Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => The O' Club => Topic started by: sluggish on December 27, 2006, 12:52:51 PM
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Scenario: Jack pulls into school parking lot with rifle in gun rack.
1973 - Vice Principal comes over, takes a look at Jack's rifle, goes to his car and gets his to show Jack.
2006 - School goes into lockdown, FBI called, Jack hauled off to jail and never sees his truck or gun again. Counselors called in for traumatized students and teachers.
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Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fist fight after school.
1973 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends. Nobody goes to jail, nobody arrested, nobody expelled.
2006 - Police called, SWAT team arrives, arrests Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it.
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Scenario: Jeffrey won't be still in class, disrupts other students.
1973 - Jeffrey sent to office and given a good paddling by Principal. Sits still in class.
2006 - Jeffrey given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. School gets extra money from state because Jeffrey has a disability.
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Scenario: Billy breaks a window in his father's car and his Dad gives him a whipping.
1973 - Billy is more careful next time, grows up normal, goes to college, and becomes a successful businessman.
2006 - Billy's Dad is arrested for child abuse. Billy removed to foster care and joins a gang. Billy's sister is told by state psychologist that she remembers being abused herself and their Dad goes to prison. Billy's mom has affair with psychologist.
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Scenario: Mark gets a headache and takes some headache medicine to school.
1973 - Mark shares headache medicine with Principal out on the smoking dock.
2006 - Police called, Mark expelled from school for drug violations. Car searched for drugs and weapons.
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Scenario: Mary turns up pregnant.
1973 - 5 High School Boys leave town. Mary does her senior year at a special school for expectant mothers.
2006 - Middle School Counselor calls Planned Parenthood, who notifies the ACLU. Mary is driven to the next state over and gets an abortion without her parent's consent or knowledge. Mary given condoms and told to be more careful next time.
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Scenario: Pedro fails high school English.
1973: Pedro goes to summer school, passes English, goes to college.
2006: Pedro's cause is taken up by state democratic party. Newspaper articles appear nationally explaining that teaching English as a requirement for graduation is racist. ACLU files class action lawsuit against state school system and Pedro's English teacher. English banned from core curriculum. Pedro given diploma anyway but ends up mowing lawns for a living because he can't speak English.
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Scenario: Johnny takes leftover firecrackers from the 4th of July, puts them in a model airplane paint bottle, blows up a red ant bed.
1973 - Ants die.
2006 - BATF, Homeland Security, FBI called. Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, FBI investigates parents, siblings removed from home, computers confiscated, Johnny's Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.
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Scenario: Johnny falls while running during recess and scrapes his knee. He is found crying by his teacher, Mary. Mary, hugs him to comfort him.
1973 - In a short time Johnny feels better and goes on playing.
2006 - Mary is accused of being a sexual predator and loses her job. She faces 3 years in State Prison.
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'land of the free, home of the brave" are just words in a song they play before sports games.
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My wife's a school psych. From her stories, this one nailed it:
Scenario: Jeffrey won't be still in class, disrupts other students.
1973 - Jeffrey sent to office and given a good paddling by Principal. Sits still in class.
2006 - Jeffrey given huge doses of Ritalin. Becomes a zombie. School gets extra money from state because Jeffrey has a disability.
in addendum:
2006 - Parents hire an "advocate" (aka lawyer) to sue the school for a costly special program for their child...whom they messed up in the first place for being crappy parents.
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Got to disagree just a bit with this one. Even in 1970 she would have stayed in class. Situation actually happened to one of the girls in my class but they got married after graduation.
Scenario: Mary turns up pregnant.
1973 - 5 High School Boys leave town. Mary does her senior year at a special school for expectant mothers.
2006 - Middle School Counselor calls Planned Parenthood, who notifies the ACLU. Mary is driven to the next state over and gets an abortion without her parent's consent or knowledge. Mary given condoms and told to be more careful next time.
Second option for 2006---
Mary is interviewed by social services, given a rent free apt. food stamps and a list of income per child born out of wedlock. Drops out of school and lives on welfare for the next 35 years with her 15 kids.
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Catholic School scenario
1973: nun slaps you and chokes you with your own tie because you didn't do your homework.
2006: nun slaps you and pinches your cheek, jerking it back and forth making a wet slapping sound because you didn't do your homework. She didn't choke you with your own tie because you are no longer required to wear one.
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Scenario: Johnny takes leftover firecrackers from the 4th of July, puts them in a model airplane paint bottle, blows up a red ant bed.
1973 - Ants die.
2006 - BATF, Homeland Security, FBI called. Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, FBI investigates parents, siblings removed from home, computers confiscated, Johnny's Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.
