Aces High Bulletin Board
General Forums => Aces High General Discussion => Topic started by: DREDger on December 29, 2006, 09:20:18 AM
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Of all the things that people whine about most, it is the ubiquitous HO, the head on. I want to try to set the record staight as I see it.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING, as ONE PERSON HO'ing ANOTHER.
The fact is, it takes two people to engage in the HO. You get two stubborn players, going nose to nose, neither wants to give. Inexorably, one gets the better of the other, or they collide, and the whining starts. Each one claiming the other of breaking some sacred code of conduct by refusing to yield or get out of the way. (As if one player clearly has the ROW in any particular case)
If it wasn't so annoying to read the banter on 200, it would be hilarious. Think about it, each guy is blaming the other for doing exactly what they were doing themselves.
It is so easy to avoid a HO if you really want to, a slight jink here and there and you are out of harms way. Especially if you have an e-advantage, all you have to do is go up.
Sometimes, I willingly engage in a HO if I feel the odds are in my favor. For example if I have 110 and the other a P51B, you bet I will. Or if I up an IL-2 on a heavily capped base; if anyone is dumb or greedy (or impatient) enuf to HO me, oh yes, you bet.
Anyway, that is my take on it. If I go into an HO situation, I put my odds at about 50/50 of surviving, and 99% chance of taking serious damage. If I get killed, you certainly won't hear me crying about it. If I win, you certainly won't see me gloating about it.
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I agree with this. If somebody challenges me properly, I won't fire at them on the pass (and I expect no shots in my direction all the same).
However, if it's just a random encounter and there's a pass, there will be rounds fired at your windshield and engine. I don't care who you are, because if you don't challenge me to a duel and you do a head-on pass, you're getting exactly what you deserve.
It's too much trouble to stay alive when you have to follow some idiotic "rules" that have no place in reality, much less a game. When I pass like that, I expect to be shot at. Everyone else should expect the same.
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Why I love my FW cant be a pimp without my hos. :-p
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I think we need a clarification on the deffinition of what a HO is.
To me a HO is when you make an head on merge and the enemy comes screaming in guns a blazing !! If in a 1 on 1 I'll would like to see all head on merges guns cold. The fight should be who can saddle up and then fire to win the fight. I can see when in a furball, ya take any shot ya can, but in a one on one its just a cheap shot.
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Originally posted by The Fugitive
I think we need a clarification on the deffinition of what a HO is.
To me a HO is when you make an head on merge and the enemy comes screaming in guns a blazing !! If in a 1 on 1 I'll would like to see all head on merges guns cold. The fight should be who can saddle up and then fire to win the fight. I can see when in a furball, ya take any shot ya can, but in a one on one its just a cheap shot.
A true "Head-On" is when both planes have a guns solution on each other ... that means a virtual 0 degree deflection shot for both planes.
Anything outside of that is nothing more than a deflection shot (and most, previous to the merge, is a very high deflection shot).
As stated above, a jink here and there will spoil most attempts. I love to see a guy shooting at 1K to 800 out ... that just leads to a "lead turn" and usually within 2 turns and sometimes 1 turn (if he sticks around) ... he is dead.
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A HO is a guy that is trying for that face shot because he hasn't a clue as to do when he misses! Which is what I find when dodging the numerous dweebs that attempt to HO me! :D
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Originally posted by SkyRock
A HO is a guy that is trying for that face shot because he hasn't a clue as to do when he misses! Which is what I find when dodging the numerous dweebs that attempt to HO me! :D
And then you have the SkyRock interpretation ... :rolleyes: ... ;)
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When I lose its a no-skill HO by that dweeb, when I win its a beautifully timed front quarter shot.
shamus
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I recall about two months before the arena changes (split). I rolled a Hurricane Mk1. I was in a 1 vs 1 and this 110G2 came into the fight. I ho'd him deliberately on two passes. After the first pass, he was talking trash on 200 after I put a 2 sec burst into his left wing root. The moron went for the HO again, and guess who won? The whines on 200 were perfect. I then shot the other con down, and landed.
Moral of the story? Just because you have 30mm, does NOT mean you can properly place the rounds where they need to go.
