didn't even kill said bomber! Right after my pass (still doing 400+MPH) I got a pilot wound and never made it home. It's a terrible bomber hunter because of all its weaknesses. If you don't get a PW you'll surely get a trailing fireball coming out of your fuselage.
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I am using it for fast attack on fields. That seems to work, only the auto ack is a *****.
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Indeed. If you want to survive in the ack it means you need lots of wingmen. That splits the ack up. However SOME poor sod gets the shaft, as 90% of the ack will invariably target the same plane (Murphy made a law about this, I'm sure). That means 1 less target. Then 1 less. Then 1 less. Then it's just you, and chances are you'll get shot to crap before taking down all the ack at a field.
On the plus side, you've got 2 engines. On the negative side, you take PWs very easily and catch on fire even more easily. I'd suggest 110Gs for deacking. They seem to survive way more damage.
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Actually, I fly at about 3k AGL, then just as the field comes into view, I hug the deck, fire off my rockets, hugging the ground so tight the ammo bunkers' roofs are above me, keep my head down and shoot out the other end until im out of range of ack, then do it again. It seems to work! The ack can barely touch me at those speeds ad altitude. You have a point about PW though. Its like a magnet! But I like the mossie more than the 110.
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I loved the Mosquito in AW. I thought I would love it here, hence my handle.
Not so. It sucks up pilot wounds like a Kirby vacuum after Tim the Toolman has modified it.
The wings light up like 6 month old Christmas tree in a fireplace.
And the CG problem is pathetic.
Still I fly it every now and then. Can't remember the last time I landed one without blacking out though.
I have this hanging right above my monitor, autographed by five RCAF Mossie crewmen.
(http://www.brooksart.com/Rampage.jpg)
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If not for the vulnerability, it would have been a great plane for de-acking. With the nose mounted cannons, all you need to do is align the gun sight with the target then fire a short burst while pulling a little up to point slightly beyond the target. The hits on the ground will form a line over the ack gun and kill it.
Since there is no convergence issue, it can be done from a great range, just as the acks start shooting. Don't wait to see the gun destroyed! you can start aiming at a second gun before the shells hit the 1st one, or get quickly out of their range.
What spoils it is the "fish tailing" tendency of the mosquito. The left-right pendulum swing spoils the aim.
Some of the "coolness factor":
(http://www.onpoi.net/ah/pics/users/1015_1167287842_dehavillandmosquito.jpg)
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This "coolness factor" you speak of... I'm not seeing it... :t
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Originally posted by Krusty
This "coolness factor" you speak of... I'm not seeing it... :t
Its the blond girl standing next to the hangar in the picture. Motion blur makes it hard to notice.
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2 fixes for it -
1) Get the C of G in right place.
2) Remove the flame dampers. Our version (batch 2 onwards, batch 1 never had rocket options) were never delivered with the flame dampers fitted. As they were only used for night stuff and we haven't got any night, ditch them. Gives up to a 10-15mph increase in speed.
The low level raids they are famous for were usually carried out by a combination of FB VI and B IV.
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Bozon: Is she scantily clad?
Kev: What's with that CoG? If they could have, they would have fixed it by now. Either they CAN'T fix it (bug) or they have info that shows this is how it should be and they WON'T fix it. I don't recall the specifics in BBS threads of yore, but maybe you do.
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IIRC, I've seen them claim it's wrong. However, I seem to be making up a lot of "They said ____" these days. Sorry about that.
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the mossie we got now doesnt handel like it should.if it was such a dog in real it wouldnt have been flown like it was by the guys that flew it.
ig HTC ever get it right with the COG so the bugger dont flop around or flat spin like it does then it will become the monseter it should be.
And they didnt burn to 1 ping like they do i this game
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It was never a "monster"... It was a multirole plane with good qualities, but it was never one to dogfight 109s and 190s and come out on top like the spitfires and p51s and hurricanes did. It could defend itself, and it was a formidable firing platform, but hell it was no P-38.
I agree that maybe something is wrong with the CoG. But for the most part I don't think that changing it will make it any more of a killer than the 110G is right now.
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Originally posted by Krusty
Kev: What's with that CoG? If they could have, they would have fixed it by now. Either they CAN'T fix it (bug) or they have info that shows this is how it should be and they WON'T fix it. I don't recall the specifics in BBS threads of yore, but maybe you do.
Pyro told me in a phone conversation that the CoG on the Mossie is off and is a known bug that will be fixed when the Mossie is redone to AH2 standards.
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The Mosquito is awfully fun to fly, but figure on dying from the flop-spin or a pilot wound, every time.
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Petition to have the Mossie upgraded to AH2 standards!! Who's in? :P
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Originally posted by Krusty
It was never a "monster"... It was a multirole plane with good qualities, but it was never one to dogfight 109s and 190s and come out on top like the spitfires and p51s and hurricanes did. It could defend itself, and it was a formidable firing platform, but hell it was no P-38.
I agree that maybe something is wrong with the CoG. But for the most part I don't think that changing it will make it any more of a killer than the 110G is right now.