1971, pretty close, we were stationed at Fort Riley Ks, 4th of July. Someone calls the MPs cause someone was firing off fireworks (or causing some sort of disturbance). My mom dares us to throw a smoke bomb in the back of their jeep while they were off patroling the neighborhood on foot. We took the dare, and then ran like crazy for the hills behind the housing area, and hid in a ditch for about an hour. We heard them hollaring for us and looking but eventually they gave up
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gunther....exactly. and that is why we need a voucher system.
I can't vouch for the accuracy of the 2006 scenarios but I can say that being in school in the 60's... the early scenarios are exactly right according to my personal experiance.
lazs
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What a load of be-ollox. The worst bit is that it makes out 1973 to be part of the good old days. Well I was there and it sure as hell wasn't.
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Originally posted by cpxxx
What a load of be-ollox. The worst bit is that it makes out 1973 to be part of the good old days. Well I was there and it sure as hell wasn't.
maybe not in Ireland :)
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Originally posted by Gunthr
Catholic School scenario
1973: nun slaps you and chokes you with your own tie because you didn't do your homework.
2006: nun slaps you and pinches your cheek, jerking it back and forth making a wet slapping sound because you didn't do your homework. She didn't choke you with your own tie because you are no longer required to wear one.
I'm a Catholic school teacher. I'd be fired in a second if I ever slapped a child.
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Originally posted by Airscrew
Scenario: Johnny takes leftover firecrackers from the 4th of July, puts them in a model airplane paint bottle, blows up a red ant bed.
1973 - Ants die.
2006 - BATF, Homeland Security, FBI called. Johnny charged with domestic terrorism, FBI investigates parents, siblings removed from home, computers confiscated, Johnny's Dad goes on a terror watch list and is never allowed to fly again.
1971, pretty close, we were stationed at Fort Riley Ks, 4th of July. Someone calls the MPs cause someone was firing off fireworks (or causing some sort of disturbance). My mom dares us to throw a smoke bomb in the back of their jeep while they were off patroling the neighborhood on foot. We took the dare, and then ran like crazy for the hills behind the housing area, and hid in a ditch for about an hour. We heard them hollaring for us and looking but eventually they gave up
dial tone...beep bop bip bop bip beep beep...ring.....ring.....
"fort riley MP station, seargeant strickland speaking"
"yes, hello rick, i have a lead on that m80 in the jeep incident that has gone unsolved for all these years"
"oh really?!"...(sound of gun being loaded)
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Originally posted by JB88
dial tone...beep bop bip bop bip beep beep...ring.....ring.....
"fort riley MP station, seargeant strickland speaking"
"yes, hello, i have a lead on that m80 in the jeep incident that has gone unsolved for all these years"
"oh really?!"...(sound of gun being loaded)
"hello rick":rofl :rofl :rofl
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don't know what it was like in school past the 60's or what it is like today but the early scenarios were very accurate for the 60's. Have no idea what catholic school is like today but if a nun or a priest isn't teaching then it isn't like it was.... even so... I bet it is a much better place of learning than any public school around.
In the sixties we took our rifles to school to go to the range and get NRA marksmanship training after being school bused to the range.
Boxing and wrestling were PE required courses for boys.
disruptive students were expelled.
We said the pledge of alligence and I believe the word god was mentioned and no one got too upset. I think that at one point they said that if you didn't want to say it you could simply sit quietly while it was being recited.
we drove $50 cars to school and payed maybe twice that to insure em for a year on the parents policy. You could ride a motorcycle at 15 1/2 and no one told you that you had to wear a helmet or wear a seatbelt in a car.
there were maybe 1 in 30 people in school who had divorced parents.
A fight would draw a hundred "spectators" after school and after you knocked the guy down or gave him a good beating you let him be.
lazs
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I'm a Catholic school teacher. I'd be fired in a second if I ever slapped a child. - Eskimo
iknow Eskimo. The 2006 scenario was hyperbole showing the higher disciplinary standards of parochial schools even today. btw, I lay teachers, i know it is a bit of a sacrifice for some.
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I think you missed an intervining time here:
Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fist fight after school.
1973 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends. Nobody goes to jail, nobody arrested, nobody expelled.
1988- - Johnny, having seen "Colors" one time too many, goes to his truck, retrieves rifle from gun-rack, and shoots Mark for "dissin'" him.
2006 - Police called, SWAT team arrives, arrests Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it.
Not to say that the current glorification of america is a good thing for anything.
-Sik
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Private schools have a far better record than public schools yet progressives continue to deny the poor an opportunity through vouchers to get a decent education. There can be only one reason for this and it is the fact that the secular progressives will lose their ability to indoctrinate a generation if they do not keep them in public schools. Pretty sad.