Dred, you are wrong on so many levels I won't even bother responding. All I will say is this, some can only HO. They are afraid to BnZ, or turn. Slap and SR have pretty much summed it up perfectly.
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Dred, you are wrong on so many levels I won't even bother responding
Well I think you did respond chief. Curiously, I don't think we are in disagreement though, so I am not sure the basis for your remark.
I generally will not HO against planes or avoid it if possible. Not because I find it to be some breach of ettiquette or AH creedo, but because chances of surviving are so nominal. I usually fight the B&Z and just keep my E, stay patient and find a better shot.
The point I am making is when 2 planes are merging head on, it is both players fault for carrying it through. There isn't 'one' guy who engaged in the HO, and the other some hapless victim. Both are to blame, both should know it, and both, for the love of god, should shut up about it.
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Originally posted by SlapShot
And then you have the SkyRock interpretation ... :rolleyes: ... ;)
Slap........all uR Sk1LLz R belong 2 ME!:D
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I smell Noobs.
Why even bother to take a "high deflection" shot when you can play "saddle up" and actually win the fight. I guess some people just want the "kill" and not the "fight". It's their 14.95 blah blah blah egocentric, blah blah blah.:)
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not everyone is in a 500 mph 10k dive frog.......as a true veteran of being the bait for timid hordes, yes there is and always will be ho's. It never fails that even in a 5 on one every single con will attempt a ho shot. When im doin 110 mph hangin on the prop its kinda hard to avoid the 3 nikis tryin to ho..
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I love firing my all cartoon bullits into all your cartoon faces :D
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1 thing your right about 99% of ho whines is guy losing the ho. 1% is guy fighting another guy and plane comes into fight and ho's you. Now 20% of this 1% is guy trying to save another countrymen.
Headon shots were a part of real combat and taught in flight manuals. in 1939-45.
But in aces high so many call deflection shots ho. which happens proball half of ho engagements. Some have said I ho'ed them until they saw films posted, the ones you respect will admit they are wrong. The others who cares.
Now the funny ho od collision ones are the guys going for ho on bomber. formation which is fireing more 50's at you then any plane in game, and they get collision message in cockpit blame bomber pilot. This is the ones that make me laugh the most. Even had pilots whine i was ho'ing them in a bomber.
You want to never be ho'ed on merge fly only duels. Because as long as game is here Ho's will never go away. should they no it was apart of ww2 which this GAME is recreating. Some pilots in ww2 use to tweak planes to crab in air just to ho other planes, and ho's were not done by newbies in ww2 Yeager shot down ho'ing 190 and i know of p51 pilot ho'ing 262 for jet kill both pilots died on impacting each other. And if you want to check my facts on ho's just do search and you'll see my father's flight manual posted on boards explaining ho to Do headon attacks of planes not bombers.
Whining about ho's, running or type of plane person flys just makes you look stupid on 200 not pilot your talking about
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Originally posted by DREDger
THERE IS NO SUCH THING, as ONE PERSON HO'ing ANOTHER.
The fact is, it takes two people to engage in the HO.
Three observations:
1) People's interpretations of what constitutes a "HO" are different. Some consider any "beak to beak" pass or forward quarter shots a cheap "HO", I don't subscribe to this. When starting defensive, taking an adversary 180 out is a very basic tenet of ACM and the first step to neutralizing any angles advantage he may have. Taking him close aboard in the process eliminates turning room and denies him an early turn. Firing a forward quarter shot is a perfectly valid method to throw the adversary off his gameplan and force him to maneuver in response to you. This is a 100% legitimate tactic.
2) HO's can, and often are generated by one party and cannot be avoided by the other. For instance, when the target is engaged in a turning fight, often B&Zers ("Pickers") will dive in without adequately considering the maneuvers of the intended target. This usually occurs when the picker is turning an opposite circle to the target and often ends up creating a HO situation where the target has virtually nothing to say about it, particularly when he's low e, it's just bad planning and execution by the attacker. If I'm in a turning fight and another aircraft dives in I will be very happy to blast him in the snot locker if he comes within my zone of fire. I was in a 1v5 a couple of months ago. I was in a Zeke and had another Zeke on my tail for the majority of the fight. The other four A/C kept B&Zing me and I took out all four of them with HO's and lost the Zeke when he hit the trees. 200 was a riot afterwards because I fought so unfairly.