It was very maneuverable, check out the footage i posted of the 1 engine rolls at low level.
It is not a fighter in the sense that the 109 or Spitfire were, but it hugely, hugely outperformed the 110. I had the pleasure of speaking to a 110 pilot who flew G-2's, he said they had trouble catching lancs without their bombload because they were so underpowered and overladen with cannon, and that the lanc could outdive them after bombs gone... Doesn't sound like AH does it?
Originally posted by Krusty
Petition to have the Mossie upgraded to AH2 standards!! Who's in? :P
Best post i have ever seen you make :)
:aok
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Yeah, that flop spin has been murder. I have been able to recover (THANK YOU SO MUCH FURBIE) but since my habbit is to fly low, even though I recover, I am starting so low I normally hit before I can finish pulling out.
Vote 'Yes' on the petition!
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Ball that airshow footage was brillient
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Originally posted by Krusty
Petition to have the Mossie upgraded to AH2 standards!! Who's in? :P
YES! :aok
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Originally posted by bozon
YES! :aok
See my post in the wishlist forum.
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The mossie is an underated attack plane for a 1 way trip but we need the fighter variant or at least the different variants like we have with spits.
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"Terror in the Starboard Seat" by Dave McIntosh. A great book written by a Canadian who flew as a navigator (thus the "starboard seat" part of the title) in a Mosquito for the RAF. I've never read a more honest and humorous book about WWII aviation.
For example, he tells of how terrified he would get when flying through ack and other ground fire, so scared that he would be unable to speak. The pilot would be asking him questiong, but he could not get his mouth to move. He describes circling German airfields at night, waiting for planes to land, shooting down a V1, and once shooting at a man, presumably German, who was resting on the balcony of a building. Of course that didn't make it into the flight report.
Interestingly, there one bombing run was a failure. I think they made three passes at the intended target, a bridge, but couldn't hit it. So, if I remember correctly, they did mostly attack and recon missions.
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The problem is in how you fly the AH Mossie. If you are going to furball in it, you'll probably be in trouble.
Great fun to up one and try and fly one of those intruder sorties. One night when I was bored of the same old same old, I upped a mossie and went the long way around on the deck. I think I was Knits at the time and the fight I went to was between Bish and Rooks.
I made my target the airfield with the bigger dar bar and caught them taking off coming in from the opposite side of the fight. I didn't last long cause I made more then one pass, but it was fun to see the panic that followed the Mossie coming up over the rise out of nowhere :)
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Can't do that with new ack levels, now :cry
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Originally posted by Guppy35
The problem is in how you fly the AH Mossie. If you are going to furball in it, you'll probably be in trouble.
Great fun to up one and try and fly one of those intruder sorties. One night when I was bored of the same old same old, I upped a mossie and went the long way around on the deck. I think I was Knits at the time and the fight I went to was between Bish and Rooks.
I made my target the airfield with the bigger dar bar and caught them taking off coming in from the opposite side of the fight. I didn't last long cause I made more then one pass, but it was fun to see the panic that followed the Mossie coming up over the rise out of nowhere :)
She's great at the intruder role where you need to get in, get something killed at a base and then maybe get away. I'll take a mossie up when we are trying to take an enemy shore base with a CV and need to get the ord or vh killed.
If you can get close enough to get your dive started, you can hold a mossie together all the way up to the end of the IAS, and get your ord off. Yes, you can shred it with too much speed, but it will stay together and maneuverable at speeds that turn you into a lawn dart in a 110. I think most folks shred them by not throttling back enough... 400 your Ok, 440 your Ok, 480 you better lay off the power cause about 485 things start peeling off.
All I (still) want for Christmas is the B model with the 4000 lb cookie.
EagleDNY
$.02
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The Mossie is a great ride but as Dan says its about how you fly it.
Use your energy to gain angles and a quick squirt of the trigger usually seals the deal.
The C of G needs to be fixed however I find it a problem mostly at high speed maneuver.
The flame dampeners should be removed since AH does not have a nighttime anymore they seem redundant.There will be a performance increase but I disagree with Kev on this issue as to how much.
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What's your disagreement based on?
Not meaning to nit-pick, but if you've got a different source, I'd be interested in seeing it.
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The 2 biggest issues with the Mossie right now are the CoG and some armor: which it carries in weight penalty of the a/c in game, but apparently gives ZERO protection to the crew. Any 30 caliber fire or heavier will pass right through the cockpit and PW or kill the crew in AH. I flew the Mossie on many sorties over at least 3 Tours in the MA, I know what im talking about. It has a "glass cockpit" despite the FB VI having armored glass, seats, and bulkheads (ahead of the pilot) in real life. I became an expert at landing a Mossie with a PW, which you have to do to fly it in game.
Im sure when its updated to AH2 they will address all of the above.:aok
All that being said it has an ability to be used as a day fighter in the right circumstances, its fast, especially low, has a good turn, and is heavily armed. With any a/c you fly it to its strengths. Mossie is no different.
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There's guys in AH who can make that mossie dance, never underestimate them, I rapidly discovered to teat them with the greatest respect.