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The biggest difference between public and private schools are the “customers”. Not all private and Catholic schools have good records; the ones that receive financial aid and have a majority of students from low socioeconomic “families” almost always struggle. Most private and Catholic schools that do better do so because the parents who send their kids to those schools care about their kids education and are generally better educated and financially successful themselves. Socioeconomic segregation determines the success of a school. My part of Ohio is densely populated; some entire cities are wealthy, and others are poor. Every wealthy city has public schools that rival the very successful Catholic school that I teach at in almost any measure of quality. The poorer cities struggle with the exception of individual schools that are fed by wealthier neighborhoods.
The second biggest difference is that Catholic and private schools usually have better discipline because they have the option of tossing out the rotten apples and are not as hindered by laws that prevent reasonable discipline. I’ve taught in both public and private schools; I can attest that the teachers are pretty much the same.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
I'm a Catholic school teacher. I'd be fired in a second if I ever slapped a child.
Seen and experienced the wrath of Catholic school nuns, first hand. They wailed on and at kindergartners and first graders at my school. That's why they always go out in pairs.
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Originally posted by eskimo2
I’ve taught in both public and private schools; I can attest that the teachers are pretty much the same.
you may have taught in both but I went to both and I have to say the teachers are totally different in the public school system then they were in the Catholic schools I attended.
from the size of the classrooms to the salaries the teachers pulled in to the amount of "give a crap" the average teacher had about his/her students, the Catholic school system was better hands down ...
you must have taught in one those public schools that sat in the middle of a country club like the 8th grade one I went to in Severna Park MD. It was as modern as the Catholic school. Now let me tell you about the 7th grade "center" I had the joy of attending in Jax Fl back in about 72...... now there was an example of the public school system at its finest ...LOL
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The public school that I taught at in Colorado Springs was a high-risk school. Most of the students were on free or reduced lunch, had only one parent, moved or were evicted often, had a parent in jail, a lot of kids had never met their dads. Only 4 parents out of a school of 600 were involved in the PTA, many parents never attended parent/teacher conferences or had no idea what their lids were doing or learning. I attended funeral of a parent of one of my first graders every year. My last year at that school I had 21 out of 23 students on Individualized Learning Plans (meaning they flunked the beginning of the year first grade test). My kids liked school and liked me because I never yelled at them or hit them, I gave them attention, showed that I cared and never was drunk. School was where they felt safe and loved.
For the most part we had two kinds of teachers: There were new ones who were just trying to get their foot in the door so they could work their way “up” to a more affluent and “easier” school. Then there were the experienced teachers who could have worked elsewhere but chose to stay where they really mattered. I made more as a public school teacher and most of the teachers that I worked with were better educated and trained. The common traits of the teachers that I’ve worked with in both public and Catholic schools are that they all work hard, are professional and care very much about their students. In each school there have been one or two who didn’t put forth quite as much effort as the rest. All teachers that I’ve known put in extra hours beyond what they are paid; anywhere from 125% to 200%. The Catholic school that I teach at has class sizes of up to 30 whenever possible. More students mean more money. The public school that I taught at had classes from 21 to 27.
Although I now work in a Catholic school, I feel that I was doing God’s work more-so as a high-risk public school teacher.
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eskimo... I am not saying you are wrong about the difference in the parents that send their kids to catholic or private schools... I will say that I believe that if parents had a real choice... if they had vouchers that they would care more...
It has been proven that even the worst of the worst socioeconomic deprived kids do better in private school and that the parent or parents get more involved..
What is the point in the public schools where parents are allways to blame for the schools and the teachers failures? Parents despair of having any say in public schools.
lazs
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With vouchers, many things will happen:
Some students from poorer but caring families will attend Catholic and private schools. These kids will be better off and will thrive.
There will also be a number of families who care at least enough to make a choice and will choose to send their kids to a Catholic or private school. Some of these kids will also thrive, but many will make little effort and some will be rather disruptive. Just a few of these kids in a good school can really mess things up. At my school each year we usually get a few junior high students who have transferred from public schools. Some do well, but many cause more disruption than the rest of the class combined. These are the only kids who end up being expelled. Keep in mind that many students are also turned away each year because they have indicators that they will be nothing but trouble. If vouchers happen, some voucher students will drag Catholic and private schools down. To what degree is debatable.
The most frightening things that may come with vouchers are laws that now screw up public schools. If vouchers come with stipulations, Catholic and private schools will be ruined.
On the good side of vouchers, many Catholic and private schools struggle financially and are closing due to a lack of funding and enrollment. Vouchers could help these schools greatly.
Parents are not to blame for the schools' failures; they are to blame for their children’s failures.
“Parents despair of having any say in public schools.”? - So do public school teachers. Laws leave their hands tied.