3) What I consider to be a cheap HO are those that simply put their nose on the target and hold the trigger down starting at D2.5 with no attempt at all to maneuver except to keep the pipper on. I believe these are the guys that are counting on their rounds to "clear the airspace" in front of them and it involves almost no skill. These aren't guys in the middle of a fight or defensive after being jumped, many times they're simply some hi-speed guy who starts his HO at icon range and never stops. These types of HO's usually can be avoided but it's obvious they have no clue what to do after the pass as they usually keep on going out to 3-6K, turn and repeat.
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HO = Head On PASS...emphasis on the PASS part. Do not remove the P. ;) Thats my new AH2 interpretation (now I just need to convince about 8000 other guys hehe)
However, if it's just a random encounter and there's a pass, there will be rounds fired at your windshield and engine. I don't care who you are, because if you don't challenge me to a duel and you do a head-on pass, you're getting exactly what you deserve.
This is just silly.....its MY FAULT? You pull the trigger and its MY FAULT? Keep yer grubby little fingers off the trigger for one pass and have a little fun will ya? Are ya skeered you might enjoy yourself? ;)
in a one on one its just a cheap shot.
I dont think so, not after the initial pass. Not in a furball or outnumbered. Its not really a cheap shot at all, my problem with it is that it will probably end the fight immediately for one or both participants. Thats not fun. There may be times that it is deemed necessary, but I'd never say its fun. I do it once in a while too, but cant really say I enjoy it.
Good points made by others above about deflection shots and quarting merges.
My first day in the game I upped a 190A8 and did nothing but HO's. Know what? No one ridiculed me for it, mostly they avoided and then shot me down. They also helped me with lots of advice. None ever said "Stop HOing". This was in 2001 and these were experienced and respected players (Shane was one, another was a 38 driver of some reputation at that time. Cant be sure who it was though.) Point is I was a clueless noob, even more clueless than most, doing what most folks seem to hate the most about noobs and wasn't treated like a noob.
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You need two to tango.. same goes to HO you just cannot do it by your self. No excuses, if you don't want HO like many above said jink dive under etc. you can avoid it and plan the moves after merge.
-jokeri
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Originally posted by jokeri
You need two to tango.. same goes to HO you just cannot do it by your self. No excuses, if you don't want HO like many above said jink dive under etc. you can avoid it and plan the moves after merge.
-jokeri
I agree with jokeri, but some times when youre just looking right at each other I choose to hold the trigger down. :D
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The fact is, it takes two people to engage in the HO
No, this is by far not a fact. In fact, it's completely false. It takes two to merge, one to HO. HO refers to firing into the face of an opponent on the merge. It only takes one to decide to fire on the merge. This is perhaps the most commmon misconception among noobs and relatively inexperienced(think.. 3 years or less) cartoon pilots.
Let's rehash: It takes two to merge, one to HO. It's simple.
Now, that being said, HO's happen and while I am disappointed when I get hit by one(about 1 in 1000 or so is my guess) ultimately it is my responibility to avoid the HO.
Personally, there is an upside to being on the receiving end of a HO attempt. Other than when the opponent is at a significant disadvantage(almost everyone HO's then) when said opponent tries to HO I assume, and am most often correct, that this person is unskilled/untrained in ACM at least to the point where he has no confidence in his ability to maneuver his plane for a shot on mine. An aggressive move by me will either then give me a shot or force said opponent into flee mode(often).
Steve
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The , "Takes two to HO" myth has been around forever. I personally disagree with this. A plane with a significant manueverability advantage either intrinsically or as a result of relative speed can force a HO on an unwilling opponent. For example, this is especially true with vertical HO's where the plane on top is victim to control compression, therefore under intense manueverability restriction and the plane on the bottom has enough E to force a nose to nose 0 degree merge. In this situation the more maueverable plane can force a HO and the other plane cannot avoid it.
Zazen
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I completely agree. I fly the P-38, and I'm often forced into a head-on because I have insufficient energy to avoid it. It takes a lot of energy to avoid a head-on when the other guy's a good shot, especially since the P-38's such a huge target. When I'm fighting a pilot of roughly the same skill as myself, avoiding the head-on when he doesn't usually means losing so much energy that I he gets the upper hand immediately. Small jinks are not enough when the other guy is a good shot. It takes a drastic, energy-eating maneuver. Therefore, a quarter-flip head-on pass is often the less suicidal course, unless I've got at least as much energy as the other guy.
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Originally posted by BlkKnit
This is just silly.....its MY FAULT? You pull the trigger and its MY FAULT? Keep yer grubby little fingers off the trigger for one pass and have a little fun will ya? Are ya skeered you might enjoy yourself? ;)
Yeah, I'm serious. If I don't get a proper challenge, I'm not taking any risks. Too many times I've had random enemies do a head-on pass at first sight and fire at my windshield. Now, a proper challenge would be meeting face to face, but breaking away a few hundred yards before a merge. That's what I do, anyway. No chance of a dreaded HO there.
It's just stupid to take such a risk, really. You wanna go head-on? Fine, but watch out for the bullets on the first pass, pal... And hope that your rudder pedals are working.
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The only time I don't at least try to avoid a HO is when I'm in an a 190 A8 with 30mms still aboard. I figure anyone intentionally flying head on into 30mms gets what he deserves.
-MI-
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Originally posted by Fruda
You wanna go head-on? Fine, but watch out for the bullets on the first pass, pal... And hope that your rudder pedals are working.
Exactly how are you supposed to initiate a merge without setting up a or a near beak to beak pass? It is extremely easy to judge whether the guy is pulling pure lead on your nose. I see it all the time and the thing that kills me is that the other guy is losing any kind of angles advantage to do it. I fly the P-47 a lot, and when I first started using it regularly, I thought, "hey, point those 8 guns at anyone and common sense will mean they try to avoid the HO". FALSE. My favorites are P-51's with a weaker gun package and a water cooled, 1 ping wonder, engine. I can't tell you how many times I get Ponies pulling pure lead on my nose when I'm in a Jug. Regardless of how you feel about HO's, tell me, does that scenario make any kind of sense? I heard one person describe it on 200 as "flip of the coin jousting" and that is all it is. I think there is all the reason in the world to use a HO pass in a defensive situation, but that doesn't mean you have to go to guns as you pull through. You make the pass to take away angles from the bad guy, not joust. But, I'm not going to attempt to regulate others' behavior in this game. If people want to blow their angles advantage by pulling pure lead on my nose, I'll figure a way to slip past, maybe with a few pings/maybe not, and then work for a low deflection shot. Especially if its any of the heavy cannon planes. Unless you're outnumbered and/or defensive, pulling pure lead on the bad guy is a poor choice, even if your personal history has proven it effective. Maybe you've just been fighting the suckers...
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Well over half the players are improving their score if they can take you down with them..even a collision is an improvement to their score if you go down too.
It takes just one to HO, the fact that the better quarter of the players can keep you from getting nothing better than a high angle shot that you won't hit doesn't mean you're not attempting to HO. If you spray enough you get lucky 1 in 20 times. That's still a HO.
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It's not the incidental HO as a result of 2 planes ending up frontal after an intense dogfight, I can live with those. It's also not the HO's after a rope attempt where both planes end up facing each other (one pointing up on the edge of stall with no manoeuvrability left in his plane and one coming out of a hammerhead or wingover with ditto manoeuvrability).
It is the no skill constant zoom, turn, HO, run attempts of players with no imagination whatsoever. ;)
(for their information....a LA7 actually stall turns very very well, prolly even better then a K4)
And I don't care whether it was a legitimate tactic in WWII, in AH it will lead to allot of deaths for anybody living by the HO. Because after having avoided 2-3 silly HO-run attempts, I'm done with it and will return the favour with 30mm (1 30mm hit WILL kill you and I don't miss allot)
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Apar worst thing in game is complaining about how others play. If they ho or suicide or run away its thier choice. But some get on 200 whine your so lucky or u ho'ed me or run forrest run. I will bet you every time you see guy type run run runstang or to that effect, Get on said pilots 6 in slower plane watch what he does. My point about it being in flight manuals, was that every one went for thier advantages. Some guys knew others wouldn't ho and got great deflection shots, This is a game always will be, When these gaMES COST 2 DOLLARS A HOUR TO PLAY, GAME PLAY WAS SAME.