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Vouchers are about equal opportunity. Sure, some kids just don't want to learn or behave appropriately. You can provide a disciplined environment for them but they may still rebel. Not much else you can do for them. However, many will greatly benefit from a more disciplined enrionment that are presently stuck in inner city jokes called schools and throwing more money at them will serve only to waste more money.
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Originally posted by sluggish
Scenario: Johnny and Mark get into a fist fight after school.
1973 - Crowd gathers. Mark wins. Johnny and Mark shake hands and end up best friends. Nobody goes to jail, nobody arrested, nobody expelled.
2006 - Police called, SWAT team arrives, arrests Johnny and Mark. Charge them with assault, both expelled even though Johnny started it.
December 2006 - Kevin decides after months of verbal sparring that he's tired of Alex's mouth and beats him to a pulp. It is easily accomplished. Kevin is at least six inches taller and fifty pounds heavier than Alex. Alex ends up in the emergency room requiring fifteen stitches to repair the damage to his face and later will schedule dental reconstruction. Kevin develops a massive infection (necrotizing faciitis) to his right hand and knuckles as a result of the contact between oral bacteria and his bloodied fists. Last word was that Kevin had about twenty staples on his hand and with any luck at all, he won't lose his fingers. With even more luck, he may learn to keep his hands to his moronic self.
In 1973 it was just a fist fight. It wasn't some ******* kid trying to hospitalize another.
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All I know..
Is when one of my kids, when I havem, brags about how many rifles etc. that are at his house, and the history behind them, and is then escorted off school premisis via the unmanned police tron, I'll be proud to transmit my praise to him via an inter-cranular stimulation device..
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Scenario: Mary turns up pregnant.
2006 - Middle School Counselor calls Planned Parenthood, who notifies the ACLU. Mary is driven to the next state over and gets an abortion without her parent's consent or knowledge. Mary given condoms and told to be more careful next time.
This is how it should read:
2006 - Mary is driven to the next state over and gets an abortion without her parent's consent or knowledge.One of the teachers at mary's school is arrested for underage sex with a minor, as it turns out the same teacher has had sex with many other students.
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Vouchers are about getting a free ride. They see a Lexus but can only afford a Kia. Talk about socialism.
What makes you think that it will solve any of the problems? Any student would be allowed to attend any school with the voucher system. Problems will just migrate from public to private. You would actually be encouraging public problems to enter private schools.
It's not like only jocks will go to school A, only smart kids will go to school B, and all the problem kids go to school C. They will go to whatever school they want because they have a voucher. It will cause overcrowding and lower the standard of education.
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Originally posted by rpm
Vouchers are about getting a free ride. They see a Lexus but can only afford a Kia. Talk about socialism.
What makes you think that it will solve any of the problems? Any student would be allowed to attend any school with the voucher system. Problems will just migrate from public to private. You would actually be encouraging public problems to enter private schools.
It's not like only jocks will go to school A, only smart kids will go to school B, and all the problem kids go to school C. They will go to whatever school they want because they have a voucher. It will cause overcrowding and lower the standard of education.
I guess you don't realize that we are already spending about 10k per year per public school student. Vouchers aren't spending something we aren't already spending. In fact, most private schools do a much better job at educating for less per student. Notice I said in "fact". If you want to debate this particiular issue I'll be glad to compare stats with you. Public schools are a miserable failure at educating everything except the secular progessive agenda.
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There are no "facts" that private will out perform public if every public student will be allowed to attend private. That is unless you have some type of crystal ball. Current private stats are on children from affluent parents and neighborhoods. Throw 70% of public students into the pool and those "facts" will change.
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Originally posted by lukster
I guess you don't realize that we are already spending about 10k per year per public school student. Vouchers aren't spending something we aren't already spending. In fact, most private schools do a much better job at educating for less per student. Notice I said in "fact". If you want to debate this particiular issue I'll be glad to compare stats with you. Public schools are a miserable failure at educating everything except the secular progessive agenda.
The day you open private schools to the vouchers is the same day that the private schools drop to the level of the public schools because they aren't able to handle the load.
You're just going to make the private students suffer on a level equivelent with the public school kids and make private school a waste for everyone... Thus degrading the entire system.
Nobody wins in that scenario... At least today if the public school blows, some people have a way out... In the voucher world, if the public school blows, the whole country becomes stupid.
If someone can afford gasoline, do you get mad if they can drive further than you? Should the government provide it for free? Or should you just get off your freakin couch and work?
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Originally posted by Red Tail 444
Seen and experienced the wrath of Catholic school nuns, first hand. They wailed on and at kindergartners and first graders at my school. That's why they always go out in pairs.
Not much need for wailing or shouting from the nuns at the school I went to. They didn't have too. Their impliments of dicipline and control on the 5 to 11 year olds were bamboo canes, rulers and leather straps... they were no ordinary straps either, they were proper engraved "strapping straps". Either the nuns had a leather fetish or the Catholic church had a factory somwhere that made the sodding things, coz I had one old biddy of a teacher when I was 8 that had a whole draw full of them in her desk. She would bring a new one to school about once a month and display it just to put the chits up the class.
The nuns were free and easy when it came to thumping kids but they wern't stupid either, they only did their hitting in the morning, that way the tell tale marks that parents would notice had most of the school day to disapate. That meant that if you did something to piss them off (surprisingly easy) in the afternoon you went home that day knowing you were going to cop it the next morning.
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<------ Currently enrold in public highschool. Most of those are spot on, but in my school most people are in gangs or just plane insane, so the teachers are too afraid of the students to suspend them. We litterally have 4 police officer assigned to our school permanently. It makes schooling.... exciting. And yeah, public schools are crap. In 8th grade I could regularly stump my teachers in their own subjects.
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eskimo.. pretty much agree with you and at first there would be a lot of students expelled from private schools... that is as it should be.
The fact is that many of the kids in school should not be there. Even if they stay (at everyones expense) they will "graduate" as functional illiterates. There is no point in making everyone suffer for them to gain nothing. within a decade the system will turn around.
Public schools will get better private schools a little worse with some of the requirements that will come with vouchers. Mostly tho... the private schools will not be hampered by the social engineering that is public schools. Public schools will have to compete.
vouchers are socialism just as public school is but... at least it is functional socialism... socialism with a choice or two. Public schools are pure socialism and indoctrinization by one state source.
Voucher schools would be required to show academic achievement and it would raise the bar for public schools. Public schools would have to expel or die and they would either change or die a well deserved death.
No matter what tho... there would be layers of private school... some would charge little and others a lot. Parents willing to pay extra will allways have a better deal.
eskimo... parents are not to blame for the schools failures but they are for their childs failures? How exactly does that work? where do you draw the line? If my kid is not being taught how to read and write... if the class is full of kids who can't read or write and the school keeps pandering to their level and moving them up into my childs grade.... is that not the schools fault? If an illiterate or non english speaker can pass the achievement test... is not my sons lack of learning the schools fault?
If the school charges twice as much as a private school and gets worse results... is it not the schools fault? If the teachers are getting full time pay for a part time job... and fight every effort to make it fair... is it not the schools or teachers fault?
lazs
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Originally posted by lazs2
eskimo.. pretty much agree with you and at first there would be a lot of students expelled from private schools... that is as it should be.
The fact is that many of the kids in school should not be there. Even if they stay (at everyones expense) they will "graduate" as functional illiterates. There is no point in making everyone suffer for them to gain nothing. within a decade the system will turn around under a voucher system... it would simply roll back (for a while) the excess and silliness of public schools.
Public schools will get better private schools a little worse with some of the requirements that will come with vouchers. Mostly tho... the private schools will not be hampered by the social engineering that is public schools. Public schools will have to compete.
vouchers are socialism just as public school is but... at least it is functional socialism... socialism with a choice or two. Public schools are pure socialism and indoctrinization by one state source.
Voucher schools would be required to show academic achievement and it would raise the bar for public schools. Public schools would have to expel or die and they would either change or die a well deserved death.
No matter what tho... there would be layers of private school... some would charge little and others a lot. Parents willing to pay extra will allways have a better deal.
eskimo... parents are not to blame for the schools failures but they are for their childs failures? How exactly does that work? where do you draw the line? If my kid is not being taught how to read and write... if the class is full of kids who can't read or write and the school keeps pandering to their level and moving them up into my childs grade.... is that not the schools fault? If an illiterate or non english speaker can pass the achievement test... is not my sons lack of learning the schools fault?
If the school charges twice as much as a private school and gets worse results... is it not the schools fault? If the teachers are getting full time pay for a part time job... and fight every effort to make it fair... is it not the schools or teachers fault?
lazs
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oops...how did I quote myself?
lazs
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Reynolds:
I lived in Hawaii for a year and attended U of H / HCC for two semesters. Please don’t take this personally, but Hawaii is light years behind the mainland when it comes to education. By the casual paragraph that you have written I can tell are brighter or have managed to learn much more than your Hawaiian peers. I studied fire science at HCC with graduates of the Honolulu school system; I only knew one other student from the mainland. Some of the students I knew said that kids graduated from high school without being able to read. They said that most teachers worked a second full time job just to make ends meet. (For any reader who have not lived in Hawaii; it is expensive beyond belief.) Most everyone spoke pidgin and could not speak or write a proper sentence to save their life. The director of the program insisted that all students write research papers and this just about killed most everyone. The majority of students dropped out.