Getting on BBS or 200 or pm a PLAYER trying to shame them into playing your way is just stupid. every good pilot knows that if guy goes for ho. he or she is easy kill. Other night i was il2 i had long term pilots in ah trying to ho my il2 with zero's and f4u's. I don't complain i just shoot back. land kills or die with 4 or 5 kills reup its a game. But I did like the so called vet whinning i ho'ed him when he flew st8 level right at my il2 lol..........I just smiled never said word. Because its a GAME......................... ....................and others can't take thier ball home and end the Game..................
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"To ho? or not to ho?" (again..) Whether tis nobler to cold merge, or .. What light through yon window breaks..
(http://www.vtxpress.com/rv6/dead-horse.gif)
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The HO's don't bug me so much even if I get shot, it's the guys that ram you on purpose while doing it, that tick me off. I figure even as a noob I know how to avoid the HO, so I figure I can't complain too much if I get suckered.
The only time it really bugs me is when I'm out numbered and they still use the cheap shot, because sometimes it's hard to avoid a HO if you are out numbered. However in the case of being out numbered I'm taking any cheap shot I can get.. :D
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I, for one, am not particularly fond of the HO, much like 90% of the folks in this game, but I've come to look at it as a "fact of life". It's gonna happen, why whine about it.
My big problem is when you get some cocky ****, unarguably God's gift in a warbird, that will HO you, take a few rounds, have a collision, then whine because you decided to break right to avoid collision. I guess the majority of people on here are psychic, and would have known that he was going to his left, which after the math, adds up to a nice HO collision. Then he decides to light you up on 200 for being 1 of a thousand insults because you went the wrong way. As if I'm happy that both A/C are fireballing to the ground.
Is there ettiquite on this? Maybe we should say that Knights go right, Rooks go left, and Bish maintain heading? Would that work?
Long write up to make one simple point. EVERYONE is guilty, at some point, of taking a HO shot that could have been avoided, so why the crying about it? You have no right to whine about someone using tactics that you yourself use regularly.
For the record, I think HO's are for those who have no confidence in their ACM abilities.
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I don't care at this point about HO's. I figure I'm gonna get HO'd in a 38. I also know I won't shoot at the first merge.
This sometimes can be a problem of course :)
The other night I was in with two and a N1K came in Cannon's blazing. I went nose to nose and boom, lost most of my left wing and and engine was smoking. He extended 4K before turnining around.
I was barely in the air so for giggles I just pointed myself back his direction. He HO'd again and missed. His buddy in an LA5 then did the same thing and got pings but I was still flying. He then extened 4.5K before reversing and coming back in nose to nose.
In the meantime a Hurri IIC had shown up, so I ruddered my nose towards him. He started HO'ing from 1K out. Understand There is little I can do cause with half a wing I'm going down one way or another when that engine dies. Going straight with little rudder turns into them is all I've got.
The Hurri some how misses and the N1K has now reversed from another 4K extend. He finally gets me. And of course as I'm falling in my usual large amount of pieces, the LA5 comes by and is shooting what's left of me despite my having no tail or wings.
I think that's the main beef many folks have. Learn something besides HO'ing and extending before HO'ing and extending again and again.
It would seem to me that in those circumstances in particular when the numbers are in the other guys favor, that maybe, just maybe they might want to fight it out a bit :)
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Originally posted by DREDger
:cry
Why not just stop tuning 200 if it bugs you that much... ?
Who gives a sheet what some jerk on that other team thinks about your approach?
You make it sound like there is some law that says you must read channel 200.
Screw the punks... Shoot 'em in the face, and don't tune 200.... easy squeezy.
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SkyRock<----owns Kurt!:aok
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If you're not shooting then you're not hoing.
If nobody shoots then it's not a ho, if one shoots then only one is hoing.
That's why it's called merging at the beginning of a duel and not hoing.
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I am not a Myth...
I'm a Mythster!
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Originally posted by SkyRock
SkyRock<----owns Kurt!:aok
Hey, are you complementing my 'Who cares what others think' attitude? -- If so, thank you, you are a prince among men.
or
Are you assuming I'm a Ho-tard?