The Hawaiian culture does not place value on education. The newspapers and TV news broadcast were full of grammar and usage errors. Many “Professionals” spoke pidgin and would fail dismally if they tried to work in most parts of the mainland. Honolulu and other troubled pockets throughout the US have major problems with education. We can blame the districts, schools, teachers, parents or even the culture; perhaps varying degrees of all of these.
Public school systems work very well in some areas and even in entire cities.
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Lazs,
When I taught first grade in Colorado I recommended retention of some students. That’s all that I could do: recommend retention. I could show the parents evidence that their child was way behind but if the parents wanted Johnny bumped up to the second grade anyway, he was moving on. Many laws are written so that parents have all the power.
I have seen teachers with high but reasonable expectations fail a good percentage of their students when they don’t do their work. Parents flip out and complain to administrators; administrators figure that if so many kids are failing that teacher must not be doing their job well. The teacher is either let go or threatened to be fired.
I had a child who missed over half of the school year because his mom was too strung out to get him to school. My principal, school psychologist and I followed all of the steps to get him back in school (wrote letters, made home visits, reports to children’s services, and so on). The kid would show up for a week or two and then go truant. Then we’d have to start the entire process again. I’d see him one or two weeks and then nothing for a month, over and over. This consumed much time and created a huge amount of paper work. We did everything that we could legally do but laws are written to favor parent and children’s rights to strongly that educators can have a heck of a time enforcing what should be common sense rules. That kid never showed up at the end of the year and missed the testing; had he showed up he most certainly would have failed. Either way that child is listed as one who the school system failed.
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Lazs,
Imagine that you and a competitor bake apple pies for a living. Your competitor is allowed first pick of the best apples in the orchard. You get the rest and are required by law to use the apples that have fallen off the trees, have worms and are now rotting on the ground. I don’t care how good of a crust you make, your pies are not going to be a s good.
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Originally posted by rpm
There are no "facts" that private will out perform public if every public student will be allowed to attend private. That is unless you have some type of crystal ball. Current private stats are on children from affluent parents and neighborhoods. Throw 70% of public students into the pool and those "facts" will change.
Let's not "throw" anyone anywhere. I certainly don't want our bloated beaureaucratic governement, especially it's incompetent educational arm, taking charge of private schools. If a student can't or won't conform to a private schools standards then it's out the door to another school willing to take them on.
It's not a crystal ball that tells me that lax discipline, low standards, and hidden agendas result in the mess we are in today but simply 20/20 hindsight.
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I've heard how nuns are tough and mean yet all of the few people I know who complain about these strict disciplanarians are hard workers and successful. Rather than train our naturally rowdy boys through discipline it's much easier to dope 'em up which is what we do in our schools today. Makes me sick.
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I agree with your point, lukster. I attended parochial school all my young life. I was a troubled kid that got into a lot of trouble in school and I got a lot of discipline at the hands of the nuns. I can confirm that the nuns had 2 pairs of boxing gloves in the school supply closet if you wanted to fight someone at lunch time in the gym. The bleachers would fill up fast. We had to take 3 years of latin and go to mass every morning.
I didn't get good grades. I barely graduated. I think there were only 2 knuckledheads ranked lower than me in my class. But something clicked for me a couple years later, I guess I matured a little. I somehow got probationary acceptence into college. I found out D's in my parochial school were equivilent to C's or C+'s in the public schools - at least I wasn't as bad off as I had thought. I went on to get my degree with a magna cum laude for achieving a 4.85 grade point average. Then I became a police officer and I was so proud that I called the Mother nun at the nun's retirement convent to tell her about it. (She said she always knew I would eventually amount to something, but I'm not sure I believe her)
So anyway, I rate my education at that particular parochial school, taught by the Sisters of The Immaculate Heart of Mary at that particular time, to be far superior to the public education in the area. Even though the public school guys called us "curtain crawlers" and "tie boys" most all of my classmates seem to have become productive people. I do think Eskimo makes a good point about the socio-economic environment though. We only had about 5 black kids in our school, for example, and they were not poor.
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I believe that Rolex, to a degree. So much has changed in the culture, especially in education. Educators are now mostly liberal. Educators are mostly unionized. Educators are politizised because of the unions. It didn't exist before. Educators allow groups like
GLSEN (http://www.stevekaneshow.com/glsen.htm) to come into schools and teach fifth and sixth graders what it is to anally explore one another, or what "fisting" means, for example. There are real differences. The PC crap alone has crippled the US education system in my opinion.
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eskimo... this is silly... you are saying that if only a lot of students get a benifiet from vouchers that it is not worth it... you admit that public schools are out of control but seem to be saying "that's just the way it is... no solution possible"
That any solution and any competition will just make things worse.
Your analodgy is faulty... everyone gets to draw from the same orchard. If one pie company roots out the bad apples and nurtures the good ones and cares for them... and... has more pies made and better ones than the pie company that simply keeps all the bad apples in the same barrel as the good ones until all are ruined.... and it has very few, and substandard pies made as a result... then
Everything is as it should be in my opinion... seems the second company might look at the successful companies methods and immulate them... seems that competition in this (as in everything else in the world) would improve the product.
Certainly there would be a period of adjustment while the social engineers wrung their hands and pointed fingers and played blame games but in the end... the improved results would be there for all to see and everyone would ignore the hand wringers... People would have more than a few studies to look at and people would demand more of the failed and bloated public school monopoly.
lazs
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First of all, I have not said that I don’t believe that vouchers are all bad; only that there are negatives and a voucher system would be risky, especially if it came with strings. With the same strings that have hurt public schools, vouchers could wipe out all benefits of parochial and private schools.
Second, I have not said that public schools are out of control. I have said that laws make it nearly impossible for teachers to teach and students to learn in many situations and places. Thousands of public schools throughout our nation have a better success rate than the majority of parochial and private schools. In spite of hindering laws, many public schools do well, especially those that get the “good apples”.
My analogy is great. Take a city with some parochial and private schools as well as public schools. The parochial and private schools already have a better success rate mainly because they draw students from “better” families. Hand out vouchers and the new voucher students will mainly be comprised of the “better” public school families. What’s left for the public schools? A lot of rotten apples mixed with apples of various qualities. These rotten apples will drag the public schools down and then people who don’t understand the connection will assume that the public schools have failed. The problem is that the public schools are stuck with the rotten apples but are being compared to the parochial and private schools.
Go ahead and make all schools parochial and private and tie them up with the same laws that now hinder public schools. What do you do with the students who don’t get accepted? Turn away tens of thousands and you end up with a major crisis. Require parochial and private schools to accept all students and then the parochial and private schools end up in the same situation that many public schools are now in.
Vouchers are fine if they don’t come with strings and as long as people don’t blame the public schools for producing rotten apple pies. Public schools need the same opportunity to kick out the bad apples before they spoil the bunch.
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Parents are responsible for their children. All my life, I have been in public schools. If it werent for my parents, I would be illiterate too, I wouldnt give a **** about history, and I would generally be the most annoying, and stupid little **** you have ever heard. Thankfully, my parents gave a crap, and taught me to read themselves before I entered kindergarten. They took my education into their own hands, and even though they had full time jobs, they took a few minutes every night to read a book with me (Pretending to fall asleep and forcing me to read the end if I wanted to see the outcome) and thus when I was in 6th grade I was reading at a 10th grade level. Because my parents gave a **** im smarter than even some of my teachers, and definately smarter than 98% of my class. Those parents I have seen who dont give a ****, have children who are/have:
a) failing most classes
b) getting arrested on a daily basis
c) been stabbed/shot
d) are drug addicts
e) are generally nothing but a failure, and a burden on society.
Parents make the difference. Trust me, I see it every single day.
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I have to agree with Reynolds on the main point of his post. It's the parents that are critical to education more so than the teacher or even the school.
The main critical point of education is the student. As long as the student refuses to learn no school, no book, no teacher will make that studeent put a damn thing in their head.
Part of this conumdrum is the fault of the "new way" to help kids by insuring their "self esteem" is supported even though they have done nothing to deserve it. Passing failure on is no way to encourage success. Kids know that they can get to the next grade by doing exactly nothing. I've seen it in action where a kid who refuses to do anything more than put his name on a test is passed on through 3 grades. His response when I asked why was that his dad (who had to leave work every day because Jr would not go to school on his own) was a supervisor in a construction company and would give him a job. That and he absolutely knew that he would not be held back.
Kids are successful because they learn that work is the only way to gain real success. Merely handing it to them is training them that the world does indeed owe them a living. It's a recipe for social disaster and a welfare based nation. Living for a handout is not living, it's merely existing.
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Originally posted by lukster
I've heard how nuns are tough and mean yet all of the few people I know who complain about these strict disciplanarians are hard workers and successful. Rather than train our naturally rowdy boys through discipline it's much easier to dope 'em up which is what we do in our schools today. Makes me sick.
You’re not left handed are you?
If you are, and you had of went to my old school you could have expected a nun to wrap you over the knuckles with the edge of a one yard ruler every time you picked a pen up with you left hand. It was their way of converting lefties to the righteous right. That's just one example of what took place as discipline under the nuns.