If its the latter, we can make a D.A. appointment. I'm on most Tuesdays, Fridays and Sundays after 6pm pacific.
You'll probably win, but at least you'll understand I'm not a Ho-tard.
However, in Main arena, I'll shoot anyone in the face if I think I can do it without getting shot... The direction your airplane is pointing is your problem, not mine. :cool:
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Originally posted by Kurt
Hey, are you complementing my 'Who cares what others think' attitude? -- If so, thank you, you are a prince among men.
or
Are you assuming I'm a Ho-tard?
If its the latter, we can make a D.A. appointment. I'm on most Tuesdays, Fridays and Sundays after 6pm pacific.
You'll probably win, but at least you'll understand I'm not a Ho-tard.
However, in Main arena, I'll shoot anyone in the face if I think I can do it without getting shot... The direction your airplane is pointing is your problem, not mine. :cool:
It's good, just catch me on and say DA! I don't think youre a HO tard by the way sir.......................I think you're a HO twit! :aok :D
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Originally posted by Stoney74
Exactly how are you supposed to initiate a merge without setting up a or a near beak to beak pass? It is extremely easy to judge whether the guy is pulling pure lead on your nose. I see it all the time and the thing that kills me is that the other guy is losing any kind of angles advantage to do it. I fly the P-47 a lot, and when I first started using it regularly, I thought, "hey, point those 8 guns at anyone and common sense will mean they try to avoid the HO". FALSE. My favorites are P-51's with a weaker gun package and a water cooled, 1 ping wonder, engine. I can't tell you how many times I get Ponies pulling pure lead on my nose when I'm in a Jug. Regardless of how you feel about HO's, tell me, does that scenario make any kind of sense? I heard one person describe it on 200 as "flip of the coin jousting" and that is all it is. I think there is all the reason in the world to use a HO pass in a defensive situation, but that doesn't mean you have to go to guns as you pull through. You make the pass to take away angles from the bad guy, not joust. But, I'm not going to attempt to regulate others' behavior in this game. If people want to blow their angles advantage by pulling pure lead on my nose, I'll figure a way to slip past, maybe with a few pings/maybe not, and then work for a low deflection shot. Especially if its any of the heavy cannon planes. Unless you're outnumbered and/or defensive, pulling pure lead on the bad guy is a poor choice, even if your personal history has proven it effective. Maybe you've just been fighting the suckers...
1: But, this isn't always the case. I've had run-ins with quite a few people who have feigned breaks and put pull pressure on the rudder just a hundred yards or so in front, and then spray my windshield. So no, it's not always clear.
2: This is true. However, back when I flew in the MA a lot, I never went for my guns on a merge. But, things change, and when you get killed by somebody feigning a break and hosing you with a dozen Hispano shells, you begin to change face on the matter. Most of the time, I won't spray an oncoming pilot --- I'll keep my feet steady on the rudders, and if I see tracers coming my way, I will do my best to roll out. Of course, that doesn't always work...
3: I figure that I've been fighting a lot of unskilled pilots, as the ones who HO me don't really show much in the way of ACM, or furball tactics, for that matter. It seems that all they can do is HO and run.
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Originally posted by Kermit de frog
I smell Noobs.
Why even bother to take a "high deflection" shot when you can play "saddle up" and actually win the fight. I guess some people just want the "kill" and not the "fight". It's their 14.95 blah blah blah egocentric, blah blah blah.:)
Because, in the MA, there are always a bunch of gomers that will clear your target's six, knocking you down in the process. Saddling up works good in a one-on-one situation, but not so good when there are several unengaged enemies out there.
You take whatever shot you are given, and try to be in a position to control the engagement of the other enemy planes when you come out of the first pass.
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Its simple really. The one kill this guy might get this sortie is the one that comes headon so hes gotta spray and wiggle the controls all over the sky and hope the bits and pieces of his airplane and a few cannon rounds hit something soft. :rofl
Oh and you should also be aware that what you see is not always (read: never) what the other guy sees. Then theres the lying ho bastages that say you went headon when in fact you shot him where the sun aint shining. Oops I guees he wasnt seeing what I saw. :D