There's a difference between disciplining rowdy or misbehaving teenagers (that's what corporal punishment was for) and terrorising snot nosed 5 to 11 year olds. Not all the nuns were like that, but the ones that were seemed to be in the majority, and it wasn't so much because they were tough and mean but simply because most of them weren’t cut out to be teachers in the first place. They didn't have the same level of training as teachers in the state run schools and to put it bluntly some them just plain detested kids, especially boys.
My experience goes back nearly 40 years so things have changed a bit since then. Private schools cleaned their act up their act in the 70's. They had to, many of them were almost medieval in comparison with the state schools at the time. My old school nearly closed due to so many parents pulling their kids out of it to send to state schools, but the parish kept it open by kicking the nuns out and hiring qualified teachers outside of the church.
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Originally posted by Maverick
I have to agree with Reynolds on the main point of his post. It's the parents that are critical to education more so than the teacher or even the school.
The main critical point of education is the student. As long as the student refuses to learn no school, no book, no teacher will make that studeent put a damn thing in their head.
Part of this conumdrum is the fault of the "new way" to help kids by insuring their "self esteem" is supported even though they have done nothing to deserve it. Passing failure on is no way to encourage success. Kids know that they can get to the next grade by doing exactly nothing. I've seen it in action where a kid who refuses to do anything more than put his name on a test is passed on through 3 grades. His response when I asked why was that his dad (who had to leave work every day because Jr would not go to school on his own) was a supervisor in a construction company and would give him a job. That and he absolutely knew that he would not be held back.
Kids are successful because they learn that work is the only way to gain real success. Merely handing it to them is training them that the world does indeed owe them a living. It's a recipe for social disaster and a welfare based nation. Living for a handout is not living, it's merely existing.
I couldnt agree more! I have even asked fellow students why they dont bother ever doing anything, to which the average response is: "Becuase I dont have to. They will pass me any way"
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Originally posted by lukster
Let's not "throw" anyone anywhere. I certainly don't want our bloated beaureaucratic governement, especially it's incompetent educational arm, taking charge of private schools. If a student can't or won't conform to a private schools standards then it's out the door to another school willing to take them on.
It's not a crystal ball that tells me that lax discipline, low standards, and hidden agendas result in the mess we are in today but simply 20/20 hindsight.
Private schools will have to accept the students. They have a voucher.
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Originally posted by rpm
Private schools will have to accept the students. They have a voucher.
No way. Lemme rephrase that, hell no. If private schools are forced to accept students by the government then they are no longer private. A voucher is nothing more than the money parents pay in taxes simply made available to them so they can choose the best school for their kids.
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eskimo.. I agree that for vouchers to work the only strings that could be attached to them would be academic.
This would improve all schools as parents and taxpayers would see within a very short time that expelling the "bad apples" the ones who gain nothing by being there but destroy the chances of everyone else... that by getting rid of them the whole system changes.
Regardless... competition and new ideas are allways good things. The public school system is broken because it is a government run monopoly... it won't get better so long as there is no meaningful competition... the teachers union has a stranglehold on any real reform from the other end.
your example of parents bieng able to pass their children does not condem the parents so much as it does the faulty politicaly run institution that would allow it.
And let's get honest here... schools get money based on enrollment.. they keep kids that are worthless to pad their budget. Many systems won't pay for kids that are held back.. that is what is causing the problem. Private schools get paid per student too but they are honest and wise enough to know that they can't do their job by greedily keeping every student no matter how disruptive.
No matter what... they wouldn't just take every law that governs public schools and transfer it to the private... they are not stupid enough to try... even the most socialist amoung us would wonder when the private schools said "no thanks" Just as habitat for humanity said "no thanks" to the strings and the money until forced to by jimmy carter and co. they have ruined habitat for humanity.
Public schools... the schooling system is not habitat tho... it is too large and affects to many of us... that is why they can't allow any light on the subject... that is why they can allow no choice... as soon as any choice is offered... the wool comes off peoples eyes... Everything they do to sabotage the voucher system will be out in the open and discussed.
But... maybe.. as you say.. there is a public school somewhere that offers both achievement and economy... it will do fine. the private school using vouchers built next to it will do better for cheaper tho i8n my opinion.
It is (to keep the apples theme) apples to apples... good neighborhood.... the public schools do good but the private one next door does just a little better for cheaper... bad neighborhood... the public school does worse than the private one next to it. That is the way the studies I have seen seem to run.
you want apples to oranges... the best students in the best neighborhoods in public schools with the most resources against the cheapest private in the worst neighborhoods.
In any case... the public school system is a failing one and getting worse while getting more expensive and all the institution and it's union teachers cronies can do is point the finger of blame at the parents and kids.
lazs